UKC

Lots of varied sentiment on UKC this week. I am interested to see how it correlates with class.

Obviously there are few full on working class Sun reading cap doffers here but most other walks of life seem to be well represented.

I have a theory that most of those upholding the pomp and ceremonial nonsense being dished out this week are probably posh boys.

So nail your flags to the mast - are you moved by recent events? If so did you go to public school?

I went to a posh direct grant grammar school in the 1970s. I'm a left wing republican. But I don't post unpleasant sweary stuff like some of your recent posts. 

Yes

No

Is that supposed to be as insulting as it looks?

No,  just an observation that UKC is as middle class as it is grit centric generally speaking.

Working class I think, I liked the Queen and was sad when she died. Kind of feel sorry for the rest of them, I think they got a pretty bad hand in life. Not a supporter of the monarchy but I'm quite ambivalent about it, wouldn't go protesting or anything. Andrew has questions to answer. I like Harry and Kate but not to fond of Will or Megan. Ann rocks.

I'm firmly working class, ancestors back to hand weavers of old monklands / coatbridge, then when that died out all types of mining and shipbuilding. Primarily engineers, so not bottom of the food chain but certainly not rich, no one ever privately schooled. However every generation has served, not just the wars, but longer or other times, my grandad for example was fleet air arm flying off various east coast bases in ww2, but remained in after as a trainer. The fact he was aircrew clearly means he was considered above canon fodder level, but we were never middle class, holidays were uk seaside resorts etc. 

Me, a royalist, but realist. The coverage and some presenters are way over the top, but perhaps that's military training for you, I can respect her, the loss of her, but doesn't mean I need to go around as a blubbering wreck, or add stuff on Facebook etc. Or make grand public gestures, i just know within myself my views and that's all that matters.

I've transcended the system, in other words, I have no class. 😉😉

It appears that you can manage to be insulting without even realising it...

Most of our lifestyles today would put us in upper middle when the queen was born, so yeah moving up through the ranks! 

How is saying that most us think that Grit is Great, insulting?

Most definitely not posh, went to state school and left without a single qualification.

I have little to no interest in the royals but I watched the moving of her body from the Palace today and felt proud to be British. (watched it on my phone on site, not in person)

Probably won't be watching the funeral, I will be walking in the woods with the Mrs and dog's. 

I wanted for nothing as a kid, then went to art school in Surrey then hit reality like a wall, decades lost to incapacitating mental health problems, these days regularly work 60 hour weeks at ever so slightly above minimum wage and I would not change any of it. I respect the Royal Family for living fearlessly in the spotlight but ask me what class I am and I'd be proper flummoxed.

Both parents and all previous generations working class and NCOs in all branches of the military.  I went to private school, but that's because it was the only English school in the country and paid for by 'the company' (expat upbringing).  Royalist views - I'm neutral.  Just a family of people in a very privileged position with jobs to do which were done to varying degrees of success.  Such is life.  However, I refuse to be told how to feel by the media.

Still bewildered by the phrase "passing".  She didn't pass anything, she died.  That's not so hard is it? 

standard lily livered middle class liberal me. Standard comp school, work in public sector. Voted to stay and can't understand for the life of me why on earth people would want to leave. Ambivalent about royalty, don't give a toss about the family but like the pomp and the architecture associated with it. Hated Johnson and Corbyn in equal measure, middle of the road politically and admired Blair. Don't understand the obsession with grit though, its pants compared to Gogarth quartzite or Lewisian gneiss.

Much like some royals, it's overrated. It's what middle englanders put up with in the absence of multi pitch granite. 

Is there a favourite rock type class system correlation?

Scottish working class = dolerite.

Others I'm less certain about.

Grit is about history.... and tradition.

Tee-Hee.

Actually my favourite rock is that below Sgurr Alasdair, and for friction, the Torridonian sandstone found at the Old Man of Stoer.

I've been on grit today for the first time in years, got spanked but...

Truly, grit was what God had in mind when she invented climbing.

Huh?

I would hate having money, connections and limitless opportunity. I'm sure it's not always plain sailing but definitely not a bad hand!

Money that you didn't earn, opportunity to do what? Freezing palaces you don't really own, no privacy. Global fame and scrutiny from birth, tragedies played out in front of a nation. No real friends. I think it sounds like a nightmare, how could you feel proud of your achievements or have any self worth born into a position like that?

I'm a born and raised middle class Guardian reader who went to a comprehensive. I realised that the Queen's death would involve a big public funeral, but I am genuinely astonished at all the people who are so upset about the death of someone they never met.

