UKC

Hey

Any recommendation on good lightweight sleeping bags for Alpine bivy, looking for something that's warm enough for summer/autumn time and fairly light and more importantly stuffs down quite small in rucksack, any info or point in right direction would be great.

Many thanks in advance..

I highly recommend PHD bags. They are premium products, though at a premium price,that you can get tailor made. For good weather summer European alpine I tend to use a Minimus. They now have other bags in their range both down and synthetic since I bought mine, I'm sure you will find one to suit. 

   It depends on how you use your bag ( the weather you expect to be in ) and what you combine it with. Eg; Walking not too far to a luxury bivvy, bivvying on a multiday climbing route, bivvying at 3,500 metres plus or a bit of everything.

    I use the same sleeping bag with different insulating mats, depending on nature of bivvy, combined with a silk liner and a bivvy or bothy bag plus hot water bottle.

I tend to think a decent quality 400g fill down bag is about the best compromise for all you've described. Most come in the 800-900g total weight range which isn't alot in the big scheme of things. 

I think you can go lighter than this, but in the spring and autumn you might be carrying the weight difference in a heavier liner or more clothes to wear in it - so there's no benefit to the lighter bag.

I use mine (Alpkit Pipedream 400) all year round and in the Alps - the variation is only what you wear in it and put under it. For lightweight bivi's its 2/3 of a Z-Rest as a mat and it works well. My wife and son have ME bags, Glacier and Helium and they are a similar spec.

Agree with PHD, especially as regular sales and specials - sign up to the mailing list and keep an eye on the bargain box in between sales.

b

Thanks Guys, Looked at the PHD ones, look great but chrikey they aren't cheap! Mountain equipment Xeros looks good as does the Rab Neautrino Pro 400. Hoping after some research and advice I can find the best warmth to weight/packdown size ratio I can, I want it to be warm but also stuff down in pack fairly small.

On the last few Bivys I've done my pack as been way too big and heavy! 

Needle  Sports are doing cheap deals on Rab sleeping bags 

I agree with PHD. By far the best quality, lightest, and most compact (when packed away), sleeping bag I've had. Mine is 10 years old now and I've used it on numerous back packing trips. OK it seems expensive but it's well worth the extra if you want are backpacking and want warmth combined with lightness when carrying it.

If you don't already have one, it's worth also investing in a silk liner for extra warmth and to keep the inside of the sleeping bag clean and fresh. I've washed my silk liner after every trip, but never had to wash the sleeping bag (which would reduce it's efficiency). A silk liner is very light and rolls up into a a tiny stuff bag. 

Late Autumn I bought the ME Helium 400... 
Squishes down fairly small and very light (IMO). 
I would recommend..

Mountain Equipment Firelite/Firefly would be my choice (budget permitting) of what is currently on the market. I have a PHD Minim 300 that has been used and abused and has not faired as well as my two ME bags. PHD bags are great, and I like the fact they are made in Stalyvegas (if they still are, maybe not.....) but they are not quite up to the reverence in which they are held by some imho.

My PHD bag is 25 years old it’s been used and abused and even got attacked by some rats, after a wash and some patches it’s still going strong, it’s definitely a lifetime investment.

both Rab and ME do great stuff and I have had and still do sleeping bags from ME and Rab down jackets but the PHD is definitely worth considering as an investment.

I have a phd, I also have a Rab.  The Rab one was much poorer quality , didn’t last (the internal baffles separated with normal use) and is now virtually unuseable.  I sent it back to Rab, they didn’t fix the baffles (ignored the problem), washed it and returned it…..not impressed. 

If you don’t want to go PHD , consider Mountain Equipment over Rab.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, but hopefully it will contribute to Tommy's discussion, what sort of temperatures do people expect to encounter in a summer alpine bivvy?  I know that is one of those 'how long is a piece of string' sorts of questions but what are we normally talking about?  I am personally surprised at the recommendations of bags which only contain about 400 g of down.  That seems chilly to me but I have no experience of alpine bivvys.  What I do know though is that I would regard a bag with 400 g of down as being a UK three season bag at best but I think I am a bit of a softie.  Are we talking about using a 400 g bag but wearing all our clothing as well?

Good point - and yes - I have used mine over the winter but with a liner etc... 

The other issue of note is what is your sleeping mat? 
A good mat can make all the difference as the down under you is compressed. 
 

In addition to a sleeping bag, it's worth packing some merino long johns. They weigh very little, fold up small and make a big difference to how warm you feel.

Crux Torpedo ; good but not cheap

It's an alpine bivvy, so of course you will be keeping most of your clothes on and of course you wouldn't expect to be especially warm. For summer alpine use, I would be thinking about the lightest 2 season bag available, inside a bivi bag and with all my clothes either on me or under me.

I have asked a similar question on here years ago and i settled on 300g of high quality 900 fill down sleeping bag and paired with a mat and a jacket has always been perfect around 3000+ summer alpine.  

