UKC

(no. 5 in a series of dumb questions from someone picking up interests of several decades back!)

My old backpacking tent (Saunders something or other if I recall?) pitched fly first, which was fantastic if it was raining, or even if it wasn't - you could get the fly up, sit inside and have a brew, then sort the inner out at leisure, or even not at all on a warm night. All modern tents seem to be inner first with the poles as a sort of "exoskeleton" then cover with the fly, which seems pretty daft if it's p*ssing down with rain.

Am I missing something, do such tents exist, am I being overly-nostalgic, has climate change/Brexit/Nicola Sturgeon decreed that it will not rain at pitch time? Any recommendations (lightweight 1/2P tent for a 6 footer?)

There's lots of tents that can be left with the inner attached to the outer so it pitches in a one-er (with the inside protected by the fly while you put it up). 

I haven't bought a tent in years but have 2 that pitch in this way - Vango Banshee and Tarptent Notch. 

Tents more widely aimed at a US market (e.g. MSR) usually pitch inner first and fly over the top, potentially as it's appealing to campers in good clear weather to be able to put the fly only up and be protected from bugs, whilst still being basically out in the open. I've done this a few times and, whilst nice, it probably wasn't worth the couple of times I had to scramble about in the middle of the night to put the fly on whilst it rained. 

Lots of tents use external poles outside the flysheet and then the inner tent attached by toggles inside (and in many cases can be left to pitch as a single unit as Paul has suggested). 

Take a look at Hilleberg soulo, Vango banshee/nova/mirage, access expeditions tents etc. 

In fact I can't remember the last one I used that wasn't pitched fly first. 

Thanks both (but more contributors welcome) - the Hilleberg Soulo is reassuringly expensive isn't it...

Fjaellraven also outer-first, but not cheap

I know people on here rave about the all in one pitching tents, but I really don't get in with them.

My Vango Equinox has that many tension straps that it gets tangled and takes significantly longer to pitch if I'm also trying to control the shapeless mass of inner tent. Far far quicker and easier to get the outer up first and sort all the guys and peg tensioning, then clip the inner in afterwards. Also for folding and drying two separate parts are way easier to deal with - especially when wet, as you can then keep there inner totally dry.

Yes, my thoughts exactly

I'm using a hilleberg soulo for long distance bike packing in South America. Totally recommend. I've had it in all sorts of conditions and it's never disappointed. I'm just over six foot. 

Obviously hillebergs are crazy expensive, but if you can take the hit it's only really upfront cost. They really do last the miles and hold their value as well. I bought an Akto for £400 and after nine years of use sold it for £350. 

Other options not listed are vaude and macpac. Both decent, but not a notch on a hilleberg in my opinion... 

Inner first tents are far easier and faster to pitch (none of that crawling around inside dealing with fiddly toggles) and always seem much more stable and less flappy inside to me. Yes, the inner can get a bit damp, but done efficiently I rarely find it an issue.

Depends on the design. I find clipping the inner in place a lot easier than fighting to get the fly over the top of the erected inner. You have to crawl in and out of a tent anyway...

I also find outer first good when packing up in the rain; you can pack everything else away in shelter, and then take down the fly.

Obviously a matter of preference. I would never buy an outer first tent - I find them infuriating to put up!

Pitch in 1 is the easiest to put up. But outer 2nd seems to be way stronger in my experience as the inner has tension from the pole and so the outer can be tensioned over the structure even higher using the straps. Pitch in 1 means the inner is basically hanging in space. Choose your compromise 

Plenty of relatively cheap tunnels that are outer first. I have a Blacks own brand (Octave 3) that is my preferred tent at the moment (of, IIRC, nine...), but it's no longer available; three pole, nice porch, weighs 3kg, silnylon fly. I'd prefer a second vent at the tail, and would prefer simple arches to the 'Perpendicular style' peaked arches that seem to me to be a stress raiser. But the design is re-used in various guises; looks like Blacks are selling a variant under their 'OEX' brand, but obviously with a heavier fly fabric, and with mesh pole sleeves, as it's now 4.3kg...

https://www.blacks.co.uk/15985181/oex-coyote-iii-tent-15985181

Not sure I’d describe it as perfect for backpacking given its weight.  The OEX Phoxx range are very cheap and pretty sturdy, at least my Phoxx 2 has survived some relatively atrocious nights with only the guy lines (now replaced) being an issue.

I posted it as an example of the design... Always take Blacks' descriptions with a large bag of salt... It's a shame they binned the Octane range, as they were pretty reasonable tents.

Course commented was directed at the blacks sales pitch rather than your posting of it, sorry if unclear.

I have fly first, inner first and pitch all in one tents (some, including my husband, would say I have some kind of problem...)

The thing I like best about the inner first one is how taut it all is, leading to much less flapping in any wind. I am a light sleeper and even with earplugs, too much flapping leads to a terrible night's sleep. On the inner first/all in ones, the suspended inner will never be properly taut.

On the other hand both pitching and striking camp are better when you can keep everything dry.

My all in one tents are a Terra Nova Pioneer 2 (sturdy but heavier at around 2kg) and a Weschel Bella (slightly less sturdy as only one pole goes all the way to the ground but lighter at 1.3kg). I like them both, for different conditions. Though having used tents with clips for the poles rather than sleeves I've been a bit spoiled and sometimes get frustrated with threading/unthreading poles through sleeves on the Pioneer now (especially when the poles decide to uncouple inside the sleeve). This is more of a problem in very cold weather when your fingers won't work properly.

Yeah; two tensioned, interconnected, offset membranes provide a pretty sturdy structure.

Aaaargh...... 

At the moment I have to deal several times a week with DofE students that have pegged the fly out so tightly that they can't get the inner to fit!

