UKC

The topless thread was auto-archived due to size so I thought I start a new thread. In the other thread some people referred to problems they face in walls with people "acting like a bro" and the need to kill the "machismo environment". 

Going beyond clothing choices then, if we can (?), What do people mean by these phrases in a climbing wall setting? How much is active/passive? How much are you personally affected by it? 

In reply to Holdtickler:

I have read your post a few times, and conclude that I really do not have a clue what you are talking about within your second paragraph, sorry.

I'm not sure whether that say's something about me, or you, so I will leave it there.

I hope you find an answer to your questions.

In reply to Holdtickler:

An old lady climbing on her own isn't acting like a bro. Nor is anyone climbing by themselves exchanging the odd pleasantry with other wall users. Nor is anyone who's climbing with friends in a normal, quiet way.

A bunch of young lads climbing in a group monopolising a section of wall, loudly heckling each other are acting like bros. Throw in a bit of rude/sexist/homophobic banter audible to others and the bro-factor increases exponentially. Obviously the effect is amplified again if they take their shirts off in what might appear to an onlooker as showing off their ripped physiques.

But mainly it's being in a loud male group. If you fill those criteria, you're probably acting like a bro (even if you're shit - you get bunches of lads who are inexperienced but strong from the gym doing this on easy problems too).

I'll avoid any section of a bouldering centre that's monopolised by bros. I'd have thought all of this was pretty obvious to anyone who's been to bouldering walls in the past few decades. 

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I would have taken of it to mean being all "yo bro" and coming across as a bit transatlantic but not actually offensive. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bro%20Culture

In reply to Holdtickler:

This is perhaps not that focused a reply, but some thoughts: 

I was a scrawny, quiet kid who was crap at team sports, and the first time I went climbing was the first time I remember being good at something physical. That's a really common story among climbers, and I'm sure loads of people had a similar experience - geeky, never picked in football, etc., but then found this weird sport/hobby/whatever where you didn't need to be picked or be loud or cool.

What I struggled with, however, was that next to the topropes that we were climbing on was one of those old-school Bendcrete walls, and there was a group of blokes bouldering on it who were all shirtless, in good shape, and quite loud, and so I found them quite intimidating. I'd never felt comfortable taking my shirt off, never had muscles (nor could I imagine having them), never been part of such a loud, boisterous group. As a result, and in spite of the fact that I really enjoyed climbing, I concluded that it wasn't for me because I didn't see myself as like those guys, and so never pestered my parents to take me climbing again. It took me years to go back to it, and even then I had this persistent idea that it couldn't possibly be for me that took a long time to shake off.

That is something that absolutely not be anyone else's problem - my insecurities were (and are) my responsibility, my issue to deal with. They’re something that I've worked on, and I abhor the idea that society should be moulded so as to never challenge or offend me. However, I've now been climbing for over a decade and have lost count of the number of people who have described that same feeling, of seeing a group of guys with their shirts off and feeling unwelcome or uncomfortable as a result. It’s probably not that interesting to get into gender, age, sexuality, and so on, but suffice to say that I’ve heard it from a pretty wide cross-section of climbers with regard to these categories.

In all of these cases the problem hasn’t been anyone being overtly macho or dickish; the issue has been that the shirtlessness has contributed to an atmosphere that doesn’t feel welcoming, has made someone feel that they shouldn’t be there. I would guess that in 99% of cases ‘peacocking’ and consciously ‘acting like a bro’ doesn’t come into the equation, and people genuinely are just trying to be less hot, but to my mind that doesn’t really matter if the end result is that it makes people uncomfortable. To me, knowing how I felt the first time I went climbing, I don’t think it’s that much of a hardship to keep my shirt on if it helps to make sure that no one feels like I felt that first time I climbed.

In reply to subtle:

Too subtle for you?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I’m kinda with Holdtickler - if the actual problem is loud, inconsiderate, sexist homophobes then I’m not convinced a dress code is an effective solution.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

It's interesting, those 2 definitions in your link are significantly different from one another. The first could just describe a bunch people enjoying a social hobby behaving perfectly naturally without any negative connotations at all. The second definition is actively antisocial behaviour because it involves degrading women which is clearly not something we want in our hobby.

It seems like one could be guilty of "bro behaviour" by association then just by being in a group of men. 

In reply to Stuart Williams:

The "problem" is that the wall management have concluded that they get more punters in if they ask blokes to keep their shirts on. We can argue the sociological whys and wherefores until the cows come home, but if topless climbing brought the crowds flocking, walls would (presumably) encourage it.

In reply to Stuart Williams:

I don't think anyone believes it is an effective solution, but it's one easy way as a wall manager you could take the edge off the atmosphere created by that type of male group. You can't influence what they say, how loud they they say it, etc, (except by telling them off once they've done it). It's a more reasonable attempt at keeping the wall welcoming than "no groups of more than 4 men aged 16-35" or whatever. 

I agree it doesn't target the problem effectively nor does it have much impact, but if the wall manager objects to bro's, then what tools have they got (pun intended)?

In reply to Holdtickler:

In the context we're discussing here, "bro" was used as a pejorative. We can be pretty sure what was meant was "boys being dicks" in more or less the way I describe. 

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Very, very well put

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Ironically, a group of topless ripped lads like that is likely to draw the eyes of gay guys, so likely to achieve the opposite of the homophobic banter.

