UKC

Looking for advice and ideas regarding a first time trip to the alps(ish). We’ve never been or done anything of that type scale before and so need some pointers really. We were looking sometime in the summer for maybe 10 days or so, probably driving over and camping to keep the costs and carbon down.

We’re looking to climb some big stuff basically. Mostly interested in rock routes rather than anything needing snow/ice gear as I’m consciously incompetent with all of that.

Overall we have a pretty good level of experience generally – we’ve done a healthy amount of common or garden multipitch stuff in the UK including N Wales and quite a lot of seacliffs.  I lead up to about E2 on most stuff and a bit harder if it’s my style, my partner is good seconding to about the same. I know that all of that probably won’t translate to alpine stuff but it’s more to give an idea really. I certainly wouldn’t want to try and start out even nearly at the top of our game.  

So, any ideas of areas that sound like they’d fit the bill? A good starter area with some big(ish) rock  routes. Nothing too hard necessarily, but with the option for progression. In an ideal world in a location that's preferably not too busy and with the option of camping. I realise that’s a lot of boxes to tick but any tips are appreciated.

Cheers

In reply to NaCl:

I suggest you get the Schweiz Plaisir rock guide or guides. There’s  endless lovely suggestions in there. Lots of multi pitch stuff up to and including 6a, mostly not involving snow, plus single pitch valley stuff for wet/off days. One good aspect of these books for novice Alpinists is the detail given on seriousness of the routes. Almost all done with symbols and topos, so no language issues. You could do worse than the Susten/Grimsel/Furka (they’re passes, in case you didn’t know) region. Being high up, you can get to lots of great spots without the expense of using huts.

I’m trying not to be envious.

In reply to NaCl: For “Alpine” stuff your really going to need an ice axe and crampons, and a bit of knowledge, even if it’s just for glacier approach’s. If you’re after multi-pitch routes in the mountains without ice gear you could try the Ecrins or Dolomites. In the Ecrins there is plenty of bolted and some trad mountain routes around Ailefroide and in the Cerces range. Routes like Ventre a terre (TD+) and Super Pilou (TD) might fit the bill.Also the  Aiguille Dibona has loads to go at. The Dolomites is the other obvious location that springs to mind. I would suggest early September might be the best time for snow free approaches.

In reply to NaCl:

Also there is always Chamonix, loads to go at from the Midi Plan level and in the Aiguille Rouge that will be accessible without ice gear.

In reply to all:

Thank you, gents. This is the sort of thing I was hoping for as we've got no idea about anything alps frankly.  I'll have a proper look at the above areas. 

I was using the term "alpine" quite loosely -  more in the context of 'climbing in the alps' than any actual technical term.  I/we've got little to no experience with anything too wintery so avoiding the need for crampons, axes and the like is most desirable.  I've no issue with gaining new skills but I suspect the learning curve may be steep enough anyway without introducing entirely new areas. 

In reply to NaCl:

Lots of good climbing  of all grades to be had without setting foot on a glacier ( but a few snow patches might need to be crossed early in the season or high up ).

You mentioned costs, in cost order Switzerland, Italy , Chamonix , Ecrins is a rough guide. Less popular areas can be a lot cheaper, even a few kilometres can make a lot of difference.

Cheap living is possible with stealth and luck in Switzerland. Buy your food beforehand and a motorway vignette but be prepared for spot fines if you get caught.

The Furka pass is one of the easiest areas to find free camping.

In reply to NaCl:

You sound like someone that really should be thinking of going to the Dolomites. Hard to beat the Dollies for big rock routes without the faff of snow and ice. That said it’s a bit further to drive than the western alps…

In reply to NaCl:

If you're eligible then Jonathan Conville courses are a great (subsidised) way of learning alpine basics.   Open for applications at the moment.

Kicked off many happy years of Alpine mountaineering for me and probably saved my life a few times

In reply to NaCl:

Are you set on the Alps?

