UKC

Hi 

This thread could belong in RockTalk.

How important is mental strength in training for hard routes and the routes themselves?

During the pandemic I read a few books on climbing and I watch climbing videos on YouTube.

Sav luvz Sheff

I think coping with the boredom of training requires discipline which you could argue is a form of mental strength. Dave Macleod said something like you have to learn to enjoy the grind of training if you are going to get results. 

I think I read somewhere the average climber operates at around HVS. This suggests to me that learning to enjoy the process of proper training is something that most climbers cannot attain.  There's a reason why world class climbers are thin on the ground!

I train because I enjoy the process of learning, adapting and improving. I think that's the best way I can describe it. Some people like to just go climbing. I wouldn't say it's anything to do with mental strength, just different priorities. If you want it enough, you'll put the time into it.

Hi

I totally agree with him. I am not going outdoor climbing for a while so I can focus on training for hard sport project - I will probably go and check out the route and do some routes on the crag though. I have made training fun bungling to social sessions and training in other cities.

When I was a member of my local climbing club most of the people members operated at HS/VS with a few senior members that could do HVS and the occasional E1. A friend on here from Craggy Island - now part of Spider Climbing - can lead E4 but still likes to do VDiffs. My toproping partners from those days were good climbers and could do E grades but preferred to sport climb and boulder. 

Sav 

I would be cautious of avoiding outdoor climbing altogether, although I'm not very good, some of my biggest improvements have come from climbing outdoors a lot more than I had been previously. I think having to read an outdoor route often means you're hanging on for longer, sometimes in awkward positions, which is difficult to replicate in a gym environment. 

Going back to the mental strength thing, I think varying your training by climbing outdoors can break up the tediousness of fingerboarding and strength and conditioning (or whatever you're working on), and helps to give you feedback on your improvements, which is very motivating.

I think training hard can build psychological resilience in the face of  discomfort. Having said that you need to have a clear vision of what the goals are then you can plan a path of adaption towards that goal it might be doing laps at a leading wall keeping the intensity constant so by the end of the seshion you are conditioning yourself to keep going above bolts say while being very pumped.Just one example obviously many more depends on what your are training for basically

You could swap out the name of  Dave Macleod and any reference to climbing and instead swap in another sport and another name and your reply would be just as valid!

One trains for not giving up on the big day by not giving up in training.

Climbers climb. If you just train all the time you'll probably get better at training which might make you better at climbing. If you want to get better at climbing then training helps but you'll need to climb.

Give us some context, what are your current hardest outdoor onsight and redpoint leads and what's the grade of your project?

With regards to the boredom of training bit...

I remember some recently retired pro cyclist saying that most pros retired not because of reduction in athletic powers but because after maybe 20 years of it they just couldn't face the training and it's associated  sacrifices.

I am very much the same but I do enjoy climbing in grit. As regards to the last sentence, I have been told this many times and I agree.

Sav

I'm ashamed of that second apostrophe. 

I find it can work both ways too. All spring I did punishing endurance laps to up my sport climbing grade (alongside the usual other stuff), with the goal of finally getting back to a pre-accident level of trad climbing in the summer. When I was struggling to make myself complete sets I said to myself “imagine you’re runout on your best onsight sport or above the gear next summer - you’ll want this fitness then”. Generally worked to get me to complete.

conversely, a fair few times in Leonidio over Easter I was able to bear down and push on after consciously saying to myself “you’ve trained for this, you’re fitter than you think” - and even though I didn’t always make the chains I always made more moves than I thought I had left.

take home lesson: physical and mental training are intricately interrelated 

Absolutely, I remember Mark Twight saying something like 'people talk about climbing being 50%physical and 50% mental but it's 100% physical and 100% mental 100% of the time.'

Not the exact quote but you get the idea.

You know, I agree. I do have a an to go to  Malham Cove and some routes.

When I went to  Burbage North back in July with Offwidth and Ania Kaminska, Steve and myself noticed improvements in my climbing from the last time we met. This time I did three routes including an arete called Overhanging Buttress Arête (M) - Last time I didn't get a single route done. 

I am writing this trip in my blog at present.

Back in August I posted a thread about a route and there were plenty of jokes about things associated with the route. The thread has been archived now.

