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Sharpening advice please

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 deepsoup 13 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

A bit too much imo.

 jezb1 13 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Too much.

In reply to The Lemming:

Too much for me, it looks rather like the bird has been superimosed on the background.

OP The Lemming 13 Feb 2022
In reply to mountain.martin:

I agree. It's way too much.

1
OP The Lemming 13 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

How's this version. I dialled back the sharpness and did it globally rather than just the bird.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/the1lemming/51879867358/in/dateposted/

OP The Lemming 13 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

I worked only with the DNG file in Topaz Denoise and Sharpen. Everything went swimmingly apart from one minor detail, white balance. Took me ages to eyeball with the original image.

Could not sync or use the eyedropper. 😪

 Marek 13 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Better, but there's something a bit weird round the tail feathers?

When I'm sharpening, I tend to be very wary of high contrast edges (e.g., the edge of the bird against the background) and usually push back on the sharpening in those areas relative to the sharpening of fine (but lower contrast) detail.

OP The Lemming 13 Feb 2022
In reply to Marek:

No, that's the feathers 'as is' compared to the original.

1
 dread-i 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

If you like messing with photoshop...

There are more colour spaces than RGB. You can convert an image to CMYK and sharpen just the black (K) channel. Or, you can convert it to LAB, and sharpen just the brightens channel. Then convert back and export as normal.

They produce different effects and have different artefacts, when abused. They give you different options to subtly alter a pic, without everything receiving the same treatment.  I don't think one technique will work across all images, so have a play.

 Tringa 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Your first shot might be a little(and to my eyes I stress 'a little') over sharpened but I think it is better than the one where you have dialed it back a bit. 

I think the first has better definition of the feathers  generally but particularly on the breast and head. The eye also looks clearer.

Dave

 Marek 14 Feb 2022
In reply to dread-i:

> If you like messing with photoshop...

> There are more colour spaces than RGB. You can convert an image to CMYK and sharpen just the black (K) channel. Or, you can convert it to LAB, and sharpen just the brightens channel. Then convert back and export as normal.

> They produce different effects and have different artefacts, when abused. They give you different options to subtly alter a pic, without everything receiving the same treatment.  I don't think one technique will work across all images, so have a play.

Good point. LAB is especially useful if you want to tweek the saturation (or mess with colour in general). Although it tend to be a bit less obvious how it works.

 ChrisJD 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Post a link to your RAW file and we can all have a tinker.

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

Not tried this before.

I've put it into a Google Drive folder, I'm hoping you can download the link.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gGFgeTcep7xmh20e65e8YcW0u8BzYM7W/view?usp=...

 jezb1 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

> Not tried this before.

> I've put it into a Google Drive folder, I'm hoping you can download the link.

Is that .dng already cropped?

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to jezb1:

Nope.

RAW converted to DNG so I can open in my 10 year old Lightroom

 jezb1 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Fair one. More noise than I expected.

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to jezb1:

Tell me about it😭

 jezb1 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Not very exciting I'm afraid, but I gave the poor little beast a bit more colour, don't really like it but the light's pretty flat. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LDz-HhwIn5jJNmGpOtH8UkXh7lErKbtG/view?usp=...

 ChrisJD 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

I think you've done a good enough job (in the 2nd one) to eeek what you have with that starting file.  Bird not quite in focus enough on the original shot, and its a quite a crop. 

Time to move onto another image?

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

A bird shot from today's garden isolation?

 Dark-Cloud 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

On one of the FB Panasonic groups there was a guy who always touted Topaz as *THE* tool to go along with M4/3 kit, he used to post a before and an after with a crop showing how amazing it was, i thought they all looked bloody awful so told him, he told me i was wrong and seemingly blocked me as i have never seen any of his posts again.

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Fanboys, eh?

😂

However I have come to the conclusion that the noise on my camera is not exactly class leading and discovering Topaz Denoise has made a marked improvement on my images.

The Panasonic GH6 comes out soon. Getting giddy. 😀

 Dark-Cloud 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

GH6 will be interesting for sure, haven't seen any detail yet other than a few bits about a new processor etc.

