UKC

How crazy would I need to be to buy an EV with no home charger?

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I'm in the market for a second hand car in the £10-15k range.  I live in flats and have a space in the common garage but the only way I could charge an EV there would be by persuading the other residents and management company to put in a charger and that could be a bit of a project.  There's no practical way to get a cable from my flat to anywhere I could park the car without getting a ticket.

However, I do very little mileage.  Probably about 50 miles most weeks so I guess a full battery will last quite a while.  And I live in the centre of town so there's maybe 3 or 4 public charge points within about half a km.  And there's a public charger very near Eden Rock where it's likely to spend a couple of hours parked twice a week.

So, if I got a 5 or 6 year old Leaf with a 24kW battery how much hassle would it be to keep it charged just using public chargers?  How long would it need to be plugged in on a 7kW charger to get a weekly top up?

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 ianstevens 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

In true UKC fashion, an alternative question: in a typical week, what’s the longest trip you do, on what type of roads? If it’s short and in the city bike/e-bike could be a better solution than a car. Substantially cheaper to buy, run and maintain, plus exercise, zero/low emissions. Can always be supplemented with car hire for trips away.

Depend on your use case entirely of course, but if most of your travel is regular short trips… get a bike  

8
In reply to ianstevens:

> In true UKC fashion, an alternative question: in a typical week, what’s the longest trip you do, on what type of roads? If it’s short and in the city bike/e-bike could be a better solution than a car. Substantially cheaper to buy, run and maintain, plus exercise, zero/low emissions. Can always be supplemented with car hire for trips away.

I'd rather not find out my wife's reaction to being told she's not getting a car, she's getting a bike with a trailer for the food shopping.

> Depend on your use case entirely of course, but if most of your travel is regular short trips… get a bike  

The use case is family food shopping once a week, two or three trips a week to climbing walls which are a major nuisance to get to on public transport and occasional other errands about town. 

It would be nice if it was good to go munro bagging or Edinburgh to Kyloe or Dumbarton but it isn't something I do often so it's not a requirement. Similarly it would be nice if it could hold a couple of boulder pads but it isn't a requirement.

Also, I'm looking for something relatively cheap, low insurance group but not a tiny city car with low impact protection since the idea is to insure it so my daughter can drive it too.

Post edited at 06:42
 girlymonkey 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

We used a local charge point for a while before we got our home one fitted. We do more mileage than you will be so charged pretty much every evening. It was fine, and with your usage I would think no bother at all. Might also be good to start the conversation about getting chargers in the common garage, more and more people will start to need them. 

Make sure you have your charge place Scotland card first though as the app is rubbish. If public chargers are your only option then the card is essential. It can be alarmingly slow to come through sometimes, no one really seems to know why!

 S Ramsay 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

If you are only doing 50 miles a week it doesn't make s huge amount of sense from an environmental perspective you buying an electric car. With the current grid mix most studies conclude that an electric car has about half the carbon footprint over its total life, normally estimated at about 120,000 miles, compared to the equivalent ICE car but with a much greater percentage of that in the manufacturing stage. Therefore, of you are only driving 2500 miles per year it could be many years/over a decade before the electric car has a lower overall environmental footprint than running your current or if that dies, swapping if for 2nd had small petrol cars. Additionally, at the moment most electric car manufacturers are struggling to meet demand and therefore if you do buy one it is arguable that you are probably delaying someone else with a much higher annual mileage than you purchasing one whose environmental footprint would decrease much faster than yours if they went electric. I am in a not dissimilar position to you and can't see it making environmental or economic sense to buy one instead of just focusing on reducing my total mileage. After all, if you did buy one, to justify the high upfront cost you could find yourself increasing your total mileage and therefore negating any possible environmental benefit

2
In reply to S Ramsay:

I'm looking at three possible options:

a. spend some money fixing up my current car which is 17 year old M class Mercedes SUV diesel knowing that it's going to get banned where I live and I'll need to get rid of it in a year or two anyway.

b. buy a 5 year old VW Polo (or similar) for about £10K

c. buy a 5 year old Nissan Leaf (or similar) for about 15K

The obvious sensible option is the Polo, but the Leaf would be more interesting.

