UKC

I’ve found there is a big discrepancy with indoor bouldering and lead climbing grades compared to outdoor grades. Bouldering at the Depot for example appear to be way overgraded compared to outdoors but I find indoor lead climbing often undergraded. Is it just me?

In reply to Christheclimber:

Yes, indoor bouldering grades are way softer than outdoor, this is deliberate so as to provide more incremental difficulty levels. It’s all explained here https://www.climbing.com/skills/bouldering-grades-gym-versus-outside/ 

Also, other than a couple of walls I generally find indoor lead grades to be softer than outdoor.  Not by much, and it seems my “hardest” ascents are all indoor rather than out. But then I climb more indoor than out so that makes sense!

In reply to Iamgregp:

I suspect it depends on your natural proclivities / strengths.  As someone who is relatively old and non-bouncy, and likes static reaches between crimps, I've always climbed harder outdoors than indoors.  Back when I was bouldering quite well outdoors, regularly climbing F7B+/7Cs, I never, ever managed a "Yellow" (V7 / F7Bish) at the local Depot, and found most of the Purples (V5-7) too hard.  And, my hardest indoor route ever is f7a+ (and less than that at the old Leeds Wall), and I've on-sighted a decent number of f7c-7c+'s abroad, and climbed that grade often enough "second go" in the UK.

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:

Yes absolutely. Preferred styles and strengths certainly play into this. 

In reply to Iamgregp:

I’m the opposite my hardest ascents of routes are outdoors rather than indoors.

In reply to Christheclimber:

It seems to be quite dependant on the wall's setting. I find lead routes in Sheffield to be a lot harder than those at Harrogate, with outdoor on average sitting somewhere in the middle.

Outdoor bouldering is definitely harder than indoor.

In reply to Iamgregp:

I personally think the font grade ought to be used so in the case of the depot the white circuit =3 to.4 blue circuit =4+ to 5 the black circuit 5+ to 6a+ red circuit =6b to 6c.Doesnt have to be 100% exact just needs to give an honest grade.A climber knows where they are on the progression ladder then.

In reply to Christheclimber:

Indoor routes or problems favour strength, real rock usually favours skill (technique and experience). The only benefit of indoor grades is to calibrate your indoor ability, plan a training session and hopefully to measure your improvement. There is little point in trying to correlate your indoor and outdoor grades

In reply to racodemisa:

I think depot white is about f1 to f3; blue f2 to an occasional f4; black is f3 to an occasional f5+; red f5 to probably f6b (I can rarely climb that hard any more)....all in YMC guide grade terms... for font grades in font subtract a number (or subtract two for the equivalent of very polished problems in font). All walls should be using UK adapted font grades IMHO these days as you have a clear honest grade range from beginners to expert. Making up bogus V grades for lower grade circuits makes the outdoor transition harder and more risky.

In reply to kevin stephens:

That may well be true for badly set problems but it's easily possible to test any outdoor skills with modern hold and wall design. Indoor and outdoor grades could and should match style for style.

In reply to Offwidth:

i think you’re spot on with the grades there…..however the Depot reds and up (and some blacks occasionally) can be a specific ‘Depot’ type of climbing. Definitely favour strength over tech, and the Depot devotees then get shut down at the Works.

So, in some ways it mirrors the outdoors remarkably well. We all get lulled into our false sense of security at crag x, then get can’t even do the starts at crag y.

In reply to Offwidth: I can’t agree on that. The holds on any indoor problem or route are defined. Real rock often gives you lots more choice on which holds to use, how to use them, whether to use the obvious foothold or the less obvious smear that is more optimally positioned. The answer in each case will often be different for different climbers. I believe this lack of ability to read the rock and adapt is one of the main reasons that some people find outdoor grades harder than indoor grades

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Yeah, that is a familiar situation. When the Unit opened, friends that learnt how to climb at the Nottingham Depot were constantly commenting on how much of a sandbag it was. Meanwhile, I could climb two grades harder at the Unit than at the Depot, having learnt how to climb at NCC when Dan and Loz were the main setters.

In reply to kevin stephens:

It's possible to set almost anything these days so the fact some walls feel very different from the range of problems outdoors (whatever that means, as different rock types give different ranges of styles) is simply a choice. The wall where I did most of my early indoor climbing (NCC) had gritty paint and small features specifically to be a closer match to an outdoor feel and grades were deliberately a tad tougher than outdoors. I agree with Alkis and Paul.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria: I agree with you on that. It’s interesting to find that for me the Depot pinks are no harder than the blacks, but more technical. Relative lack of strength and currently being a bit over weight are my limitations rather than technique (partly from watching others on the same moves). I’m regularly working moves on the fingery circuit board loops that are too hard for me and this is already paying dividends so hopefully be lapping the reds before too long. Having said that I’m not motivated at all by achieving a particular indoor grade other than a progression in strength and endurance to help me to climb harder routes on real rock. I can’t boulder outdoors due to a glass ankle

In reply to Alkis:

I think it’s the difference between the chains and the independents. I’m going to get some last sessions in at the Unit and the Works before we move house. We will however be moving closer to Eden Rock, all three are tremendous and I guess the difference must be techy 

In reply to Alkis:

Very familiar story - I mentioned “a couple of exceptions” in my original post as although I find most indoor walls to be softer than outdoor, there’s an exception to every rule!

