UKC

I'm after a bit of advice on boats. Nothing fancy...

I used to dabble in a sea kayak, but it currently sits in the garden gathering spiders. These days my best chance of getting any time on the water is to do it with the kids.

We're hoping to kit the family out with a couple of twin-seat sit-on kayaks. The estate car or MPV of the kayak world perhaps, but they seem to be the solid choice in the circumstances. We've had fun on other people's, so we've a general idea what they're all about.

We'll be mucking about on our local freshwater lochs and the occasional mini tour on calm sea, strictly inshore and straightforward.

We clearly want something stable but with enough keel to track in a straight-ish line. Some watertight storage wouldn't go amiss. Seats with a bit of lumbar support for the oldies.

But where to start?

Buying new, there's quite a range from cheap-ish to spendy. I'm sure you get what you pay for, but also hope there's maybe an affordable/good enough sweet spot, given our non-ambitious family remit. Second hand always an option of course, but I don't pretend to know what would be a worthwhile buy so I could easily come home with a barge.

I've never used an inflatable kayak. They've obviously become more of a thing in recent years, so I guess they're decent enough and maybe all we need. But instinctively I'd go for rigid because I'd (rightly or wrongly) assume they're both more seaworthy and more robust. On the other hand blow-up boats are going to be more portable, and generally seem cheaper. Have I summarised that right?

So, plastic or pump-up? I wondered if anyone with experience of both might feel qualified to comment?

We did ponder the idea of getting four single boats. The kids (9 and 11) have enjoyed paddling on their own on the occasions we've tried it, and I'd like to encourage some boat handling skills. But the logistics of transport and the cost have put us off. More importantly, I think safety would be easier managed with two big boats than four smaller ones. 

I'd appreciate general tips and opinions on all that. Also specific recommendations of makes and models probably wouldn't go amiss.

Finally: if we did buy new, where's a good kayak shop in Scotland? I'd much rather take advice from a sales assistant who knows their cag from their skeg, and support an independent retailer, than give Decathlon any more cash than we already do.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I have 2 Ocean Frenzy kayaks which are great.

Paid £350 for one and £300 for the other on gumtree.

Very stable and use these at Arisaig around the skerries.

I thought about inflatable but the negatives outweighed the positives.

They cut well through a choppy sea, not as efficient as a sit in sea kayak obviously but pretty good against swell, tide ans wind.

Pretty easy to get back on if needed but haven’t capsized yet in anger.

They stack well on a Volvo v70 .

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com: almost the same scenario  as you , sea kayaked for several years but some time ago . I was sceptical about sit ons until I borrowed a couple over the long bank holiday to try with the kids - 14 ,13, 10 to play about and go fishing from on the lake . I’m totally sold and think they are an excellent choice for kids . Far far safer than the paddle boards they wanted . I borrowed a pair of ocean kayak s ( brand ) frenzy s . They are the rolls Royce of sit ons and are bomb proof. I got  one off eBay with a paddle and seat for £300 locally and I’m really pleased with it . I’m now looking for another the same . I’ve got the chance of an OK Scrambler which is a bit bigger and hence heavier and I can’t decide . Another good brand is RPM and I’m looking at a couple of their boats later in the week . Be aware it difficult / impossible to get them shipped so you have to look locally .  

i used a two man inflatable on loch lomond a couple of weeks back, it wasn't the best to be honest but yes it is compact and cheaper

if your budget stretches and logistics allow, id go plastic

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Use ours a lot on the Exe Estuary,  which has a "sporting" 8knt tide and is less than flat most of the time, and also out in the sea.

We have Scooter sit ons by perception.  Absolutely brilliant.  Stable, paddle pretty straight and also great for a cheeky surf in suitable conditions.  They have small watertight stores, although I would still use a dry bag.

We have had ours for 12yrs+, very sturdy and as good as new. With good paddles you can get a good speed up without killing your arms.

I haven't got personal experience of the blow up ones, but everytime I see one I can't help feeling glad we haven't got those.