 Neil Williams 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Not worth spending money on a 17 year old car unless you are going to pour money into it as per a classic.

Re charging an EV, if the supermarket has chargers this would be an ideal time?

1
 minimike 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Some supermarkets have rapids but a lot just have 7kw which is fairly useless for a shopping trip duration. Luckily I live 100 yards away and can leave it there overnight.. but demand for that ‘service’ is rising!

 summo 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

It's quite feasible, depending how competitive it is to get parked at those charging points.

Whilst at the same time you start up the pressure with the housing association or factors. Ev charging isn't going to disappear, they'll have to deal with it eventually. There could be other residents thinking the same and having ev charge points likely adds value to property at present, in 10 years it will be a big negative not to have it.

 Hooo 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Is that how much a 5 year old Leaf goes for nowadays!?

I bought a 3 year old Leaf 30 a year and a half ago for £9500. 24kWh ones were going for under £7k.

I have to say that I find public changing a real pain and I try and avoid it, but I'm down south and I hear it's a lot better in Scotland.

Bear in mind that most Leafs come with a 3.5kW charger, the 6.5kW was an expensive option. So a full charge on a slow charger will take a good 7 hours. 

 ianstevens 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> I'd rather not find out my wife's reaction to being told she's not getting a car, she's getting a bike with a trailer for the food shopping.

Maybe she'll be happy, you never know! You'd be surprised how much shopping you can fit on a bike with a basket on the front and a rack on the back.

> The use case is family food shopping once a week, two or three trips a week to climbing walls which are a major nuisance to get to on public transport and occasional other errands about town. 

Honestly I would buy a bike for this myself. Obviously I have no knowledge of public transport options or how safe cycling is to the walls of course. And maybe my view is a little blurred by the fact I live in a city which is insanely good for cycling in, and has superb public transport.

> It would be nice if it was good to go munro bagging or Edinburgh to Kyloe or Dumbarton but it isn't something I do often so it's not a requirement. Similarly it would be nice if it could hold a couple of boulder pads but it isn't a requirement.

> Also, I'm looking for something relatively cheap, low insurance group but not a tiny city car with low impact protection since the idea is to insure it so my daughter can drive it too.

To actually answer your question, if you can charge it at the wall/supermarket then it seems like it would work out well. I sometimes use car-share Renault Zoes for Ikea trips and the like, and they can get ample charge in them in a couple of hours, which I guess is what you'd spend at the wall. (Also a nice little city-ish car which would hold 2 people and pads fine).

Post edited at 09:01
 ianstevens 20 Jan 2022
In reply to S Ramsay:

Environmental impact isn't just CO2 though. Particulates are a big issue in cities, and electric cars have markedly less than ICE cars. 

Post edited at 09:23
 Jamie Wakeham 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

The actual maths is straightforward: a leaf will do around 4 miles per kWh.  For 50 miles you need 12.5kWh.

So you need about 5.5 hours a week if you're using a 2.3kW 'granny' charger.  3.6 hours a week if you have a 3.5kW charger.  1.8 hours a week if you have a 7kW charger (but it looks like the Leaf needs some sort of onboard upgrade to accept this rate).

Or 35 minutes on a 22kW fast charger (again not sure if all Leafs can take this).  

It looks like it'll take around 40 kW off a rapid CHAdeMO, as long s the state of charge is below 80%, so you'd be looking at less than 20 minutes, but you probably don't want to make that high rate your standard charging method.

A quick look suggests there are quite a few chargers within a  few hundred metres of Eden Rock, so I would have thought you'd manage just fine with that.

 Sealwife 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

A colleague (in Orkney) and a friend (in central Aberdeen) both have had EVs for years with no household charger.

Neither do a massive amount of daily miles so it works well for them.

