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Egregious Guidebook Discrepancy!

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 Philchris 16 Jun 2022

Not the name for my new prog rock band, but what is the biggest discrepancy you've spotted between guidebooks/ topos? 

For context, I was out at Wilton yesterday and me and my partner had a go at Fingernail (VS 4c) which is VS in the Rockfax app and HS in the Lancashire guide, but not only that, takes a different line! My pal was calling me for all kinds for suggesting he'd gone off route.

So what have you got? What's the biggest gap between guidebooks descriptions you've spotted?

(NB. the climb was great, guidebook writers are brilliant and this is in no way a criticism!) 

1
 cathsullivan 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

Bracket and Slab Climb on Gimmer - Severe in the definitive FRCC guide. VS4b in Rockfax.

I think the two guides do describe different routes though, rather than giving the same pitches different grades. The definitive guide mentions a variant on the first pitch, which it gives MVS4b. I think the Rockfax description includes this 'variant'.  Also, the definitive guide desribes Amen Chimney as a variant (again at 4b) and I think the Rockfax also includes this.  So, I guess there's a reason for the difference.  I've only ever done pitch one, by both variations, so I can't comment on the chimney bit. Seems a bit odd for Rockfax to include a variant of a classic rock route with a much higher grade as if it were the actual route (assuming that is what's happened) but I guess the guidebook writers can do what they like.

 Mick Ward 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

Propeller Wall - VS to E5.

Think there's one up on the moors around Kinder way that went from V Diff to E5 6c.

Mick 

In reply to Philchris:

There's a severe on Cyfrwy Pisa (HS 4b) that has different upper pitches depending on whether you follow the 2002 Meirionydd guide or the 1985 mid-wales guide. If you follow the more recent description and go to the right of the overhang you end up on a loose HVS Minnie the Minx (HVS 5a).

OP Philchris 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Mick Ward:

Were those climbs ever listed like that in different, contemporary guidebooks? I mean rather than grade creep over time? That's a hell of a surprise for the VS leader!

 Offwidth 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Mick Ward:

That Noe Stool climb was misidentified. The original line climbed up to the bulge then traversed round to the back of the block and up (still a sandbag in modern terms being at least VS....yet at the time of the FA, taking into account combined tactics on a bouldery start, the VD grade wouldn't have been that far out). I've always been impressed with the consistency  of early gritstone guidebook grading, taking into account the equipment and skill sets of the time.

Post edited at 10:29
 Godwin 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

Sharks Fin Scoop at Wallabrorow, VS on Rockfax, E2 in the latest frcc tome

 cathsullivan 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Godwin:

Oh, yes! I'd forgotten about that one. It was VS in the previous Duddon Guide too. I have only ever seconded it (I value my unbroken legs) but thought it was pretty dangerous at that grade as you'd expect better gear.  There's been a lot of upgrades at Wallowbarrow in the new Duddon guide which has led to discrepancies with UKC ... but I think often with UKC database grades people just enter the grade from the guidebook.  Am guessing Shark's Fin Scoop isn't in the Rockfax lakes selected?

Post edited at 10:49
 TobyA 16 Jun 2022
In reply to cathsullivan:

> Bracket and Slab Climb on Gimmer - Severe in the definitive FRCC guide. VS4b in Rockfax.

Did it last summer using the rockfax - and it does indeed take the crack for p1 which is great climbing and no pushover from memory. I think you are right about the upper crack/chimney too - aren't they right next to each other and finish is the same groove? We took the "obvious line", which i think actually is vdiff, although a good struggle at that, rather than the crack literally next to it that looked hideous in comparison!

 cathsullivan 16 Jun 2022
In reply to TobyA:

> ... I think you are right about the upper crack/chimney too - aren't they right next to each other and finish is the same groove? ..

That's the impression I get from reading the definitive guide ... but never done it for some odd reason.

It's a long time since I climbed the pitch one variant but I wrote in my notes afterwards that I thought it was much harder than 4b. Might've been having an off day though.  I think the original pitch one seemed fine at severe when I did that to get to Ash Tree Ledge.

 Offwidth 16 Jun 2022
In reply to TobyA:

It's a 1923  route ... in the early days, when there wasn't much protection other than rope 'slings', hideous looking wide cracks were often a more secure option and climbs sometimes took on such 'fun' features that could be bypassed. I don't remember the easier chimney on the right but do remember the left-hand overlapping narrow chimney was an interesting tussle.

 Mick Ward 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

I'm pretty sure Propeller Wall was (although I think it's now dropped to a mere E4). 

HVSs at Malham in the 1960s/70s (e.g. Carnage, Wombat) were traps for the unwary. Now E2. Ivy Groove at Gordale, HVS to E3. There were lots of anomalies. 

