UKC

When hanging a kayaker's dry bag of loose flaked static rope from a harness, for a fixed anchor sea cliff abseil:

1) What's the best way to attach and hang the bag from the harness?

2) Anything else to watch out for, for either comfort or safety?

I know the ins and outs of setting up and equalising the anchor, knotting the lower end of the rope, protecting it where it goes over the edge, etc. It's just the particular method of having the rope unspool from the bag, rather than throwing it down, that is new to me. I've seen it done and there seem to be a few advantages (eg not chucking the end of the rope in the sea; not risking a falling loose block cutting the rope) - I just want to know if there's anything to watch out for with this method. Thanks in advance.

I used to do this loads when I lived down South and climbed almost only at abseil approach sea cliffs. 

We used a blue Ikea bag and then upgraded to a small Petzl caving bag. For short ropes I used to use my gear loop to hang the bag but would always use belay loop with big heavy ropes. With an extended abseil setup the belay plate is far away enough from a bag hanging on the belay loop to feed rope easily. 

In the end, after catching the bag on too many overhands whilst pulling the rope up, I gave up on this method and went for the 'saddle bag' approach, using coils of rope held by a 60cm quickdraw on my gear loop. This has all the benefits of not dropping the rope in the sea etc but doesn't require any extra kit, and you can leave the rope knot free and ready to pull up once you've abseiled. 

Am not sure whether I can be of help to you. But here goes. 

Pretty much my standard modus operandi is to ab on sea-cliffs with the rope in a bag. But I'm doing it for new routing. And I'm working top-down, cleaning as I go. So I don't want the rope below me if I'm levering loose blocks off. 

For a start I don't like having the bag hanging from my harness. In fact that's the last thing I want. I chuck it down a bit (but always in sight), ab, do so again. I always want it in sight.

When I can see the bottom of the crag and I think there's no more loose rock to clean, then I start chucking it down more. Ideally I want it about 10 feet from the deck - so it's a barrier between me and the deck. When I get there I'll navigate those last 10 feet carefully. But I still don't want to have the rope/bag on my harness if I can avoid it. (Don't want to gain speed.)

Am not sure if this helps. Would experiment on relatively friendly terrain before going into more challenging venues. 

mick 

Luca is right, the choice is saddleback or rope bag.

Saddlebag is great for shorter descents

Rope bag works nicely if you have a LOT of rope, or rigging multiple pitches worth of descent. (Or heavy equipment). When I use a bag I hang it below me on a 60 or 120 sling from my belay loop

One thing about both, is the weight of the dead rope on the descender doesn't vary as you descend as it's not hanging down, so the abseil/descender device friction at top and bottom of the descent is about the same. Personally I like the Petzl Frieno krab for big descents 

Enjoy...

EDIT: if it's in a bag, the risk of unexpectedly getting to the end of the rope is increased as the rope is in the bag out of sight. ALWAYS tie a knot in the end, or better tie that knot as a fig of 8 and clip the rope/tackle bag with the end so you can't lose that either. Obligatory rope/bag pic attached

When I'm caving I have the rope flaked in a tackle bag hanging from my harness on its tether a metre or so below me, pulling them up afterwards can be a faff if the bag snags, I'll usually climb the rope and pull up the rope with the bag attached to the end every so often to try and avoid snagging but that doesn't work if you've abbed in to a sea cliff.

Adapting caving techniques is the answer. 

If you haven't already got a bag, get a Petzl Classique 22 L. These are built out of something similar to PVC and have welded seams and no stitching. Very strong and robust and they do not hold any water in the fabric at all so no worries about washing the salt out. Also has no metal parts except for the stainless spring in the toggle. They carry well either with the rucksack-like straps or just as a sausage laid on top of your climbing sack like a tent. They will hold 100m of 9mm static or about 80m of well packed 10mm. Also very light.

To pack the rope, I'd tie the bottom of the rope to the bag with a fig 8. A proper knot to serve as a stopper and to stop the bag blowing away at the base. The rope itself I make a small set of short saddle coils (say 50cm long, using 4-5m of rope) and then stuff them in, repeat until all the rope is in. For transport, tie the top of the rope to the bag too. This stops you grabbing the end from under another bit of the rope and creating a knot. 

I'm right handed so clip the bag top on my right hip gear loop. The rope just feeds as you descend. Using it like this it's absolutely essential that the rope has a knot at the end. No warning when/if you hit the end. It will just fly through the plate. This is best if you have feet against the rock. If you're free-hanging you can drop the rope bag down a metre on it's tether. Clipping it to your belay loop helps you stay upright. 

Photo below shows me using this setup to abseil in to take photos on Lundy. Rope bag on right hip. Camera bag under right arm. Lanyard / gear on the left. 

For climbing, I'd carry the rope(s) on my back. The bag doesn't interfere with that. 

Cheers for the tips - got a trip to Pembroke over Easter and will definitely experiment on something not too knarly first. I'm not new routing or cleaning routes, it's about relatively quick descent without chucking the rope ... I think in this instance hanging the bag from the harness is probably OK (unless I'm missing something?)

