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Malcom Smith completed 'The Big Link' in Parisella's cave yesterday. See http://www.climbonline.co.uk/news.htm for full details.
Incredible effort, and well deserved success.
Andy F
Incredible effort, and well deserved success.
Andy F
In reply to andy farnell:
Awesome.
Awesome.
In reply to andy farnell: yeah, great effort. Great dedication and perseverance. my full congratulations...
(seems most people on here are most interested on a nice easy e1 to break into the grade though... )
(seems most people on here are most interested on a nice easy e1 to break into the grade though... )
In reply to the other one: Speaking to Malc when he came down to LPT after he'd done it yesterday he said a route grade was more appropriate than a bouldering grade, F9a being more accurate than V14.
This is an amazing achievement. He drove 3000 miles to get it, hence the name Pilgimage.
Well done Malc.
Andy F
This is an amazing achievement. He drove 3000 miles to get it, hence the name Pilgimage.
Well done Malc.
Andy F
In reply to andy farnell:
>He drove 3000 miles to get it, hence the name Pilgrimage.
Better at climbing than navigating then?
>He drove 3000 miles to get it, hence the name Pilgrimage.
Better at climbing than navigating then?
In reply to the other one: Most people can better relate to an E1. Well done though.
In reply to Richard Bradley:
Is this the link-up where Ben Moon fell from the last (relatively easy) moves, years back??
Is this the link-up where Ben Moon fell from the last (relatively easy) moves, years back??
In reply to Ben Stokes at Work: Would appear so http://www.northwalesbouldering.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=74
In reply to andy farnell:
To some this must just look like a shitty venue with chipped and polished holds but in reality this must be the second most significan ascent in north Wales since the Indian Face. Fantastic effort.
To some this must just look like a shitty venue with chipped and polished holds but in reality this must be the second most significan ascent in north Wales since the Indian Face. Fantastic effort.
In reply to andy farnell:
am i right in thinking people are getting excited over a boulder problem !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
youth of to-day tut tut
am i right in thinking people are getting excited over a boulder problem !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
youth of to-day tut tut
In reply to andy farnell:
http://www.climbonline.co.uk/Pilgrimage--4-web.jpg
He seems to have man-breasts on his back...
http://www.climbonline.co.uk/Pilgrimage--4-web.jpg
He seems to have man-breasts on his back...
In reply to anonymous1:
Exactly!!!! Boulderers are over-rated in my humble opinion - why not lift weights in a gym?
Exactly!!!! Boulderers are over-rated in my humble opinion - why not lift weights in a gym?
In reply to Fan of real climbers:
at about this point in the standard belittlement ritual it's normal for someone to ask what he's ever done on grit.
at about this point in the standard belittlement ritual it's normal for someone to ask what he's ever done on grit.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
yeah, not very attractive. would look better on a girl!
>
> He seems to have man-breasts on his back...
> He seems to have man-breasts on his back...
yeah, not very attractive. would look better on a girl!
In reply to andy farnell:
Do you think the F9a grade is Malc making a point about the V15/V16 grades being applied to some very long problems recently?
Anyway, whatever grade you give it, it's a very impressive piece of climbing...
> (In reply to the other one) Speaking to Malc when he came down to LPT after he'd done it yesterday he said a route grade was more appropriate than a bouldering grade, F9a being more accurate than V14.
Do you think the F9a grade is Malc making a point about the V15/V16 grades being applied to some very long problems recently?
Anyway, whatever grade you give it, it's a very impressive piece of climbing...
In reply to: 'Whats he ever done on grit?' I believe he's the only person to flash font 8a on grit- mighty impressive.
Rhys Jones (not David)
Rhys Jones (not David)
In reply to Tyler:
What nonsense.Indian Face took tremendous inner strength, talent and balls. Pilgrimage just took a hell 'uv a lot of petrol and practice (and pull ups maybe). Sorry, no comparison.
> (In reply to andy farnell)
>
> To some this must just look like a shitty venue with chipped and polished holds but in reality this must be the second most significan ascent in north Wales since the Indian Face.
>
> To some this must just look like a shitty venue with chipped and polished holds but in reality this must be the second most significan ascent in north Wales since the Indian Face.
