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In reply to Andygg:
HSA3900 4 HHH 358 PA
1 POLICE Climber Substitute
LIGHTNING STRIKE CLIMBER NAMED
By Jude Sheerin, Scottish Press Association
A climber who died after being struck by lightning near a mountain summit was
today named by police.
Derek Hunter, 40, was hit as he neared the 3,500ft peak of Ben Oss, near
Tyndrum, Stirlingshire, at around 7pm yesterday.
His companion called for help by mobile phone and Mr Hunter, of Kelty, Fife
was airlifted by a Royal Navy helicopter scrambled from Prestwick but died en
route to hospital.
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (Rospa) said up to five
people died every year in the UK after being struck by lightning.
Spokesman Roger Vincent advised anyone outdoors during a storm to avoid
swimming and keep away from wide open spaces, isolated trees, aerials or masts.
Trees in particular should be avoided as they ''literally explode'' when
struck and the flying bark can ''injure like shrapnel'', he said.
Anyone caught in a storm should shelter in a brick building or in their car as
the tyres will provide insulation if the vehicle is struck, he advised.
Mr Vincent also warned against carrying long or metal objects which can
attract strikes, such as golf clubs, umbrellas, fishing rods, or climber's
pickaxes.
Large parties of people should not crowd together as multiple deaths have been
recorded from lightning currents jumping between bodies.
He added: ''If you are close to rocks, metal fences or buildings and they
start to emit a buzzing sound and or your hair starts to stand on end, move away
from them quickly as a strike may be imminent.
''If your clothes are wet you are less likely to be injured as the charge
passes right through them rather than you.
He stressed: ''But the best advice is that if bad weather is forecast,
consider delaying your walk and stay in by the fire.''
Mr Hunter's death came after parts of the country were swept by thunder storms
over Monday afternoon and evening.
A spokesman for PA WeatherCentre said: ''There's a risk of a few showers
around Scotland today and possibly the odd rumble of thunder, but nowhere near
the storms we had yesterday.''
end
111040 MAY 04
HSA3900 4 HHH 358 PA
1 POLICE Climber Substitute
LIGHTNING STRIKE CLIMBER NAMED
By Jude Sheerin, Scottish Press Association
A climber who died after being struck by lightning near a mountain summit was
today named by police.
Derek Hunter, 40, was hit as he neared the 3,500ft peak of Ben Oss, near
Tyndrum, Stirlingshire, at around 7pm yesterday.
His companion called for help by mobile phone and Mr Hunter, of Kelty, Fife
was airlifted by a Royal Navy helicopter scrambled from Prestwick but died en
route to hospital.
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (Rospa) said up to five
people died every year in the UK after being struck by lightning.
Spokesman Roger Vincent advised anyone outdoors during a storm to avoid
swimming and keep away from wide open spaces, isolated trees, aerials or masts.
Trees in particular should be avoided as they ''literally explode'' when
struck and the flying bark can ''injure like shrapnel'', he said.
Anyone caught in a storm should shelter in a brick building or in their car as
the tyres will provide insulation if the vehicle is struck, he advised.
Mr Vincent also warned against carrying long or metal objects which can
attract strikes, such as golf clubs, umbrellas, fishing rods, or climber's
pickaxes.
Large parties of people should not crowd together as multiple deaths have been
recorded from lightning currents jumping between bodies.
He added: ''If you are close to rocks, metal fences or buildings and they
start to emit a buzzing sound and or your hair starts to stand on end, move away
from them quickly as a strike may be imminent.
''If your clothes are wet you are less likely to be injured as the charge
passes right through them rather than you.
He stressed: ''But the best advice is that if bad weather is forecast,
consider delaying your walk and stay in by the fire.''
Mr Hunter's death came after parts of the country were swept by thunder storms
over Monday afternoon and evening.
A spokesman for PA WeatherCentre said: ''There's a risk of a few showers
around Scotland today and possibly the odd rumble of thunder, but nowhere near
the storms we had yesterday.''
end
111040 MAY 04
In reply to Andygg:
Ain't the BBC wonderful? They even managed to get a photo of the bolt of lightning.
Ain't the BBC wonderful? They even managed to get a photo of the bolt of lightning.