Can get both, plus 2 surf boards on roof bard with a vertical bar set that holds one on its edge. The other goes flat on the boards. 

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I can't help you with recommending a  sit on top kayak, other than saying beware of any offshore wind, but it sounds like you know that already. 

As for a good shop in Scotland,  I'd say Oban Sea Kayaks are hard to beat. Excellent service and very knowledgeable. 

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

We have a Gumotex 2 person inflatable which has lasted well, over 10 years, and has mainly been used for local canal and river trips. We have paddled down the Fal and Dart in it but I wouldn't recommend an inflatable for anything exposed to wind. I certainly wouldn't want to be out in the open sea or a large Loch in one (Lomond, Sheil, Ness etc). As a general rule the longer the boat the better it tracks in a straight line, which is good if you are paddling reasonable distances, but less suitable for surfing/turning. I've got an Ocean kayaks SOT, bought as a cosmetic second. It's a fishing kayak, although I don't use it for that. It's well made, very stable and easy to paddle, so I would imagine that their tandem kayaks are the same.

These people are good.

https://www.seakayakoban.com/

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

phizz4 writes:
"These people are good."
https://www.seakayakoban.com

You said you did some sea kayaking a while ago, so if you know the shop it's perhaps worth a mention that it changed hands a few years ago.  Mark and Laura (the new owners) are really good.
(The shop was quite highly recommended to me under it's previous owners a few years previously, but I wasn't particularly impressed.)

Argyll Kayaks (formerly known as Karitek) in Ardrishaig are also very good.  I see that they've recently branched out slightly to include some SOT's into their hire stock, so there might be the possibility of trying before you buy there.
https://www.argyllkayaks.co.uk/kayak-sot-sup-hire

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

As a sit-in sea kayaker i had been a little dismissive of sit on tops. My opinion changed recently during a solo paddle where i caught up with a couple on a sit on top as we passed through a brief but lumpy tide race at the tip of an island where they navigated it with ease and style, they were obviously experienced and capable.

Another recommendation for Mark and Laura at Sea Kayak Oban. They have only recently started  to stock sit on tops and will be sure to recommend something sea worthy and applicable to your needs. They will also be pleased to discuss over the ‘phone in advance of a visit.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I'm a kayaker and, after visiting some friends that had a couple of sit-on-tops, we bought an Osprey OSX for my non-paddler wife, which would fit your brief - big enough and stable enough to get 1 adult + child on it, had 2 hatches for stashing kit (but still use a dry bag) and some bungee cords on the back for a dry bag. Also had a clip-on seat and the keel helped it track quite well.

Downsides are they are quite heavy for what they are, aren't very manouverable in the water (due to the keel) and you'll need roof bars to take them anywhere. Ideally, you also need a high-back PFD to get best comfort from the seat.

In the end, due to logistics, we only kept it a year and then sold it to fund 2 paddle boards - came with kayak seats that clip on, so sort of best of both worlds and a lot easier to store and transport.

My Uncle has a couple of the 2-person plastic ones that he keeps in his seaside holiday home and uses a lot for fishing in the bay and pratting around with my cousins and their kids.

In reference to the inflatable ones, some friends have the 2 and 3 person Itiwit ones from Decathlon and rave about them - although I've yet to have a go in one. Bought my Mum a cheap inflatable Canadian for her birthday, more for a laugh than in any seriousness, and it just won't take the pressure to stay rigid enough to be of any use on anything other than flat water and folds up if you're not careful.

If you go inflatable, get an electric pump!

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Why sit on? You can get wide twin sit in kayaks that are sea kayaking suitable but not the thin traditional design with keyhole. Something like Wavesport Horizon.

Then you get the back support, connectivity, spray deck....

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

If considering inflatable options this is a good resource

https://inflatablekayaksandpackrafts.com/

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I've kayaked fairly widely on the west coast of Scotland as well as abroad in an inflatable kayak.

I used to have rigid boats but for me inflatables are the way forward. 

I'd much rather be in an inflatable in rough water than an enclosed boat with spray deck. On the rare chance I tip over, it's minimal hassle to climb back in.

