UKC

I have been up Jack's Rake (Grade-1) many times over the years. Each time I do it I think to myself that for absolute novices it must be quite a daunting thing to solo. 

 Yesterday I met such a group. A lady, her partner and her father an elderly gentleman. They graciously allowed me past ( it was right at the start) with the comment " you can show us the way ". Chatting to them it was obvious that they wanted me to shepherd them up it. I explained that I had to push on as my friend was waiting at the tarn and expecting me back within the hour. I gave them what info. and advice I could before leaving them at the first groove.

 That night I couldn' t stop thinking about how they got on.  I felt a bit guilty for not staying with them but I had other people relying on me to get back at the arranged time.

My question is....what becomes of people like this? Do they succeed with the help of others? Do they back off? Do they get stuck halfway up and get rescued? 

I met another guy further up who was stuck and couldn't find the way off. Happily I was able to help him and still get down before my friend started to worry.

 But what happens to people like the first group I passed? There must be lots like this in summer.

Initial thought would be briefly explaining the potential dangers of a route like this and politely highlighting the fact if they needed “showing the way” they might be biting off more than they can chew.

Surely they would just turn back at that bit where you step over a kind of void. It's not like it's much harder down than up, is it?

I think what usually happens is people get on fine, since it is basically a steep non-technical path, arguably less serious than Crib Goch, and the excitement is part of the attraction. Other times, you see them bum sliding back down after 10m or so, slightly chastened. Occasionally they get cragfast. Sadly people (and animals) do fall off every couple of years or so, which is awful, but not as frequent as you might fear: https://www.lamrt.org.uk/category/location/jacks-rake

The worst I've seen was a very irate young guy and his poor girlfriend. She was having a misery of a time, scared and literally trying to crawl up it, and he was getting in a sulky mood, criticising her, telling her to hurry up, etc. We were belayed half-way up Brackenclock and were tempted to intervene verbally, but fortunately someone else coming downwards said something (probably: "it gets harder") and they turned around. I hope the experience lodged in her brain and she dumped him shortly after.

There are some in winter! Some years ago we arrived at Stickle Tarn with quite a lot of snow to find a group of folk of student age. Their “leader” was expounding on the detail of Jack’s Rake. It didn’t occur to me they were planning to do it, equipped as they were for a summer walk. We had a bite at the start of the rake and they arrived, clearly planning to do the climb. Leader had done it summer so no problem. Pretty soon about three of them were all dithering on the first rocky section, and one said she could go neither up or down. Fortunately I had brought 25 metres of nine mm rope and a sling or two. To cut a long story short I spent the next hour getting the three back down, in various levels of distress before we could go on with the route. As expected, it got icy higher up, and the crux move by the notch where at least one fatality has occurred was a serious proposition even with axe and crampons, so fortunate that the group got no further than they did. 

Can't speak from experience on Jack's Rake, but I had a similar encounter with a hopelessly out of their depth and scared father and son on Bristly Ridge. Didn't have any gear with me, but I did have time to stay with them and coax & guide them up the rest of the way to easy ground. 

I did this as my first named solo scramble, albeit preceded by a fair amount of unnamed messing around beforehand; it was dead exciting. I arrived at the car park at 8am, first car in, on a fine but low pressure morning in late May, and walked up to the scramble.

There was one move that I struggled with, the small pinnacle where you can either take on the exposure with easy moves up the outside or thrutch up the inside. I chose the latter and ended up with a huge tear in the arse of my trousers and some hurt pride, so I walked around the corner and had a chocolate break. At this point a guide and client passed by and he asked if everything was all right, to which I replied something along the lines of not expecting to be rock-climbing

He was clearly concerned, and when I caught up with them, he showed me the second hard move near the top which I managed quite easily, and left me wondering what would have been ... Still there we are. When I arrived at the top we had a little chat, and they left me ensconced in triumph on the top eating the remainder of my emergency rations.

I then wandered around on the top, got lost and found, and spent some time on the way down soaking up the view of Langdale in the spring. As I drove out back to the motorway after lunch mid-afternoon, it started raining.

A grand day out.

Took my 6 year old up Jack's Rake whilst mum and 2 year old messed about on the tarn beach. He just needed a steadying hand on his backside at the crux. 15 years later went back with both of them, younger no problem but had to rope the older one for the slabs near the top...

I descended it last year and several times people I passed said 'I'd never be able to do that'. It would have been churlish (but probably helpful) to suggest that it would be really useful if they could  down-climb Grade 1.