The Orkney one uses a rapid charger opposite the supermarket about once a week.  She plugs in, nips to Tesco, comes back and if cars not finished charging she’ll hop in and read a chapter of her book until it’s done.

The Aberdeen friend has a charger a few blocks away from her home.  She parks up, takes her dog for a walk, then heads back when car is charged.

Mr S has a new EV, whilst we have a home charger, it’s set up for chadamo (my car) and his is CCS, so we’d need an adapter for it to work with both.  We have not bothered getting one as his car has a much larger range than mine so he uses a similar arrangement to my colleague above.  On the rare occasion he hasn’t been organised enough to do it, he runs a granny cable out the garage window to his car - this has only happened a couple of times.

 Neil Williams 20 Jan 2022
In reply to ianstevens:

> Environmental impact is just CO2 though. Particulates are a big issue in cities, and electric cars have markedly less than ICE cars. 

It's a bit more complex than that, e.g. the effects of lithium mining and disposal.  But it is true that a significant reduction of particulates in cities is the biggest environmental benefit and arguably the most important in the short term at least, with CO2 second and everything else trailing a bit behind.

 ianstevens 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Oh I agree, I just was avoiding writing an essay I have no idea why anyone would buy an ICE car these days IF they can afford an electric one. 

4
 Neil Williams 20 Jan 2022
In reply to ianstevens:

> Oh I agree, I just was avoiding writing an essay I have no idea why anyone would buy an ICE car these days IF they can afford an electric one.

"Afford" is relative.  I think if I had to change now (e.g. because I wrote my current car off) I would go for one more petrol or petrol PHEV (but definitely not diesel).  I am however pretty convinced that my next planned change in 1-2 years' time will be to electric.  It's very much at a tipping point at the moment, because there isn't much of a used market yet unless you like Nissan Leafs (I don't, I want a large estate or an SUV) and I don't think buying new is a good use of money, I usually buy between 2.5 and 3 years old.

Could I afford an EV today?  Yes, probably.  Would I consider it a prudent financial choice?  Not quite yet, I don't think buying a new car is a prudent financial choice for me personally.

Post edited at 09:31
 girlymonkey 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Sealwife:

You have a home rapid charger?! I didn't think that was an option! That's pretty cool, we just have the standard 7kw charger. That is quick enough for us though as we tend to be home long enough to charge on that.

 Neil Williams 20 Jan 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

> You have a home rapid charger?! I didn't think that was an option! That's pretty cool, we just have the standard 7kw charger. That is quick enough for us though as we tend to be home long enough to charge on that.

A 13A socket would be enough for most home applications as you can just plug in every night as you do with your phone.

 girlymonkey 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

We could do it with the granny, but constantly running cables in through windows is a hassle and you have to get a way of waterproofing the plug for the extension. We do it sometimes when we need to at someone else's house, but at home the dedicated charger is easiest. Also, having a teeny weeny battery does mean that we need to charge for a few hours during the day sometimes too, so do need it a wee bit quicker than the granny really (although we could swing by a rapid instead if we couldn't get enough at home, so not the end of the world). 

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Thanks for all the great advice! 

It really does look like an option, there's a few free 7kW chargers near Holyrood Park so maybe its as simple as leaving it there while I go for my walk a couple of times a week.

In reply to Hooo:

> Is that how much a 5 year old Leaf goes for nowadays!?

Probably not, I'm just browsing on Nissan and Cinch, obviously it depends on the model and mileage as well as the year, not got to the point of trying to find the cheapest option yet.

> I bought a 3 year old Leaf 30 a year and a half ago for £9500. 24kWh ones were going for under £7k.

> Bear in mind that most Leafs come with a 3.5kW charger, the 6.5kW was an expensive option. So a full charge on a slow charger will take a good 7 hours. 

I'll need to be careful about that!  The public chargers near me seem to be 7kW and it would be a shame not to get the benefit.