I don't recall having heard sexist or homophobic banter at a wall before, though, and if that is heard it should really be "called out".  On the other hand I don't see a great problem with a bit of swearing (e.g. "f***" if you fall off)  *if there are no kids about* - on a Saturday morning with the kids' clubs in full swing that's probably inappropriate too.

In reply to Holdtickler:

Nothing to add, but I like that the weedy, gentle guy with round specs turns out to be bouldering 7C. Go him.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

What’s wrong with telling them off? If people are being loudly sexist and homophobic or otherwise causing problems I’d rather the manager said “we don’t tolerate that here, stop it or leave” than “would you mind putting a shirt on?” 

In reply to Stuart Williams:

Nothing. But you want a wall where noone's acting like a dick, not a wall where people are acting like dicks, other customers are complaining about them, and staff have to confront them. That's not the vibe most managers are seeking to achieve. 

In reply to Holdtickler:

I've not spent much time in walls in bigger cities, so may have been a bit insulated in general. Walls have normally seemed to me to be relatively diverse (mostly white, but fairly broad demographics) and relatively friendly and welcoming. But, a pet dislike is groups of guys sitting on the mats around a certain section of wall (usually a steep bit) completely blocking it off, talking really loudly, often in a boastful way, and completely ignoring their impact on others. I find it hard to approach that bit of the wall as a guy... but can imagine it being much worse as a woman trying to climb with an audience watching my movements and gazing at my body. Add into that loud boasts and beta spraying... and it can get a bit much, even if the atmosphere is fairly jovial.

Don't want to act like a bro? Try not to dominate the space and be aware of how your scrutiny and/or comments on others may not be welcome. The social dynamics at work may be subtle, but the solution is obvious.

On top of that, my local bouldering wall, Freeklime in Huddersfield, run LGBTQ an evening every week, women-specific events and have very welcoming staff with a good gender balance. This all helps create a wall with a very welcoming feel, whereas some walls don't do these things and have truculent male-only staff.

One thing I have less experience of, but which I think is a growing phenomenon, is that climbing gyms are becoming a place for hookups, dates, flirting, etc. Not a bad thing, but given how toxic our sexual culture is, I wouldn't be surprised if some elements of problematic behaviour common to, say, night clubs, are becoming evident - e.g. invading people's space, aggressive flirtation.

I would add that indoor climbing is without a doubt the most diverse and inclusive area of UK climbing in my experience, no doubt because a) climbing walls are in urban areas and b) because the barriers to participation are much lower than trad or even outdoor sport climbing.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Agreed, I just don’t think that shirts will stop anyone acting like a dick.

In reply to Holdtickler:

Sightly off topic, but several years ago when I worked at a wall we had a mother complaining about men changing in public  infront of her kids, rather than using the changing rooms. Totally get her point that where facilities are available it's not really appropriate to strip to your underwear in public.

However she then went on to tell us that we have a duty of care regarding child protection.....

Now I would argue that is far safer for her daughter to briefly encounter a man in his pants (whilst accompanied by mummy and other members of the public), than for her son to potentially encounter a totally naked man showering in the changing rooms when unchaperoned whilst visiting the toilet.

In reply to C Witter:

What night is "bro night"?

We bros need a safe space where we can feel comfortable to talk shit and flex our pecks.

In reply to Jenny C:

I'm actually very surprised that more places (not just walls, but any places where you get a lot of kids) don't go for either "everyone together" changing village type arrangements with proper cubicle doors (as most pools do now) or 4 facilities i.e. ladies, gents, girls and boys, so obvious is that issue (and the potential for allegations surrounding it).

In reply to Neil Williams:

Also we increasingly need to consider the transgender community. I have no issues with sharing toilets but feel a little awkward undressing infront of someone who is still physically a man, and I suspect most individuals in transition would prefer to keep their bodies private.

Personally I'm not a fan of cubicles, but they do fix an awful lot of problems.

In reply to Jenny C:

As most people *don't* change at walls (far more common to arrive ready and have a shower at home), the optimum is probably maybe 4 or so individual floor to ceiling cubicles big enough to change in that contain a toilet and a sink, plus one similar cubicle with a shower, plus a disabled (ideally Changing Places compliant) one.

I guess there's limits to what they can do in a leased premises, though.

In reply to JLS:

Given your response, I suspect for you that every night is bro night...

In reply to Neil Williams:

Try choosing a wall at 6pm midweek, I think you'll find most people want to change out if work clothes before climbing - maybe not underwear, but certainty outerwear.

(Oh sorry, I forgot that 'everyone' now works from home - except retail, teachers, NHS construction....)

In reply to Jon Stewart:

So we've created a phrase to describe (and maybe demonise?) a group of people from a particular gender, age and physique that might contain members displaying a behaviour which we don't like. We could remove all of that other discriminating stuff and just simply describe the unwanted behaviours then on their own couldn't we?

Of course, I've seen groups showing some of the behaviours you described. I also have never witnessed any rude/sexist/homophobic behaviour in a wall towards anyone though but I'm not suggesting it doesn't go on.

