UKC

Day 2/(7)/10 so I have resorted to looking at kit....I think I held out long enough.

I follow a few of the MCIs who post on here quite regularly and think back to my ML/Gold DofE days when my bronze bag was a 75l ruck sack and the sleeping bag took up 3/4 of the bag and weighed just under what my bed weighed. I think I still have the scars on my shoulders from the weight of my gold bag!

Fast forward to my ML in 2006, I had a bit more money, but the bag remained a similar size for a 3/4 day exped...

So...having seen a few tips like, carry no more than 1ltr of water and a filter, jetboil v pocket rocket arguments, the list goes on....what is the ultimate 2/3 day exped equipment and can we keep it under 5kg to save on the knees?

Lets say if money was no object what would you go for, or if money was an object where would you chop and change things?

Im currently looking at the following I am sure there will be stuff I have forgotten, this is off the top of my head:

Cooking: Alpkit Titanium 900ml pot, pocket rocket and small gas canister, flint and jetboil stabiliser, Sawyer water filter, titanium spork 

Sleeping: Exped SynMat HL LW Mat. Alpkit SkyeHigh 500 sleeping bag, Nordisk Telemark 2 Tent. Group shelter.

Navigation: Petzl Nao+ Head torch and Tikka as a back up. Compass and spare, laminated maps of area operating in rather than whole. (GPS on watch as back up, phone not getting into that argument...but its there)

Clothing: Waterproof top and bottoms, warm jacket (nano puff jacket) gloves and spares, spare underwear etc...usual

Food:  Firepot is probably what I will look at...im not one who has the patience to cook my own.

Water: Nalgene 500 or 1ltr

Safety: First aid kit, Blizzard bag

Unnecessary comforts: Aeropress? Charging pack for phone, headphones

In reply to SebCa:

What time of year? Has quite an impact on weight for me.

I think your list is good - what weights are you getting?

for some stuff - eg group shelter - is that shared or individual?

In reply to Dr.S at work:

Lets say April to late September! So not horrendously cold, but down to single figures...

I have the majority of the above list but its also partly a wish list so not been able to cobble to all together but its through research and reading I have come to that lot...

Lets say everything is on you to carry, just to stretch the legs of the possible a bit

In reply to SebCa:

If it's just you rather than a pair go with the 650ml titanium mug. 

Stovewise I've gone homemade meths or look at the likes of speedster stoves. Obvious advantage is that you're not carrying empty canisters.

If I have tent and sleeping bag I'd ditch the group shelter.

Water, 500ml soft flask or soft drinks bottle.

Not sure why you'd need tent etc+group shelter+ blizzard bag but opinions will vary on that.

Unnecessary comforts, Taylor's Hot Lava Java coffee bags are an acceptable compromise for the lightweight addict.

Summer I'd usually only take one headtorch and if I need a back up it would be an e-lite. 

In reply to SebCa:

And bag?

Ive got my base weight for that time of year to about 6kg, including a few luxuries - not very dissimilar to your list:

MH scrambler 35RT

TN photon

PHD minimus 300

exped folding matt

little primus  gas stove and ever new 900ml pan

Less spares than you - just one head torch (bindi) one compass/map. 

In reply to SebCa:

Ditch the spare underwear.

In reply to SebCa:

I use this:

https://speedsterstoves.co.uk/combined-windscreen-pot-rest-for-alpkit-mytim...

In combination with this:

https://speedsterstoves.co.uk/burners/speedster-carbon-meths/alcohol-burrne...

and an Alpkit 650ml mug.

It's very light and compact and I like the fact that it's less wasteful than gas canisters. It will boil a full mug in about 8 mins on about 25ml of fuel. Some people dislike how slow meths is but I wonder what they're doing at an overnight camp which means an extra 5 minutes waiting on your dinner is critical!

In reply to DaveHK:

Some valid points there to be fair Dave on the group shelter point, I know it was from the group leaders point of view as being able to quickly throw up a shelter if things went pear shaped first aid etc...can see the arguments but if we are going fast and light, then we have shelter in the form of a tent!

I like the coffee bags idea though! saves a massive faff with the aeropress and space!

I have an e-lite, you are quite right! we have almost only 6-7 hours of darkness, so plenty of light to make progress in!