 Sealwife 20 Jan 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

No!  I don’t have a home rapid charger.  I have a Zappi.  It has a tethered cable so it can only be used with chadamo cars unless I get an adapter for the plug.

Its a pretty cool bit of kit.  It has three modes, Fast, which is quicker than a granny cable but nothing like a rapid.  Eco which will divert any excess from my solar panels and send a blend of my own solar generation and power from the grid to my car or Eco Plus which uses solar only.  There is also a setting where I can set for Eco Plus with a boost of grid power by presetting a departure time and a min %charge I require. Have to admit that I’ve never tried to use that one - I tend to go with looking at the sky and thinking about what my car related needs are and swapping the mode manually 

In reply to Neil Williams:

> A 13A socket would be enough for most home applications as you can just plug in every night as you do with your phone.

Probably for a lot. However, I understand it is not recommended for anything other than very occasional use unless you install a separately wired socket back to the consumer unit so it’s independent of other appliances.

I spoke to my electrician, when he was doing work for me, who runs a business BEV van and installs chargers for BEVs, and he says any charging circuit should be independent for safety. He said to use an existing 13 A socket, the route of wiring is important sometimes (can over heat if running through heavily insulted area for example), the other loads and their duration on the same circuit, and various other things needs to be taken into account. Also, it’s not like just turning on a kettle for say 3 mins; a BEV can be plugged in and drawing power for possibly up to 24 hrs.

To the OP, even though I could have a home charger installed easily, my research/planning (still to get a BEV) shows it would be perfectly feasible and with little time costs, even for me to use public chargers for all my local expected usage requirements. I do though have rapid chargers within five miles of home which could be used. Those so far, looking in the passing, I have never seen anymore than 1/3rd being used at anyone time so capacity is there.

I would be in no hurry to get a home charger installed when I find a BEV; up to £900 to install a charger is a lot of fill ups I could do at public chargers! The more I look into BEVs, the more I’m sure the majority of drivers on the roads could easily use them for most if not all their journeys. A change in thinking is needed.

Post edited at 13:01
 wintertree 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Or 35 minutes on a 22kW fast charger (again not sure if all Leafs can take this). 

The 22 kW fast chargers are AC supplies to the car's onboard charger.  

Very few current BEVs have a 3-phase AC inlet and onboard charger, most of them (all Leafs included) have a 1-phase inlet so for them it's either a 3.5 kW or a 7 kW inlet to the onboard charger.

All new model Leafs have a 7 kW on board charger, many/most old model Leafs are 3.5 kW with the 7 kW being an option at purchase-from-new.

 Neil Williams 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Climbing Pieman:

> Probably for a lot. However, I understand it is not recommended for anything other than very occasional use unless you install a separately wired socket back to the consumer unit so it’s independent of other appliances.

Yep, I understand this too, because almost no other appliance draws a constant 13A for a prolonged period - even electric heaters have some element of "diversity" because the thermostat will turn them off part of the time.  But it's still a 13A socket which is not an expensive nor difficult thing to install if you want one.  You'd want one outside anyway, not running cables through windows.

> I would be in no hurry to get a home charger installed when I find a BEV; up to £900 to install a charger is a lot of fill ups I could do at public chargers! The more I look into BEVs, the more I’m sure the majority of drivers on the roads could easily use them for most if not all their journeys. A change in thinking is needed.

They are certainly suitable for my needs - all I'm waiting for is for a used market in either electric large estates or SUVs to filter through, because otherwise the cost is somewhat prohibitive*.  I reckon 2-3 years and that will be the case.  If I wanted a small runaround I'd already have a Nissan Leaf (there is a very healthy used market in those), but I'm a big person who tends to shift lots of stuff when going by car (otherwise I'd use the train) and so I'm not interested in small cars.

* My last used car (3 year old diesel Ford Kuga) cost £13K.  I'd stretch to maybe £18-20K with a view to run for 5 rather than 3 years and a longer period personal loan accordingly, but I wouldn't stretch to higher than that as would be necessary to buy new.  All in today's money of course.  I also refuse to use PCPs, I prefer to own outright.