Let's just say if I did the route, red point wise, I would be found from zero to almost F9a hero.

It's not a bad thing to dream big, just don't get disappointed if you don't make those dreams happen. That's why enjoying process and just enjoying the activity is so important.

Too right.

I enjoy the process and activity too. I was so happy that I did my first indoor lead and lead belayed safely. I have attended board socials at CanaryWall and even been given goals to aim for next time. I practice Vinyasa Flow Yoga most days at home. I feel more focused during social climbing events. 

During my Craggy Sutton days I used to say I'm too fat too climb hard but fellow climbers - including a sandstone legend - kept telling me about a very large Yorkshire climber who climbed hard as nailz trad and sport routes and one of the routes I talked Lochness Monster Bermuda Triangle about on here.

Sav

Found was meant to be going.

Dreaming big is cool, and enjoying the activity is cool.  (In fact just enjoying the activity is probably enough for most people most of the time.  It's all I need from climbing these days.)

I think for training to be actual training it also needs to be directed towards a realistic, measurable and reasonably short-term goal.

Hi.

The MasterClass guy did something like this in his video for the endurance part of one of his videos. Sab has got a run out section after a boulder problem.

Sav

The first sport crag I checked out was  Malham Cove and I am very keen to climb there.

Its old and trusted method a cross over of training and performance.There are  some good leading walls in the north of england and back in the 2000s friends and i decided that in the absence  of the right grade and style of sport rts outdoors for us to do volume /endurance training we would do this indoors.It was extremely effective.

Too right.

The wall I have been too a few times is Kendall Wall, what centres do you know that have good lead walls. I am meeting Offwidth in Nottingham sometime to train, what is the Nottingham Climbing Centre like? 

I am planning to do this activity at social sessions. 

Sav

Are you talking about certain physical attributes needed to do a hard route? 

Correction:You know, I agree. I do have a plan to go to  Malham Cove and do some routes.

There's lots of different mental skills, not sure I'd call any of them "strength". Personally, I'm abysmal at trying hard, totally terrified of falling, even indoors, can't be bothered to train and constantly give up when things are a hassle, i.e. difficult. So not what you'd call "mentally strong".

That said, I frequently clock up double figures in E points in an afternoon soloing, usually short  routes with no gear that seem to me to be ludicrously overgraded (I guess cause they're graded by/for people who don't like soloing).  Some people think that requires "mental strength" but to me it's just pottering around making the right calls about whether to push on or climb back down, depending how the holds feel.

No, not at all.

The foundry has very good setting .AW is good both in sheffield.The new depot wall here in leeds is due to reopen  sometime in late autumn Kendal is my favourite wall.All depends on quality of setting i guess.Systematic training at Kendal was the wall that helped me  break into 7a/b(from 6c/+ rp) in siurana in 1998 a massive step for me at the time.From a mental  approach side doing masses of mindful volume indoors increases your ability to focus and trains you to switch off your thinking and so help reduce anxiety about say falling or success anxiety.Ive miss this form of training life has moved on for me.But its a great way of making the walls work for you on several levels i think..

It's as important as the physical strength in my view. I find physical training is typically fairly easy to motivate myself for if I've got a goal outside. Using a good app like Crimpd and someone trustworthy to write a training plan keeps your nose to the grindstone.

The real strength however comes when you get in to projecting the actual goal. When things go badly, or conversely when you get close to the tick... you've got to dig deep.

For example. I bolted a route with a friend in 2007. Only 9 meters but utterly savage for me. I gave up on it pretty quickly. It wasn't until I witnessed the second ascent last May that I decided to try again. Spent last winter training. And then spring trying to do it. I was miles off - had to dig deep to stay at it. I worked it over summer in the heat which was good training! And now cons are getting better... I'm very close. I fell off the very last hard move on Monday. 

For me this is where I've really got to find that mental 6th gear and just keep turning up, be aware things may go backwards before a positive conclusion, and grit those teeth. The expectation at this stage can ironically be the millstone that holds you back. And that's entirely mental.

No one has ever been mentally tough enough to train from zero to F9a hero and you won’t be the first.