My parents both went to public schools. My mum's side would probably qualify as posh - listed in Debretts. They are all socialist, pacifist and ardent republicans with no time for upper class crap. My dad came from shopkeepers who earned enough to send their kids to public school. I haven't asked him what he thinks about it, I suspect like me it has barely crossed his mind. But his parents were pretty pro royal. So based on my family, the posh ones are republicans and the working class ones are royalists.

Middle class, Comp school in a South Yorkshire pit village.

Bit of a cold fish, so not moved much by most things.

Just watched the Red Roses belt out "God Save the King" - sounded pretty good.

(bad luck Wales)

, how could you feel proud of your achievements or have any self worth born into a position like that?

I don't think that's just a royal problem.... 

Scottish working class background.  Went to a school which would have been definitely in the lower half of the league tables had they existed then.

Mother quite liked the royals but not enough to have a Charles and Di wedding mug or anything like that.  Dad considered them a bunch of scroungers.

I somehow managed to get a degree but work in a low paid, public service, clerical job.

Im completely bemused by the level of interest.  An elderly woman died.  I’m glad for her sake and that of her immediate family that, as far as we know, she didn’t suffer any long illnesses and went quickly.  I’d feel that about any other fellow human (with a few horrible exceptions).

Why people want to queue up to shuffle past a coffin is a mystery to me.  If it was my parent in the box I’d be telling them to all go home, get a grip and stop being so self-indulgent, they didn’t know her at all.

I am absolutely not a royalist and do not accept being anyones “subject.” I didn’t  have anything personal against the queen, how could I, I didn’t  know her, had no idea what sort of person she was other than what the public was allowed to see.

Ifelt sympathy for her when I saw footage of her at her late husband’s funeral, as I would for any elderly person being alone in such circumstances.  Other than that, she didn’t cross my consciousness much at all.

On Monday I will be at work.  We are considered to be a lifeline service and will be operating as usual, no public holiday.

Working class from Liverpool council estate....one Irish and one English parent.

I grew up very left wing and anti monarchy. Not sure what I think nowadays.....people like Johnson and Truss lean me towards a system where they are not absolutely the number 1 in the country. I hope Charles modernises the whole royalty thing and they pay all appropriate taxes etc...if it's modernised and less hyped I'd continue to support its existence...

Kind of feel sorry for the rest of them, I think they got a pretty bad hand in life. 
really ? 
I won’t ,because it might be in poor taste , at this time but I would have otherwise posted pictures of castles , Aston martins , boats , private islands etc etc etc .  

Think I'm quite working class (or maybe lower middle class, if that wasn't a load of bollocks to split the voting public), somewhat northern.

Fairly indifferent to the royal family but I dont think many people could argue that the queen wasnt iconic. It's quite a change, and I think even those who are anti-monarchy must see that. 

Born working class, passed 11+, went to state grammar and uni. Taught for 30 years. Now reluctantly admit to being middle class. Left of centre republican. Find monarchy intellectually indefensible and constitutional arguments for it wholly unconvincing. Can see its worth as tourist attraction/entertaining soap opera but it means nothing to me emotionally. Think of myself as a patriot so object to loyalty and love of homeland being associated with monarch by so many.

When she made grit, it was intended as a children's playground - she put the adult one in Torridon.

A few times recently somebody on here has put into words exactly what I ve wanted to say. I particularly like your last sentence . I did try to say that on a building site im working on a site this week but struggled to put it into words .

Public school!!! There were 150 of us living in septic tank in middle of M1.

I think you may be getting unnecessarily angry about things.  I'd advocate breathing into a paper bag.... before you do something daft, like superglueing your nose to Westminster Abbey.

Right from when this first happened you've been gloating about the Queen's death and seem to be determined to be an insulting hateful arse. At least you're consistent I suppose.

The irony of I've met Charles (and Andrew) and also been to a wedding in Westminster Abbey!

Come on - were are all the royalists on this thread? I know the Stainforth brothers are public school boys. I have a feeling Robert Durran might be, more because of his general demeanour than anything.

Middle class.

My mother and her grandparents were monarchists. My Dad detested any form of deference or cap doffing and any of this " Sir or Ma'am" stuff and treated everyone with equal respect. He viewed it as utter crap.

I have inherited a bit of both in my genes. I could never be bothered with any of the past Royal celebrations. But this time round I recognise the end of Andrew Marrs description of the Elizabethan Age for the last 70 odd years.Mixed emotions this time.

Last year my business won a Queens Award for Export (so now one  of the last recipients of it).It went down very well with all my team and was a great occasion ( even my republican employees enjoyed the reading of the Warrant etc). We had the Queens rep in the County with us for a ceremony which was brilliantly put together by them. I had all my employees families come along.Everyone had a great time.