Post edited at 13:07
In reply to Neil Williams:

> You'd want one outside anyway, not running cables through windows.

Ha, my forward thinking. When I was getting wiring work done anyway last year, I got the electrician to add an outside socket! It would be useful I thought either, maybe, for visitors, or for myself with a granny cable.

Didn’t do a separate circuit though; electrician, knowing my wiring setup just told me to be careful how much is plugged into the circuit if that socket was to be used for a BEV. I have RCDs so he said that they should trip if needed.

 Hooo 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I have to say that's a bit optimistic. In my Leaf 4 miles per kWh is the best I get. If it's cold or a motorway it can drop a lot below that. And also you need to factor that kWh in doesn't equal kWh out. There are significant losses in charging. 

I just checked the charging history on my Ohme, and the other week I did a 75 mile trip from 100% and it used 22.2kWh to fully charge afterwards. So that's about 3 miles per kWh. Heating on low and 65 on the motorway. 

 jkarran 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> So, if I got a 5 or 6 year old Leaf with a 24kW battery how much hassle would it be to keep it charged just using public chargers?  How long would it need to be plugged in on a 7kW charger to get a weekly top up?

Reliable 50mi from a charge with a 24kWH leaf requires driving it gently. It is very doable.

80% (about what you'll use in 50mi) of 24kWH is 19, divide by 7kW you get 2:45 Hrs, call it 3-3:15 to be sure.

Public charging infrastructure is only going to keep improving.

24kWH Leaf is a bit limiting in what you can do with it. That might be fine.

jk

 Greenbanks 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Taxis? Lots are electric now...and you'd be contributing to the economy of a newly independent Scotland

 Jamie Wakeham 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Hooo:

> I have to say that's a bit optimistic. In my Leaf 4 miles per kWh is the best I get.

Fair enough - I don't have one and based that on a quick Google!  

 hokkyokusei 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Where do you park your car currently? 

Are there any high speed chargers at places you regularly visit? Supermarkets maybe?

Convince your boss to fit a charger at work?

I think Leafs are CHAdeMO, so when you're looking at local charging options, make sure that's catered for.

Edit: missed the bit about your allocated parking. Still worth checking to see if there are any plans to install chargers. It's going to be more and more common in future.

Post edited at 14:16
 jonny taylor 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

If you want simple encouragement: I've recently done what you describe (Leaf without a home charger - under-used public charger 5 mins walk away) and I'm not regretting it yet. However I do have the cushion of knowing I could just about rig up a home charger arrangement if I decided I wanted to in future.

That said, if you're only doing 50 miles a week from an Edinburgh flat, have you considered a car club?

 blurty 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

>  But it is true that a significant reduction of particulates in cities is the biggest environmental benefit and arguably the most important in the short term at least, with CO2 second and everything else trailing a bit behind.

Surely the particulates are mainly emitted by lorries and buses?

 Neil Williams 20 Jan 2022
In reply to blurty:

> Surely the particulates are mainly emitted by lorries and buses?

Diesel cars, particularly older ones, are as much of a problem.  Petrol cars much less so, which is why ULEZ type schemes generally require diesels to be very new (Euro 6) but petrols can be rather older (anything with a catalytic converter, near enough - other than classics, most petrol cars which aren't London ULEZ compliant will have fallen apart by now, as they will be at least 17 years old).

But buses are rapidly being converted to electric - give it 10 years and pretty much all of them will be, and something will need to be done about lorries in urban areas, e.g. fitting batteries for the "last mile" inside the likely-forthcoming ZEZs (zero emissions zones) in city centres.

Certainly in London it's the builders' lorries that stink, but in provincial cities private cars are also a big issue.

Post edited at 15:40
 Ridge 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Climbing Pieman:

> Didn’t do a separate circuit though; electrician, knowing my wiring setup just told me to be careful how much is plugged into the circuit if that socket was to be used for a BEV. I have RCDs so he said that they should trip if needed.