I once got to the top of Jack's Rake in full blown winter conditions kitted up for full blown winter conditions (crampons ice axe etc) and once I surmounted the final bulges on thick ice I came across a pair of brown brogues and some "ladies shoes" occupied by a couple dressed in camel hair overcoats, with thin leather gloves.  He had a scarf, she hair had a fur hat. They were lost and considering coming down Jack's Rake. 

"We left the hotel for a walk but the ipad lost the wifi and google maps stopped working and then the battery died, could you help?"...

Hope you had charger!

Sounds like the perfect way to ensure your partner never ever wants to go out in the mountains with you again. 

Scrambles and climbs are graded for a reason. So that people can gain some insight before they start out as to whether they should be able to complete them. Then there are the conditions on the day, both of the route and of the folks attempting them. So it's really difficult to generalize on what is the best advise to offer.

I was coming off Swirral edge in winter conditions. I met a young couple keen to reach the summit of Helvellyn and return.  They had decent walking kit including poles with them, but no axes or spikes. My advice to them was that it got harder further up and that there was also a little more snow further up,  but that they should be fine as long as they could navigate in the cloud and to take a look them selves, as it was easy to turn around and come back down.  They proceeded on as I bimbled down.  20mins later, as I sat bellow the cloud line enjoying a butty and the view over red tarn, they passed me again. Now heading down, having made their own decision, based on their own abilities and kit, that they should turn around and try another day.

We are all different and we all have to set our own limits and learn from are own experiences. 

I've done Crib Goch many times in snow through to dry sunny rock and the same for Jack's Rake.  Crib Goch is a stroll compared to Jack's Rake. particularly in conditions when inviting dry rock is beside damp and sometimes slimy rock.  Your post is very very misleading.  The objective dangers are not the same either - people (including climbers) have been killed by rockfall from above on Jack's Rake.

I can't believe you posted dodginformation like that.

The relative difficulty depends how you handle exposure.  I've known plenty of people 'freeze' on CG but I've never seen anyone suffer the same way on JR.

Well others have seen people affected by exposure on JR and some have had to help people off. The midway exposure on JR where the left arete of the groove drops away and the scrambling steepens) is huge. JR is a proper scramble where you use your hands... the problematic areas in terms of exposure on CG are especially scary to some because it has very exposed walking. Anyone who knows enough people with the variety of forms of vertigo will understand the different situations. Many who freeze on CG (or say Striding Edge) probably wouldn't even attempt JR.

I didn't post "dodginformation". Crib Goch is "arguably more serious" is what I wrote. Personally, I would stand by that, both because Crib Goch is very exposed on both sides and because it is much longer. In my view, Jack Rake is harder to fall off and less committing. But, as I said, this is "arguable".

Can you provide an example of when someone was killed by rock fall on Jack Rake? I've not heard of this ever happening, though there are some instances of people being hit and injured by rocks.

I'd agree CB is more serious a venue but only because risk relates to the skill sets of those attempting it. In my experience too many people get blagged into trying CB (it's just an exposed walk!!??) who wouldn't go anywhere near JR as it very obviously climbs a steep cliff.

There's something particular about Jack's Rake - the way it slants across the front of a big dark crag, and with the potential for being a drainage channel - that a lot of people, me included, find intimidating. I'd always felt daunted by the prospect - I can remember once sitting at Stickle Tarn, looking up at it on a nice day and still not fancying it - but around a decade ago I decided I "ought" to do it, so I teamed up with a Cumbrian pal, more experienced than me and who had been up Jack's Rake before, although admittedly not for around 30 years. It was a decent weather day but at the end of a wet week, and just a few minutes up the initial groove I started to get spooked. I was wearing fairly old boots which probably didn't help - they weren't as grippy on greasy rock as would have been ideal. My pal was ahead and, feeling rather embarrassed, I shouted up to him and said sorry, I know this was my idea, but I just don't fancy it. He was fine about it and we backed off to what felt more like terra firma.

We then went up Easy Gully right next to it! This is arguably harder than Jack's Rake - there's a school of thought that Easy Gully is "the hardest thing in Wainwright'' - and when we got to the chockstone section my pal (shorter than me) couldn't manage the awkward reachy move whereas I reckoned I could. I said that if I did it I wasn't then reversing it, so he'd have to retreat and we'd regroup once he'd come up by the North Terrace - which is what we did.

Anyway, I'm not much of a scrambler but I have done objectively harder things alone and without any problems - eg the Mhadaidh-Ghreadaidh-Thormaid stretch of the Cuillin ridge - but there was something about Jack's Rake that I just didn't at all fancy. I've looked across at it since that day, but I'm almost certain I'll never be tempted on to it again, and I can well understand why certain people get scared on it.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the perceived difficulties on those respective lines.  I can only speak about those I've done them with.