I think there are some staging places that develop the skills but are a bit less intimidating: For mountaineering, the Pyrenees or the Dauphine Alps.  For rock, the Dolomites or, in the Alps proper, the Aiguilles rouges.

In reply to NaCl:

I'm going to be slagged off for this but the Rockfax guide to Chamonix opens up a world of possibilities; in the 'good old days' the AC guidebooks were totally incomprehensible!

And if you have an axe and crampons, there are trips e.g using the Tour glacier that are are good place to start acquiring more alpine skills; so long as you have some common sense.

In reply to Rick Graham:

that was what I was hoping/vaguely assuming. When you say cost order I'm guessing that that's most->least expensive? Tbh re. stealth camping, if we're there for a week or so I was thinking to suck it up and get a campsite just for the ease and having an actual base.  

In reply to JLS and Moacs:

Nonono, not set on anything or anywhere at all hence the thread. I know I know nowt about this so was hoping for advice on suitable places and associated logistics. I love the idea of the Dolomites as I've always wanted to go but I wonder if the time to get there would make it prohibitive for a trip of this length. 

In reply to Sam W:

I've not come across the Jonathon Conville trust before, what a fantastic organisation. I wish I was altogether too many years younger and could qualify! Thanks for the thought though

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Won't get slagged off by me. I'll use and appreciate any advice. AFAICS Rockfax have changed the guidebook world only for the better by getting everyone else to up their game. We have got crampons and the like a while ago but haven't really had the opportunity to learn how to use them for the last couple of winters in the UK (I can't think why?!?)

In reply to NaCl:

If you are not wedded to high mountains but just want long rock routes you could do worse than Presles in the Vercors. Decent camp sites relatively close, no axe or crampons required and lots of 250m routes to choose from.

In reply to NaCl:

If you're going to drive then Pyrenees or Ecrins will probably be best, but if you're going to fly then dolomites or northern limestone alps might be more sensible - you don't have snow skills, so are essentially looking at multipitch rock without snow. This means summits up to 3,000m high in summer, and there's loads to do at lower altitudes in the Dolomites, Bavaria & Austria that fits that bill.

In reply to JLS:

Ditto for the Dolomites.

Drive Belgium - Germany - Austria to avoid most tolls or fly drive from cheap airports East of Milan. 

Get the paper Rockfax guide that covers the climbing and via ferratas - fun in their own right and occasionally a useful protected descent.

Various campsites all over.  Bubble cars to reduce the haul up hill.  No ice work.

Lots of huts too if you're an Austrian Alpine Club (Brittania Section) member https://www.alpenverein.at/britannia or have a BMC hut discount card. 

p.s. AAC membership includes mountain rescue insurance and hut discounts so less to think about.  They also run Snow and Ice training courses that cover ice axe use, moving on ice roped up, crevasse rescue etc etc so worth considering.  They have an Alpine Skills course in July covering moving together on rock and glaciers.  Click through to the training page and the Austrian courses.  (They have English language courses)

In reply to NaCl:

For your first time in the Alps, I would see strong arguments for heading straight to Chamonix - ease of access, interesting and buzzing alpine town, plenty of accommodation, gear shop and food options, loads of other climbers from all over the world ... oh and a massive range of some of the best granite in the world...!

Yes there are other less crowded, cheaper, potentially more interesting and less travelled places, but will be hard not to have an amazing time in the HQ of alpine climbing. The other advantage of Cham is that it there are many other climbing areas only a short(ish) drive away if needs be.

In reply to NaCl:  Personally I'm also in the camp that says go to Chamonix.  Yes it's a bit of a circus, but you can warm up on the Aiguille Ruuge doing some big old rock routes and then when you've done a couple of days of that and feel a bit more ready head over the Chamonix side. If you're not good with glaciers there's stuff to do on the M for example, or you can go get the teleferique to the Midi and go for a walk from there.