For caving I do the trick of having a karabiner attached to my helmet strap under your chin, you can then pay the rope into the bag very quickly using both hands with no need to collect coils and stuff them in. Or you can do it off your harness 

youtube.com/watch?v=cYqwsZZNEHA&

The free-hanging bag is generally fine. Where it sometimes goes wrong is if the bag starts to spin. If you're abseiling down a slab the bag will be rubbing against the wall. If you step to the left or the right to get the right line, the bag rotates like a wheel and the rope coming out of it twists around the tether between your harness and the bag. That's the main reason I switched to the hip (same situation, but caving on non-vertical pitches). 

Thanks. I'm aiming to make a 20L dry bag I've got for kayaking serve the purpose, rather than invest in a separate cavers' bag. It's one of these: https://www.onbuy.com/gb/conwy-kayak-beach-river-lake-waterproof-strong-dur...

And yes - a knot at the end of the rope, no question.

Can'tremember exactly how I did it decades ago but I hung the bag from a spare krab on the clip in hole of the fig 8 I was abbing with. It took the weight of my harness tp a great extent.

I've tried to use the saddle bag approch as you describe (I think) but the flaked coils always seem to get horribly tangled the loops seem to thread through each other. It could well be I'm just incompetent but I was wondering if I was missing something/this happened to anyone else?

Try flaking the loops in decreasing length, so the shortest loops come off first. 

I first saw this only about 18 months or so ago and now use it all the time. Super useful

This is maybe a daft question, but bear with me ... if you hang it from the belay loop with a sling, does the sling with bag hang down between your legs (possible discomfort in the groin area?) or over your hip on one side (possibly pulling you off balance?)

Thanks - yes I wondered if there might be a difference on slabs.

If the rope bag is  heavy, you could try a Y hang. Means that all the rope weight is on the abseil device and the level of the bag could be fixed at an optimal height.

I'd imagine the key points have been covered.

Make sure there's a knot in the end or it's tied into the bottom of the bag before you flake the rope in.

If it's hanging from a gear loop, take the other stuff off that loop, you don't want to lose it all into the sea if the bag snags and breaks the loop.

If the bag is attached to a bandolier, make sure it can't hang you if the bag snags.

If the ground isn't steep you can just toss it ahead of you from ledge to ledge.

Be aware there will be much less friction without the weight of the rope to help you out. You might want to choose higher friction device or to add an improvised brake (lots of options, I'd usually add a second krab or just take a turn around my leg). Especially on a skinny single, long steep abs without the rope weight to help can be absolutely exhausting to control.

jk

Your dry bag won't last long as a dry bag, especially somewhere spiky like Pembroke, I use an old cheap kids gym bag.

Clip the bag to a sling on your belay loop, this keeps your centre of gravity in its normal place.

Agree with Scott. Your dry bag and single strap isn't strong enough to withstand being loaded with rope and lowered down or hauled up a cliff repeatedly. It simply won't last long. Either do as Scott suggests, or get yourself a caving rope bag. Caving bags are heavy duty and have been designed and manufactured to withstand endless abuse while being hauled up pitches underground. 

I did this with a 200m meter rope and ended up just using a really big rucksack on my back and doing a hell of a lot of ab exercise! Having it hanging from my harness was too much of a pain and too awkward. I've not done this a lot though, so not speaking from a position of great experience. Whether you put it on your back or your harnesses belay loop may depend a bit on the angle of the cliff too - if it's a slab then having it hanging under you could be problematic.

I stuffed the rope hand over hand into the sack so it would come out nicely - if you coil it and dump it in the sack, it's never coming out properly at all, it will for certain knot up within a very short length of time. The downside of the hand-over-hand stuffing is that it takes absolutely ages.

Depending on how long your rope is, another option is just to coil it and put it over your shoulders - if it's 50m or less then taking one or two coils at a time off your shoulders is convenient enough and it's not too cumbersome. And you don't have to have the sack with you.

I'd highly recommend taking a rack of gear on your harness and every 10 metres or so, put a bomber bit of gear in, clip into it, take out a little rope, clove hitch the rope to the piece, then unweight the piece and continue on with the abseil. This way you have regular "mini anchors" and after you have gone 50 or 100 metres down, you don't have to worry so much about the rope dislodging blocks from miles above or starting to rub where you wouldn't expect it to, especially if you are swinging around a bit to the sides looking for the best line. The downside is that it takes time and is takes time again when you are taking them out on the way back up.

Take a wire brush, claw hammer and a small crowbar with you if you are cleaning new lines - almost everything will come off with the claw of the claw hammer. If you can't get it off with the crowbar, it isn't coming off and you can leave it alone.

Put a knot in the end _every_ _time_!

And wear a helmet of course.

I hang the bag between my legs, I find a full bag hanging over either leg to be more uncomfortable, don't get me wrong it certainly isn't the most comfortable thing you can do. Most of the weight of the bag runs through the loop (or central maillon on a caving harness) and on to the rope above.

The way I "reduce" this is by having two slings and a separate lap coil for each side of the rope.  Improves things a lot.

One way around this is to make sure each loop is slightly shorter than the last.

It does mean you need to start with long loops though, so if it's windy this can introduce more trouble than it saves.