What nonsense.Indian Face took tremendous inner strength, talent and balls. Pilgrimage just took a hell 'uv a lot of petrol and practice (and pull ups maybe). Sorry, no comparison.
In reply to David P.:"Indian Face took tremendous inner strength, talent and balls."... and a lot of top roping.
In reply to: Why does there have to be danger involved to make it significant?
I'm not for bolting crags but I do think it's ridiculous to denigrate people who have no interest in risking their life to impress others. It is significant because along with Big Bang it's the hardest piece of sustained climbing in Wales- can you appreciate it on those terms?
Rhys Jones (not David)
I'm not for bolting crags but I do think it's ridiculous to denigrate people who have no interest in risking their life to impress others. It is significant because along with Big Bang it's the hardest piece of sustained climbing in Wales- can you appreciate it on those terms?
Rhys Jones (not David)
In reply to David Jones:
Is it really 'climbing' though or is it purely a test of strength? Wasn't this just a show of strength to impress others? But then isn;t that what climbing at this level is all about, showing off to boost your ego? A guy thing I suppose, we've been doing it for years.
An acheivement i agree but still no comparison over all to Indian Face.
>
It is significant because along with Big Bang it's the hardest piece of sustained climbing in Wales
Is it really 'climbing' though or is it purely a test of strength? Wasn't this just a show of strength to impress others? But then isn;t that what climbing at this level is all about, showing off to boost your ego? A guy thing I suppose, we've been doing it for years.
An acheivement i agree but still no comparison over all to Indian Face.
In reply to Anonymous:
Fair enough, but tremendous all the same.
> "Indian Face took tremendous inner strength, talent and balls."... and a lot of top roping.
Fair enough, but tremendous all the same.
In reply to David P.:
>Wasn't this just a show of strength to impress others? But then isn;t that what climbing at this level is all about, showing off to boost your ego?
From this statement you obviously have no idea who Malcom Smith is never mind what his motivation for climbing might be.
>Wasn't this just a show of strength to impress others? But then isn;t that what climbing at this level is all about, showing off to boost your ego?
From this statement you obviously have no idea who Malcom Smith is never mind what his motivation for climbing might be.
In reply to Fan of real climbers:
Really.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=13398
I boulder to be in nice places not for bouldering's sake.
Mick
> (In reply to anonymous1)
>
> Exactly!!!! Boulderers are over-rated in my humble opinion - why not lift weights in a gym?
>
> Exactly!!!! Boulderers are over-rated in my humble opinion - why not lift weights in a gym?
Really.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=13398
I boulder to be in nice places not for bouldering's sake.
Mick
In reply to Ben Tye:
What does motivate people to climb (or attain other physical success) at this level. Would people be so determined to succeed if nobody noticed? I've always been curious about what drives people to succeed in this way. An interesting question I think. No offence to Malc but would he have bothered if nobody was interested? I'm a psychology student and am quite interested in what drives people to so things like this.
> "From this statement you obviously have no idea who Malcom Smith is never mind what his motivation for climbing might be."
What does motivate people to climb (or attain other physical success) at this level. Would people be so determined to succeed if nobody noticed? I've always been curious about what drives people to succeed in this way. An interesting question I think. No offence to Malc but would he have bothered if nobody was interested? I'm a psychology student and am quite interested in what drives people to so things like this.
In reply to: 'Is this really climbing?' !! really...
Rhys Jones (not David)
Rhys Jones (not David)
In reply to David P.:
Not sure I should be responding to your wind up in response to my original wind up but I'm bored, so what the hell.
If you had read what I said properly you'd have seen that I said second most significant since the Indian Face so I made no attempt to quantify it's significance in relation to the IF, only those routes that have gone up since then. As it happens I don't think it is as significant as IF but is comparible. Both routes were well known problems that had been tried by the best climbers over a number of years, both were significant events on a national scale and both have been climbed by the masters of their style of climbing whilst at the top of their game.
You're comments that Pilgrimage "just took a hell 'uv a lot of petrol and practice (and pull ups maybe)" just prove you have no idea what you are talking about.
