UKC

Escaping the System - Different Methods

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 Martin Hore 05 Apr 2022

Our club has been holding some skills refresher evenings at our local wall. Last night a few of us looked at escaping the system - ie releasing yourself in the situation where you are bringing up a second who, for whatever reason, has become a dead load on the rope. It's a skill I've never needed to use for real in 50 years of trad climbing, but always thought it worth keeping in the tool-kit just in case.

I've been taught, quite a few years ago, the method in Libby Peter's "Rock Climbing: Essential Skills..." where you first tie off the dead rope just behind the belay device with a releasable knot across the back-bar of the belay karabiner. This frees your hands to link the loaded rope directly to your anchors using a prussic on the loaded rope (and a second prussic on the rope to the anchors if they are out of reach). You then carefully slip the releasable knot and load the prussic. Finally, you back up the prussic by connecting the dead rope (now free) to the anchors. You can now get out of the system quite easily, making sure you remain attached to the anchors.

One of our members has attended a rescue skills course much more recently and introduced a newer and potentially simpler method. You tie a simple overhand knot in the dead rope just behind the belay device and allow this to slip into the belay plate, locking things up. You then fix the prussic as above, and back up with the dead rope. It's then just possible to disconnect yourself from the belay karabiner by unscrewing it and slipping your harness belay loop through the open gate. I found this rather difficult, but it can potentially be made easier if you can hoist the load a tiny bit (eg by straightening your legs) and take up the slack with the prussic. 

I'd not seen this second method written up or on video anywhere. I wonder if any of the instructors on here, or other experienced folk, now favour this method and can point me to where it's described. I may not have described it very well myself.

Many thanks

Martin

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 George Ormerod 05 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

In method 2, aren't you screwed if you can't reach / need a bit more rope to reach an anchor if you've panicked?  Whereas the releasable one, the only one I've been taught, is more versatile.

 tehmarks 05 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

The releasable version is more flexible, and - I'd argue - the best/'correct' way for tying off the belay device for any reason. Once you learn how to do it (loop through the krab, loop through the loop, couple of half hitches around the live rope) it takes ten seconds, and has the benefit of always keeping the dead rope locked off and in control as you do it and as you undo it. And the benefit that you can always release it regardless of what's happening on the other end of the rope (needed time to think/assess injuries/etc so tied them off, but the best course of action is obviously actually to lower them? No problem).

I'd argue though that the easiest way to escape the system is to not be a part of it in the first place. The 'direct isolation loop' method of building a belay, as described on David Coley/Andy Kirkpatrick's site, is good for this. Little extra faff for the great benefit of being able to escape the system simply by untying your tie-in knot.

http://www.multipitchclimbing.com/

I'm not an instructor though, so as always complementary salt is provided.

 Alex Riley 06 Apr 2022
In reply to tehmarks:

The first method work every time, the second might work some of the time. I've not seen the second one taught by any of my peers, the first would be the preference in my experience.

OP Martin Hore 06 Apr 2022
In reply to Alex Riley:

> The first method work every time, the second might work some of the time. I've not seen the second one taught by any of my peers, the first would be the preference in my experience.

The second method (or something very like it - I may not have understood it perfectly) was being taught as the preferred method on a rescue skills course recently. It would be good to hear from any instructors on here who use this method.

Martin

 James Thacker 06 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

The second option might well work, certainly sounds logical. The first option will give a greater margin though, it's generally better if things are releasable just in case you end up in a jam. Which is quite possible in the mucky reality of a situation where you actually have to do this stuff.

 Jamie Wakeham 06 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

This is a bit of a recipe for ending up with the overhand jammed solidly against the plate.  If you can move freely around on your anchors, and if you have the strength, you could hoist the climber up a little way to then engage the prusik, but those are two fairly important 'if's.  Far better to use the pair-of-half-hitches method in my opinion.  Takes only a moment longer and eliminates a possible problem.

(I'm being very pedantic here, I know, but it's prusik, not prussic.  We're talking about an apocryphal violinist/alpinist and not an acid...)

1
 Cobra_Head 06 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

Not quite sure I follow the second method, but don't you get a slight shock load on the anchors as the rope comes out of the belay device. I might have this totally wrong.

