UKC

An idea occurred to me the other day.... Instead of burning gas/oil (and all that that entails) to heat large, poorly insulated spaces to 20+ degrees so that the humans contained within feel comfortable, why not heat and insulate just the human?  Initial thoughts were ~5/6Ah Li-Ion battery clipped to a utility belt powering comfortable stretchy base layer type clothing with integrated fine resistance wire.  Smart(ish?) interface so you can zone the heating to taste.  My guess ~20w continuous load would keep an inactive human feeling toasty in a 5-10 degree indoor environment.  Normal clothes on top.  Remove and have mains leccy blanket for bed.  Get used to cold showers, get an electric hob and you're no longer dependent on gas.  Sorted?  (probably also need to get used to wearing hats and night caps all the time?)
Any other really great ideas out there?

In reply to Ram MkiV:

Murder a flock of geese and steal their insulation.

In reply to Ram MkiV:

I don't think you are being serious. But better insulation is what we need.  A thin, near perfect insulator fabric would make heating unnecessary for both houses and clothing.

In reply to Ram MkiV:

Damp and mould.  You'll need to ensure good, old fashioned victorian levels of ventilation throughout.

No need for double glazing then, and much easier to stop it getting too hot in summer.

In reply to David Riley:

You can insulate houses perfectly well - look up Passivhaus. Hard to retrofit, expensive for single occupancy dwellings and of course encouraged in absolutely no way in the UK.

In reply to Ram MkiV:

I like it, I have heated gear for my motorbike, well I have a heated vest but it keeps me warm enough.

The best things for homes is to encourage people to not be so bloody soft. 

In reply to Ram MkiV:

Almost like there should be a whole industry trying to make better and better insulation for jackets or something?

In reply to ianstevens:

You say you can insulate houses perfectly well, then go on to accept you can't.

I can't insulate my house since the stairs are narrow and against a solid brick outside wall.

I need passivhaus grade insulation 5mm thick, cheap.  Development needed.

In reply to Ram MkiV:

My suggestion is move somewhere warm, Hawaii, Sicily, southern Italy, southern Spain, Portugal, Greece mainland, Greek islands. (Or Dubai, Morocco, Algeria, Hong Kong if you feel bolder)

In reply to Ram MkiV:

You can buy an 80W 4ft square electric fleece blanket for about £35. It costs about 2p/hr I think, and keeps me toasty and saves a fortune whilst working from home. I'm sure a bit of sewing machine bodging could make a plug-in onesie.

In reply to Mowglee:

Nice, I think we can safely call that a proof of concept.

In reply to wintertree:

win win win.  Think you've identified a huge opportunity for job creation here.  Teams of good honest men and women trained to drill holes through brick walls and retro fit rattly single glazing.

In reply to ianstevens:

Should be mandatory for all new builds, though.  It's hard to retrofit, it's easy to incorporate from day one.

In reply to Ram MkiV:

https://makitauk.com/product/dcv202z

Not tried it myself, although I've got loads of the range and therefore loads of the batteries. Although I rely on insulation and a whacking great dressing-gown in my gaff. 

In reply to David Riley:

It's called an aerogel. 

http://www.aerogel.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/theflowerlow-lbl.jpg

www.aerogel.org

In reply to Ram MkiV:

Thermal baselayer and a hat? 

In reply to Ram MkiV: a few months ago someone advertised a rab  one piece down suit for a reasonable price , I jokingly replied that I would buy it for around the house and turn the heating off  . Even though I don’t foresee any more trips to the Himalaya for a few years i then decided to buy it and wear it for winter car camping . He went to ground and  I decided he had decided to keep it for the upcoming dark winter. Either that or he was a covid nutter  .

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Thanks,  Yes, moving in the right direction.

But claims only two and a half times as good as expanded polystyrene, and $300 a square metre.

In reply to David Riley:

I some situations retrofitted insulation has to be external.

https://www.edfenergy.com/heating/insulation/external-wall

In reply to elsewhere:

Previously, Planning would probably have rejected it.  But now ?

In reply to profitofdoom:

No need. Just lets carry on increasing greenhouse gas emission. Apparently turning down the thermostat even 2 degrees temperature significantly reduces our heating bills, so a couple of degrees of global temperature rise should do the same. 

