UKC

I was doing an easy route in the northern Corries today and noticed that the team in front of us had built a peg belay at one of the stances. It made me panic a bit - no pegs, what am I going to do! But when I got there I managed to get three good nuts in the same crack.

I've never carried pegs but was thinking I should probably get some. I assumed that they would usually be saved for a last resort and other gear used in preference first. Am I wrong about that? Is it normal to whack pitons into good nut slots?

I have a random selection of pegs in my bag for Scottish Winter. Have yet to need them. 

No it's not normal and I got my for exactly the reason you mentioned.

(I had imagined questing off into the unknown but actually I just climb well trodden classics)

Don't think it's normal no. I only carry a couple and only place them when absolutely nothing else will work.

A few random guesses as to why they were doing it:

- They ran out of everything else

- They're not from round 'ere

- They've just splashed out on their first few pegs and were desperate to use them (probably after seeing someone using them in YouTube or something) and to hell with ethics

- They're knobs

Obviously the above aren't mutually exclusive

A blade (/bugaboo) or two plus a pecker (/terrier) can prove useful every now and then. Used to carry angles but never placed them. If the cracks are wide enough for angles you can normally fiddle in a nut. Always have a mighty bulldog and if climbing in South Wales a Warthog... Who comes up with these names?!

In most circumstances a nut is better in lots of ways. Quicker to place, quicker to remove, easier to assess the quality of the placement and less damaging to the rock.

I've not climbed loads in the Northern Corries, but I don't remember ever needing to place a peg or come across insitu ones. I'm sure there are some, but compared to Ben Nevis say, they just don't seem a Cairngorm granite thing.

Is/was there one on the crux of the Message maybe? Compare that to the West Coast and I remember finding many pegs (and often being glad for it!).

Anyway the hammers on modern tools are generally pants for hammering things, so that's a good a reason as any to avoid hammering anything!

I really don't see a problem. Pegs are part of winter climbing. We are seeing summer ethics creep into winter climbing, this is wrong they are two different but related disciplines (with some cross over). Most winter routes climb features which would be abhorrent in summer.

A few weeks in hospital or worse regretting not carrying pegs would be a harsh education.

The lack of hammers on modern tools comes from the fact that they are designed for alpine climbing, where pegs, bolts and other fixed gear are in situ. Not from pegs being redundant.

This argument is similar to chastising cavers for placing bolts. Best to step away from the ill informed opinions of ukc and climb in the real world.

I know, I know. 

Yeah theres a few pegs on the message, one at the top of the slabby step before the bottom of the first corner, and one in the corner its self iirc

Except there's been a movement to minimise peg placements on Scottish winter routes for at least 25 years. On some routes they are perhaps your only option but with modern gear they are arguably less and less needed. 

Protection hasn't really changed over the last 25 years though.

Nuts are still nuts, just colourful, same for cams and hexes. Some are a little lighter, some a little heavier but no ground breaking difference. BD screws have been around all that time too. 

Ice tools and crampons have changed but these aren't protection per se.

I don't want to see someone getting hurt because they swallowed the no peg posturing often evident on here. 

I empathize with that sentiment more closely than you might expect! 🙂 https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/chasing_the_very_bloody_epheme... - just read the intro to see why.

Gulp! 

There's none of that on this thread though is there?

And to be honest I'm not really aware of it being a thing at all. Most winter climbers carry them, most recognise them as a last resort. Mainly because they're a pain in the arse rather than any sort of general anti peg feeling.

Not yet but you and I have been around the block enough to know how these discussions go. Calling peg users knobs is pretty close. 

Around 25 to 30 years ago, when I started winter climbing, there was a strong push towards pegs following a spate of fatalities due to failed belays. (hazy memory of this)

As I stated earlier, protection hasn't really changed since then, it just got a bit prettier. Pegs are still useful, carrying and using them should be encouraged. 

I moved to Glasgow to start uni and to be able to go to the Highlands as much as possible in 1992, and became pretty obsessive about winter climbing from then on. I don't think there was a "spate" of accidents around failed belays, I can think of one specific incidence of team who were killed falling out of Minus One, I think it was. That was probably winter 93/94. As I remember it the belay was a couple of friends in icy cracks, and it pulled after some runners had pulled. I remember that definitely being the start of the understanding that cams don't work on ice glazed cracks so were dangerous for belays in such conditions.

It happened in one of the winters where there were many deaths - there was an accident on NE Buttress where a climber was injured in a fall but tried to re-lead the pitch and took a worse fall, and died of his injuries and the MRT managed to get to his second and get him off before he died of exposure - it was all pretty horrendous. It was the same winter I think as the "Guinness Lady" who fell through the cornice somewhere in the central Highlands I think when walking  - wasn't found for a number of days, but survived. Then there quite a few deaths in avalanches or slips of hill walkers and descending climbers, particularly on Ben Nevis. I wrote a report on media coverage on mountain rescues and accidents for my sociology degree, (I think I deemed it "a failed construction of a moral panic" no less! ) and somehow ended up being interviewed on Radio Scotland about it! It was pre- any media being on the internet as I remember going through all the weekend and monday editions of the Scottish paper on micro-fiche in the library. 