> What nonsense.Indian Face took tremendous inner strength, talent and balls. Pilgrimage just took a hell 'uv a lot of petrol and practice (and pull ups maybe). Sorry, no comparison.
Not sure I should be responding to your wind up in response to my original wind up but I'm bored, so what the hell.
If you had read what I said properly you'd have seen that I said second most significant since the Indian Face so I made no attempt to quantify it's significance in relation to the IF, only those routes that have gone up since then. As it happens I don't think it is as significant as IF but is comparible. Both routes were well known problems that had been tried by the best climbers over a number of years, both were significant events on a national scale and both have been climbed by the masters of their style of climbing whilst at the top of their game.
You're comments that Pilgrimage "just took a hell 'uv a lot of petrol and practice (and pull ups maybe)" just prove you have no idea what you are talking about.
In reply to Curious:
Do you only make an effort to succeed with things when others will take notice. Aren't you ever motivted by personal factors to do your best and try your hardest?
> Would people be so determined to succeed if nobody noticed?
Do you only make an effort to succeed with things when others will take notice. Aren't you ever motivted by personal factors to do your best and try your hardest?
In reply to Curious:
> What does motivate people to climb (or attain other physical success) at this level.
Just being the best you can be. This year I will be extremely happy if I lead E1. This will be a major success for me. But it won't sell many copies of OTE. People like Malcolm Smith, Matt Birch (especially) and Steve McClure attract attention because they're the best at what they do. But I suspect their motivations are the same as most of ours'. Except they're maybe a little more obsessed...
>Would people be so determined to succeed if nobody noticed?
On a global scale, how many people really notice? It's not like he's David Beckham!
-j-
> What does motivate people to climb (or attain other physical success) at this level.
Just being the best you can be. This year I will be extremely happy if I lead E1. This will be a major success for me. But it won't sell many copies of OTE. People like Malcolm Smith, Matt Birch (especially) and Steve McClure attract attention because they're the best at what they do. But I suspect their motivations are the same as most of ours'. Except they're maybe a little more obsessed...
>Would people be so determined to succeed if nobody noticed?
On a global scale, how many people really notice? It's not like he's David Beckham!
-j-
In reply to Curious:
I suspect he would. He's one of the least ego-driven people I've encountered. He reckons that one of the hardest problems he's ever done is on the wall in his bedroom - there's not a lot of kudos for that, but he works bloody hard at it.
> No offence to Malc but would he have bothered if nobody was interested?
I suspect he would. He's one of the least ego-driven people I've encountered. He reckons that one of the hardest problems he's ever done is on the wall in his bedroom - there's not a lot of kudos for that, but he works bloody hard at it.
In reply to Tyler:
Yes I am but I already know what motivates me. I'm interested in the pychology which drives other people to want to be the best which means wanting to be better than others. My disertation is based on this and how far people, especially climbers, would push themsleves if nobody else noticed. I realise its a delicate subject but its still an interesting one which is worth some thought. Naturally we would all say we;d still climb if nobody watched us, but would we? Especially for bouldering which often involves a crowd of wannabees surrounding the adored? Attention is flattering and I'm interested how much this drives people to succeed?
> "Aren't you ever motivted by personal factors to do your best and try your hardest?"
Yes I am but I already know what motivates me. I'm interested in the pychology which drives other people to want to be the best which means wanting to be better than others. My disertation is based on this and how far people, especially climbers, would push themsleves if nobody else noticed. I realise its a delicate subject but its still an interesting one which is worth some thought. Naturally we would all say we;d still climb if nobody watched us, but would we? Especially for bouldering which often involves a crowd of wannabees surrounding the adored? Attention is flattering and I'm interested how much this drives people to succeed?
In reply to Curious:
Is that the primary motivation or a by-product of the fact that if you're at the top of the game, being as good as you possibly can coincidentally means that there's no-one else better?
Of course we would. I prefer climbing without an audience, and judging by the hints that are occasionally dropped in these forums, there are many top climbers who feel the same way.
> I'm interested in the pychology which drives other people to want to be the best which means wanting to be better than others.
Is that the primary motivation or a by-product of the fact that if you're at the top of the game, being as good as you possibly can coincidentally means that there's no-one else better?
> Naturally we would all say we;d still climb if nobody watched us, but would we?