In all walks of life people behave differently when they are part of a group. I think it is maybe a little unreasonable not to expect a group of friends to be louder, more completive, more joking and banter. If I see a group like this, If I'm honest, my initial reaction is probably more one of jealously because I'm not part of the fun. Wouldn't it be great to be young again and be part of an enthusiastic group that pushed each other to improve while having a good laugh? Beyond that initial reaction though, I hold no bitter resentment and don't feel excluded or unwelcome. I generally avoid crowds but do get drawn in by the occasional fun, like working problems as a group and sharing beta, the the odd crazy dyno comp, all adds to the evenings entertainment.

To me it's like choosing a table in a restaurant or a spot on the beach. Different groups are going to have different ideas about how they want to use the space at different times, but there is no right/wrong. How compatible the groups are just comes down to a combination of self-awareness and tolerance on both sides.

In reply to Holdtickler:

This is true, but what I think annoys me more than anything is people not considering others.  Say for example you turn up to the beach with young children, you wouldn't pick a spot next to a group of lads getting on the lagers.

However equally, if you were one of the group of lads, crate of beers on your shoulder, you wouldn't choose to go sit next to a family with young children.

There is no right or wrong, but doing what the hell you like and not taking into account how your actions affect others is wrong.

To suggest that nobody should have to moderate their behaviour to take into account the wishes of other people around them isn’t a world I wish to live in.

Strange, 'cos I always thought "behaving like a bro" was kinda racist - possibly on my part by associating "bro" with ... (insert the correct term / stereotype here, as I cant keep up with whats allowed, even though descriptions should be OK).... 

Lets face it, in public - and in private, males in groups can at times be a bit much. When in that group it can be great fun. So stop having fun!

Women are a minority at climbing walls, so the majority of issue will lay with the males by default.

Theres no winner in this contest. Tick tack toe. If you want to win, don't play the games. Just climb harder and smile.

In reply to Jenny C:

When I worked in an office (at home now) and I was doing a sport of some kind after work I'd generally change at work (where you tend to mostly find individual unisex cubicles, at least in offices), as travelling in sportswear is generally more comfortable than in a stuffy suit and tie.  The number of people you see dressed for sport on the Tube would seem to confirm that being a very popular choice.

In reply to Iamgregp:

I was actually just about to include very similar beach examples myself (but my post was already too long ). It does seem to be human nature that, the larger group people are in, the less considerate they tend to be towards others. There's probably deep rooted evolutionary reasons for that I guess, strength in numbers...

I'm not for one second suggesting nobody should ever have to moderate their behaviour, that is often the answer, just that sometimes the peaceful balance can also be found be shifting levels of tolerance too and accepting certain inevitabilities of human behaviour.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Excellent response. One way to respond is by quietly doing the problem in good style. Especially if a woman does it.

That said, I don’t know how much of an issue this really is. Probably depends on the wall. It’s not unusual to have a few people go round in a group but often these groups are mixed, supportive and not particularly noisy. Also, one person’s hard core training session is another person’s display of masculine bro culture. So yes it’s an issue at times but not sure how prevalent it really is.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I would agree to this, but would also add that it's possibly unintentional on some occasions. I can empathise with Droyd's take on things below as it fairly accurately describes me but I still accidently found myself leading a group at a wall where I would describe they were acting like 'bros'. Actually I wouldn't because I've never used that term before but it seems fitting.

I really enjoy teaching people how to climb, so found a few people at work that had climbing experience and took the department to a climbing wall (so most had no experience).

Big mistake.

They acted like children. They were clearly excited to be there and wanted to out do each-other (quite a few gym goers) but it wasn't a great atmosphere. Two decided to race up auto-belays and decided to start kicking each other on the way down. Heckling each-other. I think they treated it like being at the pub. 

Wasn't enjoyable for me as I had to tell people off all the time which isn't my nature.

I've since been very selective about who I will introduce to climbing and only in small manageable groups. Lesson learnt. 

So if you see unruly groups, it could be somebody making the same mistake I did.

In reply to Holdtickler:

Yes agreed, with you on all of that!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Ahhh... but that's how it starts!

Thin end of the wedge you know. Next thing she'll be chugging energy drinks like Tenzing (they sell "push" this at many gyms!), from there it is only a short slippery slope before she experiments with RedBull and so an inevitable decline of addiction to Buckfast. Before long she'll be ripping her shirt off to show her ripped physique and heckling and intimidating others like an über-bro

Yes, this is the end result. And people dabbling with Tenzing is how it all starts. Just sickening. The sheer moral turpitude of some of these places is an outrage.

I wrote that - thanks for asking; def good to discuss this stuff. 

It was admittedly a partial dig at the American bro types I just find a bit irritating and hard to relate to, but ultimately aren't harmful (probably influenced by writing this from Canada),  but more meant to cover the sort of loud, obnoxious, often young male behaviour that dominates the space - can include the groups making sexist jokes but also just the kind that stop you being able to get on your problem because they're all projecting a hard problem that also crosses something others might want to climb; climbing over your routes so you end up having to stop your climb; their behaviour taking over the tone of the room, etc. Def also a behaviour outdoors and probably involves bad music. 

Slightly different to machismo in climbing but that's really what I meant and probably a better word than 'bro'. 

Really hard to exactly articulate this dynamic (but definitely is a thing! You can definitely feel a wall that seems to value that kind - it stretches as far as setting for lanky males) so thanks for asking. 

In reply to montyjohn:

I wrote quite a long reply to the last post in that other thread this morning and then couldn't post it because it had auto-archived.  (No bad thing possibly.)  This is something that was in it though:

I agree but I don't think you go far enough - it's almost certainly unintentional just about all the time.