Mick 

1
 Mick Ward 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

Ah, many thanks for that. 

Mick 

In reply to Mick Ward:

The Yorkshire guide writers were very reluctant to adopt the "Extreme" grade I seem to recall as were the Scottish ones who seemed to get stuck on "VS" for many years.

In all fairness many of the routes graded HVS did at least use pegs for aid here and there.  Me and my mates always made a point of doing them without.  Not because we were particularly good simply that we hated the feeling of using them directly.

 Street 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

I always thought the Lancs Rock book was the more up to date grade as it was only published in 2016, whereas the Rockfax guide was 2009. There are quite a few discrepancies between the two around Wilton but I've always gone with the Lancs Rock grade.

OP Philchris 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Street:

It definitely felt more VS than HS that's for sure. The most surprising thing was the different lines of the route from each guide. This led to a bigger argument than the grade!

 olddirtydoggy 16 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

How much has the equipment tamed some of the routes graded from years ago? We bought a set of Dragonflys a couple of years back and it opened up a few climbs at a grade that previously I wouldn't have tackled.

Funny that some routes have been upgraded, kind of goes against the gear making them safer.

1
 LakesWinter 17 Jun 2022
In reply to TobyA:

Rockfax have mucked around with the original start to Bracket and Slab Climb (VS 4b)

The original, Severe start is a decent pitch - they describe Bracket and Slab with the direct start, probably so there's 2 4b pitches. However, this is messing with the line of the original and classic route. A more balanced way of describing it would be to describe the original line and say that the crux chimney can be avoided by the parallel V diff chimney to the right, which is actually onGimmer Chimney (VD)

Then you get a balanced and classic Severe

 LakesWinter 17 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

I nominate 'B' Route (VS 5a)

It has never seen VS and bears no relationship to any VS in Langdale terms of sustainedness or seriousness. Also the crux is about 4b and has good gear. So S 4b would cover it. Upgrades like this distort the whole grading system and could get someone in trouble as all the other classic VS routes in Langdale like Rake End Wall (VS 4c)

Cravat (VS 4c) are much more sustained and difficult and serious

 alan moore 17 Jun 2022
In reply to LakesWinter:]

> A more balanced way of describing it would be to describe the original line and say that the crux chimney can be avoided by the parallel V diff chimney to the right,

Or, even better, ignore all chimneys and go left up the Gangway to the airy finishes of B Route or Lyons Crawl.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

The biggest anomaly I know in this regard is Hargreaves Original at Stanage.  It used to be Severe with no gear at all but now it's VS with several cams.

 Offwidth 17 Jun 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpantsde :

There are any number of climbs on grit that have shifted more with the same change in protectability.

Hargreaves does illustrate an important point on grade creep. It was indeed Severe in '51, HS in '64, and VS from '76. Such routes arguably should have been downgraded as protection improved, so the editorial decisions obviously produced very significant grade creep, the biggest ever in fact (and much earlier than some would claim it does).  Worse still, the overall transition was sloppy with many less classic routes left unchanged, leaving gritstone peppered with nasty sandbags, even as late as '89. Lynn and I started our "Offwidth" site to look at Peak grit grades... our main aim of getting more consistent grading across all routes on Peak grit has been achieved, thanks to modern guidebooks, but the site is still useful for tracking grades through the years, from the earliest definitive (needs a Flash enabled browser like Puffin, to view). With no sense of the irony involved, a few critics accusing us of fostering grade creep in our efforts to have the same grading on no star routes as on classics in the latest definitive guidebooks!

https://offwidth.uptosummit.com/popular_end_right.html

Post edited at 08:27
 Offwidth 17 Jun 2022
In reply to LakesWinter:

I'd say the upgrade of Bowfell Buttress to HS 4b was a worse example of modern overgrading. At the other end of modern grading foolishness Land's End Long Climb which we think should be bold HS (and is at least top end S) hasn't changed.

1
In reply to Philchris:

The hand crack on Guiffra-Monaci (TD 6b) in the current/last Rockfax guide is actually an offwidth,  and the route instead takes the peg protected wall on the left. I wish I knew this at the time, would've saved some terrifying grovelling!

 LakesWinter 17 Jun 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

You may well be right - I've not done Bowfell Buttress though so can't comment on that one.

 C Witter 17 Jun 2022
In reply to Godwin:

Hi Bedspring!

2
 C Witter 17 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

The biggest discrepancies, I find, are not usually between contemporaneous guidebooks... which are usually cribbing from each other... but between the guidebooks and the rock! However, where routes are cramped together, e.g. local limestone outcrops, I have found some errors repeated over the years as well as lines shifting position.

