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4000er without glacier travel or crevasse rescue experience

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 bran335 10 May 2023

Hi all,

My climbing partner and I are hoping to do our first 4000er in the alps this summer, however, both coming from South Africa, our mountains don't get much snow or ice so we don't have prior glacier travel or crevasse rescue experience. 

We are both experienced in the mountains and have been rock climbing for over 15 years (we are 33 years). We are fit and don't have a problem with exposure. 


1. Are there 4000ers in the alps that are climbable without glacier travel or crevasse rescue experience? We're not looking at taking ski lifts high up and doing a short summit so preferably peaks with long walk ins.

2. Would Gran Paradiso be suitable for us? It seems there's some glacier walking and a relatively straightforward scramble at the end. Would our rock climbing experience suffice? 

Any recommendations or experience would be greatly appreciated! 

Thanks,

Brandon

Removed User 10 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

Matterhorn? You can 'walk in' to any peak!

Breithorn in the same area is a good intro to glaciers on a 4000m if you take the Kleine Matterhorn lift. The normal route is on snow but not much crevasse danger I don't think and a big track usually, though you would still want to be roped up obviously.

Post edited at 15:44
3
In reply to bran335:

We learnt crevasse rescue at age 19 using a combination of an instructional book and my parents apple tree.  I reckon with a bit of preparation at home you could get all the theory sorted before you go.  You'd need to practise walking in crampons, ice age arrest and have a play placing screws and hoisting each other out of crevasses somewhere safe but within a day or two I think you'd probably be ready to use these new skills rather than pick things that don't need them, hugely increasing your options.  If unsure (and if you can afford it) get a days tuition back home or a guide for a day once in the alps (or both).  We didn't but I think it would have sped up our learning process if we could have afforded it at the time.

 JLS 10 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

The Weissmies and Lagginhorn from Sass Grund are your best bet.

https://www.summitpost.org/lagginhorn/150308

https://www.summitpost.org/weissmies-se-ridge/651420

 tehmarks 10 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

If you're practically-minded, the concepts and systems involved in crevasse rescue aren't particularly complicated. You can even practise most of it (barring making an anchor) away from a glaciated environment.

You could maybe do some homework, reading and practice, and then either go and test out your knowledge on a real glacier, or book a day with a guide to consolidate it. Even if you limit yourself to routes with safe(r) glaciers, you'll open up many more options by having the ability.

 mcawle 10 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

Worth noting that crevasses aren't the only 'snowy' hazard - even rocky sections can get snow, verglas, etc. and so being able to move over such ground safely and potentially in crampons is important. Likewise with potentially placing gear in more snowy conditions.

Another aspect that you may/may not have experience in is moving together and/or simul-climbing, in areas where you might want to have a rope out and some gear in between you but it would take too long to pitch the whole route.

Also altitude sickness and acclimatisation are important considerations to be aware of even up to 4000m.

Depending on finances, it's possible to privately hire a guide to get some training on areas where you have gaps. They could cover glaciers, crevasse rescue, and other details like moving on snow/ice/rock in crampons and with an axe and in my experience can put together a custom programme for 2-3 days. Cheaper than doing a full course and with a better guide:client ratio i.e. you could get a guide dedicated to just the two of you.

You can send a general e-mail to the registered British Mountain Guides with your requirements and those interested/available can come back to you with a quote: https://www.bmg.org.uk/activity/alpinism/ (I'm sure there are similar options for French, Italian guides etc. but I'm not familiar).

The above notwithstanding, the best candidates I can think of for a 4000m walk in, nice rocky ridge, and no glacier are

  1. SSE ridge of the Weissmies in Switzerland, although worth noting it does have a short snow crest at the top (I think there is also a route up/down the SW ridge, Almageller Hut may have more info)
  2. W ridge i.e. normal route of the Lagginhorn, also Switzerland. There are some variations of this that cross what is left of the Lagginhorngletscher which I think is basically dry in summer but anyway I've heard that could be worth avoiding, i.e. just do the full ridge from the Weissmies Hut because of stonefall hazard etc.