The huge advantage they have over rigid sit-ons is their portability. It fits easily in the boot of the car and once inflated I can comfortably carry it down to the water on my own.

It's also flown with me to Corsica, Majorca,  Tenerife and the Greek Islands.

The main disadvantage is that it isn't as fast as rigids - a bit like a mountain biker riding with a road biker.

Great for the kids - when young they just used it as a big floating toy.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Thanks a lot for all the advice, there's plenty for us to think about here. Now just got to do some creative accounting so we can convince ourselves we really can afford it. Price of these things is scary.

In reply to Philip:

If it was just me then I would stick with a proper kayak (and don't need to buy anything) but as a relative numpty I don't think I could be sure of keeping the kids safe in flood-able boats that they could also feasibly capsize and get stuck in. Sit-on has more of a safety margin for our needs. Also I suspect more fun for just prattling about, swimming etc

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Just to throw my 2 cents in - 

I recently bought one of the cheapest 2 person inflatable kayaks I could find (the Intex Challenger K2).

I had a price watch on amazon for ages and when the price dipped I bought it for about £120 or something like that. Although it looks cheap in the photos, like a toy, when you pump it up it feels very, very robust and tough and safe, it definitely doesn't feel like a toy when you are up close or using it. It's very stable.

I bought it after much, much reading and watching videos and reviews online. Basically it came down to:

1) the cheapest inflatables are generally wider and therefore more stable, so easier to get the three year old in it without risk of it toppling over. The far more expensive drop-stitch ones are typically much narrower and wobbly (I read).

2) the cheapest inflatable kayaks are single skin, the "middle price" kayaks that are c. £300-700 tend to have sort of canvas second layer on top of the inflatable bit. I read that this can be difficult to dry and gets mouldy easily. Drop-stitch I read were the most expensive and can go up to £1500+, though I gather they are also single skin so easier to dry again.

3) it was the cheapest option, so if we don't end up using it very much it's not too much of an loss, and could probably sell it.

4) as someone else said, I can fit it in the car boot along with a small pram for for the baby + picnic etc.

5) I will only be using it on canals, perhaps a calm river / lake if I can find one, so don't need something high performance.

6) I saw video on YouTube of a guy who had had one for about 3 years and had been using it on canals etc. and he basically said it's far better than just "adequate" and even better considering the relatively low cost.

7) you can stick the seats down in a few different places so easy to balance out the weight if you want to use it on your own.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

At 9 they are old enough to learn to safely exit a kayak in the event of a capsize - book sessions with your local club or an activity centre to teach them the basics. Learning sitting position, effective paddling technique and a few basic support strokes will make paddling both more fun and safer regardless of what type of boat you settle on.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I missed your kid's ages yesterday.

At that age, you could look at kid-specific kayaks / sit-on-tops like the Dagger Dynamo or Ocean Ranger Junior - you can pick used ones up relatively cheap on eBay. Make sure you also get kid-length paddles

If they get tired, you can use a tow line to give them a rest.

With roof bars and kayak uprights, it's possible to get 4 kayaks on a car roof.

Edit - I can just about get into a Dynamo and makes a fun squirt boat!

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I suspect there will be a fair few bought in lockdowns that are now gathering dust.  Some asks and monitoring of local FB buy and sell groups would probably turn something up.

PS. If you're out in a wind against tide situation I'd strongly recommend leashing yourself to your paddle and boat, they fly away very quickly if there's no-one sat in them.

In reply to kevin stephens:

I know someone who crossed the Channel from Weymouth to Alderney on a Hobie with fins underneath. Was an absolute doddle apparently.

In reply to LastBoyScout:

Also check out Facebook MarketPlace and Gumtree.

In reply to LastBoyScout:

Thanks, yeah been keeping tabs on the 2nd hand sites. But we live in the north highlands so most sellers are hundreds of miles away. And actually used stuff doesn't seem that cheap either. I guess boats hold their value

In reply to Toerag:

Although unfortunately they're now in Rwanda.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Sorry, I'm just dipping in here and replying as I get time. Apologies if I'm covering things you already know, but for the benefit of others reading...