  It's all very convenient, so you should get best value from your 10 days

In reply to George.D:

Its also easy to make strong arguments against going to Chamonix for a first visit, in particular the often bad weather (eg compared to the Ecrins) & the crowds.

In reply to NaCl:

All the main centres like Chamonix, Switzerland, Dolomites or French Maritime alps, Beaufortain etc have numerous 5-15 pitch routes on rock.

E.g. Pointe Percee/Aravis above Sallanches , Ubaye/Queyras, Aiguille Pierre Andre. Good book is "Les Quat sup.". You can climb lightweight, fast, get really fit, watch out for loose rock, no messing with winter gear. Start easy, go fast, quit when you're ahead and get a beer by 6.30. No epics, enjoy it!

DC

In reply to NaCl:

For a first visit to the Alps, Chamonix. Most spectacular mountains in W. Europe. At E2 the worlds your oyster. Aiguilles Rouges to start, then the Chamonix side of the Aiguilles. The Mer de Glacé which in summer is a safe footpath gives access to Envers, where you can fully take in the ambience of the high mountains. Dozens of superb bolted routes on immaculate granite. I’ve never climbed on better rock anywhere. 

In reply to JLS:

Seconded, so long as NaCl is compatible with CaMg(CO₃)₂.

In reply to Philb1950:

Hi Phil

Off topic but is your view on Envers Granite in comparison to Yosemite and Patagonia?

FFIW I think City of Rocks Idaho takes the biscuit. We arrived in the dark and I ran my hands over the nearest rock, shouted back " I think we will like it here". Perfect friction on fine grained rock.

Edit Back on topic, for alpine granite the Envers, Cordier pillar, Blatiere,  Dru, Badile, Grauwand and Salbit are all top rank at least.

In reply to tallsteve/JLS:

I've had a quick recce and I think the Dolomites is definitely out this time as getting there is 14hrs+ odd from Calais. I'm not afraid of driving but that'll either wipe me out when I get there or take a healthy chunk of the holiday. Another time it'd be a cert' though as it looks frickin awesome. I'll make a note of the AAC as it sounds good. Thanks.

In reply to all:

Thanks all for sharing your thoughts on this. That's a lot of information and recommendations to work through. I suspect wherever we end up will probably be French-ey though, maybe the Ecrins, Cham or similar to keep the driving down as much as possible.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Totally agree with your recommendations for Cham. routes. I’ve never  climbed on better rock for enjoyment. My experience of Patagonia has generally been on the limit for me and very scary. I prefer the Envers area for the sheer number of quality easily accessible routes and very little is better in a climbers life than  sat outside the refuge with a beer and watch the Dru and Verte burn orange in the evening light, then off to bed dreaming of tomorrow.

In reply to NaCl:

Don't go to Chamonix. It's the wrong place to start.

I'd recommend starting with some bigger rock / mountain routes  - personally I'd recommend the Alpes Maritimes. PM me if you want some pointers at good routes to do.

Once you are happy with the speed you need to move at, and are comfortable with variable quality rock, then I'd think about looking at one of the easier glaciated areas. Arolla is very nice.

Only  go to the high Alps (Chamonix, Zermatt etc) once you understand the scale of the Alps, the potential for loose rock and objective danger, and are comfortable with glacier travel.

Steve

In reply to NaCl:

Chamonix is amazing but at the same time utterly dreadful. Hope that helps.

In reply to NaCl:

Especially if you are camping, you don't have to commit to one location.  The weather might be bad in Chamonix but good in the Ecrins.  Or, vice versa.   I'd keep several geographically diverse options open.

What you don't want to do is what many on here would recommend: go to Cham, go directly to Cham, do not consider anywhere else.  And, if the weather is bad in Cham, come home.

In reply to gooberman-hill:

I started in Chamonix - I liked it.