Gran Paradiso... my understanding is that the route is less crevassed from the Vittoria Emmanuelle Hut compared with Chabod, but there can still be large crevasses and snow bridges on either route.

OP bran335 10 May 2023
In reply to Removed User:

Thanks! These were definitely two I've been considering, although it seemed like they're quite crowded routes which makes me think there might be better options. But a must do at somepoint

  

Removed User 10 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

Not sure how old you are, but I did a Conville course back in the day which was a relatively low-cost and excellent introduction to Alpinism and covered all the basics including a good amount on glacier travel.

As someone above pointed out above, crampons skills on mixed ground are not something to be ignored. Imagine getting caught out in a storm high up and having to retreat without the prerequisite skills in this area...

Post edited at 16:22
OP bran335 10 May 2023
In reply to JLS:

These look good.. Thanks!

OP bran335 10 May 2023
In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Thanks, yeah I've read a lot about it and it seems learnable at home, at least on a basic level. Although I'm starting to think doing a course is a good investment

OP bran335 10 May 2023
In reply to mcawle:

Thanks a lot for this. I've just emailed for a quote. 

In terms of altitude, we are factoring an acclimatisation period. I've done some climbing in the Dolomites, Swiss Alps and Picos, however, the highest we've been is 3500m. I imagine the additional 500-1000m makes a difference. 

We have done some simul climbing on trad routes back home, bit I'm sure it's different when in the snow/ice. 

Someone else also suggested Weissmies and  Lagginhorn so I'm looking more into that now. Seems reasonable.

In terms of footwear. What boots would be necessary? 

Thanks

 mcawle 10 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

Nice, yes the extra altitude can make a difference but also just knowing what to look out for/expect as it can affect someone differently over time and so on.

Boots - kind of depends on how far you want to take it/how much you want to invest for potential future/more technical things, and so on, but the obvious point is that getting the right fit is very crucial. Unfortunately not always that easy with mountaineering boots.

In the UK there used to be a concept of B1, B2, B3 boots where B1 will take strap-on crampons, B2 will be a bit stiffer and have a rear bail for what are often called semi-automatic crampons, and B3 are heaviest/warmest/stiffest and will take a fully automatic crampon.

For easier routes and potentially doing a bunch of walking in, I'd be thinking that a B2 boot would probably be a good compromise, something like https://www.lasportiva.com/en/trango-tower-gtx-man-black-21a999100n or https://www.scarpa.co.uk/mountain-boots/charmoz-hd/ - but there are other brands such as Aku, Zamberlan, Asolo, Lowa, and so on. Partnered with some semi-automatic crampons.

There is a great book that covers most of all of this (including gear, conditions, etc.) in a clear way that is well worth the investment if you can get hold of it, and even if you do end up hiring a guide it will be a big help in working out what you know/don't know and want to learn more about: "Alpine Mountaineering" by Bruce Goodlad.

 McHeath 10 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

Another vote for Saas Grund as a base (good campsite!). Lagginhorn and Weißmies have already been mentioned; on the opposite side of the valley there´s the Mischabel hut (the reaching of which is quite an expedition in itself). From it you can do the Ulrichshorn (ca. 3900m) to acclimatise, it´s an easy outing; then there´s the ridge to the Nadelhorn (4300m +), which is rock but also involves crossing the remains of a small glacier.

As others have said - make sure you get the feel of Alpine climbing on some lower stuff before you go for the 4000ers, and take time to thoroughly acclimatise. Move together whenever possible, be fast and safe, pay a lot of attention to the weather, get information at the hut on the evening before you start out.

Have fun, and let us know how you got on!

Post edited at 19:44
 Pero 10 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

The perceived wisdom is that you need to  be able to hoist an unconscious partner out of a crevasse in order to be safe in the Alps. I'm sceptical of that. It's a one in a million occurrence. Especially on the 4000ers, which are relatively busy.

Crevasses are a risk, of course, but the chance you'll need advanced rescue techniques is low. Many people on here will disagree with that, of course.

You definitely need to know how to avoid crevasse risk.  Also, rockfall is by far the greater danger. Especially with rampant climate change.