So definitely an understanding that passive gear was better than cams if there was any risk of ice, and that pegs had their place if necessary, but I don't really remember there being a push towards peg use as such. By modern gear I really meant nuts, including reliable small nuts, being the norm, and could replace bigger pegs that climbers in the 70s and even 80s probably used more. Cams as well. I think also as many moved from warthogs to bulldogs/spectres, many people figured you can hammer them into many pin cracks if need be, so again it lowers the number of pegs you might choose to carry. I reckon I've got three I carry now, probably double that back in the 90s including a couple of channel pegs where you'd probably get a nut or small cam these days.

I bought a  knifeblade in erm.. 1995? Not used it yet

Not sure what you mean there, as I said above I'm not aware of any general anti-peg feeling on here.

Like Toby I don't remember the above and I've been climbing for a similar length of time.

Nobody is arguing against carrying pegs but I don't think their use should be encouraged as such. I wouldn't encourage the use of any particular type of protection, I'd encourage the use of what's best in any given situation. If that's a peg, use a peg but it's rarely a peg in my experience.

I notice some editing of my first paragraph in your quote. Re read the thread, the first pitchfork has already been raised.

We will have to differ on the belay thing but the clear message is belays are important, make them good. The judge of this can only be the climber.

I almost edited my statement from "should be encouraged" to "should not be discouraged". I think it fits better. 

If you're talking about the post by 'a crap climber' I didn't read that as 'using pegs is a knobbish thing to do'. It wouldn't have been my choice of words but I read it more as 'sometimes people do knobbish things in the hills'. I remember someone boasting about the number of pegs they'd placed on a winter route that didn't need them and was also a good summer route, that seems pretty knobbish!

That said, I think we can agree that peg use shouldn't be discouraged.

And you totally ignore the fact that in this case the pegs were not needed and probably not as good as the althernatives.

I don't see what difference peg placement in the context of the op actually makes. It doesn't change the appearance or character of the route. If the "villains" felt it necessary to place them, so be it.

Those nut slots referred to may well have been created by previous peg use. 

Please remember, Millstone wouldn't be Millstone without historic pegging. 

I definitely wasn't calling them villains! I was just a bit surprised (and happy) that I could build a solid belay without. And if I'm going to get a couple of knife blades I'd like to know what the general consensus is on their use - historically they were ok at millstone but I'd expect to get lynched if I placed one now.

Fair point, my choice of words was overly harsh. As DaveHK said, I wasn't trying to suggest placing a peg automatically makes you a knob.

Just for clarity, I agree that if you need to place a peg to be safe, then place the peg. It's not worth risking your safety for the sake of peg free ethics, which as you said isn't a winter climbing thing anyway.

In the context of the op, using pegs where you can place perfectly good nuts seems a little odd to me. Obviously there may have been legitimate reasons, such as running out of nuts which I mentioned. I wasn't there so I guess I should refrain from judging or making snide comments. 

As an aside, a lot of people here seem to be advocating a pegs as a last resort approach, which is certainly what I do. This means though that I place them extremely rarely, maybe on average something like one a season. With so little practice, I don't tend to trust them the same way I would a well placed nut, as I don't have much experience of using them beyond desperately whacking the hell out of one and hoping for the best. This probably reinforces the no peg attitude in a kind of positive feedback loop.

Most routes there don't require pegs, it's just a matter of putting stances in the right place and having a scratch around. I'd consider having a separate set of wires for winter, as sometimes they can be persuaded in with the pick (carefully)! Carrying two small ones is a good insurance policy, if snow height on the gully walls means you're too high or low for the usual places, this winter being lean might have meant you were under traditional stances and anchors. 

Seem to remember a peg nest at the first pitch on Fallout corner that I always thought completely superfluous.

Don't particularly remember that at all. 

Peg use is pretty much self limiting anyway. A pain to place and probably a better/quicker opting opting if you look around anyway + plus modern tools make it awkward.

Now if you want to start a proper debate, how about in-situ peg belays.

My mates.

Thinking of the peg on Bowfell Buttress, I would plead for "restrained and judicious use", rather than unnecessary hammering.

Very sorry to hear that. I remember there was a real feeling of sadness that winter because of the number of fatalities, and actually some were falls from climbs which, thankfully, is actually really rare - as opposed to slips on descents or avalanches etc. Don't want to drag up sad memories, but are my memories of what happened basically what you understand happened?

Last resort.

Essential peg ethics:  it's best not to die.

Don't google pegging on a work's computer.

Visit Derbyshire, the historical home to pegging

Good points.

It might be a bit different if you are an inveterate bumbly snow-thrasher and gully groveller like me! I find that snow and ice gully routes often need pegs, and some of the easier mixed routes on Bidean (although not the Buachaille) are safer with pegs too.