In reply to David Riley:

Anecdotal, but when I lived in Bristol a few years back my mate's place had it done with no bother.

Two houses across the road from me in Sheffield have been externally insulated in the last couple of years. 

With render and paint over the top it looks pretty smart.

In reply to David Riley:

Or a thick curtain across the top and bottom of your stairs to kill the convection.

Jk

In reply to TechnoJim:

Depends where you live.  My house is 1845 in a tiny village of similar properties.

Not that I'd want to have to heat all the brickwork anyway.   It would be very inefficient.

In reply to David Riley:

I think at some point we may have to accept change and modernisation as an alternative to massive heating bills and global warming.

Not once warmed up.

And insulating a wall is a perfect "lateral solution"

In reply to elsewhere:

Except the cost of warming it up is very large, and it's not insulated from the ground or adjoining brickwork.

In reply to David Riley:

Re. external insulation.

You already do heat the brickwork, it just loses more now (during the cold dark months) than it would were it insulated.

Regarding your stairs, if the cold bothers you then work out how thick the plaster is. By stripping it off you can probably get the better part of 20mm of foam on there for <10mm total thickness gain if you're careful. Much better than before assuming that wall is the main heatsink.

Then again I guess the rest of your house is built the same and isn't cold because you heat it whereas you presumably don't heat the stairs therefore they'd still be cold once insulated.

Mine are the same, bastard cold but not a living space so who cares, I close the doors.

jk

In reply to Ram MkiV:

You may not be serious but I genuinely use an electric heated throw which apparently costs pennies to run. It works best on the sofa and slightly less well sitting at my desk when WFH.

My husband initially mocked this throw but then stole it repeatedly, so I bought him his own. Company is called Dreamland. The plug detaches and it's washable.

I'm happy not to have the heating on when using it (our house is old and lime rendered, detached from the rest of the terrace and not really possible to insulate because old houses need to 'breathe' or they get damp).

In reply to jkarran:

All good sense. But the thread is about new solutions. I posted because I see the problems with insulating existing housing stock would go away if insulation was good enough, thin enough, and cheap enough.  In my own case I have concluded more insulation is currently not worthwhile.

Although a laminate floor over my nice tiled kitchen floor would make a big difference.

In reply to David Riley:

Raising 70T of brick by 10degC on a one-off basis would require 150kWH. At today's gas price of 7.3p/kWH and with 90% boiler efficiency that would cost you £12, trivial compared to the cost of the work.

What you lose in cool-season solar gain by cladding is more interesting especially if your bricks are stained dark and you have a sizable south facade. Whether it's worth cladding the whole house or just the shaded faces would require a bit of calculation.

External cladding with asymetric heat-flow would be awesome. I can think of a few ways it might be done, some of them might even work

jk

In reply to Ram MkiV:

Start building all new homes to highest spec of insulation, renewables etc from tomorrow or as soon as possible.

In reply to jkarran:

But it's not a one-off basis.  You might as well argue that a 100 ton car would be just as good as it would not use any more fuel once up to speed.  I heat parts of the house as I need them, and want the insulation on the inside.

In reply to David Riley:

Yes it is (give or take holidays where you might wind it down a few degrees), once it's warm you keep it warm, doing so just costs less than it used to despite it being warmer on average.

Are you seriously, without recourse to the lost solar gain argument, saying that externally insulating your house would result in you using *more* energy to heat it?

jk

In reply to Hutson:

Half serious. Seems like you and mowglee are early adopters.  The throws sound ok but they have to heat through your clothes and must 'lose' loads to the room.  Interesting data point that they're still effective at 80w though.... I'd guess heating right next to the skin with the insulating base layer plus a layer or two of insulating clothes on top will be way more efficient/effective.  Going battery/wireless more convenient too.
As a proud owner of a ~£20 electric blanket for bed (house only has woodburner for heating) , 30 mins on at 100w before turning in costs less than 1 pence - a small price to pay for a guaranteed heavenly experience every single night.  

In reply to Ram MkiV:

Battery heated clothing works ok, you can already buy workwear, outdoorsy stuff and motorcycle gear that works as you describe.

Not sure it's a great alternative to a cosy home though (from someone who lives in a cold one).

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Of course not.  But initially external insulation gives no benefit at all. To get to steady state and maximum benefit would take days.  Internal insulation gives full benefit straight away.

