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Sometimes I almost wish that I was Christian..

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 veteye 16 Feb 2022

I don't usually like the style of singing of the BBC singers, as they are too warbly for me: But tonight they did a concert on Radio 3 of "Lamentations" from around about the Elizabethan times, but also some modern commissions. The concert, for me, was brilliant, with a much more pure tone and approach to singing. So I was lucky that I listened by a lazy default of just turning the radio on, and getting on with making my late tea, as normally my mind is turned off by the idea of the BBC singers, and I consider listening to a documentary or Classic FM, or Planet Rock.

So I wish that I had a few more excuses to go and listen to English choral music (I'd consider joining a church or cathedral choir, (if I believed), as I did when I was a youngster). 

Any other lovers of this sort of choral music amongst the rock gods tonight?

 alx 16 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

Sometimes the odd piece makes it up the charts in Classical FMs hall of fame.

this is pretty good, 

youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ&

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 mountainbagger 16 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

I'm a big fan of both rock and choral music (on the rare occasion, even together!)

I was raised Catholic but am now atheist (well, I have a completely metaphorical interpretation of all religions but let's not get into that!)

My wife has always been an atheist but bizarrely was in a church choir as a teenager.

I used to sing in a choir many years ago (soprano then bass when my voice broke). I really enjoyed singing (as a bass) things like Fauré's requiem and a lovely piece also by Fauré called Cantique de Jean Racine. I also really like the less warbly early music (often sung by Emma Kirby) of which Stabat Mater by Pergolesi is a good example (of the sort of thing I like)

There are many amateur choirs/choral societies out there who sing church/religious music who do not require you to be religious (and you only need to be passably good at singing too) should you wish to do that.

Post edited at 21:57
 65 16 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

Despite being a rabid anti-theist I love choral and scared music.

I'll check that out.

For something much older but in a similar theme, try Tielman Susato, Hieronymous Praetorius, Guillaume Dufay and also check out the catalogue of The New London Consort, especially The Pilgrimage to Santiago. A favourite, appropriately given my Pyrenean fetish, is Febus Avant (from the court of Gaston Febus) by theHeulgas Ensemble. If they don't move your, ahem, soul, there's something wrong with you.

One of life's great joys for me is a day's drive through the length of France on quiet roads with this kind of music blaring in the car. I should try it here more often, instead of the usual 'fire in a pet shop' jazz or noise/punk.

I also love Welsh, Corsican and Georgian polyphonic singing, and the traditional Bulgarian women's choirs.

Most of this stuff is on Spotify.  

 65 16 Feb 2022
In reply to mountainbagger:

> I also really like the less warbly early music (often sung by Emma Kirby) of which Stabat Mater by Pergolesi is a good example (of the sort of thing I like)

Ohh yes....

 freeflyer 16 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

Yes. Just been to a concert including this:

youtube.com/watch?v=UnilUPXmipM&

and the Haydn Paukenmesse, which was new to me and I really enjoyed.

Many lay people in the church, um, don't have religion as their top priority in life, if I can put it that way although some do, of course. Live and let live, and everyone likes a bit of good music. I also did the cathedral choir thing, and it was my introduction at age 8-11 to thinking like a professional. Brilliant experience.

In reply to veteye:

Allegri's 'Misere Mei, Deus'. Utterly sublime. I was lucky to catch the Surrey Youth Choir singing it one day in Guildford.

I have caught evensong in Winchester cathedral in the past, but was rather appalled by the readings. Had to restrain myself from standing up and saying "but that's all bollocks, isn't it?" Since you sit in the choir, it's not so easy to quietly get up and walk out...

3
 Smelly Fox 16 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

I was once getting driven between rig sites in Northern Kenya, while working with an Egyptian crew. They were quite orthodox Muslim, and I orthodox atheist (although none of us were dicks about it).

The music they put on in the clapped out 4x4 we were questing through the desert in  was some of the most stunning I’ve ever heard. It was simply a guy singing (I presume passages of the Koran, but my Arabic is non existent) with no other distraction. No beat, no instrument, just the dudes voice. Some of the most haunting and hypnotic stuff I’ve ever heard. It was truly awesome.

Post edited at 23:54
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 KevinJ 17 Feb 2022
In reply to Smelly Fox:

I would agree on that.  Living in Egypt just now, I hear quite a bit of that on the radio. Can be quite relaxing on long taxi journeys. 