Then I went on my own to Windsor Castle- met Charles, Anne and Edward. I hated it, all that doffing was awful. I could not get away fast enough. But being in Windosr Castle with all that history and it being explained was unreal.

Contrary to what some may think, I'm very Royalist. I think the BBC has got it spot on in not allowing any balance to creep into its wall-to-wall coverage. And as for those people queueing for miles and for days to glimse a bit of wood in London, while haters may call them brainwashed or even stupid, I have nothing but the highest of respect for them showing so much love for and continued deference to someone they've never even met.

If you really, genuinely believe that then I suggest that you look again at the tv footage of the crowds lining the streets during the various processions and ceremonies across the United Kingdom. No doubt there were "posh boys" amongst them but what I saw was ordinary men, women and children paying their respects to a much loved person and asserting their good wishes to her successor.

I believe there have also been suggestions that monarchists are made up predominantly of older, white people. Again, if you subscribe to that view, look again.

I'm officially posh. I think many posh people see the royals as people just doing a job. I have met several minor royals, and many of my family and close friends have met the serious royals, attended weddings etc. The pageantry and mystique is less impressive once you have attended a few white tie events and heard firsthand stories of the royals as individuals.

I guess that results in less strong feelings about the value or lack thereof about the institution of monarchy; it doesn't seem like an anachronism or particularly extravagant. I imagine many of my peers would privately express respect for the Queen and Charles, but wouldn't dream of doing anything so gauche as going to see the coffin or publicly expressing grief.

Counterintuitively I think it is easier for those in the lower middle and working class to express genuine sadness at the Queen's death, and to claim the sort of personal connection that many of us do with celebrities.

I do not intend to attach any value judgement to anything I have said.

The stats show far lower support for the monarchy amongst younger people.  Its not "suggestions".

Are you channelling Joe Lycett here?! To be fair the today programme had a 30 second segment with someone presenting a negative view of the monarchy. Blink and you would have missed it.

Maybe you should familiarise yourself with the comment attributed to Benjamin Disraeli by Mark Twain.

Maybe you should familarise yourself with selection bias. However someone who decides to jump from "decides to have a look at a spectacle" with "monarchist" is likely to struggle with that sort of concept.

Mildly, and no.  Working class background but direct grant grammar school boy. 

I think there is something moving about the guard of honour in Westminster Hall and people experiencing it directly are clearly affected by it.  I respected the Queen and I'm surprised to find myself royalist to the extent that I can't think of a better alternative (my teenage self would have been horrified).    

Recent experience in this country demonstrates how easy it is to demolish important structures and conventions without putting anything even functional in their place.  It's easy to be against things, not so easy to implement replacements that are equivalent, let alone improvements.  Of course it's a no-brainer that ruling by the divine right of accidental birth is morally and logically indefensible - except that having an automatic process that is widely accepted avoids a lot of political instability and possibly much worse.  A suitably constitutionally controlled monarchy is a pretty good compromise.    

I have no class whatsoever, went to a bog standard comprehensive, prefer Netflix over the mawkish wall-to-wall mourning of someone I have never met, I read the Guardian, and doff no caps to anyone at all.

Does this correlate with an ordinary living, breathing human being? Maybe I'm a closet working class posh boy? Should I identify as a square pigeon in a fruitless search for a suitable hole?

Am I moved? A little, only because I love history and it feels like the end of an era, and I love the ceremony

Did I go to public school? Yes. But in my defence I'm not a Tory

Why The Capital Letters!?

‘I just think if people are going to bother writing on a public Internet forum they should at least construct the sentence correctly!’ ; ) 

I am moved by recent events. And I grew up in Leigh which is exceptionally posh. I’ve since moved to Wigan, via places like Sunderland and Partick, so I only know poshness.  

Politically left, and my view of the monarchy is similar to Brexit - Remain and Reform. I’ve found the whole thing fascinating and, I’m almost embarrassed to admit it, but it’s made me kinda proud. I say ‘embarrassed’ because I usually don’t get this ‘proud to be British’ concept.  I also find human behaviour fascinating, and spend many an hour trying to unravel what makes different folk tick. 

About 44 seconds in, is me meeting King Charles !!

https://m.facebook.com/Theoldcourts/videos/prince-charles-visits-the-old-co...

Also met his dad. 

