UKC

Had an interesting experience yesterday on Portland and wanted to just to collect the thoughts of UKC.

A friend and I headed to the Cuttings. We went loosely with a group of fairly new climbers from our local wall. 

We all headed to Consommé and on arrival found draws in it and draws in the new 7b right of it that shares the belay. We opted to leave the party underneath to it and head back a bit later.

On our return the draws had gone from Consommé but the 7b was still equipped. Nobody in sight. One of the newer folks hopped on Consommé and as they got to the belay the other party arrived back. Cue courteous hellos. Our climber shouted down checking it was ok to lower off the locking biner left on the belay to facilitate the 7b. The other party said … no. So this guy, slightly shocked, went in hard and started threading the belay. 

I was frankly pretty shocked too. Never in my life have I had anything like that happen. Personally I’d have just clipped, lowered, and stripped our route. Anyone disagree?

Furthermore. Said party had draws in another route down the crag. A new party arrived and came down looking for draw owners. On finding them they were declined their request to try the route because: “we’re just heading down there now”… as he was lowering his mate from the 7b by Consommé!

Personally I thought this was all pretty off. Had it been me on the receiving end I’d have not taken it so well.

Combining this experience with the sheer volume of ticks on the Cuttings… I wonder if we are failing in our education of climbers when it comes to sharing the outdoors. Whose job should this be? Anyone got any suggestions?!

It’s an unwritten rule that if you leave draws on a route it’s fine for someone else to climb on them, and in this case it was just threading the screwgate. Can’t fathom why they would say no, surely it took your mate longer to rethread than it would have done to use their screwgate. Like you, I wouldn’t have even asked.

The “just heading down there now” is a bit more of a grey area, if the guy was lowering his mate and literally just about to go have a burn on the other route right then, I can understand why they said no… Though I probably wouldn’t have done this myself, and if I had I probably would have been a bit nicer about it, offered to leave the draws in and give your mate a burn right after mine… 

All in all, you’re right to feel cheesed off imho. But then your first mistake was going to the Cuttings in the first place, probably put the fairly new climbers off for life!

Yep, that's totally off - you can't "claim" a route by putting the draws in it - if you leave the draws then it's on the clear understanding that someone else can use them (if you're not climbing obvs).

Ropes in situ are a more complex matter for negotiation but I'd always allow my rope to be used for TR and offer to pull it if they wanted to lead. If the owners aren't there I'd pull them (and replace them if I could when I was finished).

Ditto abseil lines - always for sharing if you leave them.

I have noticed recently this odd attitude here and there and I think is it post-COVID new climbers - I think they've missed out on learning climbing manners.

Thankfully on my last couple of trips it's all been good, "do you mind if I use your clips? have a burn? share the lower off? use you ab line?" all, "of course" and nice chats.

However this year I've had some weirdly hostile encounters with gaze averted mumbled "noes" from, I think, inexperienced climbers.

In some ways it's reassurance that climbing is becoming ever more diverse and inclusive. Used to be that dickheads hardly ever participated. Now there are more every year.

First instance is just plain weird, I certainly wouldn't have asked. Could it be a miscommunication, and they thought the climber was planning to toprope?

Second one, again I wouldn't have asked... But having asked I guess you're giving the owner of the draws permission to say no. Maybe if the guy was getting ready for his 5 minute redpoint burn and was worried about a long projecting go taking place - in which case it should be easy for the other person to wait, but that should just be a conversation if he gets back to the route as you're tying in. 

Regarding ticks, it's a popular sport climbing venue, not a scenic mountain trad venue where we turn up and try to leave no trace. We've already altered the environment significantly - if we're going to remove all the loose blocks, "comfortise" holds, litter the crag with bolts, and remove all the vegetation, what difference does leaving some tick marks make? 

To your final question, I think there have always been d!cks in the outdoors and there always will be, because we're human. Most people who carry on climbing long enough will realise that the conventions are useful for all of us in the long run.

Agree with most of your post but strongly disagree with this. Ticks are useful. But should absolutely be brushed off. It’s always been the way. The U.K. way. The permanency of bolts is necessary. And they blend in fairly well. Ticks should never be a permanent fixture. Not only do they take away from the onsight experience they are extremely noticeable to others who share the crag with us. Take for example the bizarre tick on Hurricane on Millpond for a hidden foot yesterday. It’s about a foot long!! It’s basically graffiti. 