The only people who would deliberately want to intimidate others are yer actual bullies, and at most gyms (let alone climbing walls) they're really quite rare.  And best dealt with by the management by being asked to leave and not come back because those are customers that a gym that wants a pleasant and inclusive 'vibe' is just better off without.

The group of pals you describe stressing you out that time are a fairly extreme example of a much more likely scenario - perfectly decent people getting caught up in what they're doing, having a good time but also being a bit thoughtless and not particularly aware of the effect they're having on people around them.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

First time I have seen that phrase used outside of the little form you used to complete to enter the US.

In reply to Queen of the Traverse:

I have seen groups like that and they step aside if you walk up to a problem that clashes with theirs, generally.

Is this partly perception, like "those kids outside the shop are definitely going to nick my wallet"?  Or "I am safer crossing a 70mph dual carriageway on the level than using the underpass, because there be dragons"?

In reply to Holdtickler:

Whilst bro's are a pain the arse, often dominating the reset bit of the walls, this clique can often include lots of women too!

Male tops off clearly adds to the intimidation factor but I would hate to for climbing walls to become a totally sterile, 100% child friendly environment. I like being able to swear when I fall off something or lose some skin.

Besides, most of these bros are fairly clueless middle class young males, hardly gonna jump you while you que for ya decaff oat milk flat white and vegan tacos are they?

In reply to Forest Dump:

Ah so women can be bro's too, this is getting interesting! 

In reply to Holdtickler:

For sure, its the 21st century 

In reply to Forest Dump:

I really enjoyed this sentence - I feel you have strong combat sport energy.

In reply to JLS:

By the by, I think it's telling that such an unfunny joke somehow ended up with so many likes. It reveals the extent to which UKC forums are almost entirely populated by white men with a sense of grievance just because it's not always all about them. Thanks to JLS for providing the gammon-bait.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

 

Isn’t the correct approach, at least for beginner bros, to wait until they are muscly struggling on some V2, then to walk through the group, say “excuse me, you don’t mind if I just…” before styling the problem with a French blow midway up, down climbing it in control, and finally apologising about the time-consuming down climbing thing, but it is forced upon you by virtue of having a bad back and disliking jumping off? 

In reply to Neil Williams:

Maybe a little, and obviously sure not all the same - but it's frustrating if they don't think about it. It can be very intimidating to interrupt those groups, and can feel like you only get one go of their problem and then need to get out of their way. I feel like I spend a lot of the time at walls thinking about whether I'm in someone's way and it's frustrating when others don't, esp the more experienced or harder climbers. 

In reply to Queen of the Traverse:
I'm not sure if the group hogging thing is also more of a perceived issue rather than an actual one in most cases to be honest as I've always been made to feel welcome whenever I've asked to cut in and take a turn, based on my experience anyway. From that point on I'll just take my turn (loosely, because who keeps track right?) as if I was part of the group and before you know if you've got a bunch of lovely strangers cheering you on. A "hogging" group might be just a bunch of people taking turns in their eyes.

Can you actually technically even hog something if you are a group of individuals? Surely the larger the group the more they are actually sharing in a funny roundabout sort of way, right?  

If a group is so big that I'm not going to get as frequent goes as I'd like, I'll accept that the problem is occupied by that wild gang of granny bro's and come back to it later.

In reply to deepsoup:

This sums it up perfectly.

I re-read my post, and whilst I describe their behaviour accurately, I think I gave them a disservice in that they come across as a bunch of yobs, but they are in fact a decent group of lads. Just very excitable. 

In reply to seankenny:

I hope you don’t actually go out of your way to humiliate climbers who aren’t as good as you.

I very much remember feeling intimidated by better climbers when I started out, as a few others have described, so would now go out of my way not to cruise up someone’s project while they’re trying it.

In reply to Holdtickler:

I agree with this. I've found myself getting intimidated getting on a problem in front of a gang of bros at the wall but they probably have no idea and no intention that their behaviour would have this effect. It's more a reflection of my own insecurities around not wanting to be seen failing on a problem, which is counterproductive to a training mindset - something Dave Macleod talks about at length in 9 out of 10 Climbers. Chances are, they either won't pay attention or will be encouraging. And if they're judgemental about someone trying hard and failing then they're probably a bunch of c***s and who cares what they think anyway?

I probably agonise more when I'm warming up at the wall and want to do a problem people are working. I end up feeling guilty about whizzing up it and then downclimbing. I know I'm not doing it to show off or make a point but I worry that people might think I'm being an arse!

ETA - hang on, if I warm up on someone's project, shirt off and laces untied, am I a middle aged woman bro?

In reply to Holdtickler:

On the hogging thing, I find kids teams more annoying for taking over bits of walls than bros, and harder to swap tries with, but maybe that's just for me as a youngish male climber who's often tops off...

In reply to Holdtickler:

I think a large part of this comes down to confidence.

Any half-decent, semi-regular wall goer likely does have the confidence to just ask if they can have a quick go on a route being sessioned by a group - and I agree, 9/10 you end up as part of the group sessioning it.

The potential issue is a newbie to climbing, or someone who is generally less confident due to whatever reason - would see this as intimidating, but crucially won't have the confidence to have a go anyway and discover the majority of climbers, even if they've not got a top on, are lovely people.