 Baron Weasel 06 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

On multipitch I I often tie an 'infinite improbability loop' i.e. an alpine butterfly as close as possible to my tie in loop. I then build my belay and belay from this loop. To escape the system all I need to do is untie.

 neuromancer 06 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

Perhaps stupid, but doesn't this effectively lock the system until you can unload the plate? 

Ie if you were to release then to find that your second needed to be lowered instead of brought up, you are now f*cked?

OP Martin Hore 06 Apr 2022
In reply to neuromancer:

> Perhaps stupid, but doesn't this effectively lock the system until you can unload the plate? 

> Ie if you were to release then to find that your second needed to be lowered instead of brought up, you are now f*cked?

I think not. You can back-up the prussik (extra marks for the "k" there I hope) with the dead rope directly to the anchor with a tied off Italian hitch, Then release the prussik (assuming it's an autobloc) so the Italian hitch is loaded instead, remove the prussik, and lower off the Italian Hitch. What will happen though, I think, is that your belay plate and karabiner will remain stuck on the loaded rope, so you'll need something else (eg another Italian Hitch) if you want to abseil to the casualty. There's also a good chance the belay device will snag in a crack as you lower. I think the rationale was that if you intended to lower the casualty you would do this first of all, without bothering to escape the system at all. 

The main issue is how to get your belay loop out of the belay karabiner while the system is loaded. I'm not personally convinced it would work reliably in a real-life situation. But I may have missed something in picking it up second hand. On the course my friend attended the impression the instructor gave was that this method had now superseded the releasable tying off over the back bar method we were taught in the past. I was hoping someone in the know would join the thread to corroborate this. So far, not so.

Martin

Post edited at 23:58
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 tehmarks 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

> I think not. You can...

You can, but I feel you're just solving extra problems for yourself that have been created as a result of doing something that seems to have no tangible benefits?

The situation will be stressful enough as is if you ever have to do this in anger, so dealing with the unexpected awkwardness of 'oh now I can't unclip this, the rope is under tension....oh I'll have to do this and this and....oh, yup, unclipped...' will add tenfold to your dramas in a way you probably can't appreciate while hashing it out logically on an online forum.

There's no reason not to tie it off in a releasable manner - it's a really simple and absolutely essential skill, and it doesn't take any longer to do than tying the overhand. There are no advantages at all that I can see to the second system. Maybe it's easier to teach? Is that overly cynical of me?

 Alex Riley 07 Apr 2022
In reply to tehmarks:

A more realistic time when you would use an overhand to go hands free is at a stance for a quick changeover. Lets say the second then becomes incapacitated and loads this rope.

To escape the system from here you use or create a master point to tie into (kleimheist with a sling around the rope), the set up a hoist system to creat some slack, take them tight with the overhand now clear. At this point bypass the belay plate, tie Italian hitch, get rid of belay plate, tie off Italian hitch.

Easier said than done, rescues are all about efficiency and whilst an overhand might be quicker to tie (debatable) it stuffs you up further along and adds steps.

 LucaC 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

I’ve never seen that method, and probably wouldn’t teach it. It’s better to keep everything releasable and not have to introduce other steps to recover your belay plate which is jammed, should you wish to use it immediately (eg. tie off the back end of the rope and abseil for first aid on a catastrophic bleed etc). 
 

As others have said, in an improvised situation it might work, but I would keep to the textbook method which works well every time and is easy to integrate into more complicated rescues. 

1
 Jamie Wakeham 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Alex Riley:

> A more realistic time when you would use an overhand to go hands free is at a stance for a quick changeover.

I confess I have put an overhand behind the plate for this specific purpose. I figure that the second is within reach at this point so if they have that sudden heart attack I can just drag them back up.

1
 Alex Riley 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

It's totally fine for that purpose, quick and simple (the rope isn't likely to be weighted in this circumstance).

 Jamie Wakeham 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Alex Riley:

Quite.  I wouldn't choose it if the belay were totally hanging in free space, but for a nice big ledge it's fine.

1
 Luke01 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

I think you're underestimating the process required to release a jammed overhand in your belay plate.

The way I see it, you'd need to back up with a prusik, and then do i little haul on that to get some slack in the live rope again in order to un-jam your overhand.

As others have said, rescues are about efficiency and each step you take, especially early on in the process, should leave you with options. 