One classic error, apparently, is that the names of Little Chamonix and Chamonix, at Shepherds, were originally the other way around... I've also heard that Adam originally took the line now described as Crunchy Frog.

I did find the Rockfax upgrading of all Lakes MVS routes to VS annoying, as MVS is a classy Cumbrian grade. The (FRCC) Bowfell Buttress upgrade was laughable; the Rockfax messing with the line and grade of Bracket and Slab was a bit confusing, really, as it is a Classic Rock route and very few CR routes are VS... it felt a bit tonedeaf. There were also some silly upgrades in the new FRCC Duddon guide, e.g. Thomas pushed up from S to HS and... laughably... Trinity Slabs to S! (Trinity Slabs being a soft-touch VDiff that's perfect for introducing new leaders to multipitch... and being easier than Wall and Corner).

2
 George_Surf 17 Jun 2022
In reply to C Witter:

MVS... I’ve always wondered what on Earth is the point in that grade? I know it’s a lakes thing, but I thought routes were pretty well described without it. Kinda like HVD...just call it a severe if it’s borderline/hard?! HVS is obviously very useful since there’s a big gap between VS and e1

1
 C Witter 17 Jun 2022
In reply to George_Surf:

What is the point of any grade? There is a satisfaction in the (somewhat regional) idiosyncrasy of the grade... Not everything must be flattened out and made uniform. Slip Knot on White Ghyll or Digitation on Wallowbarrow are definitive MVS, and nowt else will do.

 petegunn 17 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

I've got a copy of Rock Climbing in Northern England by Bill Birkett and John White 1990.

Armathwaite grades are quite different!

Erection VS now E1

Dome Slab E3 now E6

Paper Moon E1 now E3/4

Free and Easy E2 now E5

Andy's Slab E2 now E4

There are lots of other better known crags in the guide ie Bowden, Brimham, Caley etc and there are quite a few routes where the grades are 2 or so out!

Post edited at 23:16
 C Witter 17 Jun 2022
In reply to petegunn:

My impression is that quite a few routes have suffered from erosion, e.g. starting holds are higher because ground is lower! At least, this is what Ron Kenyon said of Time and Motion Man (E1 5b), which seemed a bit of a sandbaggy E1 5c.

OP Philchris 18 Jun 2022
In reply to George_Surf:

Funnily enough, I've always liked the 'inbetweenie' grades - Hard Severe, Hard V. Diff, Mild VS and so on. I've always felt there was an encouragement in there to give the grade a go. There's a massive difference between Severe and VS so a couple of intermediates are welcome when you're just strating out. Feels like an achievement. 

 Howard J 18 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

No one seems to be able to agree where Poor Man's Peuterey (S 4a) starts. I've always used the V-chimney, probably originally following the Ron James guidebook.  Paul Williams also described this start. However the 2000 CC guide says that's the start of Borchgrevinck (S) and has PMP starting at an earthy ledge (although it offers the groove as an alternative). The 2010 edition retains this, but says the Borchgrevinck alternative was the original start of PMP.

In reply to petegunn:

Yes, lot's of places in Yorkshire with grade inflation. Another is Hetchell, e.g

Mitchell's Wall, S now HVS

Corbel, S now HVS

Wailing Wall, VS now HVS

Ripple Arete,  S now VS

Bell, HVS now E3

Crutch, VS now HVS

 Offwidth 18 Jun 2022
In reply to John Stainforth:

I've not done all those routes but Hetchel in my view has toughish grades for the latest YMC grit guides despite those upgrades.... maybe it's partly as I'm not used to the unusual rock type but elsewhere in the UK on soft sandstone I find grades OK or soft.

Post edited at 17:56
 sbc23 18 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

Fingernail was a two pitch Severe 4a, - in the yellow lancs guide and the brick.


 

 Martin Hore 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> The biggest anomaly I know in this regard is Hargreaves Original at Stanage.  It used to be Severe with no gear at all but now it's VS with several cams.

I lead it first in '77 before cams. I managed to place several hex's. They would have been straight-sided Chouinard hexentrics I think. They seemed pretty good to me at the time.

Led it again last week and laced it with cams. Still seemed VS, but I accept at the lower end. 

We shouldn't discount that lots of popular gritstone routes have become harder due to polish, often at the same time as becoming easier due to cams.

Martin

 Jamie Wakeham 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

Absolutely. HS is Severe... just a hard one. MVS is a Very Severe... but a mild one. If those are the grades you're operating at then the distinction is reasonably clear.

 gooberman-hill 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Philchris:

I know the original start fell down a while back, but when it was there, Terrier's Tooth (HS 4b) used to get VDiff IIRC...

Post edited at 08:05
 Martin Hore 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Absolutely. HS is Severe... just a hard one. MVS is a Very Severe... but a mild one. If those are the grades you're operating at then the distinction is reasonably clear.