 

 Doug 17 Feb 2022
In reply to KevinJ:

One of the most mesmerising concerts I've ever seen was the late Pakistani singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan & his group. I didn't understand a word of the lyrics, am not religous, but was completely entranced.

OP veteye 17 Feb 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

I sang Allegri's Mozart remembered Misere many moons ago when I too was a choirboy in a cathedral choir; before it became popular. I used to love seeding into the top C. Yet I would find it hard to comply with the Christian rituals and belief routines, if I were to join a choir, as I believe in nothing higher than humans: Sadly as we are a pitiful mess, as supposedly top species.

OP veteye 17 Feb 2022
In reply to mountainbagger:

I replied to you last night, but as I sent the reply, the UK Climbing website seemed to go down under error 54 or some such thing.

I too love the purity of tone, and clarity of Emma Kirby, and see her as the apogee of singing of early music as well as some baroque music.

Last time there was the Sing-along-a Messiah, in Peterborough Cathedral, I went along as bass to add to the numbers in the Peterborough Choral Society. I was placed next to the chairman of the society, who was amazed that I had only looked through the whole of the bass part for the very first time a couple of days before the recital. He said "so essentially you are sight-reading this", which I was. I was offered the chance to join the group, but never got round to it, partly due to work, and partly due to a pandemic. Possibly I should look again at the idea as lockdowns fade. It would have to compete with the climbing wall to some extent though.

OP veteye 17 Feb 2022
In reply to Smelly Fox and Doug:

I know of the sort of music which you write of. I think that it has something to do with certain pitches of the human voice, which have both musical and psychological inherent sonorities that tune us in, and entrance us.

 wercat 17 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

We listened by candlelight during a power cut.  It was divine. Worth the power cut.

With eyes half closed just to allow the candlelight to show I felt myself slipping back through the centuries. 

perhaps even Brian Redhead's Christian Centuries.  I'd rather like to hear that series again.

Post edited at 09:53
 jcw 17 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

I am one of the many brought up with a Christian background turned atheist but apart from the fact that I couldn't live without the beauty of the great classical masses which can be heard in concert performances Orthotdox church music of different kinds, notably Russian, deeply moves me and I will happily sit in a church service to hear it in its proper context.

 Tringa 17 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

My tastes include Steely Dan, The Who, Led Zeppelin, Frank Zappa, Grateful Dead, Stones, Captain Beefheart, ELO, The Budos Band, and lots of blues and I don't have a religious bone in my body, but early choral music is brilliant.

Dave

cb294 17 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

As I always say about my cultural background (German protestant) vs my scientific, materialist, atheist world view:

I don't believe in Jesus, but I do believe in Bach!

For me his Mass in B minor and the two Passions are the absolute pinnacle of religious choral music, with the music matching the words perfectly. "Ruhet wohl, ihr heiligen Gebeine" from St. Johns passion and "Wir setzen uns in Tränen nieder" from St. Matthews passion always send shivers down my spine!

I thinks that both eclipse Händel's oratories, but Händel is of course the much greater composer of non-religious music, and I absolutely love his operas. Giulio Cesare with Andreas Scholl and Alessandro with Max Emanuel Cencic are my current favourites.

There is also loads of slightly earlier barouqe choral music well worth listening to, e.g. the Psalms of David by Heinrich Schütz, or Dietrich Buxtehude's Membra Jesu Nostri.

As for Pergolesi's Stabat Mater, I recommend not the Kirby recording mentioned above, but the recording with Yulia Lezhneva and Philippe Jarrousky.

Even earlier vocal music can be difficult to listen to (for my ears at least). I enjoy it in the right setting (e.g. an old church), but less so at home. The only thing I sometimes put on the CD player is a recording called "Officium" by the Hilliard ensemble which mixes early Renaissance hymns with Saxophone improvisation by Jan Garbarek. Sounds weird, but IMO it really works!

That said, on my phone currently I have Bach, Händel, Mozart, Beethoven, Bruch, Sibelius, but also lots of Americana and indy folk (Gillian Welch, Will Oldham), blues (Son House), blues rock (ZZ Top), hard rock (Motörhead) and old school metal (Slayer). Make of that what you will....

CB

 Tringa 17 Feb 2022
In reply to cb294:

> I don't believe in Jesus, but I do believe in Bach!

That is a good one.

Agree about Pergolesi.