 Philip 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

The second method sounds easier because you missed some steps when you described it vs the first.

Isn't the basic premise:

1. Lock off (eg tie the dead rope around the carabiner, as described in method 1)
2. Take tension on prussic, backed up with the dead rope attached to the anchors
3. Remove yourself from the belay device/rope from belay device
4. Assemble some direct belay off the anchors, take slack and tie off
5. Release the prussic

Doesn't the overhand just replaces step 1, and while quicker to "get out", it's potentially slower at step 3 when you need to get a jammed overhand knot out. Also isn't it only specific to using certain belay devices and not for example figure of 8 or a munter hitch?

Very interested as currently trying to brush up on all this.

 Alex Riley 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Philip:

You can't transfer the tension to the prussik if the overhand is jammed up to the plate.

 ExiledScot 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

If you ever need to escape then something has already gone wrong. The system you escape with needs to be the most versatile and potentially not compound problems. Ideally if you belay on equalised slings, when you escape you have the whole of the unused rope available. With plenty practice following the standard method (your option 1) a climber should be out in a minute or so.

 David Coley 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

By far the easiest way to escape the system is to use the plate in guide mode. Then you just tie a backup knot and walk away.

3
 ExiledScot 07 Apr 2022
In reply to David Coley:

> By far the easiest way to escape the system is to use the plate in guide mode. Then you just tie a backup knot and walk away.

Works on the presumption you're at the top? What about if you're mid route and your second just got hit on the head with your flask when you were having a cheeky brew? 

 jezb1 07 Apr 2022
In reply to David Coley:

> By far the easiest way to escape the system is to use the plate in guide mode. Then you just tie a backup knot and walk away.

Or maybe just solo everything, then it’s even easier.

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 Philip 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Alex Riley:

> You can't transfer the tension to the prussik if the overhand is jammed up to the plate.

You can if you do as described in the OP. When you unclip the belay device from you it will move towards the prussic. After you set up the direct belay and take tight it will then be difficult to remove the knot/belay device.

 AlH 07 Apr 2022
In reply to jezb1 and David Coley:

> Or maybe just solo everything, then it’s even easier.

Probably safer too given the integrity of some of the belays ive seen people belay directly from.

 neuromancer 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

I think some clarity might be needed on the initial instructions that what you are suggesting is someone ties is a RELEASEABLE (i.e. on a bight) overhand behind the belay plate.

The good thing about locking the plate as normal is that it depends upon the friction in the plate to hold the rope. Your method depends on jamming the plate with a knot. Which creates the issue of unjamming the rope. You described this as potentially simpler. It is simpler to do (saves having to pass the rope through the karabiner), but more difficult to deal with once done (because you have a not freeze jammed against the plate).

That said, I'm no guide. I just don't like the prospect of having to do something like this with wet frozen ropes.

Post edited at 15:39
cb294 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

> .....You can back-up the prussik (extra marks for the "k" there I hope) ...

... and ten points detracted for the extra "s".

The guy who popularized that knot for climbing purposes was called Karl Prusik, hard k and single s!

CB

 dobby 200 07 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

It sounds like one of the many options that could lead to more complications down the line.

Somewhat similar to tieing off the belay plate then just removing your harness.

In the right context they both could work, but the 'official' way to escape the system should work in every context.

 Jamie Wakeham 07 Apr 2022
In reply to neuromancer:

> I just don't like the prospect of having to do something like this with wet frozen ropes.

If the knot gets jammed up against the plate it'll be a pain even in dry ropes.  I can't see how this could be recommended as an improvement over the traditional releasable method.

In reply to cb294:

> Karl Prusik, hard k and single s

I wasn't gonna say it, but...

OP Martin Hore 07 Apr 2022
In reply to neuromancer:

> what you are suggesting...... Your method...... You described this as potentially simpler.

I hope that's not the impression I gave in the OP. I'm fairly skeptical about this alternative method. But I wanted to give the chance to anyone who believes this is a better method to persuade me. I hope I'm open to new ideas despite my "3 score years and 10". No-one responding so far has done so, although it would seem there are some instructors out there teaching this as a preferred method.

Martin

 ExiledScot 08 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

Most methods have been tried to death by hundreds of people. The Mountain Instructor assessment course involves 2 days of climbing and improvised rescue, where it feels nearly pitch, certainly route has a terrible accident requiring you to escape, lower off hoist, ab past a knot....