Of course we would. I prefer climbing without an audience, and judging by the hints that are occasionally dropped in these forums, there are many top climbers who feel the same way.
In reply to Curious:
You're making the assumption that he wants to be better than everyone else rather than just better than he was before or good enough to do a particular problem.
Given your ignorance of top level climbing and an obvious bias about certain styles of climbing (as well as your preconcieved ideas about motivation) is it wise to be doing disertation on the subject? Hopefully you will learn something in doing the project though.....
You're making the assumption that he wants to be better than everyone else rather than just better than he was before or good enough to do a particular problem.
Given your ignorance of top level climbing and an obvious bias about certain styles of climbing (as well as your preconcieved ideas about motivation) is it wise to be doing disertation on the subject? Hopefully you will learn something in doing the project though.....
In reply to tony:
I disagree, he's just less openly ego-driven than others. All climbers at this level are ego-driven its only the degree to which they openly admit it that most people see. No shame in admitting it boosts your ego to be the best.
>
He's one of the least ego-driven people I've encountered.
I disagree, he's just less openly ego-driven than others. All climbers at this level are ego-driven its only the degree to which they openly admit it that most people see. No shame in admitting it boosts your ego to be the best.
In reply to Tyler:
>Hopefully you will learn something in doing the project though.....
Least of all how to write a complete load of bollocks about a non-question.
Beer: Have you heard of sports psychology? I thought even the youngest inexperienced psychology superviser that you've managed to persuade let you do a degree would instruct you to read in that direction. There's a whole academic area that studies motivation, which has even helped some of the top climbers you seem to dismiss (e.g Jerry Moffatt) to train top their level.
>Hopefully you will learn something in doing the project though.....
Least of all how to write a complete load of bollocks about a non-question.
Beer: Have you heard of sports psychology? I thought even the youngest inexperienced psychology superviser that you've managed to persuade let you do a degree would instruct you to read in that direction. There's a whole academic area that studies motivation, which has even helped some of the top climbers you seem to dismiss (e.g Jerry Moffatt) to train top their level.
In reply to Paz:
Indeed. There is even some work specifically on the psycology of climbers, from a sports psychology aspect.
Indeed. There is even some work specifically on the psycology of climbers, from a sports psychology aspect.
In reply to Tyler:
"Hopefully you will learn something in doing the project though....."
Well that is the idea of a dissertation.... Didn't mean to be controversial, I'm interested in real people's opinions not just what I can real in peer-reviewed journal articles. Why do poeple get to sensitive about their motives? Theres nothing to be ashamed of in getting a buzz from the crowd, look at footballers.
"Hopefully you will learn something in doing the project though....."
Well that is the idea of a dissertation.... Didn't mean to be controversial, I'm interested in real people's opinions not just what I can real in peer-reviewed journal articles. Why do poeple get to sensitive about their motives? Theres nothing to be ashamed of in getting a buzz from the crowd, look at footballers.
In reply to Curious:
don't think anyone is getting senstive I just think your disertation will be a bag of wank as you don't even understand what a top climber is (this I know by your dismissal of bouldering and any climbing that doesn't involve physical danger)
don't think anyone is getting senstive I just think your disertation will be a bag of wank as you don't even understand what a top climber is (this I know by your dismissal of bouldering and any climbing that doesn't involve physical danger)
In reply to Curious:
If you don't set your research within the context of a literature review of relevant work, then you may as well not bother as your work will be meaningless. Hopefully your dissertation supervisor will have already told you this. If not, sack them off and ask for a decent one.
> I'm interested in real people's opinions not just what I can real in peer-reviewed journal articles.
If you don't set your research within the context of a literature review of relevant work, then you may as well not bother as your work will be meaningless. Hopefully your dissertation supervisor will have already told you this. If not, sack them off and ask for a decent one.
In reply to Curious:
Malcolm Smith on bouldering in front of people;
"Loving to boulder is very different from loving to boulder in front of an audience when the pressure is on.
For an ideal competition head you need to love to perform and the crowd needs to energise you and to motivate you. All the guys that I know who do well in comps have this mind set - apart from me. Psychologically comps have never brought out the best in me. I will never be a showman or a rampant extrovert. My quieter, shyer nature is unhappy in the spotlight. Comps for me become a battle to control my natural dislike for these situations."