Regarding comfortising (read: chipping) at the Cuttings… this shouldn’t happen. And as far as I’m aware… hasn’t. De veg should be maintained. But not taken to extremes.

Personally I think this is a cop out.

It does kind of spoil it for other people going for an onsight, dont you think? Sometimes I tick things but I'll always clean it before I leave. It's a bit annoying when someone has left ticked holds which may or may not work for me. You're either aided or sandbagged- either way, your opportunity to work it out on your own is gone.

Yeah I’ve so many instances where holds that don’t work for me are ticked I just don’t pay attention to them, so they don’t really annoy me in the slightest.

Has there been a time when the ticked hold has helped?

I usually clean tick marks off too, but I'm not going to get too precious about it if others haven't. There's no "true" onsight at a popular sport crag unless you get someone to ab down before you get there with a powerwasher, because there's always chalk on holds, and you can see the good rests from a mile off.

Honestly can’t remember a time when I’ve reached for a ticked hold that I wouldn’t have spotted had the tick not been there.

To be honest I’m not sure why people tick obvious holds on routes? You can see the bloody thing without the tick?!

Precisely my issue at the cuttings

I’ve got plenty of issues with The Cuttings, tick marks are the least of them!

I don't see why people feel the need to tick mark holds in the first place! If you are going to beat a route into submission anyway, why not make remembering where the holds are part of that process? It's just painting by numbers...

When was the last time you went? Have you been this summer with the lack of rain?

Its pretty ugly. 

It’s been years since I’ve been, hate the place.   

People should of course brush ticks off after they’ve made them, wouldn’t ever argue otherwise…

Just saying they don’t bother me personally, though appreciate they do bother others.

You could always add decoy ticks to even restore clean ethics?

Be wary of climbing on insitu draws without asking the owner. I was in the gorges du tarn and saw draws in a route on a busy day so just hopped onto it for a quick flash attempt. Past the crux I turned the lip onto the slab to find the qds ended, with another 2 bolts of climbing and no draws on my harness I decided to jump off after some expletives. Lesson learnt haha

Just to add not all parties are like this - We were at a crag the other day were a couple had 2 ropes up on different routes, they kindly said we could climb the route which had their draws on and even use their rope if we wanted to whilst they worked the other one. Shame you bumped into some douche bags especially with some newbs.

Route in Spain years ago, right at my onsight limit. On the crux, virtually out of gas, I desperately followed some tick marks and was well chuffed to make it to the top clean. It was only when stripping the route that I realised the crucial ticks where not chalk at all but rather more avian in origin!

I'd normally only tick small footholds that are hard to spot quickly in the middle of a crux section, or blind holds that need a marker to hit the right spot, but maybe someone with poor eyesight might need to tick a lot more? Or someone going for a hard pre-practiced solo for safety sake? Or just someone who's really bad at memorising sequences but still wants to push their physical limits sport climbing?

Putting permanent protection into the wall is very much beating the route into submission - at that point you've already created an artificial leisure facility, so live and let live with regards to how people want to use that facility IMO.

If you want a true onsight experience, go to a remote sea cliff, not a busy sport crag.

I'd be happy If we could get people to reliably clean the holds on the way back down, never mind clean their tick marks.

100% agree, but perhaps the main point is that the rocks aren't there solely for climbers benefit. The rest of planet earth has a right to enjoy the locations that we do. Leaving tick marks is very uncool.

In Europe you are spoken to and if words aren't had, you are made to feel quite uncomfortable if not brushing holds off when leaving a bloc.

No, you really haven’t. You’ve put bolts into a piece of rock. What else subsequently happens still matters to others. 

Bolts can’t be brushed off, but chalk and tick marks should be minimised so that an unsightly mess isn’t left visible to other climbers and countryside users.

Can you direct me to some examples of non-climbing countryside users being bothered by tick marks, or even bolts?

I’m guessing here, but I’d say the majority of them never even notice either, let alone are bothered by their presence. 

