UKC

The Complete Yorkshire 2000ers. Gragareth?

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 Pete Pozman 25 Dec 2021

I've just made up a ticklist of all Yorkshire Nuttalls. I've decided Gragareth's summit was never in Yorkshire; just off the boundary line. I've included Bush Howe. Any thoughts?

russellcampbell 25 Dec 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Have you looked on the Hillbagging website. It says it is in Lancashire.

OP Pete Pozman 25 Dec 2021
In reply to russellcampbell:

It's the highest point of current Lancashire but in the olden days (pre 1974) the county boundary ran along the ridge and gragareth summit was just off the boundary line and on the Lancashire side. Up to 1974  Coniston Old Man was the highest top in Lancs. 

Post edited at 18:25
russellcampbell 25 Dec 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Sorry if I got it wrong. I don't know the area very well but usually find HillBagging to be reliable.

 Dave Hewitt 25 Dec 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> Up to 1974  Coniston Old Man was the highest top in Lancs. 

A few years ago I heard Stuart Maconie give an interesting talk at the Coniston institute - he's patron of the MRT and it was a fundraiser. At one point he said something like "of course most of you here will know that the Old Man used to be the highest point in Lancashire" - at which, from somewhere in the darkness at the back of the hall, a gruff voice said "Still is".

 Lankyman 25 Dec 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

The highest point of Lancashire is Green Hill a little bit north of Gragareth. It's spot height is 1m higher than the trig on Gragareth if I recall correctly.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> A few years ago I heard Stuart Maconie give an interesting talk at the Coniston institute - he's patron of the MRT and it was a fundraiser. At one point he said something like "of course most of you here will know that the Old Man used to be the highest point in Lancashire" - at which, from somewhere in the darkness at the back of the hall, a gruff voice said "Still is".

Never was. Because Lancashire is a made up colonial imposition by the Normans.

1
 goose299 25 Dec 2021
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

And we’re still better than Yorkshire 

6
In reply to goose299:

I'll grant you that.

3
OP Pete Pozman 25 Dec 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> The highest point of Lancashire is Green Hill a little bit north of Gragareth. It's spot height is 1m higher than the trig on Gragareth if I recall correctly.

On the British Hills app Gragareth is listed as Lancashire's highest top at 628m. The summit is marked by a small cairn 100m away from the trig. Green Hill is given 627.5m. On an old half inch map I have, Gragareth top is wholly within Lancs. So, fine hill though it be, you can have it. Green Hill is on the boundary line. 

 Lankyman 26 Dec 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

I'm just going on OL2 which gives the Gragareth trig point at 627m (no other nearby higher point) and Green Hill spot height at 628m. When you peer closely at the Green Hill spot it's on the Lancashire side of the boundary wall ( grid ref 702820). Are you saying that someone has been up with surveying kit and reassessed the figures? I think this was done nearby on Calf Top to bump it over the 2,000 foot mark. WRT Bush Howe my OL 19 shows the spot height dead on the old Yorkshire/Westmorland boundary.

 cragtyke 26 Dec 2021
In reply to goose299:

You can have Gragareth if you want it, we're quite happy with the other hills and crags that we've got, thanks.

 Godwin 26 Dec 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

I just think its a cracking walk with a good theme. Three counties, taking in a top in all three, with two of them being the highest in the county, and at about 14 miles, a nice length.

 pec 26 Dec 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Gragareth's summit is west of the Yorkshire/Lancashire boundary on current maps and may well always have been, so presumably it is in Lancashire. As far as the Nuttalls are concerned however, it's listed in the book as in the Yorkshire Dales which isn't the same as Yorkshire the county. It does lie within the Yorkshire Dales National Park and geographically it's part of the Dales so presumably it was easier to include it with the Dales 2000ers rather than have a separate chapter.

Regarding Bush Howe, isn't it, and all the other Howgills, in Cumbria? Though again, it's in the yorkshire Dales National Park.

In a similar vein, I think there was some dispute recently over one of the Black Mountains (Brecon Beacons NP) which may or may not actually be in England.

 pec 26 Dec 2021
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> At one point he said something like "of course most of you here will know that the Old Man used to be the highest point in Lancashire" - at which, from somewhere in the darkness at the back of the hall, a gruff voice said "Still is".

A few years ago I walked up Mickle Fell in the Warcop Firing Range, North Pennines. I was telling my Dad I'd been up it and that it had once been the highest point in Yorkshire before boundary changes moved it to Durham. His immediate response was that "if it used to be the highest the point in Yorkshire then it still is".

OP Pete Pozman 26 Dec 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

Hmm...I'm thinking Green Hill maybe should  be classed as a Lancs top. The actual tops of loads of hills are different from the trig point locations. Gragareth trig and real summit are both west of the boundary line,  both historic and current. So it stays off my list.

