UKC

Evening all,

hope everyone is healthy and happy!

I need new tyres for my car and heading to Bavaria over Christmas.

I’m loathed at the moment to buy winter tyres because the German rules state I can still use M and S tyres until the end of next year.

So long story short, any recommendations for said tyres and while we’re at it, decent snow chains for 16 inch wheels.

Thanks,

Den 

In reply to Denni:

Worth getting proper winter tyres full stop IMO, legislation aside. They function better in cold conditions, and the standards for M+S tyres are quite low. So while your tyres may meet the rules, they may also not be the best option for actual practical use. For example, where I live winter tyres are not mandatory, but winter features lots of ice and temps which rarely go above 5C. I have winter tyres, as do many other people, even though M+S or “all season” tyres are 100% legal all winter.

I’ve got a set of Nokian WR Snowproof. For the 10 minutes I’ve used them (it’s only dropped below 7C in the last few days here) they seem really good. Not tested in proper snow yet, but was recommended them by a couple of people who drive in proper snow a lot. To add here - my summer tyres are 16”, but winter tyres are 15” (with more sidewall for the same radius). Worth checking the compatibility of your car, as smaller wheels are obviously cheaper.

In reply to Denni:

Buy winter tyres, period.

I ran Michelin Alpins for several winters and drove around snowy roads in the Highlands without drama. I never got stuck and more importantly than getting me moving, I could stop and change direction which any number of normal tyred cars couldn't. And on a fabled snowphobic BMW.

Have a read of reviews, it's not rocket science. All the big manufacturers (Continental, Dunlop, etc) do them and lesser known brands like Nokian do some good ones. Look at blackcircles online. 

In reply to Denni:

M&S are out from 2024 but "Alpine" M&S are the replacement all-year tyre. I live in Bavaria and use them on both our cars, haven't seen snow at Christmas since 2010.

In reply to 65:

In the past I have run these on my van, total game changer. My transit van was unstoppable, not quite as good on my Renault traffic van as they were on the transit though (not the old tyres swapped over, a new set for the new van) 

In reply to Denni:

IIRC M & S markings have no actual standard, it just means it's a chunky tread that the manufacturer thinks should be better in mud and snow

If you want to compromise there are numerous 'all season' tyres on the market (Goodyear Vector and Michelin Cross Climate seem popular on UKC). These have the  3PMSF (Three Peak Mountain Snow Flake) marking which is an EU standard for traction in winter conditions.

I run vectors all year round and they pretty much feel like a normal tyre, but do grip much better in low temperatures and snow.

In reply to Denni: what car is it for ? I may have sone wi tee tyres and rims you can have .

In reply to Denni:

You can get all season tyres with the required mountain snowflake accreditation for use after next year... Might make sense just to get them and not have to worry about swapping them over twice a year.

I have goodyear vector 4seasons on my car and no complaints. 

If you do high mileages in summer it might make sense to get separate summer and winter (or even summer and mountain snowflake all-seasons), as apparently they do wear a bit better and have slightly better grip and wet weather performance. That only applies to premium brands though - budget summer tyres generally still have worse performance than premium brand all seasons iirc.

This youtube channel has a bunch of reviews which might be interesting:  youtube.com/watch?v=8K8ThRGNaoM&

In reply to AukWalk:

Surely by doing this you get increased wear in the summer, actually upping your overall tyre bill? 

In reply to ianstevens:

I thought that and for years put them on in November and took them off after returning from the Alps just after Easter. With covid limiting travel I didn't bother changing and they have been on ever since. We only do about 15-18k in a normal year, so I wouldn't be sure of the better option if I was doing double that. They are also quite handy on muddy campsites in the summer

In reply to ianstevens:

They do wear a bit worse in summer than the best-wearing summer tyres (based on some review, can't say myself yet), but not massively so I don't think, making it a marginal cost really. I suppose there might be more of an argument that although you'd be happy driving a summer tyre down to 2mm tread, you might want to replace an all season earlier than that to give more confidence in snow, which would reduce their effective life. 

The initial outlay is roughly half the price of having two full sets of tyres, and you save on at least one extra garage trip a year for swapping them over (assuming the other garage trip can be lined up with mot&service). Also don't have to find somewhere to store them or pay to have them stored.