OTE 134, p35
There you go, the real person's real opinion. It's not always about the buzz.
-j-
Malcolm Smith on bouldering in front of people;
"Loving to boulder is very different from loving to boulder in front of an audience when the pressure is on.
For an ideal competition head you need to love to perform and the crowd needs to energise you and to motivate you. All the guys that I know who do well in comps have this mind set - apart from me. Psychologically comps have never brought out the best in me. I will never be a showman or a rampant extrovert. My quieter, shyer nature is unhappy in the spotlight. Comps for me become a battle to control my natural dislike for these situations."
OTE 134, p35
There you go, the real person's real opinion. It's not always about the buzz.
-j-
In reply to Tyler:
Hmmmm... resorting to verbal abuse does little to validate your point of view. Rather proves my point about getting sensitive. Not my intention so accept an apology for raising what I didn't realise to be such a controversial subjuct. I would imagine a few honest people would admit it's made them think though. I am interested in how much public adoration motivates people, I'm neither condoning nor censuring (don't confuse with censOring), merely asking.
Hmmmm... resorting to verbal abuse does little to validate your point of view. Rather proves my point about getting sensitive. Not my intention so accept an apology for raising what I didn't realise to be such a controversial subjuct. I would imagine a few honest people would admit it's made them think though. I am interested in how much public adoration motivates people, I'm neither condoning nor censuring (don't confuse with censOring), merely asking.
In reply to Curious:
and then apparently saying that people who don't agree are being dishonest?
> merely asking
and then apparently saying that people who don't agree are being dishonest?
In reply to Jules Lewis:
Thanks thats interesting but he still wants to be the best and get in the mags doesn't he (not just him, others too)? What do you think motivates this? Must be flattering to see your picture in print? If he wasn't interested in what others think he wouldn't have drawn so much attention to his cave and posed for photos. I am not being critical please realise, just want to know how far would a top athlete go (not just Malc) if nobody noticed or noone were interested if you told them. Guess we'll never know becasue we never hear about these people!!
Thanks thats interesting but he still wants to be the best and get in the mags doesn't he (not just him, others too)? What do you think motivates this? Must be flattering to see your picture in print? If he wasn't interested in what others think he wouldn't have drawn so much attention to his cave and posed for photos. I am not being critical please realise, just want to know how far would a top athlete go (not just Malc) if nobody noticed or noone were interested if you told them. Guess we'll never know becasue we never hear about these people!!
In reply to Curious:
Very true, but could make for a very short dissertation
> Guess we'll never know becasue we never hear about these people!!
Very true, but could make for a very short dissertation
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Not at all, I was just surprised by some very defensive responses. Remove the word honest from my previous note to avoid confusion. ... "made a few people think?" The acknowledgement of one's achievements must be some incentive, I wonder just how much, thats all.
Not at all, I was just surprised by some very defensive responses. Remove the word honest from my previous note to avoid confusion. ... "made a few people think?" The acknowledgement of one's achievements must be some incentive, I wonder just how much, thats all.
In reply to Curious:
Well why not ask him and others rather than coming on here and making assumptions like "but he still wants to be the best and get in the mags". Why bother with a disertation at all if you have already reached your conclusions?
Do some, like, y'know research.
Well why not ask him and others rather than coming on here and making assumptions like "but he still wants to be the best and get in the mags". Why bother with a disertation at all if you have already reached your conclusions?
Do some, like, y'know research.
In reply to Curious:
Thanks thats interesting but he still wants to be the best and get in the mags doesn't he (not just him, others too)?
I don't know, because I'm not inside his head!!! I would guess Yes to the first bit, and No to the second, but you should ask him! My impression is that most top climbers are really quite approachable - why don't you go to a big comp and get the answers straight from the horse's mouth? If you did that, I for one would love to read your dissertation...
By the way, I wouldn't suggest approaching them with the attitude "oh, you do it for the adoration, don't you?", as they'll probably (rightly) tell you to f*** off!
If he wasn't interested in what others think he wouldn't have drawn so much attention to his cave and posed for photos.