Those that have climbed F9a have done so by being mentally tough enough to get from whatever level they are at, to just a tiny bit higher and then repeated that process many times over years. Often they have had to overcome the setbacks that have knocked them back grades at a time.

By the sounds of things, as well as you outdoors Mod, you’ve now done an indoor lead. That’s great, it means you are no longer at zero! To PROGRESS TOWARDS your goal you only need to improve ever so slightly. Do this by first consolidating what you have achieved by repeating more routes at the same grade. This will build a base you can push off from into the next higher grade. Little by little you will climb the grades until you reach your personal limit. This may not be the F8b or F9a you dream of but if you’ve done your best and gotten as good as you can then you can be proud of what you have achieved. Sitting at home dreaming isn’t doing your best and won’t ultimately achieve much. Fire up your mental toughness and get consolidating.

He wants recommendations in the North. Everyone knows Sheffield is actually in the Midlands 😉

This is the crux of the whole thing. The first step to training is to actually get up and train. Make the little improvements the goal and you'll soon improve 

You used the word measurable.

Please tell me what you are talking about.

Sav

Not wishing to step on deepsoups toes, but...

You are not going to get from zero to 9a overnight, so how are you going to track your progress? One way could be to set some intermediate goals, for example, climb 6a by December, 6b by March, 6c by June. These would be measurable goals. As you can then measure whether you are on course to 9a, and if you fail to meet one of your measurable goals, you can then try and do something about it.

Hi Jon.

I used to get afraid of falling but fallen three times so far at climbing walls - mostly bouldering - but I returned to climbing after a break from each fall.

In my opinion that does require mental strength.

Sav

I have been to both walls but I have only ever lead at The Foundry. For me, Sheffield is home from home - Iive in London. I am thinking of a move to Sheffied. Is that Big Depot Leeds you were referring to? Great improvement - well done! I have checked out the boards in the Kendal Wall training room. 

Sav 

Sheffield is in the East Midlands.

He did say North of England and I only know Kendal Wall.

What are you sat with the winky emoji?!

Sav

Wo! Wo! Wo!

Hold it right there!....

....I would need to move near the rock  - for example Sheffield - to consolidate this and keep improving and consolidating....

Or is your post about something altogether different?

Who said anything about F8b? Funny you mentioned that grade though as it is the grade of Predator (8b) which I'll need to climb before it's extension Sabotage.

Sav in Sheff.

Its the big depot yes.I would also add that in my own development in sport climbing the best progression always occurred when i had plenty of training/climbing partners at the crucial times..All the sport climbing training plans in the world are useless almost if at the end of the day you dont have at least one partner motivated to train the same things as you.(eg re-adaption to outdoor sport climbing).

I have actually had a look at some 6th grade indoor leads when I was at The Foundry and also had a few pops on a 5+ indoor lead which is was an arete - something that I am an a bit wary off.

Also before I headed to Sheff, during the WestWay Club night, the supervising coach tried to get me to toprope some 5+ on a slab - I didn't make it to the top though.

Sav 

Too right about the climbing/training partners. The gentleman I was climbing with at The Foundry was very encouraging and had similar goals to me. I know of one person who is also keen to do Sabotage (8c+) but he lives in Sheffield. The woman me and Offwidth climbed with at Burbage North was encouraging to. I don't know anybody who is interested in re-adaptation to outdoor sport climbing. 

Sav luvz Sheff 

What if I have figured out that I have been me tally tested? 

I'm working on doing f7B board problems at the social.

Sav

How many f7A board problems have you completed?

None yet. As I had little core tension when I started and needed a bit more pull power. One is soft and one is spot on - Nathan Whaley set.

Not sure if it belongs here. I have some questions about my testing.

Maybe they belong here.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/walls+training/vinyasa_flow_yoga-750791

None is what I expected the answer to be.

For your training to be effective it has to be based on the reality of where your level is at, not where you’d like it to be.

Find the grade of climbing your are comfortable operating at now i.e. the level you have consolidated, then be “working on” something a grade or so harder. Not something six or ten grades harder.

I can currently climb about F6c. I’d love to be pushing at F8a’s but for now “working on” 8a’s would be a waste of my time. It would not be as effective as working and eventually completing 7a’s.

To progress, no matter how painful it may be, you have to accept your current level and work up from there. There are no shortcuts. This is where the mental toughness comes in.