In reply to Andygg: We heard as night and was chatting to the Gf last night about this, say you get caught out, not too hard to imagine, storms ocur fast, so your stuck on a big mountain face, whats the best course of action, dump your metal gear?
get under an overhang?
abseil as low as possible fast?
Ive no idea.
get under an overhang?
abseil as low as possible fast?
Ive no idea.
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
Eerily enough the only serious electrical storm I've ever been caaght out in was on Ben Oss at a bout 2,500 ft.
Don't know what you're supposed to do when climbing (wet ropes must be risky???). But as a hillwalker I just turned and ran like hell back to Cononish glen.
Like you say they come on very, very fast & scary. Sad story.
Eerily enough the only serious electrical storm I've ever been caaght out in was on Ben Oss at a bout 2,500 ft.
Don't know what you're supposed to do when climbing (wet ropes must be risky???). But as a hillwalker I just turned and ran like hell back to Cononish glen.
Like you say they come on very, very fast & scary. Sad story.
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
Difficult one, a friend was hit in the States taking shelter on a ledge, he made it but his partner didn't.
Closest I've come was seeing a storm approaching & hightailing it back to the 'frique station before we got onto the route. When the cable wheel above us took a hit it was mildly frightening. Lots of pushing away of metal stuff, before realising ther was so much metal higher in the building that we were unlikely to be affected, & anyway, lightening doesn't stike twice....
Difficult one, a friend was hit in the States taking shelter on a ledge, he made it but his partner didn't.
Closest I've come was seeing a storm approaching & hightailing it back to the 'frique station before we got onto the route. When the cable wheel above us took a hit it was mildly frightening. Lots of pushing away of metal stuff, before realising ther was so much metal higher in the building that we were unlikely to be affected, & anyway, lightening doesn't stike twice....
In reply to Iain Ridgway: Apparently hiding under a cave/overhang is not good unless you have about 5m of clearance above you. the current can leap through short distances and still get you. The safest place to be is about 10m out from the base of a cliff, with all your metal gear well away from you. A bit counter-intuitive though.
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
They used to come on regular at about 4pm on a trip to the dolomites.
Hmmm, metal via ferratta anyone?
They used to come on regular at about 4pm on a trip to the dolomites.
Hmmm, metal via ferratta anyone?
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
Small overhangs/ shallow caves are not a good idea, partic if there is some line of weakness above them, with water running down it in a storm. The lightning will arc straight across the cave mouth thru anyone sheltering there. V big overhang/ deep cave obviously would be good. I've always been told that unless you have a good, deep shelter you are better off out in the open, because there are usually more likely targets (e.g. isolated trees) for lightning to strike than yourself. I think I've heard that lying down on the ground helps a bit too.
Small overhangs/ shallow caves are not a good idea, partic if there is some line of weakness above them, with water running down it in a storm. The lightning will arc straight across the cave mouth thru anyone sheltering there. V big overhang/ deep cave obviously would be good. I've always been told that unless you have a good, deep shelter you are better off out in the open, because there are usually more likely targets (e.g. isolated trees) for lightning to strike than yourself. I think I've heard that lying down on the ground helps a bit too.
(In reply to Andygg)
Anyone caught in a storm should shelter in a brick building or in their car as the tyres will provide insulation if the vehicle is struck, he advised.
As an 'expert' he should know better; being safe in a car has absolutley nothing to do with insulating tyres. The car acts as a Faraday cage, dont touch the metal and your fine
Anyone caught in a storm should shelter in a brick building or in their car as the tyres will provide insulation if the vehicle is struck, he advised.
As an 'expert' he should know better; being safe in a car has absolutley nothing to do with insulating tyres. The car acts as a Faraday cage, dont touch the metal and your fine
In reply to GFoz:
you'd think so, but tyhen you'd also think wet clothes were and apparently they're not.
Mind you, the guy being quoted says that a car is safe because of the insulation of the tyres, and this has been disproved - it's safe because the frame of the car directs the charge around you and through the typres to the ground.
> wet ropes must be risky?
you'd think so, but tyhen you'd also think wet clothes were and apparently they're not.
Mind you, the guy being quoted says that a car is safe because of the insulation of the tyres, and this has been disproved - it's safe because the frame of the car directs the charge around you and through the typres to the ground.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I've heard the same advice, except that you should squat on the ground not lie on it as when lying the potential difference from your head to your feet can be larger if there is a strike nearby.