Am I the only one thinking "Hmmm"?

Obviously depends on the layout of your house, but most consumer units will be next to the outside wall of the house where the main feed comes in, so running a dedicated feed outside shouldn't be too difficult or expensive.

 Ciro 20 Jan 2022
In reply to minimike:

> Some supermarkets have rapids but a lot just have 7kw which is fairly useless for a shopping trip duration. Luckily I live 100 yards away and can leave it there overnight.. but demand for that ‘service’ is rising!

Is your insurance company happy with that arrangement?

1
In reply to Ridge:

In reality it is safer than it may sound they way I said it I think!

It’s actually a dedicated separate circuit from the RCD consumer unit to serve only the garage that he added to. It terminates in the garage at a secondary old style fused consumer unit before it feeds anything.

Further, as I asked for an internal isolation switch for the external socket, he installed a fused switch. There is therefore three fuses in line for the external socket, and two for the two other 13A sockets. All of the garage 13A sockets are visible from the isolation switch and in reality noting is plugged in permanently and are only used when I need them.

Safer than a normal house circuit where I doubt anyone knows what is plugged in at one time if they put a cable out of the window. Of course, you could deliberately plug various high power items into all the garage sockets at once, but you would know you’ve done it and, in theory, then if overloaded the circuit should trip the RCD and if that failed blow one or more of the fuses.

BTW - Not that easy to do outside with my home and the main cable enters underground through concrete. Only easy way for a new cable to be routed would be up and then through the attic and then out and down. That’s what will be done if I get a proper EV charger.

 Ridge 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Climbing Pieman:

Phew!

Your original description made it sound like he'd just stuck a spur on 32A ring feeding the house sockets!

 nbonnett 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

All sounds a right hassle , I'd say crazy especially if you ever go up north in it.

A hybrid is the best of both worlds . Let everyone else iron out the up and coming problems with old EV cars and high battery mileage and the need to replace the battery at a higher cost than what the car is worth.

Personally i'm sticking with my eco diesel and my £5 pa road tax , low emissions and 68mpg till hydrogen cars hit the road.

 Dax H 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Hooo:

> Is that how much a 5 year old Leaf goes for nowadays!?

> I bought a 3 year old Leaf 30 a year and a half ago for £9500. 24kWh ones were going for under £7k.

Ahh the post or at least early covid days. Second had prices have gone through the roof. Mid 2019 I got a brand new van for 15.5k, I could sell it tomorrow with 60k on the clock for the same as I paid for it. 

In reply to Ridge:

Yup I realised that after you posted, sorry.

 summo 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Ridge:

> Phew!

> Your original description made it sound like he'd just stuck a spur on 32A ring feeding the house sockets!

Is it not standard practice to fit load balancers with charging systems ?  (not plug in granny chargers) 

 Si dH 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

The only thing I would add to what others have said, if you haven't already, is to download zapmap and look at the comments for the chargers you are planning to rely on. Some chargers are just less reliable than others. You wouldn't want to go ahead and then find that the chargers you were planning using only work 50% of the time (unlikely but possible.)

Oh, and - a minor thing but might otherwise cause confusion. I think Leafs that are either newer or upgraded charge at a max of 6.6kW or 28A on single phase, rather than the 32A that almost all other cars do. I don't know why. If you see those numbers it isn't anything unusual to worry about.

Post edited at 20:31
 PaulW 20 Jan 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

As usual, lots of good advice on UKC. But check the speakev.com site.

Loads of threads on there about how to manage without a home charger

In reply to jonny taylor:

> That said, if you're only doing 50 miles a week from an Edinburgh flat, have you considered a car club?

Yes, there's a car club bay very close to my flat so I looked into it and I thought the prices and restrictions on the hires were crazy.  In particular I'd want to be able to keep it for a couple of hours longer than I originally thought and pay for the time without large penalties.  I was surprised because it seemed like a great idea but I think I'd be better off calling Ubers than using the car club.


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