More on topic for OP - you said you were more interested in rock routes rather than traditional alpine? In which case I can't recommend the Envers enough. Fantastic routes from a few pitches to 25 on top quality granite. Alpine feeling, but bolts on the runouts and double bolt anchors at the top of every pitch. Leave boots/crampons/axe at the base of the routes so you don't have to climb with them. Get to stand on some of the smallest pointiest summits in the alps. Cheap hut to stay in. Walking up the Mer de Glace is very straightforward in the summer, I normally just wear trainers. You do need crampons/axe to get to base of routes from the hut, but it's very straightforward. Plenty to go at at E1/2.

In reply to NaCl:

The thing with Cham is that it has some of everything and what it has is of the highest quality.

Al

In reply to Fellover:

First time I went to Cham, I was 17 maybe 18. Leading E2/3, multipitch, no winter experience. (in the mid 80s). I scared the crap out of myself (and being that age I wasn't easily scared), both by the situations I got into, and those I saw other people in.

Chamonix is big, it is scary, and maybe it is better to find less intimidating places to start your alpine career. Especially if you don't have an experienced alpinist as a partner.

If you are heading out with similarly inexperienced mates, I recommend somewhere at a lower altitude, with shorter routes and less objective dangers.

For me the Alpes Maritimes fit the bill. Great quality granite routes up to about 400m long,the highest tops at just over 3000m, easy approaches (the odd snowfield), everything doable in a day from the valley, and quiet.

What's not to like?

Steve

In reply to NaCl:

The Grimselpass area of Switzerland has what you are looking for. Excellent granite, cragging, long multipitch and Alpine routes.

Try East Ridge (D) - if you are decent rock climbers it is a real classic but not too long and the summit is just over 3000m

Also have a look at  Gerstenegg for easy access cragging.

Going to chamonix and doing short routes off the midi lift like the Arete a Laurence (not even a valid climb) Cosmiques arete and Pointe Lachenal traverse isn't really anywhere near as memorable or good as doing a peak from a hut or bivi in the Ecrins or Switzerland. 

In reply to NaCl:

Chamonix for a first trip, the Piola guides for the Aiguilles Rouges. Probably heresy, but worth picking up ‘crag climbs in Chamonix’ as the valley climbing esp if you can climb English 5c/6a is just great fun, often multi pitch, well equipped and often with a Buvette at the bottom or the top. I always take a bouldering mat too as there are some great areas which have been opened up.

Expect camping to be pretty busy in Cham. There is a great campsite in Argentiere which is a little quieter, and well situated for everything plus a short trip over the border to the Swiss crags. There are also some 10+ pitch routes at decent grades which are well equipped up that way. You’ll also get a free bus pass for the valley which makes getting around the valley crags and telepheriques really easy. 

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Like you I have no problem recommending Chamonix for a first alpine experience.  If you want just rock there is plenty of it, if you want some snow and ice there is also plenty of that.  Yes it's big but I always found rock routes from the Envers hut, Refuge Du Plan and the Aig Rouges easier to access and to be less intimidating than a day on Cloggy. I think a distinction needs to be made between "Alpine Climbing" and climbing in the Alps. Cham can provide both in a small geographic area with good transport and easy access.  It is, of course, a hell hole with regard to tourism but you can soon leave all that behind.  Personally I always liked the contrast.  One minute you are a long way out at altitude and less than an hour later sat outside a bar on the high street smug and satisfied watching the world go by.  If anyone wants total peace and solitude Cham may not be the best choice however.

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Some of the climbing can block out all the people passing by. Those routes that go up the slabs to the side of the ladders down to the Mer de Glace at Montenvers can focus the mind that everything else is blocked out 😀

There’s also learning how to be ‘accommodating but firm’ with guides….

In reply to NaCl:

Try the Uri Alps: Salbiit, Bergsee

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/salbitschijen-3827/

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/bergseeschijen-9425/

Or Englehorner:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/engelhorner-9442/