I was happy to take my then 5 year old daughter up JR because it is way more 'enclosed' and relatively easy to look after people on.

I'm not talking about relative difficulty as such. I'm talking about the different scenarios seen on the two scrambles, and their commonality. Your daughter being with you is very different from the inexperienced parties that might attempt something (and of those, the numbers who will tend to get into trouble). I've discussed both with the local mountain rescue teams.

Just search for Langdale Mountain Rescue and Jack's Rake and you will see the worst examples.

there isn't generally any risk of rocks falling on you for most of Crib Goch.  I've taken children on both routes.  There isn't anything unavoidable on Crib Goch as hard as the so called crux on Jack's Rake.  I've carried a large and very heavy radio up Jack's Rake and a heavy load on Crib Goch and I know which was harder by miles.  I also know which one is more dangerous from the point of view of slipperiness hiding in plain sight on a seemingly warm sunny day when an accident simply can't be just round the corner.  My brother knows someone whose climbing parter was killed by rockfall on Pavey Ark

ps I'd prefer to go up Jack's Rake when everything is running wet, even in rain rather than on a day when it's half and half, particularly with other people around.  Many times I've seen people's feet slipping because they think all the rock is dry.

see my post just made

I took my older son up Jack's Rake on a very fine dry day when he was 3 or 4, so I know what it's like with kids.  The second child did it when he was young enough to be carried to the crux and then roped up it which he did very easily.  Again on a carefully chosen day.

The same with Striding Edge and Sharp Edge with young children, with all appropriate protective equipment and gear.  The eldest ascended Swirral Edge on a rope and toddled to the summit when he was too young to walk up to Red Tarn.  All scenarios were carefully planned and executed.

I would agree of course that the length of the day involved with Crib Goch makes it serious for children but not for well equipped adults in suitable weather.

I'm always impressed by people who can 'back off' something. Much like Walter Bonatti backing off what would have been the first solo ascent of the Eiger North Face in 1963, albeit yours was on a smaller scale.

Thanks - I'm not fit to be mentioned in the same sentence as Bonatti, but I agree it is a bit of a thing to retreat in any situation where you've specifically gone to do something. In weather terms it quite often happens (for me at least), especially in winter - flexibility, changing plans as you go etc. Maybe a fine-weather retreat simply due to feeling spooked/uneasy is harder - but is something that becomes easier to do again once you've done it once.

Years before my Jack's Rake outing I was on a very steep grassy hillside at the far end of Loch Katrine with a couple of friends. We'd walked quite a long way to get there and the hill above the steep lower section was very much the day's target. It was one of those winter days when there's not really any snow or ice but the ground is hard as a bone and you start to realise that there's scope for slipping and falling down what in summer would be a straightforward tussocky hillside. I began to feel very uneasy that day too - and again retreated, with my pals carrying on this time and me later meeting them by a less steep route. And I knew exactly why I felt this way: just a couple of days earlier I'd been at the funeral of someone who had fallen off Beinn Ime. I'd only known him a little, but he was a relative of one of my dearest friends - and suddenly, halfway up that slope above Loch Katrine, I had an overwhelming urge to prevent, if at all possible, my friend going to a second funeral in quick succession. So it was an easy - if again slightly embarrassing - decision to back off, and I think it led to the Jack's Rake decision years later being an easier one to make.

Thanks for the link.

Wednesday, 9 October, 2013 - 20:50

Three intrepid explorers went exploring, at 4pm. But without a map or torch.. so when it went dark they had to stop exploring because there was nothing to see... including the way down... we went a showed them the way... I hope they won't make the same mistake again

I always found JR to be a fairly nasty scramble; it's certainly not one of those "romping up good clean rock in a marvellous position" type lines. A bit like Broad Stand, the difficult moves are short but potentially fatal. There are much nicer things to do in the area (including the beck up to the tarn, which has some lovely scrambling above the big terraced waterfall).

Some days I think the list of things I have backed off exceeds the list of things I have done. It doesn't of course, but the running away with tail between legs days tend to stick in the mind more than the uneventful days. Perhaps this explains not being dead yet.  I think a low point for me was abbing off Milestone Buttress having failed to spot the hand traverse as being a hand traverse. In my defence it was sleeting and I was very hung over....!

b

I wouldn't describe it as nasty - I'm surprised it's attracted so much approbation on this thread. Before I climbed I thought JR looked an exciting and improbable line up the immensity of Pavey Ark. Now, years later, it seems a more amenable descent route than many other climbers' descents in the Lakes: a steep path on which the main hazard is other people. There are far better walks in the Lakes, though.