As a kayak coach, I've never had any child get stuck in a capsized kayak. This is partly down to the fact that (certainly on courses) the boat and cockpit is much bigger than the child, so they fall out without any effort. It's possible, but would only really happen if a shoelace got caught on the foot rest, or something. You can mitigate this by not wearing shoes with laces, etc.

Airbag(s) in the back of the kayak will stop it flooding in a capsize - the boat should have enough of it's own buoyancy to stay on the surface, even full of water, but will weigh a ton. Foam blocks, or even another small airbag, in the front of the boat behind the foot rests will also help. Airbags need to be properly inflated and secured, so they don't just float out. When I'm instructing, I sometimes have an airbag on one side and a dry bag with supplies on the other side.

If you have your own kayak, then it's definitely worth fitting it out with hip pads and back rest and padding the knee area - otherwise, the effort you put in paddling doesn't get efficiently translated to moving the kayak. Most of the skills rely on being able to edge and lean the kayak and you can't do that effectively if you're not able to control the hull. This can be crucial in waves and is something you can't generally do in sit-on-tops/inflatables, unless they have thigh straps (I'm ignoring surf-skis, which are specifically designed for surfing, as that's not what you're looking at).

Once you get into spray deck territory, start off with a nylon one and keep the elastic loose at first - neoprene will be very hard for a child to get off, as they're intended to stand up to white water pressures.

In reply to LastBoyScout: as a sea kayaker there are two schools of thought. Those transitioning from WW do seem to like their hip pads and knee pads etc nice and tight, however many of us prefer not to be so tight in the boat , allowing the boat to rock around us in conditions while keeping our bodies relatively still, of course with foot pegs set so that we can engage the knees and bum to edge and lean etc when we need to. Also we have buoyancy built in with our storage hatches 

In reply to LastBoyScout:

Thanks for the tips. My skills aren't anywhere near ingrained enough to teach the kids much. We'll start with sit-on pottering but if they take to it and want more then we can hopefully progress it via a local club later

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I know sweet *** about kayaks but my work colleague is a big enthusiast and he's be enthusing about kayacat for use by him and/or daughter, dunno if easy to get second hand ( not cheap new) but maybe look into them?

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Dan, I have a kayak shop on Windermere.  I'd suggest you come and hire a sit on top kayak, might help make your mind up. We sell used boats/paddleboards as well if it helps. https://www.windermerecanoekayak.com.    Cheers Paul.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Hey Dan.

My thoughts - if you have the space at home, and you have a car that suits carting boats about (roof rack etc), then a plastic boat is 10x better than a blow up one.  I won't be buying a blow up boat.

The Wave Sport Scooter is a great SOT - you'll sometimes hear it referred to as a Perception Scooter but unless I'm mistaken Perception licensed the mold the Wave Sport i.e. exactly the same boat.  

Someone said something about about being worried about getting stuck in a traditional river boat i.e. kids Dagger Dynamo.  I don't think it's a problem to worry about.  My experience is that without a spray skirt on you will struggle to stay in a river boat upside down - particularly so if a child.  The hole is so large now that you basically fall out of it.  I've never had problems with people stuck upside down in the boat .. 