Therefore I'd say the overall cost is actually lower. Although I'd imagine if you did a lot of mileage each year it might be more attractive to get separate tyres because you'll be going into the garage multiple times a year for servicing anyway, and the number of changes per tyre lifespan will be lower.

There may be an impact on fuel efficiency too, no idea which option would be better for fuel efficiency or how large an impact it would actually be though! 

In reply to Denni:

M&S is a poor substitute for proper winter tyres, there is no real extra cost once you've got a second set of wheels to put them on. You can only drive on one set at a time! 

In reply to Denni:

 I’ve been looking at similar due to spending Christmas in Germany this year.

One thing I found with M+S tyres is that they are leaving until 2024, but there’s also a manufacture date requirement that they have to have been manufactured before a certain date (can’t find it now unfortunately).

We got 2 CrossClimate all season tyres and are keeping an eye on the weather. Might change the other M+S tyres too if it’s looking like there might be ice/snow. I’ma bit reluctant to though given they were only fired this year…

In reply to AukWalk: I've always swapped my wheels+tyres myself.  You need a jack and a spanner, but once you've done it once or twice you can flip 4 corners in under an hour, and you get good at changing wheels for when you need to do it 'in the field'.  It's certainly no reason not to have separate sets as 'its too much trouble changing.'

In reply to ExiledScot:

However the downside of winter tyres is the wear is much higher than summer tyres, the handling worse, braking distances longer, noisy and often they are speed restricted (in Germany at least). All-year tyres are better all round except in rare snow conditions.

The tyre industry in Germany say that now all-year tyres now outsell winter tyres and  soon snow tyres will be a rarity, it just isn't snowy enough. I used to change and some winters the tyres never touched one snowflake, all they did was wore out.

The downside from moving away from regularly changing over however is that instead of a mechanic/trained tyre fitter seeing the condition of the mechanical gubbins under the car every six months it's only when the car is serviced or goes for an MOT test (which here is every two years).

In reply to James Malloch:

Do you currently have mixed Cross climates and M+S tyres on the same vehicle? Quite a few tyre fitters would refuse to do that.

Assuming the cross climates are on the front for traction (assuming FWD), just watch out for the back end letting go in icy conditions.

In reply to Denni:

I've got Michelin Cross Climate on my car - they were on offer when I needed a 3 new tyres, so got a full set. They're much better in the wet than the Falken Ziex they replaced, but were disappointing in the little snow we did have a couple of years ago.

A mate of mine lives in Baden-Württemberg, next to Bavaria, and has full winter tyres, if that helps.

Regarding snow chains, probably better to get them at whatever supermarket you pass when you get near - they'll be cheaper and, if you don't use them, you can return them on the way home.

In reply to Denni:

As far as chains go - if it's a once in a blue moon requirement, then continental supermarket.  If it's going to be a regular thing, then some of the quick fit cable/auto-adjust ones are well worth having (ie. up and down a steep hill every day) .  There's nothing quite like the misery of trying to fit basic chains in a frozen rutted layby/roadside in the dark when it's snowing. 

This is also where argon freezer gloves come into their own, as does a small garden trowel or paint scraper for digging frozen ice and snow out of the wheel arches

In reply to wbo2:

Fair enough, but the time, effort, and storage space are still factors and if you want to do that then you need to buy a second set of rims too, which adds even more upfront cost. 

In reply to Ridge:

Qwik Fit did it. CrossClimates are on the back (apparently the latest advice is for newer tyres to go on the rear, though we are a FWD van).

If it’s looking like bad weather before we go I think we will change the front too…

In reply to Ridge: Cross climates are M&S effectively

Time and effort - 1 hour every 6 months.  I can live with that.  Yes, they live in my garage, in the corner.  

In reply to wbo2:

The Cross Climate has no resemblance to an M&S tyre! Even the SUV version is only for light off-road.

In reply to Denni:

I got a bmw eight years ago and sure enough, first time out with a bit of frost on the ground it became a psycho to drive. Bought a set of highish profile Goodyear winter tyres (on 16 inch rims) which have gone on for about 3 months each year. The car has done 110, 000 miles with me so the Goodyears have probably 20-25000 miles up; they’re not completely done yet although I’ll probably buy a couple of new ones this year. The car is relaxed and unstoppable (in the way you’d want it to be) in snow and ice. My 2p’s worth is that they were a great long term purchase.