I fail to grasp why the excitement, jakes, CG or even broad stand, they are sections of steep rock, not walks. Within their grades, exposure and difficulty will vary, rock types will dictate the style of climbing (slabby, blocky...), or even friction or lack of when wet. The problem is the lack of understanding in novice walkers that these are a level up from a path and that a few easy moves will feel much different when looking down 200 or 300m. Unless you have the kit available and skills to use it they aren't the places to take novices, scrambling is arguably the most dangerous of mountaineering activities, perceived low risk of falling with potentially fatal consequences. 

For climbers, scrambling is usually an easy bit of fun (in good conditions). Walkers see us on scrambles and those that don't immediately think "that's not for me" will just see a normal bod soloing up a scramble without difficulty and are likely to think "I can do that". They obviously don't know the climbing experience that allows "us" to make scrambles look easy.

As well as that, there are a lot of people out there who seem intent on having a try for a Darwin award.

Then you would find my climbing inspiring.

Which is why I asked the question " what happens to these people"?

I would agree that scrambling can be one of the most dangerous of outdoor pursuits.

When I am trad climbing the gear is there and I can use it to escape and back off, if needed.  The whole exercise, is one of controlled risk. A very enjoyable one at that, but I never have to push the risk further that I am comfortable with.  Though I appreciate others push their limits far more than I ever will.

Scrambling you can find your self in situations that are more difficult to easily and safely retreat from.  There have been several bottom twitching moments kneeling on wet grass above a crag, when I have though, this is not a good/safe place to be.  That is not a feeling I get when climbing.  Climbing I am focus on climbing. It's disciplined and controlled. Scrambling I am often just out for a walk and think, oh I can get up that.  On those occasions when I bite of a bit too much the climber does kick in though.  Focus and sort it out. The fact there is no gear backing you up is pretty irrelevant at those moments, so no point thinking about it. I can't really appreciate the fear others clearly feel in such situations. But I can understand how it comes about.

It's not a bad thing if scrambling on unfamiliar terrain to wear harness, helmet, carry a few wires, couple of hexes and 25m or more of rope. Stack the odds in your favour. 

I fully agree, I have an 8.4mm 30m rope that I take if I am planning such an adventure.  But then in my head I am climbing, the grades are just different.

It's the casual, that looks fun scrambles, completely unplanned, when you just go for something that looks easy fun and then find out the top 10ft are a mix of lose gardening and waterfall.  All too easy to get into, without even trying and then can suddenly become quite dangerous.  That is the thing with scrambling it is so easy to get sucked in.  It's a bit like crossing the road. You take it for granted that you can do it and sometimes people get it wrong.   I don't get that trad climbing, I find my mind set is different from the off, far more focussed and organised and ready for the dangers.

I was just about to make much the same point: I'm a bit confused by the modern-ish idea that scrambling can involve a rope and various pieces of protection. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but when I started out around 40 years ago the distinction seemed pretty clear - there were three categories: walking, scrambling (basically walking but with use of hands on occasion) and climbing (ropes and stuff). When did that change?

As mentioned upthread, I've never been much of a scrambler but I did used to quite often go out with various people who (in my absence) would do what to my eyes was fairly hard scrambling (Curved Ridge, middling-hard sections of the Cuillin and Arran ridges etc) and who wouldn't dream of taking a rope. Admittedly I was once on the Aonach Eagach on a wet day and feeling nervous about the downclimb off Am Bodach when a friend produced a rope from somewhere about his person for which I was very grateful.

they have a horrible experience and stick to walking afterwards, or they have a serious accident that stops their career, or they exercise personal care and judgement and progress up the self reliance and experience scale to become seasoned mountain types with red sock and bobbil hats

I started doing all this stuff alone back in the 1980s like lots of people then, including buying winter gear and going out experimenting with pushing my envelope

never looked back after buying a Silva compass, optimus 96 and Blacks good companion sleeping bag

I would always wear a helmet on Jack's Rake now because of stonefall, natural or recreationally  occurring.  But not on Crib Goch in spring to autumn period

helmet is always first thing on when arriving at crag

ropes, ropework and protection were definitely mentioned in a scrambling context when I started buying guidebooks in the late 80s

I think that's such good advice. I remember being at  Whitestone Cliffe at the 'loose' end. A small piece of rock 'only' about the size of a golf ball hit a branch next to where I was standing. The branch was about 6 " thick. It snapped as if it were a bread stick! 

I was thinking more towards taking precautions on unfamiliar scrambles, but yes sticking a lid on when below any crag is wise. 

Might I suggest "slightly before" rather than "when".