In reply to DrS

Thats a good list! I had no looked at the TN Photon, I know opinions vary on the telemark due to condensation. Have you had any issues with the TNP? Do you have the 1 or the 2 man?

Bag wise, I have the Patagonia Ascensionist L/XL which I think is 40ltr so similar size to the MH

In reply to Robert:

In minimalist terms I agree....preventing crotch rot though on the warmer days....a balance!

In reply to SebCa:

Here: https://lighterpack.com/r/h34nqa is the kit list of a guy who did the Tour du Mont Blanc out of season last year (during  French lockdown?) which might give you some ideas.

His video story of his trip is great, if anyone can post a link to it, please!

In reply to SebCa:

For one night trips we've taken to ditching the stove etc.  Saves a fair bit of weight.   

In reply to Maggot:

Even taking the camera kit out of that he's still 9kg base weight and there's a whole heap of extras in there. Not exactly everything and the kitchen sink but not exactly ultralight! We were probably about 5kg each on the TMB, admittedly in high summer.

In reply to SebCa:

These guys are good if you want to flash the cash, the sort by weight option is particularly helpful for the weight weenie:

https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/

And if you haven't done so already have a look at Mountain Marathon articles and packing lists. You don't need to go all the way down the MM rabbit hole but there's definitely a lot to be learned.

In reply to Maggot:

If you carry a tent, you don't need a Blizzard Bag.  

I use a 1.5l Nalgene, but then I often camp up high where there's no water.  I also take a 0.8l bottle for diluted cordial drink for on the go.

I hate sporks (remind me of kid's cutlery), so I use an Alpkit titanium knife and spoon.  

If the forecast is good, or if it's very cold, I don't take waterproofs.  

I love my Primus ETA solo/Lite stove - it's simple, quick to boil water and very windproof.  I also take a titanium 600ml mug.

I like Summit 2 Eat meals.  They're about £3.75 each from Millets (if you buy two).

I'm often carrying two axes and crampons, so that extra weight has to be saved elsewhere.  

My multi-day pack is very comfortable, but isn't the lightest.  It's a Haglofs Matrix 60.  Carrying comfort wins through

Are you taking a group shelter as well?  That's not necessary.

Spare compass?  I wouldn't bother!

In reply to Dave: Thanks Dave, I have seen the ultralight website, they're pretty good aren't they! Its not all about throwing money at the problem really its just more to make it work. Your meths stoves are a prime example of that, for the cost they are an absolute bargain and weigh next to nothing! I will look a bit deeper into those! Time wise you are right, the pot could be on whilst the tent goes up!

In reply to Maggot: Its a really good comprehensive list and certainly is a good break down of weight, but I have to agree with Dave, the kitchen sink is the only thing missing! His bag alone is almost 2.5kg! Its interesting to see what people will do though and the whole point of this thread to create the discussion!

In reply to Fiona: do you just do cold food? I presume you do? I suppose for the really warm nights I could agree with that and slum it for an overnighter, if I was doing 2 days or it was colder I would want the hot meal/drink option. But its a thought. I think when I weighed my Pocket Rocket, titanium pot and gas it came in at just over 400g...the jetboil was almost 700g...suppose it depends on your set up, looking at Daves set up of meths, bar having to carry the fuel bottle, that could go even lighter!

In reply to weejamie: You are not the first to say ditch some of the extra safety stuff, its a valid point, its not that we are not carrying it, we have a solution to use if needs be! Spare compass, yeah agreed..

In reply to SebCa:

Usually when I read what people are carrying when they say their bag is 5kg or whatever I think to myself "I'd be cold and hungry with that set up!"

I'm definitely a fan of a lighter bag, but I'm a big fan of being comfortable too and we all have our acceptable limits!

In reply to jezb1:

Its your videos that prompted me looking at what I carry (I'm on a computer so can't do a laughing emoji!)...hence the jetboil v titanium pot discussion.... but I also remember your point about being cold, keep up the videos they're a great resource and enjoy Spain!