Few other things worth considering

1. Plastic boats should be stored away form direct sun light - it degrades he plastic in the long term.  i.e. ideally you keep them it in the garage.
2. 9 & 11 - the kids will get SIT's super fast - minutes.  I'm not mega convinced that they'll pick up too much in the "boat handling skills" though but they'll certainly learn to paddle - the boats are so stable that you can't go too wrong.  If you wanted boat handling skills ... a dynamo would be preferable, but with a proper boat there is an increased learning curve.  
3. Given the age of the kids .. I'd probably consider buying 2nd hand.  The kids may well grow out of the idea faster than you want them too.  
4. May/June/July is buying season for boats ... i.e. most on the market but also possibly higher prices.  Ebay, gumtree, facebook .. all good places.  Look out of the usual nonsense.  On the plus side, if you buy quality and take care of it .. you stand a good chance of being able to sell it for similar money a year from now.
5. If buying 2nd hand plastic boats you're looking for a few things:  welds (bad - don't buy), deep gouges or scores (medium - but not show stopper) and all the bits (i.e. seats).  SIT's get dragged over sand ... so you ought not to have any welds - which tend to happen on river boats.  Deep gouges or scores can happen if they'll lashed their boat poorly onto the car i.e. if they've used rackets (totally unnecessary - don't use them!) to hold the boat onto the car then the racket can gouge into the plastic if there isn't a pad underneath.  Gouges or scores are not ideal and can be repaired.  All the bits can be a nuisance if buying 2nd hand.  Most SIT's have a molded seat that is, IMO, deeply uncomfortable to sit in for any length of time.  Most SIT's will have come with a seat [1] - I'd highly recommend.  Adds padding and back support.  Basically .. there should be scuffs along the bottom .. and not much else.
6. Remember to price in buoyancy aids and paddles.  kids will needs kid specific ones of both.

That all being said ... my recollection is that your in the east of Scotland somewhere.  There are clubs at Kirkcaldy & Lochore Meadows.  They'll all have the kit for taster sessions inc. typically some kids boats.  [2]  You can join the SCA through the clubs as a affiliate member and get the same access to insurance etc.  Lot of like minded people. 

[1] https://www.wavesport.com/en/outfitting/sit-top-outfitting

[2] https://www.canoescotland.org/go-paddling/find-events-courses-and-clubs-old...

In reply to StuPoo2:

Hi Stu, I'm genuinely interested why you have such a downer on inflatables? 

Each to there own but over the last decades I've become more of an inflatable fan.

It's interesting that you perceive rigid sit ons are 10x better, having had both I'd have to disagree. They are different ideas which achieve the same objective.

Your plastic sit ons are basically an inflatable with a rigid skin!

In reply to obanish:

Yo!!

There is no right or wrong answer to this question - it depends on your situation and what you intend to do with it.

I'm a river runner & play boater ... can't do either of those with inflatables.  Plastic boats are faster in the water, track better, vastly more durable, lower maintenance, faster setup, can roll them, can surf them, can take them on planes and pack all your stuff inside, have better resale value ....  a high quality plastic boat, if stored correctly, can last 25 years easy.  The lifespan of a inflatable boat is significantly less than a plastic boat but the prices are not that different.

On the flip side the plastic boats are heavier, bulkier, harder for some to handle outside of the water  without a little help (bit of a lump to shift around - need to be able to muscle them up onto the roof rack).  They don't work for everyone. Certainly more of a pain to store if you don't have a decent garage or a club lock up.

I don't deny that the inflatables have come a long way in the last 10 years - I have an inflatable SUP and think its great as long as the wind doesn't get up too much.  I think inflatables are an excellent choice for beginners or those who are short of space.  I know of ~zero people who have taken their paddling to intermediate level and stuck with an inflatable boat.

If its of any value - I wouldn't buy a fiberglass boat either.  I'd buy a composite boat though for slalom obviously.

As you said .. each to their own .. buy what works for you.

In reply to StuPoo2:

Thanks Stu, I can see where you are coming from and agree that inflatables can't compete with plastic boats for play boating.

I would argue though that there is very little time difference between two of you hoiking a rigid on the roof and one person putting their inflatable in the boot.

Where does this stuff about inflatables and wind come from? I've heard it repeated so much over the years and personally I'd much rather be out in a blow in my boat where if it does tip over I just climb back in and a decked boat where if you fail to roll you have problems.

I don't think an inflatable is any more affected than any other canoe with the same windage.  Having said that if it's blowing, I’ll put a leash to me because I accept if the wind got under it you can kiss it goodbye.

After 40 years of paddling my fibreglass sea kayak, plastic river boat and royalex canoe have all been and gone but my inflatable remains😀

In reply to obanish:

I haven't ever used an inflatable,  so temper my comments with that thought...