Dave

In reply to cb294:

So much agree about Bach, particularly "Ruhet wohl, ihr heiligen Gebeine" from the St. John passion. I think the SJP is one of the greatest pieces of music in history. For me, it's less to do with religion than human emotion, the last ¾ hour or so going through a vast range of emotions - all the emotions in fact. Absolutely intense, yet witheringly beautiful at the same time.

Post edited at 12:14
 Tony Buckley 17 Feb 2022
In reply to 65:

> instead of the usual 'fire in a pet shop' jazz 

That's a particularly good description of a significant part of my music collection, thank you for phrasing it so well.

> traditional Bulgarian women's choirs

Once upon a long time ago, I was in Sofia cathedral around lunchtime on Christmas Eve and the choir were rehearsing for the midnight mass service.  Absolutely sublime.

T.

 Matt Podd 17 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

Semp in Alium, by Talliss is superb. 4 separate choirs singing. Polyphonic singing at its best. I asked for it to be there later at my funeral!

 althesin 17 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

This one takes me back 40 years in 3 bars.

  youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_mjuS-fgM&

I think it was because it had a good plot

another ex choirboy

 Bobling 17 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

Spent way, way, way too much of my youth in draughty churches singing in choirs.  I distinctly remember realising that I may as well be worshipping Zeus as Jesus (The Children's Illiad was one of my favourite books).  Cue a dissolute youth listening to beats and rock and roll and general partying.

Fast forward 20 years and I am still agnostic (such a cop out) but the music of my youth draws me back and Radio 3 is my constant companion, having decided I can live without the misery of the news when I am in the kitchen.  Radio 3 brought me to the Hilliard Ensemble and Jan Garbarek like you cb, wonderful stuff.  For long WFH days my go to accompaniment is "Through the Night" on Radio 3, fitting title for the last couple of years!

The thing that boggles my mind is the sheer size and complexity of the classical music back catalogue, I reckon I might have some sort of handle on it by the time I am 70 or so if I make it that far.

OP veteye 17 Feb 2022
In reply to Tringa:

I love much of what you cite, though sadly those groups are in increasing numbers not going to be performing. 

It is amazing how many people have that diverse breadth of musical appreciation with the likes of early music, and baroque classics such as the St Matthew passion.

Is there the same breadth of experience and love of music in people in their twenties and thirties today? I don't think that my children have it; at least not yet.

OP veteye 17 Feb 2022
In reply to cb294:

I love the Jan Garbarek/Hilliard musical links.

Ditto both Bach and Handel, as well as Tallis and Byrd, not forgetting White who was raised up a great deal by Radio 3. The latter apparently died of contagion at 35, and would have been truly great if he had lived longer.

I will have to search out the Lezhneva/Jarrousky.

All of these musical experiences can readily send those self serving shivers down my spine. After all that's a good deal of why we listen, is it not?

OP veteye 17 Feb 2022
In reply to Bobling:

Through the Night. I listen to the first part of it sometimes. Sometimes I catch the end of it before "Breakfast".

I like the program that sometimes is on on Radio 3 round about midnight (sic) on a Sunday night, where someone is invited on, to try some classical music, when they do not have much experience of the genre.

OP veteye 17 Feb 2022
In reply to althesin:

I was conducted by Francis Jackson on a couple of occasions when a choirboy. In fact by recitals and various RSCM courses, I visited at least the following cathedrals, and sang in them:

Bradford (Home/base), Wakefield, Sheffield, Leeds Parish Church.

Ripon, York, Manchester.

Lincoln, Birmingham

Wells, Truro, Exeter.

 Tom Valentine 18 Feb 2022
In reply to 65:

I'm always puzzled by the word polyphonic: it means two lines of notes played or sung together but seems to be used mostly in singing for the Corsican style of harmony which is to some ears very close to being discordant. Oddest of all is, as you say, the similarity to Georgian singing. I think some Basque stuff also has that same sound.

In reply to Bobling:

> The thing that boggles my mind is the sheer size and complexity of the classical music back catalogue

I'd say the back catalogue of modern music is massively larger. There were a relatively small number of composers working, whereas there are thousands of bands producing music. I guess the difference would be the number of recordings of versions of the classical catalogue.