I guess the photos were done because of the prevailing "oh yeah?" attitude that comes out when someone claims a first ascent, particularly when they give it a hard grade. And as far as I know, the only other person there was his mate, Andy Earl.
I am not being critical please realise ...
Maybe, maybe not, but you ARE making a heck of a lot of assumptions...
-j-
Thanks thats interesting but he still wants to be the best and get in the mags doesn't he (not just him, others too)?
I don't know, because I'm not inside his head!!! I would guess Yes to the first bit, and No to the second, but you should ask him! My impression is that most top climbers are really quite approachable - why don't you go to a big comp and get the answers straight from the horse's mouth? If you did that, I for one would love to read your dissertation...
By the way, I wouldn't suggest approaching them with the attitude "oh, you do it for the adoration, don't you?", as they'll probably (rightly) tell you to f*** off!
If he wasn't interested in what others think he wouldn't have drawn so much attention to his cave and posed for photos.
I guess the photos were done because of the prevailing "oh yeah?" attitude that comes out when someone claims a first ascent, particularly when they give it a hard grade. And as far as I know, the only other person there was his mate, Andy Earl.
I am not being critical please realise ...
Maybe, maybe not, but you ARE making a heck of a lot of assumptions...
-j-
In reply to all:
This ended up being a bit of an essay, I didn’t intend it to, but I hope it sparks interesting debate!
Climbing is not about the climbs or the grades really, it's about the people. As observers of other peoples' achievements, whether they are of the latest V-whatever boulder problem or Indian Face, the climbing is relatively meaningless to anyone except the individual who experienced it. There is no intrinsic meaning in these climbs, no universal truth that they hold. So if this is the case then what is the point? The individual experience is intrinsic and the meaning we derive is truth for us and us alone. But debating its meaning with anyone else is futile. But, and I believe this is crucial, our motivation to climb is an intrinsic reflection of ourselves. We put our personalities into our climbing, whether they are new routes or repeats and as observers, we can try to find meaning in this and relate to it - this is what is important to us as people and as observers.
For this reason, the purely physical excursions on rather drab or uninspiring pieces of rock will naturally attract criticism because they hold no real meaning for anyone other than the climber. We cannot ever question the achievement or the motivation because we cannot experience the individuals' experience. But when Malcolm Smith climbs this boulder problem, he also makes a statement about the person he is and if as a result we are inclined to conclude that actually he may be a rather ordinary or relatively uninteresting person, then perhaps we should also conclude that his achievement, while physically impressive, does not inspire passion or motivation in others. Of course this does not make him a bad person, just not a very interesting one.
By comparison some one like Johnny Dawes is perhaps one of the most interesting people I think I ever had the fortune to have a conversation with. Even if your only contact with him is his description of the first ascent of Indian Face, which can be found in Extreme Rock, you cannot fail to realise that he is an enormously fascinating, talented and complex human being. But it is not because of the routes he climbs, he does not serve them. Rather they are a reflection of him; these routes and their moves are his way of expressing himself and his personality and it is perhaps no coincidence that they are typically intricate, complex, imaginative and bold.
So what is going on here? I think it is a classic case of status anxiety, whereby those individuals that are being ascribed the most status and credit (the power merchants that crank these unfathomably hard boulder problems), who’s achievements and opinions are granted the most accolade, are for many people the least deserving because fundamentally they are not interesting people; they are not people in whom we can see, and be inspired b, the depth and complexity of their character.
Climbing used to be populated by people of whom this was true and I believe this to be the case because until recently (15 or so years ago), the challenge of climbing was far more complex than of a simple gymnastic exercise. Thus, the type of climbers that were at the cutting edge of climbing were also more complex and therefore more interesting as people.
This ended up being a bit of an essay, I didn’t intend it to, but I hope it sparks interesting debate!
Climbing is not about the climbs or the grades really, it's about the people. As observers of other peoples' achievements, whether they are of the latest V-whatever boulder problem or Indian Face, the climbing is relatively meaningless to anyone except the individual who experienced it. There is no intrinsic meaning in these climbs, no universal truth that they hold. So if this is the case then what is the point? The individual experience is intrinsic and the meaning we derive is truth for us and us alone. But debating its meaning with anyone else is futile. But, and I believe this is crucial, our motivation to climb is an intrinsic reflection of ourselves. We put our personalities into our climbing, whether they are new routes or repeats and as observers, we can try to find meaning in this and relate to it - this is what is important to us as people and as observers.