In reply to SebCa:

if there's more than one of you you don't need spare torches. If you're on your own you can use the light on your phone if your torch dies.  Same goes for compass, use the one on your phone as a spare. If you have a tent you don't need blizzard or bothy bags for survival purposes, although a bothy bag could be useful for lunch / nav stop in appalling weather - I'd only carry that if conditions dictate its usefulness, and only in a group situation.

If you don't need a fork to eat with then a titanium spoon will be lighter than a spork. Indeed, can you eliminate the spoon entirely by eating food that doesn't need stirring in a pot and simply pour the water into the bag, squelch it round, then pour the food into your mouth once 'cooked'?

Replace all the accessory string/cord in your kit with thinner and lighter dyneema. Don't take tent bags.

Personally, I don't really care if my bag is 5 or 10 kilos as it makes virtually no difference to my walking. If I were scrambling then yes, I'd want to reduce the weight (and bulk).

In reply to SebCa:

Going ultralight is (IMO) all about context: When, where, who (solo or group) and weather etc.,

Based on my experience of countless MMs and some bikepacking, assuming summer(ish) and a 'few' days, I'd favour a light bivvy bag (or tarp) over tent (unless the weather was expected bad), no water filter (unless you KNOW the water is dodgy, and I wouldn't aim to carry water at all - it's heavy), one small headtorch (if you don't trust it for a couple of nights then you have the wrong torch), no blizzard bag (unless you REALLY think you might get caught in a blizzard in summer). Wouldn't bother with BOTH map/compass and GPS - use the one you trust. I've never much liked laminated maps - they're awkward to handle - I'd just use a waterproof one in the first place (e.g., Harveys in the UK). Certainly no Aeropress, charging pack, headphones. Also don't overdo the clothing: Do you really need a 'warm jacket' in the summer? I've never taken one outside of winter. Focus on clothing that's 'warm-when-damp' for during the day (I assume I'll always be moving during the day) and a base layer change for overnight or emergencies. I've rarely bothered with 'proper' (e.g., Goretex) waterproofs - unnecessary during the day (unless the weather is so bad that I would bother going anyway). Again, weather forecast will dictate how far you go with paring down clothes. I'd expect to manage for a few days with a 30-35L bag. Anything above that would (IMO) count as 'luxuries' - you'll have to judge which luxuries are worth the extra weight/bulk. I guess it also depends on whether you are going 'light-but-lazy' or 'fast-and-light'. For me 'ULTRAlight' implies prioritizing light-weight over comfort, speed/distance over sightseeing (else why bother). YMMV.

In reply to SebCa:

Tomorrow night I'm hooking up with a mate to try something completely different out, this one is for the wild trip climbers and Cuillinists.

He uses a light rack to make 2 anchors and hangs a light hammock up with a very light tarp over it. Now a rack isn't light but if it's in the bag anyway then it can be double use. He's used it with us on a 2 day trek on the Cornish coast and shockingly he found it much easier to get a spot than we did. He is going to try this system out on the Cuillin ridge with us.

In reply to SebCa:

I’ve got the photon laser 1 - I think all of these tents suffer from condensation, it’s just par for the course. 
 

I’ve made a polycro footprint which is very light and provides some reassurance.
 

Also for this type of tent - don’t scrimp on pegs - my peg collection is usually about 100g of various types

In reply to SebCa:

Yup, 6 mini pork pies each and half a 100gr bar of chocolate each seems to work well for one night out.

Plus also carrying breakfast (malt loaf each or a large chunk of stollen at this time of year), 2 days lunch and hill snacks. This stuff would be the same whether or not I had the stove.

In reply to SebCa:

Meths works out lighter than gas, for many reasons. A (home made) caldera clone and red bull conic stove with an Alpkit MyTiPot is my system of choice. Clone weighs 37g, burner 7g. A small bottle of meths allows you to take only what you need.

In reply to captain paranoia: but isn't especially hot burning, so sometimes you have to prioritise. 

 Personally I've been using a MH Direkt 2 tent for some years, ME Xero sleeping bag, and  a smaller inflatable mat.  Works well, and total around 2kg. 

What's your total pack weight.. I didn't see it mentioned? 

In reply to captain paranoia:

Only for short trips, you'll need more meths than gas per day. At some point the weight of extra meths will exceed the weight of the gas canister. It's usually after four days that things equal out.  