What about the question of being tested?

Where would they belong?

I have only done two socials.

Was told I should use the circuit board then the woodies - nothing easier than f5a on the less steep woody 

I might do a Boulderama session next week to see where I am.

A coach told me I should try to climb F6c routes.

Sav

Not at all, thanks for elaborating. (And saving me the trouble - it's a bit of a wasted effort I fear, I don't think Sav is really interested and it's kind of glaringly obvious to everyone else.)

I should really try to spend less time making pointless posts on here, but I always struggle to resist this kind of pedantry so here goes:

No it isn't.

The definitions of the English regions always used to be a bit ad-hoc, with different border lines for different purposes, and Sheff was always a bit ambiguous being kinda sorta the Southern extremity of "The North" but also kinda sorta midlands really.

That was all tidied up in 1994 when clear boundaries between nine official English regions were drawn.  Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire are entirely in the 'East Midlands', South Yorkshire is entirely in 'Yorkshire and the Humber'.

As the city has expanded to the South it's actually annexed bits of NE Derbyshire into S Yorks, and if you travelled Eastwards as the crow flies from Hathersage to Worksop you would start and finish in the East Midlands but dip in and out of Yorkshire twice along the way.

Just going to share my thoughts on your original question:

Mental strength is clearly important, but you don't seem to have a clear idea about what that means. Mental strength is not reading books and watching videos on YT. Mental strength could be: having the discipline and motivation to train over a long period of time, even when you're not feeling it; going back to the project after making some/no/negative progress; having another go when you felt like it was going to happen and you fluffed an easy move etc.; recovering from injury; trying to find the balance between wanting to do the climb and not getting to frustrated when you don't. The list is basically endless, mental strength to me encompasses everything about the logical-emotional combination of what we choose do, why we do it and how we approach it.

The reason people might seem a bit frustrated on this thread is because you don't seem to be acknowledging the huge gap between your current level and your aspiration. It's great to be keen and most people will be totally behind any psyched climber, but you seem to want respect for having a 'project' that is miles away from where you're currently at. For example, I see you've 'sent' your 8c+ project in your logbook - is that true though? Long term vision is great (I for example would love to climb an 8A - just arbitrary because of the grade, I'm currently miles off) but that can only be useful as a motive for realistic and measurable progress e.g. currently projecting a 7C (one grade above my max of 7B) and setting time conscious training goals.

It's hard to tell online, but you're coming across as a bit arrogant in dismissing people's sensible advice about how to set simple goals and enjoying the process rather than fixating on the outcome. 

Crikey, I didn't realise your goal was 8c+. Cool. Following on from the last post by Wyre...

As others have said, set manageable goals along the way. It'll be a long road to 8c+ and I'm afraid age is against you. But why not try!

That said... 8c+ is stratospheric. Is is SO hard. Compared to 8c+, 8a will be approaching a warm up. And 8a is far above the means of almost all climbers. 

If I were you, frankly, for now I'd set a 7b+ goal, then an 8a goal. There's a massive difference between those grades too. But get to 7b+ and then if you can consistently boulder 7B and can climb 7b+ and clip the chain with no pump you have a half decent chance at successfully projecting an 8a. You'll see along the way whether you've got drive to carry on... because getting to 8c+ is going to require a lot more sacrifice over getting to 8a... which in itself will require sacrifice.

Each grade will be harder to achieve than the last as you approach your limit. Your age will mean you'll have to work harder to maintain and build strength, so you'll need to consider sleep and nutrition. Your job will have to fit around your goal.

When you've hit 8a. 8b+ is up next. Again a whole world harder than 8a, but still miles from 8c+. You'll be wanting to be able to do most 8b+ relatively quickly if you're 8c+ fit. You'll be regularly bouldering 8A, probably be capable of 8B and you'll be doing 8a route with little to no pump. And even then... the big boy will be one hell of a battle and will land you firmly among the best UK sport climbers in history according to Remus. https://climbing-history.org/list/1/strong-british-male-route-climbers

But if you get there. My hat is firmly off to you!

Good luck!