Do you genuinely believe that drilling holes in the rock and inserting metal bolts isn't creating an artificial environment for our sport? 

Trust me. If you were at the Cuttings walking your dog on Saturday. You'd have noticed. I'd estimate 50% of routes of 7a or harder had ticks on over 50% of their holds. Jugs ticked. Even a ledge ticked. And then Hurricane had a foot long tick on a hidden foothold.

Total dogs dinner.

me too. 

Nor me.
 

it’s their job to find their way with cultural and etiquette type stuff if you ask me, certainly not yours. They sound like a gang of dicks. I’ve never experienced this with British climbers outdoors. Some other nationalities in mountain environments maybe, but not this. 
Take it steady. 

I agree 100%, certainly I’d have noticed them. But I’m a climber.

What I want to hear is examples of non-climbers noticing, and being bothered by bolts, tick marks or even chalk. 

People often talk about the impact these have on non-climbers enjoyment of climbing venues, but I’ve never heard a word about any of these things from any non-climbers. Dog sh!t and cyclists seem to be their main issues…

Doesn't matter if you're climber or not. It wouldn't even matter if you were a visually impaired non climber with a bad neck which meant you couldn't look up ... you'd have noticed them. This isn't just a bit of chalk blurring on the rock a la Stanage and other popular venues. This is defined and clear lines all over the place. The crag looks like it's been mapped out for stabilisation work.

So I'd wager, given comments have been made about Stanage over the years, that comments have been made (at least in private) about the Cuttings. 

As popularity soars it is hard enough for our access reps to keep landowners happy. Bolts are one thing... they're hard to see. But white lines all over the place. Can't we just agree to brush them off. It's not a big ask. I'm amazed this is even contentious.

I wouldn’t have asked either, just clipped and lowered off.

On the other hand, if they had draws in another route and were genuinely about to get on it, it’s fair / polite to wait. Given their attitude to the lowering biner, they might have ‘refused’ to let people get on ‘their’ route but that would have been against crag etiquette. 

If you’re that bothered about tick marks, why not spend the day brushing them off?

It’s not contentious at all, I said upthread that people ought to brush them off.  We both agree on that.

Look, it’s no big deal, they just bother me less than they do you. Sorry.

But that's just it. It's not about whether or not it bothers you or me. It's that we're asked by the BMC specifically not to do it in order to ensure access to these places is maintained with the minimum of fuss.

This thread is meant to be about whose job it is to educate people. Not debate if grid ticking will or will not annoy shared users. The BMC has already stated that it should not be done. That should be enough surely?

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/6-commandments-of-chalk-respect-rock

I brushed as many as I could reach. Which was a hell of a lot.

Can I ask you what you’re trying to get out of this exchange? What’s your end goal here?  

I’ve already said repeatedly that people ought to brush them off. I don’t know what you’re getting so worked up about or what it is that you want from me?

What do you want me to do, get all ventilated about the matter like you are?  I just don’t know what you want from me. I’m not sure you do either?

Yeah I'm not fan of people blocking off routes.  Personally after been told no to lowering on their crab , I would have threaded the lower off and cleaned to route of their gear.  

I hoped we, as a group, may have a few ideas on how we educate users of (particularly) popular crags on how we behave in a shared space.

Well maybe you ought to think about own behaviour in this shared space before you start to think about educating other people?   

You seem to have decided I'm public enemy no. 1 when it comes to tick marks, and have repeatedly berated me despite the fact I've said from the beginning that people ought to brush them off.  

If I'm honest with you, I was on your side reading your first post and thought you and your friends had been hard done by, but if this is how you carry on with people you don't even know then I'm not surprised they didn't show you even basic courtesy at the crag.

Sorry Greg. I didn’t realise you felt I was attacking you. Not my intention.

No sweat, I appreciate your apology.  And apologies if I've been annoying, also not my intention, though something I sadly seem to have a gift for.

Crag swag

There's been a number of places where land managers have removed bolts or had someone else removes them, so I guess that's definitely being bothered. It happened in Dovedale just the other the year didn't it? I think it was the BMC that removed them at the NT's request to maintain access. 