In reply to OwenM:

I used to think that, but then I made some detailed measurements. It really doesn't. Those canisters are heavy...

Meths also gets lighter each day, as you use more...

I'd point you to the thread on Outdoors Magic with the numbers and figures, but the entire forum has been deleted...

In reply to wbo2:

I only obsess about certain things. Especially things I can make...

In reply to Fiona Reid:

I've done the same, but I wonder... How does (for example) 6 pork pies compare in weight with some dehydrated food plus the means to rehydrate (I assume the water is not carried, but needs to be heated for the rehydration to work efficiently)? Or is there food you can rehydrate with cold water? Or ingest in the dry state (and drink lots of water)? Or are pork pies - despite their weight -  the optimum solution (for non-vegetarians)?

In reply to SebCa:

Don't bother with the firepot meals, they're shite.

Much better to get some flavoured cous cous, a small pot of tuna (plastic john west ones are sensible weight) or Chorizo sauge, sachet of dolmio tomato sauce. Much cheaper, actually edible and you don't need to make a special trip out to get your food for the trip as it's all available from a supermarket.

Boil the water for the cous cous with the sauce sachet in the pot, pour water over cous cous enough to cover it, use remaining water to make up hot chocolate/ tea as preferred.

Breakfast - Porridge (Flahavan's works for this) mixed with dried fruit, pour boiling water over to cover it and mix it up with a spoon.

In reply to SebC

Alpkit titanium mug Coleman c100 canister and lightweight screw on burner comes to less than 300g and is fine for a couple if nights out in summer. And a lot quicker and less messy than meths.

In reply to SebCa:

Weight vs comfort is always going to be a balance. You could have a base weight of 0g and be miserable, if you want to go super light...

You could go stoveless and save some weight but I like my porridge, tea and hot evening meal. I used a trail designs cone and alcohol stove, which is probably lighter than a gas stove over a couple of days.

If you've got a good mat then go with a quilt rather than a sleeping bag. Saves 30% of weight and bulk. 

My reasonably refined 3 season set up main items are:

Enlightened equipment quilt

Thermarest yellow crisp packet pad

Tarptent  Notch

Hyperlite MG Windrider

If you can't comfortably wear all your clothes at the same time, you're carrying too much (bar a spare pair of socks).

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

For a time I used a very light, ripstop nylon hammock in caves, railway side tunnels etc for climbing weekends. It was quite cold since it compressed all the down on the underneath and sides of my sleeping bag and I ended up using a karrimat in it.

Stating the obvious but if you have the relevant information about an area you can sometimes avoid the need to take any form of shelter, be more comfortable, and eg a cave won't blow down. More restricting as will determine where one stops for the night.

For a time I also used a large 4x8ft thick gauge polybag. Quick to set up and cheap. If weather Ok used it just as a ground sheet. I had sleeping inside it worked out by folding it  back round entrance to prevent drips running inside, forming front into a cowl to prevent rain ingress, propping bag in entrance to maintain good ventilation. I managed to cook inside it by sitting upright as a "pole" above the stove, Room enough to dress etc and again could never blow down. Even after a weekend of poor weather it was slightly damp rather than wet.   However i imagine some modern tents may be almost as light and much more comfortable.

In reply to Marek:

Sorry for the delayed reply. I needed to wait till I was home to weigh the jetboil etc...

Breakfast & dinner for one day: 6 mini pork pies = 330g, 50gr chocolate, 220g malt loaf, that's 600g per person per day. 

I'm ignoring lunch etc as that would be the same regardless of whether the stove came along. 

Our jetboil flash plus gas canister plus plastic tub to put cous etc in and eat from weighs about 750g. 

Flavored cous cous (3 packets) plus a chorizo comes to 500g between us or 250g each plus a malt loaf for breakfast = 250+220=470g per person.

So with the stove for one person that's 1220g for one night versus 600g without. For 2 it's 1200g without the stove or 1690g with.

Sure,  the malt loaf could be swapped for a large flapjack or maybe porridge instead which would reduce the weight a little but it depends on what you like to eat. Having a lighter stove would help too.

Obviously for more nights out you'd likely start to save weight with the stove and dried stuff especially if there's 2 of you.