For this reason, the purely physical excursions on rather drab or uninspiring pieces of rock will naturally attract criticism because they hold no real meaning for anyone other than the climber. We cannot ever question the achievement or the motivation because we cannot experience the individuals' experience. But when Malcolm Smith climbs this boulder problem, he also makes a statement about the person he is and if as a result we are inclined to conclude that actually he may be a rather ordinary or relatively uninteresting person, then perhaps we should also conclude that his achievement, while physically impressive, does not inspire passion or motivation in others. Of course this does not make him a bad person, just not a very interesting one.
By comparison some one like Johnny Dawes is perhaps one of the most interesting people I think I ever had the fortune to have a conversation with. Even if your only contact with him is his description of the first ascent of Indian Face, which can be found in Extreme Rock, you cannot fail to realise that he is an enormously fascinating, talented and complex human being. But it is not because of the routes he climbs, he does not serve them. Rather they are a reflection of him; these routes and their moves are his way of expressing himself and his personality and it is perhaps no coincidence that they are typically intricate, complex, imaginative and bold.
So what is going on here? I think it is a classic case of status anxiety, whereby those individuals that are being ascribed the most status and credit (the power merchants that crank these unfathomably hard boulder problems), who’s achievements and opinions are granted the most accolade, are for many people the least deserving because fundamentally they are not interesting people; they are not people in whom we can see, and be inspired b, the depth and complexity of their character.
Climbing used to be populated by people of whom this was true and I believe this to be the case because until recently (15 or so years ago), the challenge of climbing was far more complex than of a simple gymnastic exercise. Thus, the type of climbers that were at the cutting edge of climbing were also more complex and therefore more interesting as people.
In reply to Greg Turner:
I liked what you said but be careful, you'll have Malc's groupies all in frenzy 'cos you said he not as interesting as Johhny!
I liked what you said but be careful, you'll have Malc's groupies all in frenzy 'cos you said he not as interesting as Johhny!
In reply to Greg Turner:
Firstly, the moves on Dawes' routes are not "his way of expressing himself" they tend instead to be a fairly universal set of movements for anyone on the same climb. Unsurprising, since they are literally "set in stone" (which I'm fairly sure Mr Dawes didn't hand-craft despite some people's idolising assumptions!).
Secondly, why is being as total tw*t AKA Johnny Dawes now regarded as being "interesting", whereas being a sound bloke AKA Malcolm Smith is "boring"?
Firstly, the moves on Dawes' routes are not "his way of expressing himself" they tend instead to be a fairly universal set of movements for anyone on the same climb. Unsurprising, since they are literally "set in stone" (which I'm fairly sure Mr Dawes didn't hand-craft despite some people's idolising assumptions!).
Secondly, why is being as total tw*t AKA Johnny Dawes now regarded as being "interesting", whereas being a sound bloke AKA Malcolm Smith is "boring"?
In reply to Greg Turner:
Told ya! I've actually heard Malc can be a total tw*t too so Johnny isn't the only one. I'm sure we've all been a bit of a tw*t at some time in our lives.
Anyway, thanks for the input guys, it been interesting hearing what you have to say and very useful. Still interested in the "would we climb if nobody acknowledged our achievements" question. From an objective, without prejudice point of view before anybody gets upset. Maybe in a different section though, this just inspired me to ask because of my research.thanks.
Told ya! I've actually heard Malc can be a total tw*t too so Johnny isn't the only one. I'm sure we've all been a bit of a tw*t at some time in our lives.
Anyway, thanks for the input guys, it been interesting hearing what you have to say and very useful. Still interested in the "would we climb if nobody acknowledged our achievements" question. From an objective, without prejudice point of view before anybody gets upset. Maybe in a different section though, this just inspired me to ask because of my research.thanks.
