UKC

Advice / comments welcome. Apologies for length of post but complicated.

This morning I received a letter from a high street bank demanding £1828.43 within 14 days. I don't bank with this bank. Due to tone of letter, grammar, spelling, etc my wife thought it was a hoax but a phone-call to the bank head office proved it was genuine.

Letter subject was "The late Miss Campbell" and said that their records showed "that following their death" I "completed the closure form for their account[s]." By completing and signing this form I "confirmed" I was "entitled to the sums held by the late Miss Camobell." [That is how it was spelt.] As a result of my apparent signature they "therefore closed the account[s] on 1st March 2021"[not 1st March 2022] "and paid [me] the closing balance of £1828.43." 

The letter went on to say that they understood that this was a difficult time.- Ukraine, fuel prices, Brexit? - but said it had come to light that I wasn't the executor of the estate and therefore wasn't entitled to give them instructions or receive the funds held in the account. They had now "paid the funds due to the estate" and were "entitled to rely on the form [I] signed to recover the amount" so they could cover their loss in making a payment to the estate." The tone of the letter was that I had committed some kind of fraud.

Needless to say, I have no idea who Miss Campbell was. I have a theory to explain the form signature [later] but I don't understand why they waited over a year from the account closure to get in touch with me.

A phone call to the bank head office only revealed that Miss Campbell's initials were "JS" and that the money had been paid to me on 14th June 2016, not on 1st March 2021 as the letter said.

To recap. £1828.43 was [apparently] paid to me from JS Campbell's account on 14th June 2016 as I had [apparently] signed a form saying I was entitled to this money. However, account not closed until 1st March 2021 and "my error" not conveyed to me until 31st March 2022.

I took this letter to the local branch of this bank and a very helpful employee agreed with me that the letter did not convey enough information and advised me to contact the complaints department of the bank. I have done so.

A possible explanation. My mother died in September 2011. She banked with the local branch of this bank. her name was J S G*******. She has formerly been JS Campbell but her first husband, my dad, died, and she changed her surname. After her death my late brother and I, who were executors for her will, went into the local bank branch, informed the bank of her death and closed her account. There was c£100 in the account which was given to my brother and I in cash.

A few years ago I received a letter from this bank saying that they had made a mistake and that there was a considerable sum in my mother's account. From memory this was a few hundred £s, nothing like C£2k. I don't have a copy of the letter but I am sure It referred to my mother as JS G******, not JS Campbell, the woman whose estate I am "accused" of defrauding. From memory, the letter apologised for the mistake and asked me to sign a form closing the account. A few days later I received money by cheque or transfer. I have checked my bank account archive and no sum of £1828.43 was paid in June 2016.

Can I be forced to pay this money without the bank providing evidence that they paid it to me? If they can prove it was paid I will [grudgingly] pay it as it didn't belong to me. If they insist on me paying this without providing proof [eg. Copy of the form I signed] what can I do? Am I at least due an apology for all the mistakes the bank has made?

Can you speak to whoever manages the estate to see if they have received the sum recently 

This sounds like a pretty simple one. 

You need your account statements going back to May 2016 and see if this payment was ever received. This piece of information is key here. 

If you have received the funds in error, my understanding is that you are bound to repay it. 

Then show that you never received it and leave it at that. 

If they keep badgering, make a formal complaint, emphasising the 'distress' caused and let the compliance team understand you've never received this payment. 

Thanks for the suggestion. Problem is that the bank refuse to give me details of the estate or who the executor is. I would like proof that the person who claims to be the executor is actually the executor. I would like to know how I could have closed the account in June 2016 and then it was closed again in March 2021. I am pretty sure that I was paid money I was not due in June 2016 but would like proof of how much I was paid before I pay it back. I am a bit fed up with having to trawl my bank records to see if I was paid the amount they say I owe. What really annoys me is that the bank contacted me [perhaps in June 2016] and sent me a form to sign to get money which they said was in my mother's account. As far as I can remember they even apologised for their mistake. I didn't ask for this money. Now they are implying [from where I am standing] that I committed some kind of fraud.

do you bank with them?  have they got any way to 'recover' the money from you without you paying it to them?

if not then  surely it's their problem to prove it and i guess they will need to take you to court to recover it.