The REALLY cool thing I've found about climbers though, is in a lot of these groups , one of the group will usually spot someone looking on wistfully and ask them if they want to jump on.

In reply to C Witter:

That's bollocks. Some of my best friends are white men. I choose not to judge them based on the colour of their skin but as individuals. I wouldn't have them "almost entirely" tarred with the same brush.

My experience of climb is that it's pretty inclusive and accepting of all sorts of people...who find it.

Yeah, there is a case to be made for "ladies night, etc." to help people find climbing but these group nights are not required to protect individuals who identify as a member of a minority group from mildly annoying but harmless "bros".

In reply to Holdtickler:

Short version: “don’t be a dick”

Longer: be friendly, be inclusive, be chatty, be quiet and focused, be gender neutral, be encouraging. People are better than you, people are worse than you. I appreciate my local wall showing a pride flag, women’s nights, heck I’m even eligible for the old people’s special. 

I’ve pierced bro bubbles and been drawn into a shared session, they’ve generally been ok. But maybe those people on the outside are now thinking “look at that bro bubble, eugh”. I can always throw in a spectacular fail when needed 😁

In reply to C Witter:

Interestingly, I notice from your reply here, that we seem to be "mostly" on the same page.

In reply to steveriley:

Absolutely, that advice is golden for so many sports and activities, if only that's all that was needed...

Unfortunately the minority of people who qualify as being a dick are the ones who don't understand that simple rule and why it has to be broken down into more specific lists of do's and don'ts

In reply to steveriley:

Spot on! A friend told me about a makerspace that had adopted this single rule. I guess its just another version of "live and let live". 

In reply to Holdtickler:

I once was called out for using the word "dick" by a woman. I couldn't resist restating and substituting with the word "fanny". In that case I think I was the dick.

In reply to Holdtickler:

Poor bros being discriminated against. My heart bleeds! 

The behaviour I was talking about isn't towards anyone, it's banter. You might not notice if it doesn't grate on you the way it does on others. It's not intentionally nasty, it's just dickish. 

You asked what "acting like a bro" was. I've tried to explain. I don't think anyone's saying wall bros are terrible people, just that they can be annoying, like a big table of loud, pissed work colleagues in a restaurant. They've got every right to be there, and they'd have to get really rowdy before it would be reasonable to tell them to pipe down and stop being dicks. You just tune it out, don't you?

In reply to C Witter:

What absolute nonsense. They "liked" it because they have a sense of humour and found it amusing in the context. And I am sure most of them would call out the very few white men with a sense of grievance who occasionally pop up on here. UKC is almost entirely populated by decent people as far as I can see.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, I think while there's the odd person on here who will say "LGBT night/club/etc? Why can't I have a straight night/club/etc - it's discrimination!" and they think they're making a worthwhile point, I don't think that was the tone of JLS's post at all.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I know JLS and I am absolutely certain it wasn't.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hey Bro,

Are you coming to the UKip fundraiser disco this weekend?

Will you be stripping off naked again like last week? 

J

In reply to Robert Durran:

Absolutely.

The joke seems to have gone over some peoples head somewhat!  

In reply to JLS:

Yo Bro,

Afraid I'm back on Erraid with the bros. Sick sends. About to hit the beach and get naked.

Have a good one. Give my best regards to Nige and the rest of the bros.

Your bro, Robert.

In reply to Holdtickler:

I think that’s right in most cases and it’s a question of perception and people being too polite to ask to join in. In fact most of the time you don’t even need to ask, you just slot in between other people’s goes as there will be natural gaps. That said, people could be more friendly if they see someone hanging around  by asking if they’re waiting to have a go. 

Whether you’re intimidated, inspired, envious or something else depends on your approach and also on how that person is behaving. If they’re just climbing and not actively showing off, I can’t see an issue. My project is someone else’s warm up (been there and was inspired / impressed and told the guy as much). My warm up is someone else’s project and they might pick up some useful beta from me but at the end of the day it’s just my warm up and it’s not reasonable for me to skip some of the problems in my warm up circuit just because someone is projecting those problems (unless it’s busy and there isn’t an obvious gap).

In reply to climbingpixie:

If you aren’t failing at the bouldering wall, you aren’t trying hard enough, so I’d say failing is a good thing and most reasonably experienced climbers would recognise that you’re trying hard which is what actually counts (not that there’s anything wrong with not trying hard).

In reply to Holdtickler:

Not entirely serious, but is there a difference between acting like a bro and acting as a bro?

Are there people who aren’t bros but are trying to act like bros? Bro wannabes, if you like. Probably further subdivided into bro wannabes who actually want to be bros and people who are just having a laugh at their own expense?

And then you have people who are actual bros?

Perhaps also bros who used to be actual bros, grew out of it but are now retro-broing for old times’ sake? Again, divided into those who are serious about it and those who are not.

This is before we get into the thorny question of different types of actual bros. Suffice to say that a few varieties exist. 

In reply to Misha:

We’ll have to disagree there. I think it’s entirely reasonable to occasionally alter your behaviour for the sake of others. I’m not saying I’d never hop on something that someone is projecting, and as you say it’s often cool to see someone do your project.