You could just buy a G9, it's better for photos but still does 90% of what the GH5 does

I got tempted by the S5 deals knocking around but the FF lenses are just stupid money and stupid size.

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

My only gripe is that Panasonic is sticking to the auto focus, and not going Phased Detection.

When I decided to move away from Nikon in 2017 I deliberated between Full-Frame and MFT. I went MFT because glass was smaller, lighter and more cost effective compared to Full-Frame kit.

I'm still happy with my choice, and yes, even though my friend's Full-Frame Nikon D850 is superior in low light but I'm more than happy with the results I get with stills and video.

I have a 100-400mm zoom. I can only dream of having the deep pockets to own a Full-Frame equivalent 200-800mm zoom, along with the Hulk-like upper body strength to weald such a piece of glass.

Post edited at 14:38
OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

Wana have another tinker at noise and sharpening with this shot taken today in my garden?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dhkx150vRtZKj6shPvFEEmJmB5Ig8Jq3/view?usp=...

I'll have a go myself.

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

> Time to move onto another image?

Here's my attempt at another shot, this time sharpening the squirrel with the same technique of my initial subject at the start of this discussion.

This time I chose to sharpen everything in the foreground and did not touch the background at all.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/the1lemming/51882018514/in/dateposted/

Post edited at 16:56
 jezb1 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

I use Photoshop.

In the RAW filter I upped the exposure a touch, brought down highlights, pushed up shadows, dehazed a touch. Used the Calibration to up the Blue Primary saturation, took down the overall saturation a bit, upped the orange a touch. Denoised quite a lot (you had a pretty high ISO which maybe why it was so noisy?), sharpened the whole image a bit.

Then in the main Photoshop workspace I used a sharpening brush to do a few bits of the squirrel, and the dodge tool on some of the brown bits of the squirrel.

Finally I selected around the squirrel and played with the colours of the background a bit.

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to jezb1:

Yea, ISO was a bit OTT.

It was a dull dark day so I experimented. Normally I have my camera on Aperture Priority however today with so many moving birds in the garden I went for Shutter Priority and unusually I went for auto ISO. I've used the auto ISO probably five times in as many years.

I've discovered if I edit images in Topaz direct then the White Balance isn't screwed about. However if I edit the images in Lightroom and use Topaz as a Plug-in, then the White Balance gets screwed up.

Something I've learned with this little project.

 ChrisJD 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Pretty similar to yours:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/akgb4ojs0y1i2s2/Mrs%20Squirrel.jpg?dl=0

Lightroom with a couple of the new LR auto masks.

The jpg output might look a bit more saturated than I wanted from the RAW in LR develop mode (actually not too bad in the Dropbox viewer).

Post edited at 18:36
OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

I think you nailed WB better than me. 😀

 ChrisJD 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Can't claim anything for that! - didn't touch WB: LR 'As Shot'.

About 30 ish steps/increments (via LR history)

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

> Post a link to your RAW file and we can all have a tinker.

Wana play with another noisy subject from today and see how far we can push noise and sharpening before we break the image?

 ChrisJD 14 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

So I embraced the noise....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i2qo3dpw1rpy97q/Project%20number%203.jpg?dl=0

Zero noise reduction, but added loads of 'Grain' in LR.

Boosted with sharpening, texture/clarity, contrast

Dialled back a bit on Sat/Vib

And a large vignette to hide more noise.

No masking and no local adjustments, all global.

As shot WB.

Under 30 steps.

OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

> So I embraced the noise....

I hate noise. 🤣

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OGjDvT4E4r6bfWVzYU_ertw5Ezrs4dVp/view?usp=...

My attempt

EDIT

We are very similar on the crops though

Post edited at 21:07
OP The Lemming 14 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

Its interesting how we got different approaches to the same subject matter.

I'm really embracing Topaz as long as I don't let Topaz anywhere near the RAW/DNG files.

It messes with WB.