In reply to Ram MkiV:

I have heated insoles in my shoes as I post.  Cost £6 on ebay and plug into 2A usb (10W) when needed.

Thought for the day.  You get what you pay for.  Pay more and you get a less honest trader.

In reply to jkarran:

They're all over garments though for outside wear.  Would be interested to see how undergarments intended primarily for indoor use felt/performed.  Maybe you'd still get cold extremities?  Maybe they'd feel uncomfortable after a while? Maybe not...

Neither am I but based on reliably heavenly experiences from heated car seats and my electric blanket I feel like it's worth finding out!  Looking at 1, 2 (more?!) orders of magnitude reduction in heating costs here.

In reply to Ram MkiV:

Heated underwear with rechargeable batts is a common item for motorcyclists. The WarmX is probably the most high-tech as it uses silver-coated thread woven in the material so you can't feel it's there.

They sell it for wellness, riding, hunting and motorcyling so cover most things!

In reply to jimtitt:

Ah yeah, perfect.  From their site -  "The warmX – silverSun was developed especially for the outdoor sector. Whether Nordic Walking, hiking, biking or rock-climbing – with the warmX – silverSun you will be perfectly equipped."
They just need to scale production, reduce price by an order of magnitude and add 'watching Netflix' to the list of potential applications.  Climate crisis half way solved.

In reply to David Riley:

I may be able to provide solid data on that fairly soon. I'm fitting per-room thermostats (as I'm controlling my heating from a central manifold with a zone per room) and I will get external insulation fitted in the very near future too. Considering everything is going into a Pi, I am going to have a full log of temperature changes before and after.

It would be interesting to compare the living room to the other rooms too, the living room's external wall is an extension, so it's standard insulated cavity, while the walls in the other rooms are no-fines concrete.

In reply to Ram MkiV:

I'm getting to enjoy my morning cold showers. Very invigorating and good acclimatisation for cold water swimming.

In reply to David Riley:

Or do both, way less thermal bridging. 

In reply to David Riley:

But after those few days to pump it up, for the years afterwards the benefit of insulated thermal mass and radiant heat is significant.

I'm coming across as a bit of an evangelist here for external insulation, largely because it's technically the best solution for solid walls and new-build. That said, I have been gradually fitting internal insulation because my cavities are leaky/damp and rendered external insulation with all the architectural weirdness retrofitting it creates would look shit on my red brick terrace.

jk

In reply to Ram MkiV:

Under garments are available. I used a heated vest for a long road trip in an open vehicle, in very inclement weather. It kept me alive and mostly, with a big coat comfortable despite being soaked in icy water and wind-blasted for a lot of the time.

Get yourself a 12V bike vest and try it.

jk

In reply to Ram MkiV:

I do this.  Down jackets and hats on at home.  And drink boiled water all day long to heat up - just me.  Also use this technique in the van, instead of all those fuel fired heaters and engines humming along in the north face carpark.  Yes, house mould is the main downside.  But can be minimized.

In reply to BruceM:

https://rab.equipment/uk/expedition-8000-suit

One of these and a large, furry, cuddly dog!!! Like this one!

In reply to Alkis:

What are you using for external wall insulation and what will you do with the eves, do they have quite a bit of overhang?

In reply to Tyler:

The standard for Wimpey No-Fines EWI tends to be EPS stuck on and rendered. These houses have a massive overhang at the eaves, for reference the soil stack goes through the soffit with plenty of clearance between the wall, the stack, and fascia.

I can measure it when I get home, I seem to remember it being 300mm

In reply to David Riley:

Depends on the aerogel material.  It's a whole class of materials with a range of properties.  But yes, it can be very expensive.

Some guy is making a beanie with aerogel insulation

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kistlerjacket/kistler-the-warmest-jack...

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Heat shield to base jump from space ?

In reply to Alkis:

Thank you and there’s really no need to go measuring anything on my behalf, I’m just idly wondering about the practicalities. My house is stone built and I did find an article that talked of some insulated render which also let condensation out so seems perfect for my needs (if planning agree to it) but now I can’t find the article and if I Google insulated render it leads to the type of thing you describe (insulated board and then render on top)

In reply to David Riley:

I said you can do it. Not that it is suitable for old  draughty UK houses. Perfectly suitable for new, for some reason still draughty, UK houses that are mass produced.