But, there are occasionally times when warming up on someone’s project spoils their fun and they don’t then try it again, regardless of your intentions. If I think this might be the case (and I like to think I can roughly judge this by which groups are already looking a bit sheepish/unsure of themselves) then I’ll skip that problem and maybe circle back to it in a few minutes. It’s no skin off my nose to occasionally alter my warm up slightly to give self-conscious beginners a bit of space.

I did overstate my case a bit before. Most of the time I’d just crack on and climb, and tbf often ask if I can jump the queue if I know I’ll quickly flash something that a group is working, but sometimes that doesn’t feel like the right thing to do to me.

In reply to Misha:

Sounds like good topic for a sociology undergraduate finals dissertation

In reply to Robert Durran:

Just spent 15 mins looking into Erraid, prompted by that photo.

Could well end up going next year..... which wouldn't have happened if someone hadn't started a 'bro' thread!

In reply to Stuart Williams:

I think generally you can tell the difference between someone who’s just warming up, or saw people trying something and thought it looked fun, vs someone being a dick. Funnily enough the latter tends to happen much more often when I’m climbing in a group of women rather than with my mixed climbing club…

In reply to Stuart Williams:

“I think it’s entirely reasonable to occasionally alter your behaviour for the sake of others.”

Totally agree with this, but at the same time acknowledging that this works both ways for all concerned.

In reply to Misha:

Absolutely. Prompted by this thread, me and my bro have been trying to out-bro each other at the campsite since yesterday evening. Way over the top bro stuff. Probably sufficient to get us locked up if we actually were bros.

In reply to Indignancy:

Meh, I don't think someone has to be being a dick for someone else to feel self-conscious. I certainly remember being a timid beginner who was self-conscious around better climbers who weren't actually being dicks, others on these threads have described similar, and I've definitely witnessed timid newbies hanging back/apologising for being in the way/walking away from something they were trying even though no-one is doing anything actually dickish.

If a totally inconsequential change to my warm up might possibly mean someone else has a slightly better evening then I'm gonna keep doing that; it costs me nothing. I'm not saying that anyone else is a dick for not doing the same, just that it's what I choose to do as one tiny thing that I hope helps keep the atmosphere welcoming. 

The people I'm talking about giving a little extra space to aren't "bros" monopolising a wall section though, just self-conscious beginners who are perhaps looking a bit overwhelmed in a busy wall. So I guess it's a little tangential to the main topic of this thread.

In reply to Holdtickler:

I like to walk up to groups of bantering, topless lads and ask if they would mind if I have a go on the problem, and then hopefully flash it (with my top on of course).

Joking aside, yes a group of topless lads can be off-putting. I don't think groups like that realise that the image they present can make some people uncomfortable. I'm sure there are no active intentions to do so. I find that they are very accommodating when you ask for a go. We're all human after all.

In reply to Droyd:

I was thinking about this reply and others in a similar vein, as years ago when I first started climbing I encountered a few bad attitudes at a wall down South. Enough for me to feel like 'do a significant proportion of climbers feel they need to be dicks to newbies?' I was an adult and no shrinking violet, just bemused and a bit cheesed off at folk doing things like barging past me on a traverse and so on. I started a thread here on UKC that became a bit of an epic, but more importantly led me to some awesome and long-lasting friendships. 

It feels to me that regardless of someone's appearance, behaviour is more important. I think anyone wanting to help make a climbing wall feel more welcoming to a beginner, could just do exactly that - as opposed to being too concerned about how they look. A kind word of encouragement, a quick compliment, maybe just a smile and thumbs up.

A kind soul that wants to be seen, will be seen.

In reply to Queen of the Traverse:

Working at a wall and having used them for many years, it's good etiquette to converse with people who are trying the same problem as yourself. If I want to climb a problem already in use, I ask the people on it if that is ok? It's just good manners and generally starts a conversation that will bring a group down to your level of chilledness. I am particularly talking about the 10% of our membership I don't know, for what it's worth, so it's not as though these people will have a heightened reason to respect me as a member would and therefore observe good behaviour (as in respecting centre rules, other users etc).

My experience says that 99% of people will always be cool if you let them. It's about creating the right space/environment and not overthinking things. If your ""climbing"" wall is good, people will want to climb and be inspired to improve. The rest will fall into place. Trying to be everything for all people is perhaps slightly arrogant and tends to dilute the USP's a wall has in effect already. It's also a non communicative way of going about things, whereas having interested dialogue with your members is how a wall should be, i.e. highly communicative. It yields respect if it's genuine. The trick is getting the right staff, which is much easier said than done. It's taken us 2 1/2 years to achieve that!

The above said, tops are removed in our centre but it doesn't stop teenage girls, shy bespectacled 20 something yoofs or 60 year old grandmothers entering the fray and having exactly the time they hoped for. Our core membership is comprised of all denominations and they all get along just fine.

In reply to Stuart Williams:

What if you had gone to the gym to do say, all the problems in two circuits, 40-50 problems. If there is a group anywhere in the gym, if one of your problems isn't in front of them it will be in close proximity or even the one they are trying. You wouldn't sack off your plans or expect someone else to because of what someone may or may not feel, surely?

Or put another way, you wouldn't expect someone to alter their pre made plans because you are in the gym?

Call out bad behaviour - but where CAN Bro's be Bro's these days?

https://www.thecalmzone.net/the-ons-figures-on-suicide-rates-for-2020-a-mes...