You're angry that 'your' queen is dead
And you know that I don't care
You're angry that I don't recognise
Her 'rightful Son and Heir'
 

You're angry that I don't show 'respect'
To something I don't believe
You're angry that I have the freedom
To choose when I should grieve

You're angry, that unlike you,
I wasn't put upon this earth
To bow and scrape and know my place,
Like some medieval serf
 

You're Angry that somehow,
I'm allowed a point of view
You're angry when you realise
I don't agree with you
 

You're angry that I don't embrace
Your feudalistic rules
You're angry because you know that I despise
Such grovelling, fawning  fools
 

But you see, I am angry too
About so many different things
Born in a world of sycophants,
And all the grief it brings
 

I'm angry at the BBC, the Daily Mail,
The morons that they quote
The puerile propaganda
They're ramming down my throat
 

I'm angry that I'm mourning,
For a vision that has gone
Angry that we can't make a world
That works for everyone
 

I'm angry that we're still held back
By forelock tuggers such as you
Angry that you're wedded to your masters
And your own outdated view
 

I'm angry that you worship
The people at the top
Your whole world's an anachronism
It really has to stop.
 

Kevan Hughes

Quite moved by recent events. this has come in the same year I lost both my parents so I feel a certain empathy towards Her family.

I have no idea why you think going to public school has anything to do class.  Did you go to public school? Has it turned you into an upper class snob? All it did for me was give me a decent education and a thirst for knowledge (and that's pretty much the same for the few classmates I've kept in touch with).  Maybe Down south public schools are different to northern ones?   

A statement that could only be vocalised by someone who has been to a public school!

I am far from convinced that  the majority of the estimated 400k people that will file through Westminster Hall over the next few days are "posh boys".

Simon Armitage's poem is clever though with the start of each line.....

Been few comments along the lines of "someone they've never met". Given the number of public engagements over 70 years, I reckon a lot of those queuing will have met her. If only briefly.

Me: middle class, state school, left of centre pragmatist. Not bothered either way by monarchy. Not personally bothered by the Queen's death (or any celebrity death); never been a fawning fan of anyone. But I recognise it as the end of an era. For my mum, it was the last recognisable person of her generation; all her siblings are dead, as are all her old friends, and she's grown up with the royal princesses, then queen, as a constant background presence, though she's never been an overt, flag-waving royalist.

And that's a statement that could only be vocalised by somone who doesn't have the faintest idea what they're talking about. 

Perhaps you could elaborate. I did indeed go to a public school and yet, besides knowing how to spell and do sums, that fact has not assisted in my far from meteoric rise to where I am today (which is office drone I'd say).  And; as I said before, none of my classmates have done much better.  Again, are you only referring to southern public schools?

edit.  just to further fuel the discussion, my mam was a teacher and my dad was an office manager for the local Tug company.  Hardly the types to go round wearing a coronet. 

I doubt there are many ardent Royalists - many more folk who respected the Queen for how she met her own terms of behaviour, and dont really see a pressing need to change the current system.

And since the monarch is the current head of state then they get some respect from me for being so.

If setting up a country from scratch I dont think many would plump for our current system. However many of the countries we often look up to on here, eg Sweden, Norway etc have monarchies, so its not too much of a hinderence to a nation to have one.

I was going to post something along the lines of what you just have, or that someone who hadn't attended a public school wouldn't understand that experience.

But then I remembered the significantly disproportionate representation of ex-public school pupils in positions of power and authority. And thought that maybe Hardonicus might just have a point...

And we're back to 'lived experience'...

No.  And no.

Middle class, parents are teachers. Inner city comp education, went to uni but didn't do anything special. Earnings wander between below to a few k above the national average but I own my own apartment, work in an office but not a "professional" or manager. Proud Labour Party member, actively "woke." Font 7A+ on rock, never been on a rope.

Can't stand the monarchy, would get rid of them in an instant, think all of this is just more evidence as to why. 

I did both, local comprehensive for O levels then scholarship to do A levels at local private school. As you say later, it's only my experience, but I did feel very much out of place and was only tolerated there to boost their A level results. 

I'd add to that the discrepancy between the  average earning of 30 year old graduates, depending on whether they were previously privately educated or not. 

I’d have said the same maybe 10 or 15 years ago. But then I look at all the showers of s**t that we’ve elected to high office in this country and think we’re probably better off with the royals as head of state rather than some elected or appointed figurehead…

Honestly, I just don’t trust us to jot end up appointing Jacob Rees Mogg or some other horror show… We’d be (even more of) an international laughing stock…

Well my wind up by having those capital letters worked. I was having a bit of fun. By the way I'm not totally focused on grit, and will happily climb anywhere given the chance. I just think that it is funny going along with the sentiment of "What has he/she ever done on grit"

1. Yes

2. No

Any more simplistic views and generalisations?

Your position on both points?