UKC

Just looking at various GPS devices and wondering if it is an essential piece of kit or just a nice to have.

If you have an ABC altimeter, compass, map, knowledge and prior research, most of the time it probably remains in the pack. 

In reply to Murcantile:

Personally I'm happy without. In a fix, I can always use GPS on my phone. 

In reply to Murcantile:

If you've got a map and compass and the skills to use them you can navigate anywhere. A GPS and an altimeter are just convenient niceties - I use a GPS sometimes out of laziness but I find that if I rely on gadgets too much I suffer from skill fade.

In reply to GrahamD:

I've never had one. Neither did generations before me. OS map, compass and ability to pace in bad weather. If you dont have the skills i can see the attraction of gps.. but also the risks.

In reply to Murcantile:

Cue all the willy wavers coming along to tell us how amazing their navigation is...

In reply to Murcantile:

Time spent practicing navigation, is better than money spent trying to avoid it. 

In reply to Murcantile:

Sometimes a ten figure grid reference is just a Godsend, so the simplest GPS is easily worth its weight, maybe even in gold some days. They're good for when you've made -or think you've made -a navigation error and that nagging doubt and complete trauchle of how to check sets in. Especially on plateau white-outs.

In reply to Murcantile:

If you are skiing in fog or spending a lot of time on the Ben Nevis or Cairngorm plateaux, possibly. Otherwise, no need.

In reply to Murcantile:

Definitely not essential but definitely nice to have too. I like mine for recording where I've been, overall height gain, distance etc, even if it's in an area I know well enough to leave the nav gear behind. Also great if you're feeling lazy and just want to enjoy your walk and talk to anyone accompanying you without having to worrying to much about nav. Also good for emergency situations. 

On the down side it's more to carry, batteries to worry about and as Pancakeandchips said, not a good idea to consistently rely on them or you'll be stumped when it does unexpectedly pack up on you. 

In reply to Murcantile:

Depends, you could say maps compass etc aren't necessary. I've spent plenty of time wandering around the countryside without any, never had a problem. Navigation aids come in useful if you want to follow a specific route or be somewhere specific.

Natural navigator by Tristan Gooley?????

Saying that, I have a GPS watch and mapping app on my phone etc. 

In reply to Murcantile:

Essential?  Obviously not, people have managed without for years.  On the other hand, if you can afford to why not take advantage of the tech now available to us?  Some people enjoy the mental challenge of navigating in difficult conditions, but if you don't it's handy to be able to see exactly where you are and where you should be going.  Of course, like all tech you have to be prepared for when it lets you down, and it should be used along with map and compass rather than instead of. 

In reply to Murcantile:

I've never had a problem getting up the tourist paths of Ben Nevis and Mt Snowden simply using the sun and Orions Belt to guide me. 

In reply to DaveHK:

On a site where we all have "Best Onsights" listed by grade on our profiles, and run regular competitions to see who can come up with the best photo of their adventures, it's somewhat surprising that professing to have solid navigation skills could be construed as willy waving... It's a fundamental skill you should have in the mountains, whether you're carrying a gadget or not.

In reply to Murcantile:

My two cents: depends on the mountaineering objective & conditions. Without further info I'd say not essential. Neither is map & compass though. A lot of mountaineering has been done without either.

I find GPS very convenient. To the point that i very rarely use map and compass. Often i don't even take map and compass with me anymore (but that's a calculated risk, depending on conditions and location).

What i feel is most helpful is having a good mountain nose. In mountaineer settings often the right (easiest) way to pass can be so close to all the wrong places, that a map or GPS might not always help. Think e.g. Cuillin. 

I'd rank GPS device second. This could be a phone if conditions are good. But if cold or rainy a separate GPS device would be preferable. Even in good conditions good to have your phone as backup (as it's also your emergency device).

Third (though potentially higher up) I'd rank having done a bit if preparation in advance if possible. Having looked at photos or descriptions in advance can be super helpful.

All of this entirely dependent on personal preference, conditions, location and route. 

In reply to Juan S:

Many folk have followed their mountain nose down five finger gully and through cornices, they were 100% sure they were correct, right up until they weren't. 

In reply to Murcantile:

In most mountaineering scenarios and especially during summer I'd say a compass and map is all you need, but...

I do like the added functionality of an altimeter/GPS watch. I barely use the GPS function when out in the Alps though, generally it's fairly easy to keep track of where you are by keeping an eye on your map and altimeter because the terrain is so outspoken. 

However, all of this changes in bad weather or bad visibility (or both) and then having a GPS unit with a map screen and some important waypoints programmed can be a godsend. Do you need it? No. Is it very helpful? Yes. 