So candidates and instructors have literally spent dozens, likely hundreds of hours refining these components down to their simplest, quickest and safest form. The only real change may occur when new devices appear, or an even thinner rope comes on the market. Instructors will do this themselves and with others on the personal development weekends with other instructors.

It's not that people aren't open to new ideas, they've likely already tested many of them or can visualise the pitfalls. The one to avoid in any system is the second hanging against a non releasable knot, as it means you'll have the added hassle of hoisting their weight off it to progress your escape.

Almost every rescue from any scenario can be covered by a combination of escape the system, hoisting, counter balance abseil or crag snatch. It's just choosing the right techniques, in the right order, for your given predicament. 

 David Coley 11 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Works on the presumption you're at the top? What about if you're mid route and your second just got hit on the head with your flask when you were having a cheeky brew? {Re By far the easiest way to escape the system is to use the plate in guide mode. Then you just tie a backup knot and walk away.}

The walking away bit was shorthand for anything that you might do after escaping the system. You might extract your belay device, cut the rope, grab the sack with the phone in it that was just out of reach, ab to the second, get ready to haul....

The point being that if you use guide mode it is all so much quicker and easier and so much easier to learn. In some of those cases it replaces a 15min fight by the unpracticed, to a 15 second job anyone can do.

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 David Coley 11 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> It's not that people aren't open to new ideas,

I'm not so sure about that. My experience of climbers is that over 50% fit into the category of professional Yorkshiremen: "I've done it that way for thirty year and I'm not changing my ways now". (sorry to those from Yorkshire).

To name a few:

leading in blocks

guide mode

assisted belay devices

2:1 hauling rather than 3:1

That pitches can be a lot longer than they were in 1929

Changing offensive names in guidebooks

Use of traxions

Cordellets or long slings

Masterpoints

Climbing competitions

Rockfax guidebooks

Joining ab ropes with an overhand

That bouldering or top roping is fun and still climbing

.....etc etc etc

3
 Mark Kemball 11 Apr 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

I have to ask, has anyone here ever had to “escape the system” for real rather than just in a practice situation? I’ve never had to in 40+ years of climbing. Maybe I’ve been lucky.

 Rick Graham 11 Apr 2022
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> I have to ask, has anyone here ever had to “escape the system” for real rather than just in a practice situation? I’ve never had to in 40+ years of climbing. Maybe I’ve been lucky

I once had to tie a leader off to a boulder or tree root, solo to the top with the spare rope tails and give a top rope . ( leader stuck mid crux on Elegy at a deserted Roaches , Monday morning , sudden downpour.

Does that count?  Rick , only 54 years climbing.

 David Coley 12 Apr 2022
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I agree, it is rare, but if it happens you do need to be able to deal with it. I've had to a couple of times - to extract a second (for example lightning wall, swanage), but as I was in guide mode, it was little more than untying and throwing a rope down for a haul. 

Friends Luke and Craig had a much more serious need in Pembroke which ended with Craig escaping the system underload and abseiling into the sea to get help.

And another friend who didn't know what to do so couldn't get to her sack which had her phone in to call for help in Chamonix.

These last two were both leader falls. And I would suggest unless you are an instructor, this is going to be the most common (though rare) need: escaping the system as a second from a weighted rope. The one in Chamonix has left her somewhat traumatised over the experience: not being able to do anything but hang on hard, when the phone was just out of reach.

 Mark Kemball 12 Apr 2022
In reply to David Coley:

Thanks, I agree you need to know how to escape, was just curious as I’d not heard of it actually being used in a real situation.  

 Mark Haward 12 Apr 2022
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Three times. Once when my second got their foot stuck in a crack and couldn't get it out by themselves - they were in a bit of a panic really. So I went down and helped. A second time was a second who got hit by rockfall in the alps so had to go down, provide basic first aid and then simul ab. off. Once, again in the alps, when a party near to us got hit by rocks ( not badly injured but very shaken ). My second was just about to leave a stance so I tied them off and soloed across to the party to assist. Got them safe, went back and brought my second up, we both went across and supervised abseiling them back to terra firma.

    Probably doesn't count but I've had to abseil into a couple of crevasses after setting anchors etc.


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