I would also add never forget everything has to come together.The training and also creating  opportunity to go out there to try hard on rts this involves sacrifice possibly if you have highly ambitious long term goals.Long term  plans will involve such things as assessing what you might have to give up to get to where you want to go. Then you have to plan how to act on this.Then you have actually commit to executing the plan acknowledging that even with ultimate failure that the process was worth it and has made you mentally stronger hopefully ! 

Amen. I bolted a route in 2007 I'd given up on... until last year when Mat Wright made the second ascent. On Friday I fell off the last hard move before a kneebar rest and an easy finish I've never fallen off to the chains. It was all but in the bag.

For me this is now the hardest part. Driving 50 mins each way and managing the crushing weight of expectation with time pressure of seepage in November.

My plans for the next five weeks all revolve around the redpoint. And there's no guarantee of success. It's a real mental battle.

The idea that Sav isn't interested is really funny. When he first arrived on UKC I was appalled with his treatment, given what looked obvious to me then (and by now is blindingly so); and I was determined to meet him. He was almost exactly as I expected. I've climbed with him twice so far and won't ever forget those joyful days. As a bonus I've met several other climbers who also had a memorable and happy time meeting Sav.

Best of luck.

I am interested.

Sav

That’s good to hear. Even if (I hope not) top roping a mod is the pinnacle of Sav’s climbing career it proves continuing encouragement is worth the effort.

Oh. I never knew that.

Thanks for the information. It is all very interesting. 

Sav 

You mentioned injury. I have had three falls due to indoor bouldering and two of ended up with the same knee being injured, after I recovered from I went back to climbing.

In regards to the sent project in my log book, I did that as a sign of friendship but also commitment to the route.

Sav

I’m not sure what you mean.

Again, not sure what you mean.

I not sure what a “social” is. I assume it’s a meet and climb with other people. Sounds fun.

I think you might at first want to focus on slabs get good with footwork.

I hope it goes well and you get some problems ticked.

Sounds a bit too hard to be honest. Maybe occasionally after you feel you’ve mastered F4s and F5s.

I never cared how hard people climb as long as they enjoyed our climbing and were enthusiastic about climbing in general; being knowledgeable is a big bonus. Sav has all those characteristics 'in spades'. I've climbed with a huge range of climbers from some of the best in the UK to someone who was chuffed to lead their only trad route:  Martello Cracks.

Hi.

It is all to do with the lady from the Yoga class.

Do they belong here or the thread about the Vinyasa Flow Yoga?

That is what a social is. There are great fun! Two if the ones I attend have WatsApp groups. I have only done to board socials.

I mainly climb slabs in the roped climbing socials and I did two F4+ slabs last time. My footwork was a bit sloppy but I used slab climbing and a game to improve it.

Me too.

Before my fall at WestWays I was up to toproping F5 and did my first vertical F5.

Thanks

Sav

The fact that you are top roping F4s and F5s is very encouraging to hear.

Sounds like you are not as far off track as I’d feared you might be.

Stick with it.

When you can manage 8 clean top ropes of F4s and F5s in a session then it’ll be time to have sessions with F4 leading and F6a top ropes.

My 1st lead at Foundry - which was unsupervised - was an F4+ on a vertical wall. I kept my feet high and arms straight. Never back clipped or Z clipped.

F4+ lead on vert! That’s great. Vert terrain is certainly more challenging than slabs, but it sounds like you know what you are doing by keeping straight arms etc.

Did you manage to climb it clean or did you need a rest or two on the rope?

As far as I can remember I did it clean and I warmed up before the route with a variety of things. I even used a campus board for 1-3 lock offs and recruitment. It is all in my D-LOG.

Thank you 

Sav

Thanks.

I like your approach. Strength is something that I am not lucking. I don't drink alcohol and I supplement with glucosamine-chondrotin and Vitamin D in the morning. In the weekends I have a bit if dark chocolate after dinner. I have been told that coffee can boost testosterone and I do enjoy drinking it.I have never smoked in my life and will never start. 

At the moment I am not working and I working to get my CWI assessment done and then Foundation Coach assessment.

Sav

Thanks you very much. I am glad you enjoyed are climbing days and I am looking forward to more of them and our training in Nottingham. Who have you met that I know? Have you climbed with Deacon? I know we met with Buxton Coffee Lover.