Theyve also meant that the horribly expensive run flat summer 18 inchers only get 9 months’ wear each year. I’d certainly do the same again.

In reply to colinakmc:

Tis all a bit confused! The OP lives on the south coast so anything round a black will do but is going to Bavaria which is a big place, up in the mountains is different to visitin Nurnberg Christmas market where again anything will do, there's flat bit's with little snow and pointy bits with some! And the German "rules" are deliberately vague (legally it's called "situational"). You can run any legal tyre anywhere, only if the police decide you are impeding the traffic or a danger can they ticket you, if it isn't snowy, icy etc then they have nothing to say. The fine is less than the cost of one tyre. If they are only going once then don't bother and take care. I've also carried snow chains for 30 years and never opened the packaging, if it's bad I stay where I am, there will be a snowplough along soon enough.

Eight year old winter tyres are effectively crap, eight years is well past best-before date.

In reply to Ridge:

Never been a problem for me. I got a pair of Cross Climates on the front of my old car during Beast from the East winter, and they worked fine. I later got a full set, but even in a lot of snow it didn't seem any different. If you are being silly it's easy enough to make the back spin out even with four studded tyres like I had in winter in Finland. But driving sensibly with two Cross Climates I've had no problem.

I currently have two Goodyear Vectors on the front of my current car, but only go them in July after a puncture wrecked one of the previous ones. I will get a pair for the back soonish as the current ones need replacing, but don't feel a huge rush. Haven't used the Goodyears in snow or frost yet though. Hoping they are as good as the Michelins.

In reply to AukWalk:

Agree with a lot of this. For me it's more about security when driving, winter tyres feel infinitely safer and I can afford a second set of wheels and tyres. Rest I was simply musing about.

Except - It's like a 30 min job to swap the wheels over yourself, definitely does not necessitate a garage trip!!

In reply to TobyA:

Mrs 65 had Goodyear winters on an Octavia while I had Michelin Alpins on a BMW. The Michelins were noticeably better, though admittedly the two cars hardly present an even match. The BMW had the edge going up steep hills but the Skoda was better starting off on the flat. Steering and stopping were notably better with the Michelins. The Goodyears weren't rubbish though, just not as good as the Michelins, and the Goodyears were significantly cheaper.

I've got Conti Crossclimates on my car now as I don't really have the space for a spare set of wheels. I've only used it once on proper snowed up roads and there was no drama, but the car does have 4wd and LSDs. I did a brake test on a snowed up road, they slid a bit but worked fine. They're surprisingly good on waterlogged grass.

In reply to jimtitt:

My winter tyres are limited to 210km/h, if that’s a problem for you then fair play you drive a lot quicker than I do. 

In reply to Denni:

I was using BF goodrich KO2 all terrains but I switched to General Grabber AT3s a couple of years ago. Both are 3pmsf marked, both handle really well on tarmac, mud, snow, icy roads etc and both are rated to 120mph which is about 40mph more than the car's capabilities. 

In reply to jimtitt:

They certainly weren’t performing like new last winter (when we had very little frost or snow tbh) but the car is still more drivable than on its wide summer tyres. I haven’t had many signs that the rubber has gone “off” - perhaps storing them in the dark helps - but I suspect a foot of snow would defeat them, though. (Used to be its party trick, just chugging off with the front bumper pushing snow aside)

The main point I was making was that at least in winter, there need be no concern about excess tyre wear. Over the piece they’ve probably saved me money and in bad conditions journeys are a much calmer experience. 

In reply to jimtitt: Do you know what M&S is Jim, to not be very subtle.? (I'd be very surprised if you don't).  

The thing is M&S marked, or at least was .  But that's not an official cert marking so it also has the official cert.

In reply to wbo2:

A British chain store?

In reply to Denni:

Living up the Dales and driving a lot of farm tracks I run All Season 12 months per year.

I did do the swapping over summer to winter - it isn't worth it in England. 

Summer tyres had the occasion twitch in what snow we get but never stuck.

Winter tyres not so good on wet summer roads.

All season cope well with all - compromise but a good one. What they do do is cope with the leaf mould covered autumn roads better than summer or winter tyres