In reply to Fishmate:

Well that bears little resemblance to the situation I was talking about and like any normal human I don’t live my life by rigid rules but think and behave flexibly according to the situation. I would still take reasonable steps to avoid knowingly spoiling anyone else’s session though, assuming they were also behaving reasonably. I’m not sure you’ve understood what I meant - I tried to clarify in later posts.

Although I’m not sure what is so weird about occasionally changing your planned behaviour based on what others might be feeling. The word often applied to someone who never does that is “psychopath”.

In reply to Holdtickler:

Let's name names here..

Last night at TCA Maryhill Glasgow. There were folk there that need to take a long hard look at themselves is all I'd say.

In reply to Fishmate:

This was exactly the point I was going to make. Sometimes you plan to do 60 V0-V3 problems or whatever at the wall so you end up climbing things whilst groups are trying them because it’s unavoidable. What are you supposed to do, waste your limited holiday time because you couldn’t train properly beforehand because it might have offended someone? How many climbers are there in the world who don’t have people warm up on their projects? A few hundred at most! For the rest of us it’s part of life. 

In reply to Stuart Williams:

It’s great to be conscious of others but it’s not always easy to judge. Besides, if the wall is fairly busy and you’re short of time and warming up or doing a volume session, it’s perfectly reasonable to jump on the next problem which is free. Indeed it might not be feasible to skip something just because a beginner is there, as there might not be anything else free nearby at that point. Whereas if the wall is not busy and / or you have lots of time, it’s easy enough to avoid getting on the same section of wall as someone else.

So I think there’s a limit to how far it’s reasonable to go out of your way to accommodate other wall users and they limit will vary depending on the circumstances. Obviously I wouldn’t actively get in someone’s way or seek to annoy anyone but I’m not necessarily going to go out of my way to accommodate others.

In reply to seankenny:

That’s very different to deliberately setting out to humiliate beginners, which was your suggestion that I was replying to.

In reply to Misha:

I’m not disagreeing with any of that. It feels like you are interpreting what I’ve written as something far more extreme and rigid than it actually is. 

In reply to Holdtickler:

Machismo environment??? 

Pull the other one. It's just adult soft play. 

In reply to robate:

Not ladies night again? You don’t want to mess with some of those Maryhill lassies…

In reply to bouldery bits:

Or, at least, it should be

In reply to Stuart Williams:

All I took from your reply was that you are a little humourless. Also that you fail to see the difference between the meek and mild and the “essence of bro”. In fact essence of bro can be so concentrated that they don’t even realIse they’ve been humiliated. 

In reply to seankenny:

Ok now I've just got this image of an evil broverlord concentrating down "essence of bro" in his secret underground lab. Which raises the question, did bro evolve naturally or did it escape from a lab?

In reply to Holdtickler:

Actually essence of bro can be made by the male human body but has of course now been synthesised by chembros.

In reply to seankenny:

Lynx?

I guess I forgot the 3rd option regarding the brorigin, maybe it was all just made up all along...?  

In reply to Misha:

I’m with you on this. Maybe it’s a London thing, but I’d never dream of not trying a problem just because a bunch of other people are. 
 

Just join in, be nice, wait your turn and have a go. If they’re begginers and don’t want the beta, they could always look the other way for a moment? Have done the same meself many times…

In reply to Neil Williams:

One should always be on the lookout for moral turpitude, particularly the gross kind... 

In reply to Fishmate:

This isn't just an issue for beginners though. I have also been using walls for years. Yes sometimes you can definitely just walk up, but a bit of awareness of people around you - either for hogging a problem, or climbing in someone's space (or sometimes standing in it when they're belaying, which I've seen a bit too often) goes a long way. 

In reply to Holdtickler:

As long as people aren't being dangerous, and aren't insulting anyone or anything like that, I don't really care what they're doing. 

The one exception in my mind was the fella I saw top roping a 6b at my gym, who fell off, screamed and yelled for 5 solid seconds, and then pounded his hands on the wall 3-4 times. 

Most mental shit I've ever seen. You'd have think he'd just dropped the onsight of Silence on the last move or something..

Don't be that guy. 

Other than that, you do you. 

In reply to Iamgregp:

I don't have this issue as I only climb problems so hard that no one else is on them. 

:P

(The above is in no way based in fact of any kind)

In reply to GripsterMoustache:

Whilst the guys reaction was a little extreme, I dont see why the grade of the route that he was climbing is relevant. After all, everyone’s struggle is the same, regardless of level, and for this guy that was his Silence. 

If you think you’d have been more accommodating of his frustrations if he was climbing something harder then I think we have very different philosophies towards climbing. For me I get the same buzz, or more if anything, from seeing a beginner achieve something relatively modest like their 6a, as I do seeing an elite climber send a hard route.

In reply to Iamgregp:

well said!

In reply to Iamgregp:

This gets banded about a lot, and it's true all other things being equal... but often all other things are not equal, and people use grade as a bit of a proxy for those other things (it's not a perfect proxy, but at a broad level, e.g. 6a vs 9a, is likely to be a reasonable one). E.g. if someone has spent 10 years climbing and training lots and does their first 8a, that's basically the same experience as the other more talented person who does the same and then does their first 9a. But a beginner climbing their first 6a isn't having the same experience/struggle as Ondra climbing 9c - the beginner hasn't built their entire life around climbing, spent 000s of hours climbing, training, perfecting their art, dreaming about these routes, made multiple trips to try that project etc... So while you might like that buzz more (it's perhaps something with more pure excitement and somehow less tinged with relief, ego, etc.) I don't buy in that context that "the struggle is the same" and it is "his Silence". Given the comparison between binning a route indoors (there is almost unlimited opportunity to try other ones) to dropping an onsight at a level where there are a very limited number of routes in the world to try, I would struggle to see how the latter would not be considered justifiably more annoying/frustrating/disappointing/anger-inducing! 