FIt the poles, peg the corners loosely, fit the inner and then peg out properly and tighten guys. 

I don't 'see' how that would be possible with my tent.... although I'm always amazed at how badly many people pitch, so perhaps it's just that I'm obsessive at getting everything perfect to ensure maximum stability and even tension across the whole fly.

OK, so after all that, is Three Pebble Slab HVS or E1...er. sorry, wrong thread...

... change/Brexit/Nicola Sturgeon decreed that it will not rain at pitch time? Any recommendations (lightweight 1/2P tent for a 6 footer?)

absolutely nostalgic, must be many years since you could buy a tent for 1/2p and this 6 footer you speak of? Is that some kind of Boris nostalgia for pre 1972 measurements? Surely you want a tent for someone who identifies as being 1.83m 

Nonsense talk of tents where the inside goes up first is best left to foreigners in their hot dry countries, it's just wrong and you shouldn't encourage them by entertaining such talk

Wrong. Outside first is the work of the devil - you end up with your bum outside in the rain faffing around with an infinite number of toggles and clips. And then have fabric flapping in your face all night.

Of course with some tents eg Vango force 10 classics, you can do outer or inner pitch first. 
Arse in or out whilst pitching an option

Are you sure it was a tent you were putting up? To put up the inner of my outer-first tent, I get inside the spacious tent completely, since the inner is, unsurprisingly, contained entirely within the outer, and smaller than the outer... I think there are sixteen clips. Takes about two minutes.

But given that you need to be outside the inner to do the clips, it forces you to be in your hands and knees with your bum outside when clipping most of them. I suppose it might be ok if the porches are huge. All horribly awkward and contorted too.

With a bit of lateral thinking you can pitch an MSR Access like this - the poles hook into the outer so just do that first then trash about inside trying to get the inner in,.

I have a WC Zephyros and Helm 2, both inners are attached so you just put the poles in and peg it down. Go up really quickly with minimal faff. 

I am in the pitch as one camp. Definitely the most straightforward. Most of these can have the inners detached if you want to pitch separately. I never do though. 

I have a Terra Nova Laser comp. It has been a proper workhorse tent, it has well exceeded my longevity expectations from such a lightweight tent. I must have had it for almost 15 years now, it has done my ML with me and more DofE expeds than I could count. It is starting to show it's age now, but still got a few more years I reckon.

All my tents are pitch as one: Vaude Taurus UL, Tarptent Moment DW, Terra Nova and Trekkertent. 

All can go up in less than 5 minutes and are easily done by one person. I spend longer searching for nice flat, dry ground! 

Obviously if you actually pitch them in one then they will be quicker. But if pitched in two due to being taken down in two when wet or dewy in the morning or after separating to dry at home, I still maintain that they are horribly fiddly, especially with cold hands.

Also I really don't like the slack draping of the inner compared with the nice taut inner of an inner first tent.

The other non-negotiable thing when I buy a tent is that you lie parallel to the door, not with it by your head.

As is my usual m.o. then I’d point the interested reader to https://durstongear.com/product/x-mid-2-solid 

Can be pitched using either their adjustable Carbon fibre poles or a pair of trekking poles. Because of the shape of the inner tent you can get fully inside the fly to put it up if you have put the outer up first, or you can easily put up en bloc (which is what I always do unless it rained the night before and I separated the fly when packing up earlier in the morning). 
 

Additionally since the bathtub floor clips to the fly peg outs with elastic the inner tends to stay nicely tensioned. 

Historically my Macpac Minaret was fly first/en bloc pitch but separating the inner in the rain was a chore when packing and worse when pitching. 

Recent photo shows badly pitched X Mid as I may have left the pegs in the car - ahem  

b
 

That looks an awesome tent, but am I missing something, it comes from Canada?

Correct - Dan Durston is Canadian. The tents are made (as always) in the East, in the same factory that makes basically all of the world's more reliable tents. There is no UK distributor, so likely to get import duty charged in the UK - but it's a lottery if HMRC actually do or not. There are a fair few in the UK now looking at the Facebook photos!

They are distributed by Kaviso currently but I gather Durston will bring orders back in house as they grow. Historically the production runs have been hugely oversubscribed and sell out within minutes but as capacity increases at the factory they have actually caught up for at least some of the models!

I live in NZ and so never saw one in the flesh before purchase, but some email correspondence with Dan was really helpful in sorting out my choice and it was definitely a really good purchase (for reference I was also looking at the Stephensons Warmlite 2R and a couple of others). 

b

If a thing is worth doing it's worth doing well

couple of nato ponchos and bivvy bag(s) form an outer first design at very low cost.  use trees, wall or walking poles to form the ridge supports.

seriously though I think we have 3 tents from 4 person down to 2 (at a pinch) and they are all outer first and only the big one takes any time to put up (as it is intended for longer stays) Big one is Coleman and the other two Vango

Wild Country / Terra Nova Helm - bomber pitch in one tents. 

Also from a couple of Facebook groups, I've also read it is now much easier to order them. There seemed suddenly to be quite a few Durstons being sold unused or "only pitched once in the garden" in those facebook groups. Although then a lot of people moaning that sellers were trying to sell them for too much now you could order directly! And interesting study in supply, demand and equilibrium for any A level economics students out there who also like lightweight backpacking!

Yeah, there's been a bit of scalping going on for sure - as ever for items with high demand, just weird to see it happening to tents of all things. But then I guess it happened for loo roll a couple of years ago so shouldn't really be a surprise!

Ordering much easier these days. The Pro 2P is back in stock too for the next few weeks - the OP could go the whole hog and go for a 550g 2 man tent that goes up in one on account of being single skin.... just need to remortgage the house first! https://durstongear.com/product/x-mid-pro-2p

b