When I've done stuff on Meggy, I've found pegs an absolute godsend! Loads of superb horizontal cracks with bombproof angle and knifeblade placements!

I find that vertical cracks are nearly always better protected with nuts, unless they are very shallow and then a good knifeblade can be crucial to avoid me following through!

I usually take 2 blades and 2 angles when I go climbing (unless it's an easy mixed route in the Norries or Buachaille). I used to take a kingpin, but they are very heavy and angles tend to hold better anyway.

I never found out the actual detail. I remember travelling from Oxenholme to Glasgow, buying a Guardian, flipping it open and seeing their faces. I didn’t really know anyone from their climbing scene in Skipton, so only knew they’d fallen from Minus One. Bloody good climbers - they’d done loads of Scottish classics and trips to La Grave etc. 

Ed: Malcolm Stork and Nigel Walton. Legends. RIP. 

Malcolm was such a great guy, would bump into him and partner regular as clock work on the Ben always a fun and psyched team, always been very grateful for the loan of a down jkt  for the Freney pillar, as he was heading home, ended up  bivying in a crevasse just below the summit in relative comfort thanks to him. 

Multiple pegging belay. I now have this image in my mind and can't get rid.

Donk, donk, ding ding ding = good

Donk, donk, donk, donk = not good

donk, donk, donk, ding, ding, ding, donk = it was good, but you just broke it

Vertical knife blade/arrow - handle with care.  Vertical knife blade - eye at the top if you can, to get a twist.  Vertical leeper (if you can find one) - always eye at the top

Whilst some winter routes take less-travelled summer pitches, lots don't and go up classic routes (e.g. Centurion (Winter) (VIII 8)).

If the ethical consideration is preservation of the rock a light icing does bugger all to prevent peg scarring. If it is on the grounds of 'but it makes it safer' why is a similar thing on a scary and runout route at Gogarth tantamount to a lynch mob (as we saw on a 250 reply thread last summer - or was it Pembroke?). The only remaining argument could be 'because this is what has been done before' - but both pegging and anti pegging is rife throughout summer and winter climbing history?

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To those who are saying 'pegs are a last resort', this is just wrong, and a dangerous mindset to be preaching on here to less exprienced folk. Pegs (and i include bulldogs/terriers in this bracket) are placed when they are the best/safest option available in the given situation. protecting winter climbs is a dangerous enough endevour as it is half the time, without hamstringing yourself by limiting your use of all the tools available. sure a small nut or cam may fit in the same slot as a peg, and sometimes it may fit better. but the reality is it will probably be allot worse! every route is different and every situation is different, but you should never not place a bomber peg because you could have placed an OKish nut instead, that is just asking for trouble! 

I think you've misunderstood what I at least mean by 'pegs are a last resort'. It means I'll always take a good nut/cam/thread over a peg and therefore a peg is the last thing I'll try. It doesn't mean I'll place a poor or mediocre nut etc where I could get a good peg, that would just be silly and it's pretty clear that no one on this thread is advocating that.

Over the years I've very rarely been in situations where I couldn't get a good nut but could get a good peg. It does happen but it's far more common to fail to get a good nut and settle for a shit peg and that's definitely a last resort!

It also doesn't account for the difficulty of placing pegs when you're not standing in a relatively stable position. We've probably all wiggled a nut in or slammed a cam in while desperately hanging of a tool one handed with feet on dodgy holds or wobbly thin ice placements. Try getting a knifeblade in one handed in the same position!

Yes, I was also thinking about that. Even with a decent, old school hammer they are often hard to place.

agreed of course, but the OP was alluding to a belay specifically, and lower grade routes generally. you are always going to have some kind of stance at a winter belay, even if it is just a kicked out snow ledge. so you are always going to have your hands free to place pegs, and should do so if its the best option as both/all your lives are at risk! and sure on the steeper harder routes, placing pegs mid pitch is likely to be nearly impossible, but you are also likely to have more suitable cracks available for gear, as that is presumably what you are climbing. it is the low-mid grade snow/ice gullies where pegs are most likely to be usefull, and at times may be the only good gear. and before you all start saying "its below grade x, you dont need much gear!", firstly, dificulty is all relative, and secondly, even the most experienced winter climber can still get caught out on some dodge snow/ice on what should otherwise be a romp.

Someone magically placed a peg on the top of The Stirling Bomber (V 7) going by the log books alot of people cant even clip it let alome place it. Even on top rope i could only stand on that peg.

People who placed many original pegs are nails

Yes, of course. One hand needed to place a cam or nut. Two hands to place a peg.... not easy on vertical walls 

Sometimes you can place a peg by hand and then hammer it in properly - all one handed.

Plus sometimes when you can't quite clip the peg, as its too close to the rock, you can thread through or round, or slot a nut, or hook. I rarely used pegs but was very greatful I carried them a few times.