Many years ago, in a moment of numptiness, I took my helmet off when getting back to our sacks at the bottom of a big mountain route and promptly got hit on the head by a small stone - "twas only a scratch" but lots of blood and 3 stitches.

Next day I put my helmet on about a quarter of a mile before getting to the bottom of Cloggy.

What’s changed? I haven’t been on Jack’s Rake in a good 5 years but stone fall certainly wasn’t something it’s known for.

Norrie Muir, late of this parish, did the same in the 1970s, from iirc the Brittle Ledges.

yes, in some cases that seems a very good idea!

or falling sheep?

on the day we took 2 young children up in company with two other friends there was a burst sheep that had fallen from above.  

I have frequently moved loose stones out of harm's way to prevent anyone kicking them down on people below

I'd say it was the other way round. Climbing got pretty elitist by the 70s and too many climbers were sniffy about Mods and Easy climbs where people once used ropes. We started scrambling nearly 40 years ago (in the mid 80s) with the Cicerone guides to the Lakes and Snowdonia and they were published around 1980 and helped reverse that foolish attitude. Basic gear and ropework were very much part of those books: recommend for grade two and above.

True, but also I think Steve Ashton was fairly explicit in Scrambles in Snowdonia that he soloed all the routes when writing the guide. I have the first edition somewhere, but not to hand. I'd be interested to revisit and see what it said about ropes. Certainly the newest edition goes further than past versions on describing ropes and gear.

People often choose to solo climbs. Grade 3 scrambles are certainly Easy or Mod rock climbs, as well as scrambles. We lost our early Cicerone editions but I'm pretty sure they all said a rope should be carried on grade 2 upwards, in case it is needed (and the second page of text had "WARNING SCRAMBLING CAN BE DANGEROUS").

Apart from anything else scrambling parties can have a mix of greatly differing abilities so you need to know some basic ropework for that reason alone unless the  "every scrambler for themself" ethos where you can't show weakness, just a stiff upper lip, prevails among the group "leaders"

I don't think much has changed but the transition from scrambling to climbing is a personal one. 

I'd personally say that there are scrambles that are also rock climbs - a mountaineering day where you wouldn't pitch much, you'd solo lots of stuff but you'd definitely want a rope occasionally. the decision of which and when is personal. 

 

I think a lot depends on which direction you come at the middleground of scrambling from. You're clearly a climber (ditto lots of people on here), so scrambling is sort of heading in the easier direction, whereas I'm pretty much a pure walker, so scrambling, even easy stuff, is a step up. For all that I've done plenty of winter hills with axe and crampons, in summer I don't take any technical kit (I own a helmet but not a rope) and the times when been out on a deliberate rope-use outing (In Pinn, Sgurr Mhic Choinnich on a wet day, the Howitzer on Helm Crag on an extremely wet day) have been very few and far between. There are probably a lot of hill folk like me, and for us scrambling is always likely to be seen as an extension of walking: wait for a good-weather day and don't take a rope.

Grading section of the ‘85 revision - Grade 2, a rope “may be found useful” and Grade 3 a rope is “advisable” on occasional exposed passages.  However the “Scrambler’s Code”, printed in red, says "a safety rope MUST be carried in the party"! 

Oh yes, Ashton certainly highlighted the dangers. What was it he wrote? Something like "the proficient all-round scrambler is a unique beast, and probably lucky to be alive."

But I fall into the same camp as Dave. I'm not a climber (although I've dabbled with pointy things in winter) and have generally approached scrambling as something to be done without a rope. Though always low/mid grade stuff for me really. Like Dave, I'm also perfectly willing to ruin the day for my companions and retreat when I don't like the look/feel of a route.

Only from the second edition but those words have always stayed with me... 
 

I find the words just after those you've highlighted even more resonant: "alone, unroped and in trouble".  I guess most scramblers have experienced that from time to time.  Of course, in those situations without a rope you are always alone, even if your companions are close by.

It strikes me that we probably wouldn't be debating going roped-up on very similar ground in the Alps.

In my experience I think that is exactly so.

We started climbing after graduating from mountain walking into being very keen scramblers. Part of the reason we took up climbing was to improve our rope-work. We always took a confidence rope with us for the harder scrambles, as advised in the scrambling guidebooks, and although it mainly stayed in a rucksack we were glad of the extra security on more than a few occasions.

Is that Ashton or Evans? To be fair most of our early scrambling was in Lakeland gills, which we found charming, and always had some wet terrain (socks over boots needed at times).

This, and it holds both for experienced climbers who could easily deal with the technical difficulties, and for casual walkers getting in too deep.

Steep grass scares me shitless unless it is frozen and I have my axe and crampons!