OP Pete Pozman 26 Dec 2021
In reply to pec:

I've called the hill list the Complete Yorkshire 2000ers to accommodate both current and historic boundaries. The boundary of the West Riding of Yorkshire ran along the Howgills watershed so included/includes The Calf and Bush Howe. Fell Head, Calders and Bram Rigg Top are all well inside the historic boundary. This formed the National Park boundary before that, in its turn, was moved north to include the Westmoreland Dale's.

Yarlside and Randygill Top were always not in Yorkshire. 

 Lankyman 26 Dec 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Putting the NP boundary along the old Yorkshire boundary always struck me as perverse. So much fantastic country was left out simply because it wasn't in Yorkshire. It's better now that the park boundary has been pushed out further to include the northern Howgills and Wild Boar Fell etc.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

> Hmm...I'm thinking Green Hill maybe should  be classed as a Lancs top. The actual tops of loads of hills are different from the trig point locations. Gragareth trig and real summit are both west of the boundary line,  both historic and current. So it stays off my list.

Have you looked at a Harvey's of that area? They have a spot height of 632m east of the boundary. Which is very strange, as you'd expect the OS to at least show a 630m contour if the Harvey's is correct... 

 Ian W 27 Dec 2021
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> A few years ago I heard Stuart Maconie give an interesting talk at the Coniston institute - he's patron of the MRT and it was a fundraiser. At one point he said something like "of course most of you here will know that the Old Man used to be the highest point in Lancashire" - at which, from somewhere in the darkness at the back of the hall, a gruff voice said "Still is".

A map of the area was up on the wall of the Red Rose Cave and Pothole Club hut at Bull Pot Farm up to the mid eighties at least, that had been drawn very carefully and expertly to show that after the boundary changes, said club hut was actually in Yorkshire. Several members were ever so slightly apoplectic with rage at the thought, and one of the more traditionally minded members, who didn't seem to accept that the war of the roses had ever ended, actually resigned from the club until he received a written apology from the perpetrators of the crime.......

Post edited at 00:26
 Lankyman 27 Dec 2021
In reply to Ian W:

Bullpot Farm was always in Westmorland (before Cumbria was invented) so not really sure why they'd be up in arms? Unless they really were anti-Yorkshire. Did they used to turn back underground when in the Three Counties system?

 Dave Hewitt 27 Dec 2021
In reply to Ian W:

> one of the more traditionally minded members, who didn't seem to accept that the war of the roses had ever ended, actually resigned from the club

I've been for a drink in the pub in this confusing place - one of my sisters lives fairly close to it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York,_Lancashire

 Ian W 27 Dec 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> Bullpot Farm was always in Westmorland (before Cumbria was invented) so not really sure why they'd be up in arms? Unless they really were anti-Yorkshire. Did they used to turn back underground when in the Three Counties system?


Oh, everyone was fully aware that it hadn't been in Lancashire for many many years (late 1800's?) That wasn't important; what was importan to them was that it wasn't in Yorkshire.

 Lankyman 27 Dec 2021
In reply to Ian W:

> Oh, everyone was fully aware that it hadn't been in Lancashire for many many years (late 1800's?) That wasn't important; what was importan to them was that it wasn't in Yorkshire.

Are you sure it ever was in Lancashire? I've always assumed that the wedge of Lancashire that runs up to the County Stone on Great Coum has always been like that. In other words the Lancashire/Westmorland boundary running down Easegill Beck with the farm firmly in Westmorland.

OP Pete Pozman 27 Dec 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> Are you sure it ever was in Lancashire? I've always assumed that the wedge of Lancashire that runs up to the County Stone on Great Coum has always been like that. In other words the Lancashire/Westmorland boundary running down Easegill Beck with the farm firmly in Westmorland.

On my Bartholomews half inch map of 1964 you are right. Bull Pot is/was in Westmoreland.

I hadn't realised that Whernside's Yorkshire identity had been compromised by the Cumbria land grab; (and Great Knoughtberry Hill's also.) This would make Ingleborough the highest top wholly within the current Yorkshire ! In my opinion "Cumbria " has enough hills. 

Post edited at 15:18
 Ian W 27 Dec 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> Are you sure it ever was in Lancashire? I've always assumed that the wedge of Lancashire that runs up to the County Stone on Great Coum has always been like that. In other words the Lancashire/Westmorland boundary running down Easegill Beck with the farm firmly in Westmorland.

You are probably right; westmorland has been around since medieval times,

https://www.cumbriacountyhistory.org.uk/sites/default/files/Casterton-final...

but the point of the "map" was to show the Red Rose hut as being in yorkshire. It worked a treat.......