I'd disagree re HS. My understanding has always been that HS and HVS are generally recognised as separate grades in their own right.  Other modifications, such as Mild Severe, Mild VS, VS+, etc are, as you say, generally just indicating bottom or top end of the grade concerned. Different guidebook areas have slightly different interpretations, but I think in general the above holds.

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

I think you are right but I always found that by considering a HVS to simply be a slightly tougher VS the psychological barriers became less intimidating.

 Jamie Wakeham 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

RLG Irving (History of British Mountaineering, 1955) writes that 'There were four categories: Easy, Moderate, Difficult, Exceptionally Severe.  Later these expanded into six: Easy, Moderate, Difficult, Very Difficult, Severe, Very Severe.' So it seems that the 'Very' grades were included right from an early stage, and the mild/hard modifiers introduced later.

You're right, though, in that HS is well on the way to being used as a 'whole' grade between Sev and VS, in the way that HVS is fully established as, and that HVD isn't, quite.  The mild modifiers are sorely underused outside of the Lakes.

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

To some extent the introduction of technical grades made this less neccessary IMO.

Their significance is dependent on the grade you climb.  For most of my climbing career I have operated at VS and above and could not for the life of me made the distinction between V.Diff and H.V.Diff and Severe. but the gap between VS and Extreme was always more noticeable.

 Jamie Wakeham 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

> Their significance is dependent on the grade you climb.  

This, to me, is the key.  I've lead a couple of HVS and seconded a few E1s, but I am fundamentally a VS-and-below punter.  To me I can distinguish between VD, HVD, Sev, quite easily - and, probably, MS too (although perhaps the difference between HVD and MS is more 'feel' thing than a difference in absolute difficulty).  And I see the difference between HS, MVS and VS very keenly, because that's more or less my limit these days.

Hard Diff, on the other hand, I'm not sure I believe in!  At that level there are just so many ways of doing the problem that trying to grade for one of them is a bit arbitrary; I think that's the same argument that makes it reasonable not to bother with tech grades below 4a, that you may well just not be climbing the same sequence.  At 4a and above there is, likely, a 'best' way of doing it - within the tolerances of height, strength, etc.

 Mark Kemball 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Howard J:

> No one seems to be able to agree where Poor Man's Peuterey (S 4a) starts. I've always used the V-chimney, probably originally following the Ron James guidebook. 

My oldest Tremadog guide (Snowdon South 1970) has in italics after the description of Poor  Man’s Peuterey and  Borchgrevinck 

“The best expedition at Severe standard in this area is to take the first three pitches of Borchgrevinck and the last two of Poor Man’s Peuterey.”

The 2010 CC Tremadog guide describes the above combination as Poor Man’s Peuterey and gives Borchrevinck the leftovers.

Post edited at 14:28
 wilkesley 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Many years ago I did this route with a friend. We had both climbed it several times before and the object was to see how many hexes we could place on the route. It needed a bit of fiddling but he did manage to place six decent hexes. 

 Offwidth 19 Jun 2022
In reply to gooberman-hill:

The old bold and technical start to Terrier's Tooth was properly graded HS for decades before it fell down. Again in early climbing terms it might have been fair at VDiff as early climbers were amazing on balance climbs in plimsoles. It will be shitty and bold for VS until it cleans up, so better climbed by traversing in.

1
 C Witter 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

I don't think MVS should be thought of simply as an expression of relative difficulty, but rather as a rich, and somewhat wry, commentary on the nature of the climb in question. For me, that 'M' encapsulates a vision, a tradition, an archive of long summers and lost youth; the recollection from a distance of joyful ease on rock; the benevolence of the fells; the simplicity of sharing a rope with another; the tenderness of the breeze at the top. How could you brutally amputate all this and reduce it to the bare: VS?

Post edited at 19:04
1
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Can you think of any mild hard severes?

 Michael Hood 19 Jun 2022
In reply to pancakeandchips:

In the FRCC 2003 Lakes Selected guide (lovely guide by the way, the last of the drawn topos, none of this picture rubbish making route finding too easy), there are:

  • MS+ two
  • S- four
  • S+ several
  • HS- one Right Ridge (HS 4b)
  • HS+ three
  • MVS- three
  • MVS+ several
  • VS- several

I may have missed some in my quick scan.

Go figure! Actually I don't have a problem with any of these, basically they're saying that they've only just scraped into that grade.

There's also a VD- and a D-.

Edit: to cathsullivan - thanks, I'd forgotten that.

Post edited at 21:24
 cathsullivan 19 Jun 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

The + and - thing was temporarily trialled as an alternative to graded lists in FRCC guides.


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