In reply to Murcantile:

I would say it's absolutely not essential. You can navigate fine with map and compass, no matter what the conditions. Despite being fairly comfortable navigating in challenging terrain, I don't try and challenge myself when I don't have to. I've been out in far too many whiteouts, where the weather is rubbish, and it's a lot quicker to just use the GPS to confirm location if trying to find a spur to descend. You've also got the additional safety factor. If I'm out and someone gets hurt I can just get an 8 figure grid easily. This saves a bit of time but importantly would get mountain rescue to the right place if required. However, they have limitations such as battery life, don't rely on it, etc. These days you can get GPS watches which are relatively cheap (<£300).

It's the same reason these days I carry an inReach. Do I need it? No, but all it takes is using it once in an emergency and I'll be glad to have had it.

Then there's the other side for me. I like tracking back to see my route, elevation gain, where I went right, where I went wrong. Was I where I thought I was at various points. How long it took me to walk a certain distance at a certain gradient, etc. All basically stats that aren't essential to anyone, but for me I find them really useful.

In reply to Murcantile:

What sort of places do you intend to go?

In reply to Murcantile:

I picked up a used Garmin Fenix a while back. Having your exact location at a glance on an OS map on your wrist is pretty incredible. I've never 'needed' it yet....but it's definitely a nice to have. When I'm out on my own in the mountains it's quite reassuring that it if detects you've had an accident it'll alert your emergency contacts. At some point I'll probably add an InReach so that feature will work without phone signal. 

In reply to Murcantile:

I've been climbing and back-country navigating for 65 years now.  I know map and compass navigation inside-out.  But nowadays, it's just a backup in case my GPS fails.  Most of the time, just a map does the trick.  But in bad visibility or at night, or bushwacking in Eastern forrests, GPS beats map and compass hands-down.  Forgetting about all the fancy stuff you can do, just being able to look at a map and see your position on it is a big benefit. (And the maps available for phones are far better than the ones for Garmin and don't cost an arm and a leg either. Plus you can get maps with slope angles for winter avalanche estimation and wildfire locations and cell-tower availability, etc. etc.)  Took the wrong fork in the trail? Obvious at a glance with GPS, for example.

I had a fancy Garmin but sold it, because my iPhone is much better.  Here in the US, Gaia GPS is excellent; dunno how it might be in the UK and Europe.

In reply to rgold:

Gaia GPS doesn't offer OS or Harveys mapping so its not much use in the UK. Viewranger used to be the goto option but I'm not sure what the best app is now. Luckily for me Viewranger is still working fine on my phone with previously downloaded 1:25k OS but I'm not sure what I'll do if or when that stops working. My old MRT is switching to the OS app.

I don't think anyone is arguing that having a GPS doesn't make things easier and faster - it clearly does, and on shouts and often when working I'll use it because it frees up a bit of capacity. On the other hand, relocation using a map and compass is an essential skill and practicing it is important to keep your skills sharp for the times when you need it to be absolutely precise and fast. If I'm not in a hurry I make an effort to not use GPS because I don't want to become reliant on it.

I can navigate with map and compass, but a GPS sits in the bottom of my rucksack whevever I'm somewhere where navigation could be challenging if conditions get tough. Navigating in gnarly terrain in an unexpected storm is very challenging,  and making a mistake can be fatally bad, so I'm happy to have every tool to do it as safely and accurately as possible. 

For the cosmiques arete I don't take one. For mont blanc or hut to hut ski touring I always do.

A little different as when at work there's a higher duty of care, but I've been told that the PGHM will expect you to have a GPS when guiding, particularly if there was an incident where not having one made the outcome worse for the injured party. The same for a second form of communication,  which is partly why an inreach mini sits in the bottom of my sack on every outing. The relevant point here is that what's probably the best mountain rescue service have decided that in their experience having these bits of tech makes saving peoples lives easier.

In reply to Murcantile:

Not essential, so long as you have what you say in Para 2, but definitely nice to have, particularly when speed becomes the essence eg end of day, still some way to go and light failing.

Very true, but even if you area really good navigator, it's a nice back up, and can give you reassurance. Very few people can in all honesty be spot on every time, particularly in the dark or in bad weather even if that's we should all strive to aspire to.