The wall at Foyleside Derry I find very hard in the grade. Not to give it the biggun, but I can’t remember the last time I didn’t onsight a 6b+ lead route, indoors or out. They’ve got one there I could barely even get to the top of this Xmas, let alone onsight. Easily 7a at any of the London walls I climb at. They’ve got 6a+ there that would be 6b+ at The Castle etc…. I’m not complaining mind, it’s a fantastic wall with some brilliant setting and is cheap as chips, you just have to recalibrate your mind a bit!

As I said to someone at the time, if there weren’t grade discrepancies what would we ever talk about?!

In reply to kevin stephens:

Indoor routes or problems favour strength, real rock usually favours skill (technique and experience).

Oh I get that, I'm a weak old man but can often cheat my way up harder stuff outdoors than in, through a bit of cunning. "Can I pull on that coloured blob?" isn't as nuanced as trying out the beta on different smears and dibs and getting your weight just so. Terms and conditions apply, your mileage may vary, etc.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Indeed!

On a related note, if anyone wants their ego gently stroked, just head to Parthian Harrogate Climbing Centre, most routes are overgraded by nearly an entire numerical grade, and I am not exaggerating. :-P

In reply to Alkis:

On my way. 

In reply to Offwidth:I find it pretty tricky assessing problem difficulties through a  filter of pure technicality.The V grade was developed at hueco a steep beta intensive area and the grading was developed as an overall guage of difficulty.It included technicality but also included elements like  power endurance as a lot of the problems are more than 8 hand moves and are steep. This grading works well for benchmarking individual  problems imo.Its less useful for grading circuits at easier levels than FB 5 or easier as the grading system  wasn't developed for this.In Spain these very easy circuits (so the green white and blue at the depot are just denoted as beginners circuits.ie they don't have grades).

In reply to racodemisa:

As do many. Some of us have worked hard over the decades for lower grade boulderers putting that right.

Im aware of the history but that's no different to any bouldering grade system. Bouldering grades are the difficulty of doing a problem once the easiest method is worked out (without looking at risk). It's equivalent to a redpoint sport grade.

There is simply nothing about V grades that couldn't apply to lower grade problems if we didn't have the problem that V0 roughly aligned to f5. We even invented a U grade system to link to Peak bouldering ('U' for under 'V') to match the f1 to f4 range. These days I prefer font grades, especially with the alignment to UK tech grades as used in the YMC grit guides (that we helped on). The fact that the easiest Spanish circuits are not graded doesn't mean they can't be.

In reply to Offwidthin 

In 1990 when the V grade was defined VO was meant to be the crux of a 5.9 (so about 5+/ 6a in french sport grading terms)V2 ought to be about 11a (or the crux of a 6c in sport climbing terms) etc etc

In reply to Christheclimber:

Interesting first session on the splatter wall at the Depot today. Like the way you can climb/design your own problems and then tweak them.

In reply to racodemisa:

It was defined slightly earlier than that by 'The Verm' for a guidebook (his publisher insisted on grades) and I doubt many people would regard his V0 then as a standard 5.9 crux.

In reply to Offwidth:

The original hueco guide was written by john Sherman and came out in 1990/1.i went there in 1986 and 1991.There was no written guide in 1986.In the 1991 guide 'Verm' (Sherman)wrote an intro into that guide explaining why he wanted to create the new grades versus the old B1..B2 system.In this intro he stated that V1 ought to about 5.10 so about fb5/5+.

In reply to Offwidth:

I think places like the new Armley Depot have a lot more gritlike climbing; lots of fridge-hugging, big slaps, trick moves, gimmicky starts, corners/grooves and a marked reduction in the proportion of walls that overhang. Personally I'm not a fan - I'd rather go to a wall with a range of styles. Pulling hard on small holds in steep terrain is a pretty useful skill once you get away from Peak/Yorks grit but seems very out of fashion in indoor walls nowadays.

WRT grades, I used to think indoor bouldering walls were super overgraded but they're not as bad when you compare them to non-grit or quarried grit bouldering (i.e. stuff with actual holds). Indoor routes are nails though - outdoor routes tend to be much more midget friendly.