Notwithstanding the other, very sensible, advice given here if you've checked and can't see evidence that you received the money then the next move is to ask the bank to provide evidence that this money was paid and to whom, when.  It may be that there's a screw up their end with names and account numbers or similar; you need to see what they have.

While that's going on, take advice; citizen's advice or similar.  As things stand, a bank is asking you to give them money without providing evidence that you owe it to them.  I suspect that handling a case like this may make someone's day rather more fun than it would otherwise have been.

Good luck!

T.

I'm sorry to say it sounds like a scam to me

I personally would not talk on the phone, or email, with the bank. I would only visit the head office in person

Sorry if this sounds negative

Good luck with it

If you received the money in error  AND you weren't aware you'd received the money and you subsequently spent it then they cannot get it back.  (this happened to me years ago)

I would not pay any money back until they can prove to your satisfaction that it had already been paid.  

Ask for an apology!!  Such 'entitlements', don't come into unless you ask.

I notice this happened around 2016.  There;s a 'statute of limitations', which means that for some matters there's a time limit to which certain claims can not be made after so many years.  You might wish to look this up a little more and see whether this, a) applies, and b) if it does, how long is before it expires and they can no longer make such a claim.

Good luck.

Thanks. I don't bank with them but want to try to avoid a court case if possible.

Stage 1. Make sure it's not a scam (tbf it does sound like there's a small chance it's legit). Check the bank phone number on the letter with a phone number from the internet and make abs sure you're not phoning a scammer on the "head office" number.

Stage 2. Electronics are not your friend - do everything in writing and don't pay them anything. Get them to prove they made the transfer to your account. Tell them to write to you again including the full details of the transaction, including the sort code, account number, date, and confirmation of the amount transferred. If/when that arrives, send them a statement from your account for that month with the transfer not present etc, and ask them to prove that they made a successful transfer.

In this case, I wouldn't worry too much about apologies. Banks and scammers don't specialise in that kind of thing. If you do end up on a call, keep asking for the issue to be escalated until you reach someone with the necessary authority and experience.

Good luck.

Citizens Advice seems a good port of call. Thanks.

Person I spoke to at local branch was at very least not impressed with letter. However, checked head office phone number via internet and I am pretty certain I spoke to a bank employee. - who wasn't very sympathetic or helpful. She did confirm that letter was legit. Thanks 

Thanks. I've written asking for proof and for an apology. However, I'm a pessimist and fear the worst. I'm quite prepared to pay back money if I was paid by mistake. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford this. I wonder how a letter like this would affect somebody under the cosh with fuel bills etc 

A lot of good advice there. Thanks.

Suppose you can prove you were the executor? I think that's where id be starting to look. Who is the 'executor' they are dealing with and why are they trumping your executor rights

If it was me I would reply and I would keep it as brief as possible. 

Thank you for your letter alleging I received £1828.43 in error on 1st March 2021.  I have checked my bank statements and enclose a copy of the relevant page.  No such payment was made.

On a subsequent phone call to your company an employee told me the payment was in fact made in June 2016.  I enclose a copy of my bank statement from June 2016. No such payment was made. 

If you wish to persist with your claim that a payment was made to me in error please provide correct details of the amount, date and description of the alleged payment.  

Yours faithfully XXX.

  I have questions rather than help I am afraid.  Are you sure the account this relates to is the account from which you previously received money?  Since the surname appears to be different is it possible you had no knowledge of the account in question after your mothers death, accounts that are not used for a long time become dormant, is it possible this is an account in her previous name that she forgot about or simply hadn't used for ages, which could be why the bank didn't pick up on it at the time?