 Lankyman 28 Dec 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Out of interest, Pete how many Nuttalls are there in Yorkshire? I think I've walked over pretty well every 2,000 foot bump in the old county apart from some obscure ones that are probably now in Durham.

 Lankyman 28 Dec 2021
In reply to Ian W:

> but the point of the "map" was to show the Red Rose hut as being in yorkshire. It worked a treat.......

I've stayed at Bullpot a few times but don't recall the map (probably too half cut from a spell in the Kirkby Lonsdale pubs). I can imagine being 'transferred' into Yorkshire might be traumatic for the diehard Lancastrian. I know actual intercounty transfers caused real heartache back in 1974. It's amazing how large the old Yorkshire was. It almost spanned the country getting very close to Lancaster at the Trough of Bowland.

 Fat Bumbly2 28 Dec 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

I have heard that the Cumbria council area is due to be split into two new authorities 

OP Pete Pozman 28 Dec 2021
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> I have heard that the Cumbria council area is due to be split into two new authorities 

Let me guess: I'll bet one is called Rheged.

 Andy Hardy 29 Dec 2021
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> Never was. Because Lancashire is a made up colonial imposition by the Normans.

Fcuk me, just how long do you bear grudges for? 😉

 Lankyman 29 Dec 2021
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> I have heard that the Cumbria council area is due to be split into two new authorities 

Does that mean the county will cease to be? South Lakeland and the other Cumbria districts will be binned as well I suppose.

 Dave Hewitt 29 Dec 2021
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> I have heard that the Cumbria council area is due to be split into two new authorities 

https://www.lgcplus.com/politics/governance-and-structure/names-of-two-new-...

OP Pete Pozman 29 Dec 2021
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Hmm, so Cumberland and Westmorland are back. Not Rheged then. 

 Lankyman 29 Dec 2021
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

That's interesting. Do you know where the boundaries run? There's still a chunk of old Lancashire to be won back from 'Westmorland'.

 Dave Hewitt 29 Dec 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> Do you know where the boundaries run?

Dunno, sorry - I'm a bit out of touch with Cumbrian etc matters. The better half is a Coniston girl but what with deceased parents and Covid restrictions we've not been down since 2019. These days I just tend to look at MRT reports and Tony Richards' daily pictures and dream of Wetherlam.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I blame the Norman conquest for all our ills today. The redistribution of power, wealth, and opportunity from the poor to the rich that ails us today began with the Normans. It wasn't a normal takeover where one set of warlord landowners replaces another. It was a massive concentration power, wealth, and opportunity, into the hands of a few individuals who continued to speak French to set themselves above those they had impoverished, and they still never have integrated.

Most of the counties are based on old dark age kingdoms and sub kingdoms but Lancashire was formed from a huge grant of land given by the king to one individual, Roger de Poitou, who had assisted in the Norman invasion of Cumbria that took place in 1092. 

On the topic I would say include Gragareth because it has it's footings in the modern county of North Yorkshire and it's a nice ridge to follow but you can only claim it for the list if you've gone up from the Yorkshire side. Bush Howe as well.

In reply to Lankyman:

> That's interesting. Do you know where the boundaries run? There's still a chunk of old Lancashire to be won back from 'Westmorland'.

I like Lancashire, nice place, good people some of whom I regularly go fellwalking with, but I find it ironic to hear Lancastrians harking back to the "old" counties when Cumbria has been a concept since Roman times but the idea of Lancashire only came into being in 1182 as the original administrative unit.

The new boundaries are going to be the existing district boundaries so Westmorland and Furness will be composed of Eden, S Lakes, and Barrow.

Perked up when I saw this thread title.  Only discovered Gragareth on moving to Caton (just east of Lancaster) a few years ago.  What a great run/walk it makes going in a loop from the Kingsdale road past Tow Scar, onto the Turbary road then to the trig past the Turbary Pasture.  The rolling grassy track of the Turbary Road, past the potholes, is a great warmer for older joints and similarly the soft-on-the-knees fantastic grassy descent south west down the ridge before picking up the ascent route. 

A great antidote to the hardened surface of the Three Peaks popular routes, though as a consequence wet feet, in trainers, are virtually guaranteed, even in summer conditions.

Sorry for the off topic diversion but couldn't resist a thumbs up for the hill. 

OP Pete Pozman 04 Jan 2022
In reply to Lankyman:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/set.php?id=5551

Gerronit Lancs man! You can be the second to tick 'em all.

Though Gragareth top isn't within either the historic or new Yorkshire boundary one would be a mug not to make a proper day of it and do all the tops round to Crag Hill .


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