CB

Evans.  (I've never tried his strong advice to take boots off and proceed in stockinged feet on slippery sloping gill rock). 

Very good for sledging down at high speed on a piece of cardboard when you are about eight or nine though!  Our downfall was the barbed wire fence at the bottom

I wonder how steep grass has to be before it qualifies as scrambling simply because of hands being in use and also exposure due to angle? If the grass has been nibbled short by sheep that merely adds to the experience. I've been on several such slopes - the section of the Alva Games hill race route above the band of crags is one, and I was particularly struck by the SW spur of Beinn a' Chaisteil above Auch - a tempting cut-the-corner route almost as soon as you pass under the railway viaduct. This has some remarkably steep grass for a long way, and probably isn't a thing to do in descent or on a wet day. There's also a shorter but very steep grass slope on the north side of Meall Ghaordaidh (a much better hill if you do it from the Lyon side rather than by the standard Lochay approach), and there's a bit on the north side of West Lomond that deserves to be treated with caution and has seen several non-winter accidents in recent years.

I've not been to either island, but I've heard of people using crampons on steep grass on both Muldoanich south of Barra and Boreray in St Kilda.

Allgäu Alps are steep grass hell.

Just looking at this makes me nervous, and this is the easy descent:

https://forum.rocksports.de/attachment.php?thumbnail=3117

Actually I find long, wet grass flattened by the winter snow even worse than sheep lawns.

CB

Gosh, that doesn't look like fun. How much of that is there? What struck me about the Beinn a' Chaisteil slope (much shorter grass than the route in your picture) was how regular it was and for how long - there was about 400m of it, at a very steady angle and with a remarkable lack of rocks or little "alcoves" to aim for if wanting a breather.

Another scramble-of-sorts type of slope is in woodland with steep scree mixed with beech mast - there's one of those near here and you need to be in the right mood (and the right footwear) to start up it.

Quite a bit of those vertical meadows, e.g. Höfats

https://img1.oastatic.com/img2/29563287/max/hoefats-suedwestgrat-iv-und-die...

or Schneck

https://ulligunde.com/wp-content/uploads/5D__0174ulligunde.com_.jpg

when i soloed it i must have gone off route higher up as there was a very memorable crux move grabbing turf over a big drop

Orienteering shoes on Boreray - fun for the first bit (c. diff) but very reassuring on the grass slopes above. About as exposed a day as I have ever had although there are easier ways up apparently.

Best of all for a gripping non grip experience - fresh wet snow on steep grass, like today.

Indeed - it was exactly those conditions that converted me to fell-running shoes for non-major winter walking outings. Maybe 15 years ago I was coming down the lower half of the Law in the Ochils (steep, as you'll know) in boots with a pal who was also in boots and who was and remains the best descender of a hillside I've ever met. There was a thin skim of soft spring snow on the grassy path, much like today as you say, and even my pal was having trouble staying upright - we dived off into the old bracken for safety. I then remembered I had an old pair of (I think) Reebok cross-country running shoes in a cupboard, so I tried them next time out and it was a revelation. Half a dozen pairs of Walshes and goodness knows how many pairs of Mudclaws later, I've never looked back (and by and large haven't fallen over very much).

Wow. Do people actually go up/down the grassy bits?

Absolutely! Not me, though...

The Höfats traverse and the Rädlergrat on Himmelhorn are established classic scrambling/climbing routes.

CB

I basically agree with this, and I definitely remind myself of it when I'm scrambling, but I was a bit surprised to look at the Langdale MRT callout log that was linked above and see that climbers on Pavey Ark are responsible for about as many callouts as scramblers on Jack's Rake. This despite the fact that JR is presumably a lot more popular than the trad climbs on Pavey, and also a more obvious goal for total numpties.

As I said above, it looks too steep and scary for many numpties, especially compared to CG. Striding Edge is another good comparison... not even a graded scramble but at times it can be utter chaos (especially with snow on the summit slopes). I'm very aware climbers do need rescuing sometimes, I spent 7 hours helping after a very serious climbing accident following a belay failure under Jacks Rake.

Thus showing that climbers are capable of being total numpties just like anyone else.

Hardly a common cause of fatalities on Jack’s Rake.  Besides unless you have a decent belay all along the scramble, the weight of a sheep falling on your head is likely to knock you off regardless of a helmet etc.

Has Jack's Rake changed drastically in the last thirty or so years? I went up it back in the eighties and don't really recall it being anh big deal beyond what would be expected for a grade 1 scramble. I don't seem to recall any "oh crikey" bits or any serious exposure.