There are great mountains in that Alps that have little or no glacier travel:

Matterhorn, Weisshorn, Zinalrothorn, Dent Blanche, Schreckhorn. To name a few. That said, all these peaks may require climbing in crampons. That is not a one in a million!

If I were you I would practise that as that is something you are likely to need. 

 tehmarks 10 May 2023
In reply to Pero:

> The perceived wisdom is that you need to  be able to hoist an unconscious partner out of a crevasse in order to be safe in the Alps. I'm sceptical of that. It's a one in a million occurrence. Especially on the 4000ers, which are relatively busy.

I'd agree with that (in my very punter experience) - and I'd probably add that those people will probably still struggle to haul an unconscious partner out of a crevasse if the time ever comes. I heard it once said that the best sort of crevasse rescue technique around Chamonix is shouting loudly and waiting for someone to call the PGHM - and I don't think I'd  personally disagree with that advice in any area with other people around and a competent rescue service. Better to get the professionals on the task in the first instance rather than faffing about, discovering you can't actually get your mate out yourself, and then calling for help while they're slowly chilling to death on the other end of the rope.

(That's not to say "don't learn how because you can call the professionals" - because they'll obviously be zero use if they can't actually get to you)

 MG 11 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

> 1. Are there 4000ers in the alps that are climbable without glacier travel or crevasse rescue experience? We're not looking at taking ski lifts high up and doing a short summit so preferably peaks with long walk ins.

In addition to the above, consider Alphubel.  The lower glacier is almost dead although there are some quite steep icy slopes higher up.  Next door, Rimpfischorn from Tasch Alp only touches a glacier briefly.  A long way and quite remote feeling with a scrambly climb to finish.  Aiguille de Bionassay from the Durier hut also only has minimal glacier but is fairly full on in the respects.

> 2. Would Gran Paradiso be suitable for us? It seems there's some glacier walking and a relatively straightforward scramble at the end. Would our rock climbing experience suffice? 

GP is very straightforward and there will be a huge track to follow.  There is in theory some crevasse risk but very low.  There are other good sub400m peaks in the area too.

1
 MG 11 May 2023
In reply to Pero:

>  Schreckhorn.

Has the glacier retreated a lot?  I remember quite a tricky bergschrund at least but that was 1998.

 jon 11 May 2023
In reply to MG:

>  Schreckhorn.

> Has the glacier retreated a lot?  I remember quite a tricky bergschrund at least but that was 1998.

2009 for me and I thought it very tricky too. I can't imagine that glacial retreat has made it easier. There's also the considerable objective danger of the hut gardien...

 MG 11 May 2023
In reply to jon:

> >  There's also the considerable objective danger of the hut gardien...

I believe this has retreated substantially!  I met the Basel SAC hut manager (over-seer of hut wardens) at the Weisshorn hut last year.  He was very diplomatic but suggested things had changed!

(He also explained the very fine wooden swing at the Wiesshorn hut was installed as deal with the hut warden to stop her resigning!)

 ianstevens 11 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

Controversial opinion that I suspect others may not like on here: if you can walk around without crampons, you can walk on a glacier with them. If the glacier doesn't have snow cover*, you don't need to know crevasse rescue - just don't walk into a crevasse, you'll be able to see them.

*this is also INCORRECTLY referred to as a "dry" glacier. It pains my soul this is the technically incorrect term the mountaineering community has picked, but here we are. 

Post edited at 15:25
 mcawle 11 May 2023
In reply to ianstevens:

I really don't agree with the above on a number of levels:

  1. you do need to walk differently in crampons even on flat terrain due to the hazard of catching your crampons on your trousers - yes, that will quickly become apparent, but it's a hazard nonetheless
  2. not all glaciers are flat and as soon as you are ascending or descending more than say 30 degree slopes then there is a degree of technique involved
  3. glaciers lead somewhere, i.e. alpine routes often leave glaciers to include mixed or rocky sections, so even if you navigate that safely then there is still the wider question of being able to get around on mixed/rocky ground in crampons 
  4. glaciers that don't have snow cover still usually end up on ground that does - realistically when most people talk about glacier/crevasse safety, I think they are talking about glaciers *with* snow cover a lot of the time
  5. yes you can see crevasses when there is no snow cover, and it's possible to avoid walking into them, but it's also possible to end up in them by mistake - e.g. if you trip or fall because you're not used to walking on icy/uneven ground in crampons. Or, let's say, you tripped because you caught your crampons on your trousers...