I've heard the same advice, except that you should squat on the ground not lie on it as when lying the potential difference from your head to your feet can be larger if there is a strike nearby.
In reply to Iain Forrest: I heard that put your hands on your head, elbows on your knees, giving the shortest path possible avoiding your vital organs.
but basically there appears to be no set protocol, surely there would be for routes in the alps, dolomites etc, where electrical storms occur almost daily?
but basically there appears to be no set protocol, surely there would be for routes in the alps, dolomites etc, where electrical storms occur almost daily?
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Yes, i think the point about wet clothes, is not that you won't get struck, but that most of the charge will go through your surface clothes and not thru you. A bit like a car (if you don't touch the metal!!), mentioned above.
Yes, i think the point about wet clothes, is not that you won't get struck, but that most of the charge will go through your surface clothes and not thru you. A bit like a car (if you don't touch the metal!!), mentioned above.
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
I now have this image of someone squatting down on the ground in a storm, pouring water all over themselves, then putting their elbows on knees and hands on head ... I think all that would remain then would be to kiss your arse goodbye!
I now have this image of someone squatting down on the ground in a storm, pouring water all over themselves, then putting their elbows on knees and hands on head ... I think all that would remain then would be to kiss your arse goodbye!
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Agreed. I reckon the best idea is just to GTF out of there as quickly as possible, be that by running for cover or abseiling from a route.
Agreed. I reckon the best idea is just to GTF out of there as quickly as possible, be that by running for cover or abseiling from a route.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I think the squatting down thing is not quite correct, getting into the same position as a cat sat down with elbows as close as possible to knees. Do they have lots of thunderstorms near Mecca?
I think the squatting down thing is not quite correct, getting into the same position as a cat sat down with elbows as close as possible to knees. Do they have lots of thunderstorms near Mecca?
In reply to Andygg: I remember a friend of mine was out with some kids up on Beinn Dearg near Ullapool, nearing the cairn, when some of the kids started laughing and giggling loudly. When he turned and asked them what was so funny, they said...'sir, your hair's standing up'! At which point the heavens opened and the mother of all storms began. When I asked him what he did, his simple advice was...'I told them all to run like f*ck, and kept telling them this as I passed them all on the way down!
In reply to Andygg: as far as i remember the idea is get away from overhangs, as any bolts like to take the shortest route possible to ground, ie. straight through you if you're under a roof/in a cave.
Dump the rope if possible and its wet, wet clothes mean charge passes round you, but they'd have to be soaked, a wet rope jus channels the charge straight to you harness/nethers.
Best thing to do would be sitting on the largest ledge you can find, a distance away from your kit, not near any overhangs or vertical fissures in the rock that'll channel the charge towards you, and sit on your pack (or stack of clothes) if youve got one for insulation. Or just run...fast
Dump the rope if possible and its wet, wet clothes mean charge passes round you, but they'd have to be soaked, a wet rope jus channels the charge straight to you harness/nethers.
Best thing to do would be sitting on the largest ledge you can find, a distance away from your kit, not near any overhangs or vertical fissures in the rock that'll channel the charge towards you, and sit on your pack (or stack of clothes) if youve got one for insulation. Or just run...fast
In reply to Andygg:
From what i remember the best course of action is to get in the open, about the same distance from the nearest object as it is tall (ie, 10m away from a 10m high object or pinicle), and then sit on your rucksac with your knees tucked up until the storm passes. It's in the pink MLTB Mountaincraft and Leadership book. Sit on rubble or scree if possible too.
Caves and overhangs are a definite no no!
It sounds as if this guy was just very unlucky. We had a thunderstorm yesterday only 10min after it had been glouriously sunny.
From what i remember the best course of action is to get in the open, about the same distance from the nearest object as it is tall (ie, 10m away from a 10m high object or pinicle), and then sit on your rucksac with your knees tucked up until the storm passes. It's in the pink MLTB Mountaincraft and Leadership book. Sit on rubble or scree if possible too.
Caves and overhangs are a definite no no!
It sounds as if this guy was just very unlucky. We had a thunderstorm yesterday only 10min after it had been glouriously sunny.