Honestly, I suspect that it demonstrates that when push comes to shove, the survivability of total numpties is higher than you might expect. Still not high enough that you'd actually want to be the numpty yourself, but higher than the 50/50 shot that you'd give a lot of people based on the stuff that you see them doing...

I have been climbing for nearly 50 years and have always found it very exposed with a couple of places where you would not want to make a mistake. Just shows how people's perceptions can differ.

it was a bit quieter then!

if you do it with a heavy load on your back the danger spots become much more apparent.  Plus, bear in mind what I said about mixed damp and dry rock and inexperience

I remember reading a very ancient book (in the FRCC hut at Brackenclose, I think) where the author recommended carrying an ice axe at all times, in order to tackle steep grass.  There was an illustration of a chap in tweeds using a long-handled axe to get up a steep grassy bank.

The author did concede that you could expect to get some strange looks in Keswick in the height of summer.

It might have been the same book which advised ladies to wear a short skirt for climbing - about 9 inches above the ground.

Twice in the past couple of years I've encountered people with an ice axe on the Ochils in high summer, with not a speck of snow to be seen. One of them - a man met on a warm August day - had the axe in hand and I crossed paths with him three times, so eventually curiosity/nosiness got the better of me and I asked. My assumption/guess was that he had come up some steep scree gully (there had been a recent washout during a storm and when I first met him it was near the resulting debris) and he felt an axe might be of use in that. But that wasn't the reason: he said he normally walked on the Ochils once a year, in November when there was quite often snow, and he felt the axe "lived up here", hence his carrying it in August too. I didn't really understand his logic, but each to their own. He was going round all nine 2000ft tops - always a good effort - and was also wearing what I think were plus fours, so he was having a proper day out if in rather unusual fashion.

I thoroughly approve of this gent's behaviour, on the condition that the axe was a wooden shaft and iron head/ferule and correct length (a short cane, holding head between fingers with a relaxed arm, the ferule should just be bothering your ankles). And equally I'm expecting the plus fours to be Harris Tweed not any inferior variety

A few years ago I went up a couple of the spurs on the south side of the Aonach Eagach, one joining just west of the Red Chimney, the other the spur going up to meet the main east pinnacle. Both were steep grass, heather and some rocky bits. The latter wasn't too bad, the former was really unnerving! Pulling onto a rock buttress with a couple thousand feet of steep heather below, ending in crags. The descent from that was also fascinating; the massive boulder gully coming off Meall Dearg; random bits of human stuff in there including a party balloon. Within a year there was a massive rockfall from the sidewall of the gully that filled the thing up, now blending back into nature.

Yes it has, which is why in the past 10 years or so there have been two or three people who sadly fell 200+ feet down from near the top of Cruel Sister area.

DC

The Outdooractive route description of the Raedlergrat (mentioned by cb294 above) mention a grass axe and crampons.....

https://www.outdooractive.com/en/route/alpine-climbing/allgaeu/raedlergrat-...

But is that because the route has changed it's nature, or because the folk on the route are both greater in numbers and many of them are less experienced in the hills?

Sadly the plus fours were not tweed - I've dug out my contemporaneous notes (that makes me sound like a police officer: "The walker was proceeding in a westerly direction") and they specifically mention the non-tweed aspect. However the man (who was probably only in his thirties) was wearing full-length woollen socks, very new/clean-looking, and also a pair of winter or at least heavy boots (I was strolling along in Mudclaws), so it was overall a very retro look. Pretty sure the axe was a modern metal-shaft one. My notes also mention that when we met for the third time - on Ben Ever, the eighth of his nine intended summits - he said he'd already been out for eight hours and was "losing the will to live" - and he would have had at least a couple more hours ahead of him even assuming he was simply descending west from the last summit, Blairdenon, to the Sheriffmuir road to finish an east-west traverse from Glen Devon. Interesting/curious encounter, anyway.

I'm finding that age brings its problems, especially in the toilet area. Plus fours might be the very thing I'm looking for.

I agree with Wainwright's description:  'Although the Rake climbs high across the face of a fearful precipice, there is curiously little sense of exposure'. 

There are clearly many more people, and as we know many of them are incompetent. However, some parts of the rake have had soil and earth wash away plus a few boulders, normal erosion after heavy rain etc, so there are a couple of places where there are dangerous sliding drops which were not there 40 years ago.

DC

How has it changed?  apart from being far far busier?  It's still pretty much the same experience as I found when I first tried it in the 80s, though that day, being on my own and with it being a damp autumn morning with cloud swirling around it felt very exciting indeed.

I think Wainwight was like one of those climbers who only have 2 grades - 'I've done it' = easy, 'I haven't done it' = desperate.