In reply to cb294:

Talking of the St John Passion, I often - over the last 25 years, since I first heard it - go back to listening to "Betrachte meine Seel" ("Look yonder, oh my soul"), surely one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written. Such a perfect melody, so concise, that comes round in a full circle without a single wasted note. So awesome in its total perfection and understatement. If you ever need calming down, and need to listen to something totally 'beyond' in its beauty, listen to this. Of the trillions of versions out on the internet here are just two:

youtube.com/watch?v=Ruqy7J2AsLo&

and a beautiful, classic version conducted by Benjamin Britten, sung in English by Peter Pears. Awesome:

youtube.com/watch?v=VQOF5imS5pg&

 65 18 Feb 2022
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I know what you mean. I use the term lazily, and if someone put me on the spot and asked me to explain what it meant I'd struggler's to accurately describe it beyond referring them to the singing traditions listed above. I first heard the term when I went to Corsica and heard this amazing singing being played in a hut.

I'll check out the Basque singing, that would be a new one on me unless it's the slightly rambunctious choral singing that emanates from every bar during rugby matches.

Post edited at 08:50
cb294 18 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

The Pergolesi is here:

youtube.com/watch?v=h9ZET0kU9qs&

The actual recording is very slightly faster (I think, don't have it here to compare).

cb294 18 Feb 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

I see your Tallis Flashmob, and raise you a student flat performance of the Christmas Oratory;


youtube.com/watch?v=Wi0ekhf6_J0&

 duncan 18 Feb 2022
In reply to cb294:

> As I always say about my cultural background (German protestant) vs my scientific, materialist, atheist world view:

> I don't believe in Jesus, but I do believe in Bach!

> For me his Mass in B minor and the two Passions are the absolute pinnacle of religious choral music, with the music matching the words perfectly. "Ruhet wohl, ihr heiligen Gebeine" from St. Johns passion and "Wir setzen uns in Tränen nieder" from St. Matthews passion always send shivers down my spine!

I'm a materialist but culturally Presbyterian, and I have enjoyed Christian music since I can remember. Before my voice broke I sang in my village church because I enjoyed it despite being a confirmed atheist.

I've been to many performances of the Bach Passions, in churches, concert halls and opera houses. I can't express how wonderful this music is. There can be a further dimension to them that we miss by just sitting and listening though. The most satisfying performance I can remember was a reconstruction of an 18th century Lepzig church service incorporating the St John's Passion, at a Proms a few years ago. As I'm sure you know, Bach expected the congregation to join in with the chorales and we audience rehearsed these before the concert started. The only major omission was the sermon but the conductor John Butt encouraged us to preach to each other during the interval! 

We sang in inauthentic English but, as we were in Kensington not Lepzig, I'm sure Luther would have approved. As we gave a rousing 'Now Thank We All Our God' at the end of our two and a half hour collective experience, this heathen recognised those German Protestant were on to something.

 pneame 18 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

I really love this - Zwei Slawische Psalmen (Arvo Pärt) -  youtube.com/watch?v=9vp9BK67FIc&

Annoyingly, my favourite version seems to have vanished from the 'net

OP veteye 18 Feb 2022
In reply to cb294:

I loved that. That quieted my soul this evening.

I will need to listen again.

I did not see who the chamber ensemble was, nor the date of the recording.

Thank you

Rob

OP veteye 18 Feb 2022
In reply to duncan:

When I was a boy soprano in the choir, we sang The St Matthew passion every year, each time in an English translation.  (And sadly, even now, I speak no German, as if you were good at French in year 1, then you did Latin as a second language, and only did German, if you were slightly less good at French, and if you were poor at language, you went on to do Technical Drawing.)

Thus, I always crease up in emotion when I hear the string lead into the final chorus of that piece, whilst thinking , "In tears of grief; Dear Lord we greet thee. Hearts cry to thee oh Saviour dear" or something similar.

cb294 18 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

Glad you liked it!

The ensemble is I Barocchisti, Diego Fasolis conducting. I think my link was to a recording session, but I just saw that the full recording I have at home is also on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTHwodbnTrs&list=OLAK5uy_l8RgxVA0ByyRgG...

and links therein to the following parts.

Cheers,

Christian

 mountainbagger 18 Feb 2022
In reply to cb294:

Well I've now listened to a whole load of different recordings of Stabat Mater by Pergolesi, but this is very good. I can't make up my mind between this and the Emma Kirby one or there's another one with two female voices, but I think this wins in terms of the way the voices work together. There's one with a boy soprano and countertenor apparently but I can't find it.

cb294 19 Feb 2022
In reply to mountainbagger:

This one?

youtube.com/watch?v=x8WRyrBQLsM&

The "boy soprano" is now a 53 year old baritone... The recording is from the early 80s and IMO excellent!