As someone has said upthread, it's nice at times, but if you come to rely on it too much your basic navigation skills will suffer and become rusty.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Alps/Scotland/Wales,

I guess for me the consideration is in low visibility e.g. white outs having a GPS will save you from getting turned around and walking off something

Its when the situation is at its worse having a gps device would be literally a lifesaver

The rest of the time, its another toy to gurn over

I have phone and battery pack with various map apps loaded, the GPS isnt the most accurate when in the hills so not sure i trust it enough to not take me off a big drop if i just had my head down and followed the wiggly line. Its a back up though

Purpose built units i would hope to be much more accurate, but i didnt think GPS was totally accurate anyway

In reply to Murcantile:

I refuse to use anything but the movement of the sun. If I can't see it, I simply remain immobile until I can. 

I may occasionally break out the astrolabe and sextant if navigation is tricky. Maps and compasses are for the weak.

In reply to Murcantile:  Depends on where you are , but in those tricky scenarios where you have bad visibility and no landmarks the greatest navigation gods in the world aren't going to help you find  that tricky, single route down.  

UK mountains outside whiteouts aren't tricky.  The most minbendingly lost I've been have been in big woods with few distinct markers. GPS would have made a bif difference here

In reply to Murcantile:

Using a standalone Etrex (non mapping) there's a precision display that indicates how good the fix is (20m, 10m, 5m etc), and a visible satellite count page to let you check when it's ropey (say 50m or so).

When I used to use a SPOT unit though, the breadcrumb trail (on the website) would occasionally take a 500m detour for no good reason. I gave up on SPOT as the cost went too high, the website stayed awful and mobile coverage reached my usual stomping grounds.

In reply to Murcantile:

How accurate do you want it to be?  I've just checked my Garmin and it settled at 3m accuracy, but that's near some trees and I'd usually expect better than that in open country.  That seems entirely adequate for most purposes, especially bearing in mind that the maps we use in the mountains aren't capable of that degree of accuracy. 

In reply to Murcantile: > Alps/Scotland/Wales

In the Alps a GPS could be useful as an altimeter(*), but rarely needed for location; only time I can remmeber when it would have been useful was while ski touring in the Oberland and navigating the upper parts of the Aletchgletscher with the cloud right down.

I can't imagine any need for one in Wales, nor in Scotland in summer. I do carry a basic Etrex when on the more featureless Scottish hills in full snow cover, especially when skiing (since it's pretty much impossible to follow a bearing or judge distance when skiing downhill).

(* my basic Etrex has shown altitudes correct to with 5-10 m on Scottish summits when I've thought to check it)

In reply to Howard 

I use phone maps a lot.  various different apps,  Have found them rather unreliable e.g will place me 20-30m away from where i am actually at. Granted it depends on the app i am using as well but dont have much trust. OS maps was garbage when i used it winter walking. Couldn't hold a position and bounced me all all over the place. was 20 plus m out at some points

I

In reply to Murcantile:

That sounds more accurate than you would ever need or be able to pinpoint on a map anyway. It's only half a millimetre on even a 1 in 25000 map.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hmm if i am reading a map i usually reading the contours, topography etc to work out my position. Consider what i can see around me, make a judgement. My bearings are probably accurate to the nearest 50-100m, when i am using a folded map and siting using a plastic map compass and its blowing gale.

When i look at my phone i blindly follow the little blue line and dot with my neck craned over blind to what is around me. And merrily walk down the wrong gully.

Perhaps there is more to this.....

In reply to Murcantile:

Isn't the blue line going to be 20-30 m wide anyway (so to speak?).

In reply to Murcantile:

There shouldn't be much difference in accuracy between phones and dedicated GPS units.  An Android phone should be accurate to within around 5m. However they're all subject to environmental factors which can reduce accuracy, such as satellite visibility, reflections of buildings or cliffs, trees, etc.  Then there are variables such as the phone's settings and the software you're using. 

A dedicated GPS will be more robust in bad weather, when you're most likely to need it, and easier to use.  Most have replaceable batteries you can change on the hill. 

However even 20-30m is good enough in most situations if you are also looking at the terrain, and probably no worse than most people can achieve with map and compass in poor conditions.  Again, I make the point that the map isn't 100% accurate so total precision isn't possible.

In reply to Howard J:

There isn't - at least not nowadays. Go back 5+ years though and many phones had poor GPS receivers compared to the 12 channel GPSes of the day.  People geocaching with phones used to have a lot of problems at the time compared to people with things like E-trexes, especially under trees.

A really good app is 'GPS status' as you can see the satellites, whether you have lock, and the accuracy.

Agreed, using GPS on a phone all day can use up a lot of battery, certainly too much for an overnight trip.