When we bought our sit ons specifically for use with or by the kids, what happens if they get tipped out was top of the list, above storage, transport,  speed of use etc. As I mentioned in my post above, our local water, Exe Estuary and the sea nearby can be a bit unforgiving. 

The rigid plastic ones simply cannot sink, or fill or be hard to right or get back onto. We use ours in the surf and get rolled frequently (!) and their only downside is being careful not to get clouted by them. However far more likely is that you just surface wearing them as a nice hat....!!

Even in deep water their sturdiness makes it easy to get back into (onto) them, and especially with the paddle attached with a lease, they don't get blown away from you quickly, even in a gale.

That's our experience with them anyway. 😁

In reply to obanish:

Hey matey.

Good use of hoiking!!!!  Def don't disagree that it takes less time to sling an inflatable in the boot vs strapping a plastic boat the roof.  Maybe 5(?) mins for me to take a boat off the rack in the garage, onto the J racks and strap it - ish?  (Maybe I'm fast .. I paddle a couple of times a week)  But you don't have to inflate a rigid boat on arrival.  

So I think it comes from the whole "in the water" vs "on the water" i.e. where the boat sits.  A plastic boat sits in the water with the waterline ~50% up the side of the boat (even more if you've got a full slice!).  An inflatable sits higher "on the water" - as does an open boat.  I can't comment on an inflatable kayak as I've never owned one, but with both the inflatable SUP and the open boat I have .. I've had to trim them quite a bit on a windy day to make them paddlable.  

Keep me right .. but I think they stopped Royalex back in 2012(?).  Was great stuff!!!  Certainly the biggest problem I have the with plastic boats .. is the space they take up.  No way round it ... they're bulky if you want to keep them at home and out of the sun in the garage.  A club lockup/container is ideal as long as you can get your own key.   I have mine strapped to the roof of the garage.  Folding J racks are a good investment too .. because you can leave them on the car beside the bike racks.  If you have the rigid j-racks there will be times you need to take them on/off.  Of course .. if you buy plastic boats you don't need racks .. you can just strap them to the roof bars if you're happy with that.

Cheers.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Massive thanks to everyone who took the time and effort to reply to this thread. I've found it really helpful, and I'm sure other readers will too.

I wasn't having any joy finding 2nd hand stuff in a driveable distance of the north highlands, and Oban seemed too far to go for a shop. So in the end with summer hols fast approaching we took the plunge and bought two new Wave Sport Scooters online at a really decent price (thanks Northeast Kayaks) having heard good things about them. Plus kids paddles and buoyancy aids.

So brand new plastic sit-ons won. Can't wait for it all to arrive.

In reply to PaulN:

Thanks a lot for the offer Paul, if we'd been in striking distance of Cumbria I'd have given you a shout

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com: just revisiting this thread as I now have now got  two sit on s of my own and two on loan so four in total . I was going to say you could take them out on bassenthwaite to have a go . No need now !

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

We've Preception Triumph 13' sit on boats.... I swapped from a Canadian canoe as redt of family had sit ons - as they dont sink.

Big enough to carry weekend camping gear and use in some fairly choppy water - even with a 20kg plus dog also sat on the cockpit with me

In reply to LastBoyScout:

It happened to me years ago, probably aged about 13-14 or so, in an old fibreglass kayak with a small cockpit (and I'm quite big and was even then).  It was abjectly terrifying and put me off for a very long time.  Fortunately the instructor was there very quickly so I could push back up off his boat.

Modern day kayaks have larger cockpits so it's unlikely, I would agree.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Looking forward to hearing about you portaging them over hills into remote parts of Scotland, preferably with piles of food and drink

Enjoy. There are hundreds of places within striking range for you to use these, and whilst you may plan to stick to inshore and sheltered spots, the joy of a sit-on-top like these is that they can, with the right care and judgment of conditions, explore bits of coast too.

You also get to buy lots of nice shiny Dry Bags now.