This is not to say that OP should pay for training under any circumstances otherwise they'll die, or that people can't figure stuff out on their own - but OP is asking about going to the Alps to do 4000m peaks without previous glacier experience. How many 4000m peaks are reached solely via flat glaciers that have no snow cover?

 lukevf 11 May 2023
In reply to MG:

Having been down a crevasse on Alphubel, I'd disagree with your recommendation

 Birks 11 May 2023
In reply to tehmarks:

Yep speaking from personal experience, the three people pulling on a rope to one punter system is a lot quicker to set up than a 3:1 pulley system. 

 MG 11 May 2023

In reply to MG:

 From the  Taesch side (I should have said this)?.

 mcawle 11 May 2023
In reply to lukevf:

Haha same (descending north east to Langflue).

 Jasonic 11 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Alpine-Mountaineering-Essential-Knowledge-Alpinist...

Also suggest a couple of days with a guide BMG or similar- 

 loose overhang 12 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

I climbed the Gran Paradiso  about 10 years ago, with my Italian friend.  The biggest nuisance was the guide who wouldn't let us pass until he succumbed to his client's pleadings.  As in most mountain situations if there's a lot of folks around then no crevasse rescue training is required.  They should haul you out.  If there's less than three of you and you are alone on a glacier then tough luck if one of you falls deeply into a crevasse.  You'll probably freeze before help arrives.  At the summit we walked along the top, unroped, but there were others below us seemingly terrified.  By what you wrote in your original post you'll be fine.

We climbed a couple more 4000m routes in the area and I've climbed others.  I live at sea-level so anything over about 3.5k m takes me a while to acclimatize to, but I just go slowish.  I hope that helps.

The best part of that trip was seeing chamois hurtling down hill.

 HeMa 12 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

I doubt there is a single one in the alps that doesn't involve a glacier access (or proper rock climbing).

That being said, some are rather low risk for the actual glaciar portion... 

Gran Paradiso is the obvious one (well trodden path via Vittorio Emmanuelle hut IIRC during peak season). The other would be Breithorn (from Klein Matterhorn lift station). Also really popular and thus well trodden path.


Both do however involve crossing a glacier.

And for the record, I have been only to both locations during early season... so for GP I should have had skis... thus we did not reach the ridge as we swam in too deep snow.

But for Breithorn, I did summit and proceeded to ski down from the summit.

Edited to add, that Breithorn does not include a long walk in, but if you so wish, I' sure you can find a non glaciar approach to Klein Matterhorn... 


To be honest, I would most likely look into purely rock stuff, that is away from the ice and snow... so not over the 4000m limit, but a bit lower. Much more options exists, less crowded as well (well often). 

Post edited at 12:48
 MG 12 May 2023
In reply to HeMa:

> I doubt there is a single one in the alps that doesn't involve a glacier access (or proper rock climbing).

Depends a bit what you mean by proper rock climbing but Weismies, Lagginhorn, Matterhorn and Weisshorn are all definitely possible without touching a glacier at all or pitched climbing.

 streapadair 13 May 2023
In reply to bran335:

I'm not encouraging you to do as I do - maybe I've just been lucky, maybe it's because no-one would miss me - but I've solo'd 13 4k's, all south of the Rhone, all late summer. Most have been mentioned already, but not, I think, Castor and Pollux from the Val d'Ayas Guides' Hut, or 3 on the eastern rim of Monte Rosa - Piramide Vincent, Punta Parrot, and Signalkuppe, where sits the Margherita Hut.

Zumsteinspitze and Lyskamm East were going to be next (then over and out), but a dying dog and covid put them on hold. This year, possibly.

 Pero 13 May 2023
In reply to MG:

> >  Schreckhorn.

> Has the glacier retreated a lot?  I remember quite a tricky bergschrund at least but that was 1998.