In reply to Murcantile:

I find GPS really useful when in tree cover or fog/whiteout where you can't see things to conventionally navigate with.  It saves me a lot of time in alpine forests where minor paths are often poorly marked / moved or features aren't shown on 1:50k maps. Yes we can all do pacings and bearings, but you can't concentrate on those and have a good chat with your mate at the same time.  I now use Komoot on my phone and it's excellent, especially when showshoeing when the paths are buried under snow. I still carry map and compass, and will still refer to the map instead of zooming out and scrolling on the phone.

In reply to Murcantile:

In the 1980's we climbed Glover's Chimney in early January. We arrived at the top of Tower Ridge just as it went dark and a storm started. I had written the bearing to the summit cairn in my guidebook and set off pacing towards it, but couldn't find it. After various faffing about we decided to bivvy About 7pm we decided that wasn't such a good idea and anyway we had finished the flask of malt. Somehow we managed to descend into Glen Nevis and were lucky to get a lift back to Fort William from what was probably a couple of poachers in a LandRover.

Having something that gave a map reference of our postion would have been invaluable.

In reply to Murcantile:Essential piece of kit for navigation in the jungle where I live. Maps don’t have sufficient details, no reference points, apart from trees in front or behind. Compass bearings ok but pacing doesn’t work with gullies, fallen trees, rattan etc. while I enjoy using a map and compass, there are places where technology serves its purpose. Plus I carry a spare set of batteries in a sealed bag so they do get wet

In reply to all:

On the specific point of how a GPS watch with maps compares to a phone with maps (and leaving aside whether either is better/worse than a paper map) ...

Not using the phone for maps saves the battery so you're less likely to end up in an emergency with a low phone battery.  Also, watches are much easier to use in appalling weather than phones. The thing that finally convinced me to shell out for a watch with maps was being out fell running with a friend who had one in diabolical weather. While I was crouched on the ground wrestling with layers of gloves and trying to wake up my phone (which I had taken out of my pocket and put into a plastic bag because it's waterproof but not that waterproof) and see the map through the rain, she just looked at her watch - which she was wearing on the outside of her coat sleeve because it actually is waterproof - and went "it's that way".  That was me sold.  I find it's useful to have a phone map and/or paper map too because sometimes I need the overview a larger map gives.

Back on topic, GPS is obviously not essential for mountaineering but it's useful.

In reply to Murcantile:

You never 'need' a GPS... its always an added luxury

In reply to Murcantile: my Suunto watch can give my position as OS map grid ref (or lat and long if I want) . Most of the time I use map/chart and compass for hill walking or sea kayaking but it is nice to check my grid ref if there is a shortage of recognisable features or poor vis. The GPS altimeter is also useful, for example aiming off on a contour line. I wouldn’t trust my phone for this due to uncertain battery life or it getting wet.

In reply to Murcantile:

I very rarely use it but I have a cheap basic garmin that goes into my bag when I’m solo winter mountaineering in a range that I’m not totally familiar with - generally Scotland. 

In reply to Murcantile:

I've never once regretted having one.  I still carry a map and compass.

Couple of things worth considering with a GPS:

1. There is 2x parts to a GPS - the hardware and the map.
2. If you buy a device preloaded with a map ... you practically get the hardware for free but you pay full price for the map .. and maps can be eye wateringly expensive [1] (especially if you're used to getting your maps for free from google maps).
3. If you buy a device without a map you pay basically the hardware price ... but you can load them with opensource maps - which is what I do.
4. Maps need to be refreshed on your device.  If you buy a device preloaded with a map - it will likely update for free.  If you put an opensource map on your device - you'll likely have to refresh it yourself and it can be a little fernickity.
5. Not all maps are equal.  Some are "routable" and some are not ... some are topographic and some are not.
6. While it is technically possible to do your route preparation on your device ... I don't think I ever have - its a total faff.   Need to plan to do your route planning on your PC.

The cheaper end devices like eTrex30 are amazing value ... but the user interface is massively old skool if you're used to using an iPhone.  The garmin 6xx series is a very strong offering.   Touch screen devices & large screen devices will use more power - but in the case of hiking ... we actually want to preserve all possible power at all times.

Def not something you will regret owning .. particularly if you enjoy a good bit of map geeking.

[1] Garmin 1:25 topographic map UK - https://www.garmin.com/en-GB/p/562503 £349.99!!!!

In reply to StuPoo2:

MemoryMap have OS1/25k maps for £82.50:

https://w2.memory-map.com/cgi-bin/licuser.cgi?buydealer=1&feature=0x100...

Combine this with a rugged smartphone such as something from the Ulefone range and you have a very serviceable device, far preferable, in my experience, to a standalone Garmin GPS device.