  Dormant accounts can be traced, is it possible someone else (possibly a fraudster) discovered the existence of the account, in which case to claim the money they would have either had to impersonate a genuine executor or trick the bank into thinking they were the executor, although I'm not sure how that would lead to you being chased for it now?  Since you say you were a joint executor but the (only?) other executor has passed do you still have proof you were an executor, if there were other executors has one of them been paid the money?

Can you get the account numbers and dates out of the bank, and do you still have a record of your mother's account numbers to check?

One other improbable thought, can you get the bank to verify the birth date of the account owner, to check it really is your mother's account and not someone completely unknown to you?

Example of someone caught perpetrating a fraud targetting a dormant account, although this was an inside job as it were.  The times article is behind a paywall but the gist is there in the first few lines:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scandal-of-the-missing-cash-from-dormant...

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/14113106.richmond-bank-manager-lesle...

What was the amount of money you 'received by cheque or transfer'?

That can also apply if you knew you had received it and then spent it genuinely thinking it was yours, they can’t necessarily get it back.

Look up unjust enrichment change of position - https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk/legal/guidance/defences-to-restitutionary-clai.... That would be good if it was free, I think you can see the most relevant bit though.

Problem is that I can't remember when I was contacted by the bank saying I was due money or how much I was due. It was a useful amount but not life changing. I don't think it was anywhere near the amount the bank is quoting.

A lot of points to think about there. Thanks 

Thanks, Tom. I'll send off a letter tomorrow using your wording. I tend to ramble instead of cutting to the chase. Thanks to everybody who has replied. All replies have been reassuring. The expertise and knowledge on UKH about non hill walking etc matters is incredible. I'll pass on outcome, which is likely to be some time away 

Tell them to f@ck off... And, if they persist, then tell them to f@ck off some more.

Alternatively, send them a postal order for 1p and advise them to "quantitatively ease" it to the alleged outstanding balance.

Could it be that the executor for your late brother is chasing up his affairs (eg his estate should include something from your late mother's estate) and there is some confusion due to that?

In the case of Executors and Estates it is a bit more complicated.

If the poster has recieved the money then they should return it.

I had advice once on this from the solictors on my parents Estate.

In some cases Estates take a long time to resolve and close down( including tax issues) , these situations happen more frequently than people realise.

Clearly the bank needs to provide the paper work to back it up that the poster had the money.And that is for the bank and the poster to resolve.

It's pretty easy to ensure one is talking to a genuine bank without having to give up days of one's life to travel to, probably more than once, a head office likely hundreds of miles away! Not something I'd be keen on... 

Surely you can't *prove* you never received or banked a cheque (let alone cash), only that the accounts you declare control of don't show the transaction. The bank paying the cheque will however have a record of where it went.

jk

I was the executor for my late brother's estate. Thanks for the suggestion.

Hello!

Yes, you are correct.

The key is the bank will know what account those monies were paid to. If this account does not line up with an account belonging / controlled by to the OP then that resolves it. 

I disagree with the highlights in bold. Don't send them anything.

I'd go with freeflyer's advice: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/bank_demand_for_c2k-745898?v=1#...

I took advice from a solicitor when I noticed money arrived in my bank account. When I queried it with the bank, they said it had come from another bank and it must be an 'anonymous donation' if I didn't know of it. They said they'd charge me to investigate, so I left it. It happened again 6 months later and that time I asked them to investigate and if an error was found, not to charge me.

They did find an error, the bank sending the money had put my account number instead of someone else's. It turns out that they had been doing it every 6 months for years. Then they asked for all the money back a few times. I was a student / just graduated and paid back the recent payments but the earlier ones had gone into my general pool of money unnoticed and been spent (presumably on wine). I explained this, and they stopped requesting it... I still owe it I guess.

Id keep it a bit more professional and lose those kisses off the end!