In reply to Iamgregp:

 Did you send the 6b in the end then? 

In reply to Iamgregp:

I'd have thought he was a tw@ regardless, but the grade and form of climbing did make a difference in the extent to which I thought he was a tw@, not going to lie. 

Vincent van Gogh cutting off his ear was weird, right? But we kinda let it slide because he was an incredible artist. 

Imagine how we'd view him if he was doing paint by numbers..

Anyways, if you'd seen this guys outburst there is zero (and I mean zero) chance you would not have thought him ridiculous. Even his belayer (potentially wife) looked like she wanted to crawl into a ball and die..

In reply to GripsterMoustache:

"Weird"?  "Let it slide"?  What are you on about?

Vincent van Gogh is pretty much the archetypal 'tortured artist'.  He's almost as famous for having suffered from terrible mental illness as he is for his art - psychotic episodes, delusions and frequent bouts of severe depression that ultimately led to him fatally shooting himself at the age of 37.

In reply to abarro81:

Yeah I did think about this,  you’re of course correct, and it’s a fair point to make.

However we all experience emotions, sometimes the depth of those emotions overwhelm us, and to say to someone that they shouldn’t be as emotionally invested as they are in something they are climbing because they’re not very good isn’t position I’m ever going to take.

Would you tell a friend that they shouldn’t be as deeply in love with their partner as they are because they’re of only average attractiveness and there plenty more like them?

One of the things I love about climbing is how people of different levels and abilities can still share the same interest and have a great deal of common ground. When you start making distinctions about how people of  different levels are allowed to behave it puts up barriers that nobody needs.

In reply to GripsterMoustache:

Fair enough, and you’re absolutely right. I probably would have thought he was a bit of a kn0b!  

But then I’d have also thought he was an equal grade of kn0b were he climbing a less amenable grade. 

Maybe I should have saidEveryone’s kn0bbishness is equal, regardless of level (or something like that anyway)?!

In reply to deepsoup:

Hey siri, what is jest? 

In reply to robate:

TCA Glasgow is ridiculous. Newsroom is the worst. Definitely groups there with a sense of entitlement to the space over others and largely all male and taps off. 
taps aff lads lounging in the cave at maryhill is a classic. 
Recently the most hideous thing is the guys turning up to go taps aff on Wednesday night at propstore which happens to be ladies night. Have heard from my girlfriend and from a staff member this is a regular thing. 
For the record I’m in pretty decent shape, love to push myself on a session and sweat excessively yet have never gone taps aff at the wall as it’s just unnecessary and inconsiderate.

In reply to GripsterMoustache:

As well as the more obvious flaw in this analogy that deepsoup points out, you're also looking at van Gogh's life through the lens of history as a dispassionate observer. I'd wager that, at the time, some of his acquaintances would have been remarkably concerned about him, some of society probably would have thought he was utterly mental...I'd be surprised if anyone would have thought "that's a bit weird, but ah it's all good because he's a dab hand with a paintbrush"*.

The difference between van Gogh and the painting-by-numbers man is that you've heard of van Gogh because he was a dab hand with a paintbrush. The painting-by-numbers man who went off the deep end and lopped his ear off isn't even an unfortunate footnote in history.

* though I say that with a modern appreciation of mental health.

In reply to tehmarks:

You might have missed the post above - when I thought StoneG had just said something a bit thoughtless and stupid, it turns out I was the one being dim and it was actually a hilarious jest that had gone right over my head.

But anyway..

He was hospitalised (sectioned, effectively) and subsequently spent time in a lunatic asylum after cutting his ear off, so yup.  And while "utterly mental" isn't the most PC terminology these days they were right - he was!  At least he was then.

The diagnosis at the time was "acute mania with generalised delirium" (according to Wikipedia).  Lots of people have suggested more modern diagnoses since, but of course they're all guessing to some extent.

Also, he wasn't really recognised as being a particularly "dab hand with a paintbrush" during his lifetime either, he struggled to sell any of his work and lived most of his life in poverty.  Ironically he probably would have been better off if he was a 'painting by numbers' guy, churning out unoriginal, mediocre work that might have sold well enough to make him a living.

In reply to deepsoup:

Cf that Austrian fella - though maybe it depends how you define 'better off'

In reply to lewisrae:

Hmmm, I nearly didn't post my comment above on the reckoning I was being a grumpy oldster, so it's interesting to see maybe it's not just me.

In reply to robate:

Tbf im probably being grumpy too.

Guess this is climbing in the age of Instagram. Taps aff showboating and pulling onto problems you’ve no chance of sending for a photo of your project. seems to be the norm.

climbing these days seems to be more about how others perceive you than just having good crack and emotions ect experienced when climbing regardless of success or failure. A lot of insecure male egos at play in walls these days.

In reply to robate:

Also it’s a shame about the taps aff association as its the association with these attitudes leaves those of who consider our impact on others to cover up and sweat