 ChrisJD 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Yes, I don't seem to have 'that' problem with grain / noise being in images (like some people, lol).  I  added the LR grain to even out the noise.

Mine only took a few minutes, just a bit of fun and distraction from the work I should be doing, lol.

OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

As you can tell from DGN files my camera produces a scarily large amount of noise in low light or with high ISO.

I have to say that I am really impressed with how Topaz eliminates all that noisy mush without turning my images into plastic looking cartoons.

It works really well as a stand alone or as a plug-in for lightroom. Just be aware of the occasional problem of slight white balance changes when working directly with DGN files in the Topaz apps.

No issues in Lightroom while using Topaz and working on TIFs instead of the DGN originals.

Post edited at 11:05
 ChrisJD 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Topaz does appear to be doing a great job with those ISO 6400 noise levels cw with what LR could do with it. 

 Sean Kelly 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Another option if you  have PS is High Pass filter sharpening. Just Google it. Quite simple really. Not sure if LR has High Pass Sharpening . Look under the Filter tab.

OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2022
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Brain hurts reading about that. 😯

My current camera is the first one that I have ever owned that does not have a High Pass Filter, and I really appreciate the sharper looking images that it creates. There have only been a couple of times that I have had to suffer moire.

Not too sure how and if Id want to use a High Pass Filter but I will check to see if such an option is available in GIMP.

Cheers

 Toerag 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

> My only gripe is that Panasonic is sticking to the auto focus, and not going Phased Detection.

You could get the new OM-1 when it comes out? Seems to be a decent step above the E-M1iii. Dunno how it compares to your GH in video terms though.

 Sean Kelly 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Just checked, no High Pass in LR, but they sugest the Develope module be used. Not familiar with Gimp. Sorry.

Oh, just seen that Gimp does have a High Pass filter so all is not lost, but start with an unsharpened image and do basic adjustments first. I always do sharpening last before saving.

Post edited at 13:46
OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2022
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Seems like you're late to the party. 😀

We've been having some experiments with Topaz and Lightroom/photoshop.

Topaz has held itself up quite well when it comes to denoise and sharpening, for me at least.

OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2022
In reply to Toerag:

> You could get the new OM-1 when it comes out?

Seems like a very sexy camera indeed. 😀

OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

> Topaz does appear to be doing a great job with those ISO 6400 noise levels cw with what LR could do with it.

Do you want to have one last go at seeing how far you can titillate this noisy image?

Its also ISO 6400

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aAEeIBoDOvb8BcuDGckQNghS-MtPh5x1/view?usp=...

 65 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

> Do you want to have one last go at seeing how far you can titillate this noisy image?

> Its also ISO 6400

This is as good as I got with Capture1. I cropped it as well. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/48504400@N00/51882915222/in/dateposted/

OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

My attempt with Lightroom+Topaz denois + Topaz Sharpening

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V2-zdeAVHFDSNRk6ZrRB7ANq8afXojYZ/view?usp=...

OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

I've solved the Topaz bug with messing up white balance. You can edit the DNG file but as long as you do NOT save the denoised image back to DGN then everything is good.

Save to DGN and that's when the crying starts.

 ChrisJD 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

I've been a bit more bold with the crop:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cbnrd4268j4s661/Fight.jpg?dl=0

OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

Not bad considering these little chaps were at least 15 meters away.

What are your thoughts on me putting these images through the denoise washer?

Do you think it kills the image or enhances it?

 ChrisJD 15 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

I'd dial back a bit, touch of 'the plastic' on the last one creeping in.  It cleans them up, there's no doubt it. 

A bit too much for my taste, I'd at least acknowledge there was a 'some' noise in the original, lol.

But it's your photography and your taste, not mine.

OP The Lemming 15 Feb 2022
In reply to ChrisJD:

What is really pissing me off is the randomness of Topaz messing up the white balance when saving the images.

I have no idea where I am messing up. But everybody's edit is more accurate to the balance of the original DGN file. Mine are slightly different, more greenish.

 Sean Kelly 16 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

When Scott Kelby starts using Topaz, so will I.


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