The bergschrund can be a problem. It was surprisingly easy when we did it about 5 years ago. It's a short glacier crossing though.

It's another good point that basic ice skills are frequently necessary to cross difficult sections of glacier. 

 Pero 13 May 2023
In reply to lukevf:

> Having been down a crevasse on Alphubel, I'd disagree with your recommendation

The Alphubel has objective crevasse danger for sure. The Rotgrat is a great rock route to the summit, but you still have to negotiate the minefield of crevasses on the descent.

You can descend to the Mischabeljoch biwak, and take in the Taeschhorn,  but the descent from there is equally fraught.

Post edited at 10:16
 MG 13 May 2023
In reply to Pero:

> The Alphubel has objective crevasse danger for sure. The Rotgrat is a great rock route to the summit, but you still have to negotiate the minefield of crevasses on the descent.

To Taesch? Last year the glacier on this side was bare with no crevasses. (Unlike the Weingarten...)

 Rob Exile Ward 15 May 2023
In reply to MG:

The Weismeis definitely doesn't involve a glacier, but there is a snow ridge at the top which is easy but definitely does need crampons and the competence to use them without tripping.

 mcawle 15 May 2023
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

From the SSE or SW (from Almageller Hut) - agree no glacier.

However for clarity in the thread - the normal route up the NW flank (from Hohsaas) definitely does cross the Hohlaubgletscher, which I've heard can now be pretty sketchy although I haven't done it.

And the more technical north ridge from the Lagginjoch also crosses a section of the Hohlaubgletscher on the way to the start of the ridge. I went that way once for the S Ridge of the Lagginhorn and I remember it being okay but I have heard that it can be sketchy and liable to stonefall and perhaps avalanche in other years - see some info on rockfall and alternative approaches to the Lagginjoch from 2020 in the following trip report (I have no affiliation): https://highmountainguides.com/10-september-2020-lagginhorn-weissmies-trave...

Post edited at 11:55
 MG 15 May 2023
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> The Weismeis definitely doesn't involve a glacier, but there is a snow ridge at the top which is easy but definitely does need crampons and the competence to use them without tripping.

Very true.  In fact I think easy glaciers pose less risk than exposed ridges in many ways so totally avoiding glaciers is perhaps not the best way of selecting a low-risk route.  The chances of falling in a crevasse on a smooth glacier with a good track is very small, while the possibility of slipping on a ridge, or having a hold break, is significant.

 lostflatlander 31 May 2023
In reply to MG:

Not sure I agree. When I was on the gran paradiso last summer there was a lot of crevasse risk in the lower part of the route. Although if you take the route that skips most of the lower glacier, there is probably less crevasse risk although I haven't done that route.

 Toerag 01 Jun 2023
In reply to MG:

> Very true.  In fact I think easy glaciers pose less risk than exposed ridges in many ways so totally avoiding glaciers is perhaps not the best way of selecting a low-risk route.  The chances of falling in a crevasse on a smooth glacier with a good track is very small, while the possibility of slipping on a ridge, or having a hold break, is significant.

Of course, but the risks of the non-glacier bit the OP is comfortable with, hence the request.  I would be in a similar position were I keen to do a 4,000-er with my skillset.

 Garethza 01 Jun 2023
In reply to bran335:

As a fellow saffa, I would recommend just biting the bullet and getting a guide for a day at the very least to show you some techniques and concepts that apply to alpine terrain. There is a lot of other stuff to think about than just purely climbing.

As an alternative you could look at a UCPA course something like this in chamonix - https://www.ucpa.co.uk/booking/activity/60061 where you get everything included as well as a guide. Makes your life a lot easier and you will learn a lot at the same time without having to just make all the mistakes yourself! 

 MG 01 Jun 2023
In reply to Toerag:

> Of course, but the risks of the non-glacier bit the OP is comfortable with, hence the request.  I would be in a similar position were I keen to do a 4,000-er with my skillset.

It was just an observation really.  If you look at the stats, crevasse falls are small proportion of deaths/accidents, yet there are regular discussions about glacier-free routes with the implication they are safer.  I'm not sure that's the case 


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