In reply to Andygg: I was caught out on the summit of punta penia (marmolada) in the dolomites, just as we were coming off . I've never seen a storm like it in my life, was like having massive explosions all around you. We quickly legged off down the glacier as fast as we could while being pounded with hail.
I believe around 5 people have died on the via ferrata there.....giant lightning conductor.
I believe around 5 people have died on the via ferrata there.....giant lightning conductor.
In reply to Andygg: Me and a friend of mine went walking up Franz Joseph Glaicer in New Zealand! It was raining really hard and the wind was howling. (We were frozen to the bone) Half way up we heard a growl of thunder! Thougherly miserable we turned to our guide for advice! He just shrugged and said "please do not raise your pic axes in the air!" Great advice!
In reply to Iain Forrest: I heard you should squat too, I think the idea is that it's the current the lightening generates in your body that does the damage, if you're squatting with your arms touching the ground, the current takes the easiest route through your body, which is through the arms, much better than through all those precious iternal organs.
not sure if i'd be willing to put it to the test though.
not sure if i'd be willing to put it to the test though.
In reply to richard turkington:
In reply to ickleiz:
Although you really, really *really* might want to run, its probably not always the best thing to do, seeing as lightning can easily strike many miles apart...
Plus you never know, you might end up running in the same direction as the storms heading
But obviously, move away from tall objects and such
(Surely there's some guide book or advice telling you what you should do when you're climbing? I'd be really suprised that no-one has covered it at all...)
In reply to ickleiz:
Although you really, really *really* might want to run, its probably not always the best thing to do, seeing as lightning can easily strike many miles apart...
Plus you never know, you might end up running in the same direction as the storms heading
But obviously, move away from tall objects and such
(Surely there's some guide book or advice telling you what you should do when you're climbing? I'd be really suprised that no-one has covered it at all...)
In reply to Andygg: I can confirm from personal experience that:-
a: Wet clothes are good.
b: Running like feck is also good, if you are near the top of a mountain (unless it's pointy and you would fall a long way if you tried that!).
c:Wet ropes are not good.
d:Neither are overhangs.
a: Wet clothes are good.
b: Running like feck is also good, if you are near the top of a mountain (unless it's pointy and you would fall a long way if you tried that!).
c:Wet ropes are not good.
d:Neither are overhangs.
Got caught in the Grand Canyon during an electric storm in June. It was scary with lightning all round and nowhere to go. There was torrential rain which disloged mini avalanches of rock all over the place, the rain then turned to hail. We were wearing "T" shirts and shorts, as immediately prior to the storm the temp had been in the 80s. The hailstones were large and extremely painful on our legs and arms. All we could do was huddle together with our day sacs over our heads. We got colder and colder and eventually jogged on up the path which had become a stream. By the time we reached the south rim 2 hours later, the hail had turned to snow, and we were soaking and bloody cold. Thank goodness for the bar at the top with a roaring log fire and a supply of Glenmorangie!
Next morning there wasn't a cloud in the sky and the temps were back in the 80s.
Next morning there wasn't a cloud in the sky and the temps were back in the 80s.
In reply to Andygg:
Apparantly under power lines is good. So maybe setting up some kind of fake power line with wet ropes. You could get loads of bomber gear in parallel walls and string the rope several times back and forth. Then, sit underneath, safe in the knowledge you won't get hit! One because you are under a web of evil lightning diverting ropes and two because the storm is well gone by now.
Apparantly under power lines is good. So maybe setting up some kind of fake power line with wet ropes. You could get loads of bomber gear in parallel walls and string the rope several times back and forth. Then, sit underneath, safe in the knowledge you won't get hit! One because you are under a web of evil lightning diverting ropes and two because the storm is well gone by now.
In reply to Andygg: we sat under a boulder at the roaches in it,saw a bolt land in a field of sheep.didnt hit them but ive never seen sheep run faster than my lurcher before
In reply to mark s:
I was once climbing Ladhar Bheinn and on the ridge came across this line of broken rock and thrown up turf about 10m long which I can only assume was caused by a lightning strike - frightening power if it was!
And when I was a kid I remember being caught out in Glen Lyon way up a hillside and having my hair standing on end and running downhill for my life. I could've sworn I was missed by feet by a strike.....
I was once climbing Ladhar Bheinn and on the ridge came across this line of broken rock and thrown up turf about 10m long which I can only assume was caused by a lightning strike - frightening power if it was!