Sounds about right. In the 80s I used the lightest Rab bag available at the time, 500g of down probably less than 900 rating at the time.  Too warm biving on rock at 4000m, had to sleep half out of the bag,   Just right in a tent on the glacier below the Capucin  at about 3300m, though more than a 9mm mat would have been nice.

Ideal maybe in dry conditions for the first two nights, any testing in the back garden should be done  in conjunction with a  hosepipe  directed at you all night!

After experimenting with different sleep systems for almost fifty years, FFIW I have always suffered most with cold legs and feet when biving in climbing clothes only, a light synthetic half bag solves this problem, This means that you can fight your way off a hill in bad weather wearing most of your clothes system if required. Also if(when)  clothes  gets wet, you can dry them out with body heat exercising.

Other options to  consider are Blizzard bags , not for the faint hearted, noisy sweaty but amazingly warm for the weight.  Used in about minus 10 with standard scottish winter clothing and no mat, toasty warm apart from cold feet ( make some foot warmers out of two plastic bread bags and some loose synthetic  material.

A synthetic bag such as a Mountain Hardware Hyperlamina weighs 900g in the long version  . I find mine amazingly warm. The centre short zip has a two way puller that would allow you to stay tied on neatly. 

Western Mountaineering are better value and better bags than PHD.

Cumulus down bags are a Polish company who sometimes sell off kit to Rock + Run. They do sell direct and are similar to PHD but perhaps not quite so weight fanatical. I've not got any of their bags but a pair of down trousers and they are extremely warm.

I would be wearing all my clothing, I'm looking for a decent set up for longer more technical alpine routes, Hence the wanting it to compress down really small in bottom of bag, be light but still have some good warmth protection. Id probably already have a really warm belay jacket with me as well.. its finding that balance between comfort, suffering and the carrying it in the first place.

After lots of research I went with a marmot phase 20 with a decent rated mat. The bag is about 700g. And rated to -5.
I got it from trekkinn. Takes a bit longer but pricing is keen. 

Best make sure your mat is rated for resting directly on razer sharp glacial grit and scree. A cut down closed cell mat is durable enough for a few alpine bivis. An inflated mat won't last the night unless it is on a pure ice ledge. That's if you have the luxury of a lie down ledge

Good question, but hard to answer definitively. Probably in the broad range of 0 to -10 but highly variable. There are lots of tips and tricks that should make a 400 - 450g bag ( total weight ) reasonable compromise such as what Robert Durran said. Eg:

- Wear hat, gloves and some of your clothing

- Spare clothing over / under you as appropriate. Sometimes use rope and rucksack becomes pillow

- Have a pair of dry clean spare socks to sleep in 

- Drink warm drinks but not too many, eat fatty foods like cheese

- Once in your bag do some sit ups

- Obviously ensure your bivvy spot is as sheltered from wind as possible

- Ensure your base mat is suitable for where you intend to sleep. Foam mats can be cut down to shape - I tend to use 3/4 length.

- Keep moving and don't bivvy until later in the day. Get up early and off ( this is usually well before dawn and often in the coldest part of the night - obviously depends on route.)

- Use a hot water bottle, becomes drinking bottle for the next day

- Ensure stove, water or snow collection are to hand so you can make hot drink in the morning without having to get fully out of your bag. Organise your kit the night before for as quick a getaway in the morning as possible.

- Consider a mummy shaped close fitting bag with only a quarter or half length zip. Ensure all cords are cinched down before you get cold.

I'm sure others will come up with more suggestions. Do bear in mind that some people are more tolerant ( or more willing to be tolerant ) of a colder night's sleep than others. 

In that case I'd have thought a good half bag is the answer, with cut-down closed-cell mat (coiled rope can be used for extra insulation and comfort). Back in the day I and several climbing partners used Pete H's down-filled duvet + pied d'elephant combo, with press studs joining them. Worked fine at 4000ish m in the Alps in summer.

For me there is nothing better than a PHD bag. Proven over the years

My friend has ME Helium 400 and he is also happy with it.

You can also consult with shop assistants in the store

Something that I'm not sure has been mentioned is that if you intend to use it inside a bivvy bag it's worth having a damp-proof outer to your sleeping bag. Mountain Equipment are good in my experience in this respect and they are better designed than Rabs overall. It may be that ME down is more responsibly sourced, too, but I am not certain of that.

Crux Torpedo sleeping bags are very expensive, but apparently water proof enough not to need a bivy bag

Interesting thought. Very specialized, I'd have thought, so great for specific purpose if someone can afford it. Also, I'd want to know how well it'd breath, and unlike with a bivvy bag, where are boots kept dry and slightly less cold (apart from inside the s'bag itself)? Have you used one?

No, I was thinking of getting one for sea kayaking due to water proofing, very compact and availability in short length (I’m short) but will stick to my standard down bag for now. Also thinking of getting an Akto

Drop me a pm if you want to discuss the Atko offline – not that there's anything I'd say offline about them that I wouldn't say online.