Yes, of course.  But in those cases were the bolts removed because of the unsightliness of the bolts to non-climbers, or because they were placed without permission and breached the terms of an existing access agreement?

For Dovedale, although the shiny-ness of the new bolts was noted by the NT worker and climbers, it was for the latter reason they were removed I believe?  

But I think that the aesthetics are part of the reason that there is an access agreement - so it's chicken and egg thing I suppose. Go into the old quarries along Middleton Dale and no one cares about new metal there amongst all the old industrial junk, but in a natural beauty spot like Dovedale how bolts (and that and perma-draws etc.) look obviously is part of the issues.

I suspect trampling vegetation underneath was more of a consideration, although aesthetics somewhere like Dovedale could also be a factor. Perhaps less so at the Cuttings.

I think most people would agree that large tick marks should be brushed off or avoided entirely. Small ones which aren’t visible from the ground are not a big issue. They might facilitate or upset someone else’s onsight but holds being chalked will be a bigger factor. The same goes for aesthetics - holds plastered in chalk are the bigger issue. It would be good if people used less chalk, particularly loose chalk, both indoors and out, but I guess that some people have sweaty hands.

That's a very fair point. 

Not sure what or why the agreement is as it is at Dovedale but it does look particularly lovely there (I've never been) so it's absolutely right that the aesthetic impact of bolts or indeed tick marks is given more weight than at the scruffy old quarries where UK sport climbing can often be found.

Agreed. I should have taken a photo of the Cuttings to show the extent. We're not talking a couple of small feet and a hidden crimp tick here and there.

I don't suppose the dry summer has helped. Hopefully the recent rain has sorted some of them out!

May be it’s the indoor climbers unable to see holds outside because they aren’t coloured. Can be hard enough indoors with all the chalk…

Actually I disagree with that, when I did Fighting Torque the tick on to where exactly on the flowstone i had to grab whilst max out was a game changer. The whole rib looks very similar and made a huge difference. Same with the blind foothold nubbins on white rock, ticks made a massive difference to locate them as fast as possible whilst just barely holding on. Of course i brushed them after.

Many a time I've been at Kyloe-In when locals have complained about the chalk on the crag. It got to the point where a few of us spent a few hours cleaning the entire crag of chalk, using water from the beck (which rarely runs these days). The apres-clean friction was incredible and the crag looked pristine. It really brought home to me the condition we leave the crags in.

Bothered or not, I would argue the majority certainly notice. How could you not? Some crags are an absolute disgrace.

Good work.

It is not fighting amongst ourselves we should worry about here but our impact on others.

It is not beyond imagination for a concerned group to lobby landowners about the visual impact of climbing or to take matters into their own hands as has happened previously.

Given how much aid you got from it, are you not tempted to go for a no-tick ascent for the full tick then?  

No not really. For that same principle you should re-climb all your routes in EB's and hemp ropes... I'm sure they helped you too 

Even in the days when aid climbing was the accepted norm, I expect they would have frowned upon the idea of drawing a dot-to-dot up the cliff!  

I'm a little young for the kit you suggest but I do generally try and return and repeat climbs I've either failed or done in poor style  

I thought it was maybe worth mentioning that often in my experience new climbers (which often populate the cuttings) can be a lot more cautious with letting strangers use their gear, and possibly that was their reasoning behind not letting you lower off.
I know to a lot of climbers that sounds ridiculous, but I’d say most climbers wouldn’t want to let strangers use their ‘soft’ gear like ropes and slings etc, and although hard/soft are very different types, to a less experienced climber the distinction may not be so obvious.

Well it's up to you then to consider a failed or poor ascent to use tick marks, but I'm well chuffed with climbing 8a at my age even using the odd tick mark here and there. Ticking a hold on a crux of a hard route is hardly climbing dot to dot as you suggest, but hey, who cares

It was only meant as a bit of a joke really... Ok I ramped it up and went too far after the (slightly) ageist retort, sorry. I'd be chuffed getting up an 8a at any age in any style tbh. The dot-to-dot comment wasn't really aimed at you, more my own summary of how the OP described the crag in question (which does sound like people have gone more than a bit OTT with the ticking).

Agree with you "its totally depends a person to use tick marks.