And when I was a kid I remember being caught out in Glen Lyon way up a hillside and having my hair standing on end and running downhill for my life. I could've sworn I was missed by feet by a strike.....
In reply to Father Faff: Two experiences of lightning in scotland . Early morning in Glen lyon with the bangs concentrated over Lawers range. Much worse was being caught midway up the chasm (as if that alone wasnt bad enough) The escape in the down pour and belaying with 150ft of lightning conductor and the flashes hitting the summit - nasty.
Very unfortunate accident. Thoughts for the family, friends and climbing partner. A.O
Very unfortunate accident. Thoughts for the family, friends and climbing partner. A.O
In reply to Andygg:
Interestingly a mate and I got fried by a seemingly random strike on the Cobbler on 5th May, which is a weird coincidence, bearing in mind the tragic accident on Ben Oss early this week. I'd had no idea it was at all common. Actually I hope it isn't.
We'd just traversed S and Centre peaks, and then a wall of sleet swept in. Descended from Centre summit to de-gear and sit out the worst of it on that wee exposed ledge that takes you from the summit back to the through route (argyll's eyeglass I think it's called). With no warning rumbles, no buzzing or hair standing, we were suddenly in the middle of a thunderclap. It's a nasty place to be. Thrown in the air, though thankfully not off the cliff. My whole body was buzzing like I don't know what, and I couldn't feel my limbs to pick up the bags or run away. We both took a hit which melted holes through our clothes and left some nasty burns on entry and exit points. Luckily my mate was less singed, and able to hustle me along a bit. It came in my L shoulder and out both legs, somehow missing anything vital on the way through. Limped down and drove home to Edinburgh. Had a beer and then spent a nasty night in A&E, being pronged with needles and hooked up to ECG machines. Apparently as well as burning a line through your organs from entry to exit, big electric shocks like lightning strikes can mess with your heart rythyms (how do you spell that word? sure I could remember before last week), and it's possible to drop dead several hours after the event, just when you thought everything was fine and it was time for several whiskies. So where possible it's always vital to get checked out by a doc and monitored for a good 12 hours after a strike. I didn't know this before, but I do now. Not sure what you'd do if it was just you and your buddy in the middle of nowhere with no handy hospital next door. Lightning is bloody horrible, especially the random death, bolt-from-the-blue aspect. I've got every sympathy with the family of the victim on Ben Oss. Just glad to be alive myself! And hope the burns heal up soon so I can get back out there...
Interestingly a mate and I got fried by a seemingly random strike on the Cobbler on 5th May, which is a weird coincidence, bearing in mind the tragic accident on Ben Oss early this week. I'd had no idea it was at all common. Actually I hope it isn't.
We'd just traversed S and Centre peaks, and then a wall of sleet swept in. Descended from Centre summit to de-gear and sit out the worst of it on that wee exposed ledge that takes you from the summit back to the through route (argyll's eyeglass I think it's called). With no warning rumbles, no buzzing or hair standing, we were suddenly in the middle of a thunderclap. It's a nasty place to be. Thrown in the air, though thankfully not off the cliff. My whole body was buzzing like I don't know what, and I couldn't feel my limbs to pick up the bags or run away. We both took a hit which melted holes through our clothes and left some nasty burns on entry and exit points. Luckily my mate was less singed, and able to hustle me along a bit. It came in my L shoulder and out both legs, somehow missing anything vital on the way through. Limped down and drove home to Edinburgh. Had a beer and then spent a nasty night in A&E, being pronged with needles and hooked up to ECG machines. Apparently as well as burning a line through your organs from entry to exit, big electric shocks like lightning strikes can mess with your heart rythyms (how do you spell that word? sure I could remember before last week), and it's possible to drop dead several hours after the event, just when you thought everything was fine and it was time for several whiskies. So where possible it's always vital to get checked out by a doc and monitored for a good 12 hours after a strike. I didn't know this before, but I do now. Not sure what you'd do if it was just you and your buddy in the middle of nowhere with no handy hospital next door. Lightning is bloody horrible, especially the random death, bolt-from-the-blue aspect. I've got every sympathy with the family of the victim on Ben Oss. Just glad to be alive myself! And hope the burns heal up soon so I can get back out there...
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