He says something similar about Sharp Edge, which is also not trivial and potentially dangerous. Many years ago his description lured an inexperienced friend of mine on to it; she survived (obv) but had such a fright that she wrote a polite note suggesting he might wish to revise his description.

Somewhat at odds with his cuddly, avuncular image he replied with a rude letter saying he stood by every word and she was obviously too incompetent to be on the fells at all. She still has it.

That's not the image I have of him. I think he was a stubborn, cantankerous, curmudgeonly old git even when he was a younger man. Misogynist too in all probability, and certainly preferred animals to people (unless the person was called Betty and had a car).

What always amused me about him was his whinging that there where to many people in the Lakes.  Well, if some miserable git hadn't produced a series of guidebooks.....

Although the ‘ 85 guide mentioned above also says Jacks Rake has “little exposure” and adds “There have been warnings that the condition of the rake is deteriorating but with care the danger is minimal”.

I don't really get that. I've probably done it a half dozen times and there are places where a slip, easy enough to make if you started to panic,  would be fatal ... that makes it pretty exposed in my book.

We did it a few years ago when a couple of idiot fathers were haranguing their obviously terrified children up it. We were terrified too, on their behalf! but they let us overtake and we got the hell out of there.

When we reached the top a rescue helicopter suddenly appeared, and we both had the same thought - 'Oh f*ck, one of those kids has fallen off, we should have done something.' In fact, they hadn't, but the fact that we both had the same thought simultaneously was telling. 

I can believe it.  One particular misanthropic passage is in his Southern guide where he complains about the 'unnatural and unwelcome' remains of the Canadian Halifax bomber that crashed into Great Carrs in 1944. No mention of the tragic deaths of the crew fighting to liberate his country. 

That letter should make it onto Antiques Roadshow. They would love it and it might be worth a couple of bob!

I think you are right. Hunter Davies's biography of Wainwright doesn't spare him and Hunter Davies was a fan.

On the plus side he produced marvellous guidebooks with wonderful drawings. - He wasn't so good at drawing water or the sky. He could be highly entertaining at times, even witty and amusing.- I still get a lot of pleasure out of studying his books. He donated a lot of money from his books to animal charities. And most of us have our good and bad side. I've certainly done a lot of things which I regret, am even ashamed of.

What I find difficult to understand is the hero worshipping of Wainwright by some people. I belong to a website devoted totally to the Wainwright fells. I am not a photographer and it has some beautiful photos. A lot of the people on this Wainwright website idolise him. - Have coffee tables with drawings of him on them, Wainwright tattoos, and all manner of memorabilia, most of it in bad taste in my opinion. I don't think Munro, Corbett, Donald, or even Poucher are put on such a pedestal. However, I don't understand anybody being hero worshipped. - Appreciated perhaps but not idolised.

I've just done it the once a very long time ago when I was very fit, but I do remember it being quite a big number for grade 1. Mind you, I got out of the worn runnel between about ¼ and ½ height by following the exposed left edge, which was probably Grade II, and very good. No comparison with Striding Edge which is about 'Grade a half' on the crest, which can be avoided at almost any point by a tame path just below the crest (Grade 0, i.e. a walk). Other comparisons: Crib Goch, very exposed Grade I, but on perfect rock. Sharp Edge, at least Grade II, on unpleasant, shiny rock.

Yep, I'd agree with all of that.

Jacks rake is the one easy scramble ive not done,so will have to make the effort and go do it and will wear a helmet,i didnt know it was known for stonefall.

It might have been a 50 year old tattoo of Brigitte Bardot

Haha! you're showing your age.

not Francoise Hardy?

Wouldn't those be Nuttalls?

(Are we allowed to say stuff like this anymore?)

The ethics question. The party the OP described were not at that point in any difficulties but were hinting that they wanted ad hoc guiding. You have no responsibility in that situation, they still had a number of retreat decision points in front of them.

Different entirely from happening on a group already strung out and cragfast, or arriving at the scene of an accident.

Sigh

Is that a good or bad thing . I always think carefully about my day out before going with my partner. Knowing what they're up for and how much patience and coaching your willing to do is a huge part of going out doors.

I'm going to ruin your life by asking if that's a cross between Mark Francois and Oliver Hardy...

In the words of Debbie Harry "Picture This ..."

no thanks ....

JRM? Did he have his Nanny with him? If not it wasn't him.

Yes, real-life personality aside, I still like the guidebooks and still guffaw at some of the jokes - see for example the drawing on p.4 of Kirk Fell (Western Fells). I take a photo of the summit page for whatever hill I'm doing with me on my phone so I can check the view and visit any off-summit points he recommends.