CB

 Welsh Kate 20 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

In the mid 80s I did the pilgrim route to Santiago with a group from my College Chaplaincy. We spent two days camping at the monastery of Santo Domingo de Silos in Burgos province. The monks use Gregorian chant in their daily services and it was beautiful, a very spiritual experience whatever your religious beliefs.

 mountainbagger 20 Feb 2022
In reply to cb294:

> This one?

> The "boy soprano" is now a 53 year old baritone... The recording is from the early 80s and IMO excellent!

> CB

Oh wow, that's amazing, thank you! What an interesting contrast to the others. Yes, it's excellent. Faster than some, but I don't mind it surprisingly (I thought I'd prefer slower versions).

Damo

OP veteye 20 Feb 2022
In reply to cb294:

> Glad you liked it!

> The ensemble is I Barocchisti, Diego Fasolis conducting. I think my link was to a recording session, but I just saw that the full recording I have at home is also on youtube:

I've not listened to that yet, but I did hear the slightly different Pergolesi recording from a Parisian group (Radio France connection), which was played on Record Review, yesterday on Radio 3. It is just coming out at the moment, and it is with a slightly different bent. Worth listening to. It comes near to the end of the program.

 BusyLizzie 20 Feb 2022
In reply to cb294:

> This one?

> The "boy soprano" is now a 53 year old baritone... The recording is from the early 80s and IMO excellent!

> CB

That is heart-achingly beautiful. Thank you!

 BusyLizzie 20 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

I spent a big chunk of my life doing a lot of parish church music, both singing and playing the organ. What to do with all that musical wealth when faith walks away is a bit of a puzzle. The music remains wonderful but the emotions that go with it need adjustment.

The Pergolesi "Stabat Mater" mentioned above was new to me. It doesn't need religion to get straight to my heart-strings.

There's always something new to discover. Vivaldi's "Nisi Dominus" was a lovely surprise a few months ago.

cb294 20 Feb 2022
In reply to mountainbagger:

I have a personal link to Baroque music, and in particular Bach's vocal music, performed by boy altos and sopranos, as my son sung in the Dresden Kreuzchor until his voice broke.

Even if we were living in the same city at the time he had to live at boarding school, during the week as they had so many rehearsals, individual voice trainings, instrumental lessons etc. that they had to be available all day. He would come home on Friday evening, but every second week they would have the choir vesper on Saturday evening and the main service on Sunday as well.

It really was a full time professional job for these young  boys!

CB

edit: forgot to add, if you think the boys would enjoy forgetting about classical music for a while when at home you could not be further from the truth. My son, as all his classmates, would spend Sunday on his bed, listening to, say, St. Matthews passion with the sheet music in his hands, singing along with the solo parts of their respective voice.

Indeed, there is a great recording of the Christmas oratory by the Thomaner choir from Leipzig, where at their 800 year jubilee perfomance the soprano soloist and both replacements fell ill right before the concert. No problem, they just pulled their two main boy sopranos to the side, and told them to split the solo part as they knew they could sing it by heart anyway, no rehearsals needed!

Post edited at 19:48
 BusyLizzie 24 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

If you want to sing Tallis' Lamentations, I see there is a choral workshop in April:

https://fb.me/e/1hoAvCLfT

OP veteye 24 Feb 2022
In reply to BusyLizzie:

Thank you for pointing that out. Are you going?

I probably won't be able to get the time off, and it is not performing it to an audience either, which is part of the mustard that put's you on the spot, to perform in a more incisive way: Yet I'm not ruling it out.

In reply to Welsh Kate:

> The monks use Gregorian chant in their daily services

My favourite is the classic "we are Gregorians!"...

OP veteye 24 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

I must be tired. How idiotic of me. I refer to the totally incorrect placing an apostrophe in my phrase. ( I think that it has something to do with typing, as opposed to writing with a pen or pencil).

OP veteye 25 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

BBC singers on Radio 3 tonight from Oxford for early music festival. That should be good if they stay away from the warbling still. I think that it is at 7.30pm

 BusyLizzie 25 Feb 2022
In reply to veteye:

> Thank you for pointing that out. Are you going?

> I probably won't be able to get the time off, and it is not performing it to an audience either, which is part of the mustard that put's you on the spot, to perform in a more incisive way: Yet I'm not ruling it out.

I know exactly what you mean. Likewise not ruling it out; need to look at the work diary nearer the time.


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