UKC

Hi all,

Another couple of heart rate questions, but I didn't want to hijack the other thread so starting my own.

I'm training for a (very) hilly half marathon plus and am wanting to try using heart rate zones and 80/20 training.

First question, about calculating my zones. I've worked out my resting heart rate (55 bpm) and my max heart rate (188 bpm from intervals up a steep hill) using a chest HRM. There seems to be two ways to calculate my heart rate zones, either as a percentage of max HR or a percentage of HRR. Can anyone tell me what the difference is and which is better to use? They seem to give quite different HR ranges.

Second question; there isn't much flat ground where I live, and I much prefer trail running to road running. I've been trying to keep to Z2 for my easy runs, but it's really SO slow, 45 minutes for a 5k, 1hr 20min for just under 10k (Back when I was fit I'd comfortably do a 5k in 25 min, 10k in about 45min). This is mostly running on hillyish woodland trails, which I'm thinking isn't the best for sticking to Z2 as often dodging around roots trees etc. Would I be better just sticking to roads and avoiding hills as best I can until I get a bit fitter (starting from a pretty low fitness level just now), which I'm hoping would be easier to stick to Z2 and not feel like I'd be faster walking?

I know there are quite a few archived threads on this, but they didn't quite answer my questions, any advice much appreciated.

See this article for some help in setting your zones: https://training4endurance.co.uk/improve-endurance/aerobic-base-training/ 

I would however do a HR drift test to figure out where your aerobic capacity lies and then use that going forward as the upper limit of your Z2 

Yes, 100% - see aerobic base article above. It will feel stupid slow at the beginning but after a while you will get much faster and then that training will transfer to the trails.

I will say that this is all my opinion and it has worked for me so your mileage may or may not vary  

hey there, I am lazy so just use Strava's Heart rate zones to train, taken with a pinch of salt. Zone 2 should feel mega easy, you could happily have a chat, eat a bar etc. As long as I am feeling that way and around the Zone 2 mark, that's fine for me. Zone 3 should feel harder to talk, with eating limited to gels, Zone 4 proper lung busting

Re zone 2 training, I found this the hardest part when I started using heart rate to train. I also live in a hilly area and prefer trails. I forced myself to really slow down - and often walk, to keep in zone 2. This felt painfully slow at first, but I concentrated on breathing and technique (posture, foot placement etc). I was advised that it would take 8 weeks before I noticed any improvement; i.e. being able to go a bit quicker yet keep within zone 2. Sure enough, come the 8 week mark, things started getting easier - I could up the pace a little / gradient a little on zone 2 runs, keeping within the heart rate range. I also found my recovery quicker on tempo and hill training runs - my heart became better at dropping back down as I slowed pace

I kept to trails mostly as that is what I race on and what I prefer, however, one of the changes in my training was doing more runs for shorter times, so for 30' zone 2 runs I would often just keep to local pavements

The other benefit for me has been an improved technique and posture plus better breathing, which has all contributed to quicker recovery after runs and reduced injuries. I am now a big fan of zone 2 running and do at least 2 x sessions per week

Hope this helps

If this 80:20 philosophy specifies the use of particular zones then does it not also specify how to calculate them?

I would suggest that you will see greater benefit from doing training that you enjoy (on trails) even if you deviate somewhat from the plan, than if you stick to roads and then struggle for motivation.

I'm slightly surprised by the idea of using the 80:20 method (disclaimer, I am not a fan) for such a short distance. Is it not intended for those running ultras and spending long days in the hills? For a traditional flattish road marathon most workouts would be focussed on improving speed. For a hilly half I would expect to do lots of hill reps which are naturally in a high zone.

Thanks, I've had a quick skim through the article and looks like there's lots of interesting (to me at least) stuff in there. I'll have a proper read of it later.

That's reassuring to read, thanks. Like you I've also been trying to use these slow runs to focus on posture and better running technique. A few more weeks to go by the sounds of it before I'll notice the benefit.

There's lots of articles out there on how to calculate it, it's just that there seems to be more than one way of doing it, which seem to lead to quite different results, hence the question.

Fair enough, I can see it not being for everyone. The reason I've decided to try it is that my current level of fitness is pretty low and I want to try and minimise the chance of injury, so lots of easy running sounded good for this. The race I'm training for is 18 miles, so a bit over half marathon, but  I'm mainly doing it to improve my overall fitness, and if I get into it may be tempted for longer things. I do plan to do lots more hill reps as my fitness improves.

However, I would be interested in peoples opinion on whether this training style scales down to shorter distances rather than just for ultras.

Yeah 18 miles with hills is a much longer event than a road half!

It seems to me that you can apply the philosophy of 80:20 without ever needing to look at a heart rate monitor. Zone 2 = easy pace, sustainable such that your legs will give up long before your lungs. As far as I can see the entire argument is that you should take that pace which you would typically use on your long runs, and apply it to short runs as well.

The nice thing about using perceived effort rather than rigid heart rate zones is that within a run you naturally vary a bit, especially on trails. A burst up a short rise, extra exertion over a section of brashings, or slowing down on a rocky section are all perfectly fine but will move your heart rate out of a given zone briefly.

% heart rate reserve takes into consideration your resting pulse so it is much more tailored to you 

I'm usually training for ultras and also relatively new (despite being nearly 60) to using HRM as a tool.  First issue was determining max HR, which I achieved using a chest monitor rather than wrist-based in the first instance. Thereafter, and being lazy, I let Strava do the rest.

However, having for a long time worked off perceived effort, I soon found subsequently that PE and HR matched up pretty well.

I terms of 80:20, for decades I have always valued long days out hill-walking as 'base miles'.

Being based in the SW, a full day out (8-12 hours or more) on the coast path or the moors, carrying a normal day pack will see me in zones 1 & 2 most of the time and more importantly gets the body used to long steady efforts and feet/legs used to being out all day.

In terms of short training runs (under 10 miles) and again I'm mostly on hilly trails, its hard to stay within z2 without being painfully slow, so I don't bother! I go back to PE and lo and behold I know when I'm in z3 and z4. For longer training runs and events, I'll make the effort to stay roughly z2/z3 (mostly based on PE, but I will look at data then and now). Half-marathon seems a middle ground for me, so to achieve target time of around 1:40 I'll be working pretty hard, mostly z3/z4.

I don't claim any expertise in this, just my personal observations of my own performance and what seems to work for me.

N