In reply to Curious:
"would we climb if nobody acknowledged our achievements"
I would, and if you asked me the question personally, as as repeatedly as you have in this thread, and with the apparent presumption you appear to have that the answer is no, I'd be pretty annoyed. I think if you asked Joe Brown this question, he'd knock your block off (even at 74)!
There probably are some people who climb hard at least partly for the accolades, but there are people like that in all walks of life...
-j-
"would we climb if nobody acknowledged our achievements"
I would, and if you asked me the question personally, as as repeatedly as you have in this thread, and with the apparent presumption you appear to have that the answer is no, I'd be pretty annoyed. I think if you asked Joe Brown this question, he'd knock your block off (even at 74)!
There probably are some people who climb hard at least partly for the accolades, but there are people like that in all walks of life...
-j-
In reply to Jules Lewis:
I don't think Joe Brown would get physical (though he takes no sh*it), it's a fair enough question I say (maybe I asked it a little controversiallY). But ta for your response, will add it to list. I also mean with the athletes that push themselves to be better than the rest though. I know MS does like his photos published, of course he does. Who wouldn't?ta anyway.
I don't think Joe Brown would get physical (though he takes no sh*it), it's a fair enough question I say (maybe I asked it a little controversiallY). But ta for your response, will add it to list. I also mean with the athletes that push themselves to be better than the rest though. I know MS does like his photos published, of course he does. Who wouldn't?ta anyway.
In reply to Curious:
I know MS does like his photos published, of course he does.
Not sure why I'm bothering, but.... how do you know this?
-j-
I know MS does like his photos published, of course he does.
Not sure why I'm bothering, but.... how do you know this?
-j-
In reply to Jules Lewis:
Many pictures of climbers on first ascents, especially boulder problems, are posed and thats made clear in the caption. nothing wrong in enjoying seeing your photo in a magazine is there? I'd be proud if I got a photo of me climbing in a mag, (more likely falling off). Ta for your responses.
Many pictures of climbers on first ascents, especially boulder problems, are posed and thats made clear in the caption. nothing wrong in enjoying seeing your photo in a magazine is there? I'd be proud if I got a photo of me climbing in a mag, (more likely falling off). Ta for your responses.
In reply to Curious:
I would like to congratulate you on your conduct throughout this thread; keeping your head while all around you are losing theirs. Not enough posters like you on RT. You raised a contraversial issue, asked some good, thought provoking questions, perhaps a little bluntly, and got the usual personal insults and venom from quite a few people.
It's very interesting to see people reinforcing certain judgmental stereotypes; seeking the approval or adoration of others is an unworthy cause. People think it's much cooler to be some kind of spiritual yoda figure, hidden away on your own in some obscure cave trying to send the hardest move ever. Why is this more virtuous than a Moffatt who self-publicises and shouts 'look at me' from the rooftops? Where does this judgement come from? Some of the most entertaining sportsmen in history have been shameless extroverts, firey and passionate about what they do. Just because you like to be noticed and praised doesn't mean you're a tw@, and just because you're a Gaskins wannabe who shuns the spotlight doesn't mean you're 'cool'.
On the contrary, it is not uncommon to find people who overdo the introvert/modesty thing are often trying in a subtle and crafty way to make themselves look even better than their diametric.
I don't know Malc, so can't comment on this particular case. I have know other people in climbing and martial arts do this, though. The false modesty yoda thing, I mean.
I would like to congratulate you on your conduct throughout this thread; keeping your head while all around you are losing theirs. Not enough posters like you on RT. You raised a contraversial issue, asked some good, thought provoking questions, perhaps a little bluntly, and got the usual personal insults and venom from quite a few people.
It's very interesting to see people reinforcing certain judgmental stereotypes; seeking the approval or adoration of others is an unworthy cause. People think it's much cooler to be some kind of spiritual yoda figure, hidden away on your own in some obscure cave trying to send the hardest move ever. Why is this more virtuous than a Moffatt who self-publicises and shouts 'look at me' from the rooftops? Where does this judgement come from? Some of the most entertaining sportsmen in history have been shameless extroverts, firey and passionate about what they do. Just because you like to be noticed and praised doesn't mean you're a tw@, and just because you're a Gaskins wannabe who shuns the spotlight doesn't mean you're 'cool'.
On the contrary, it is not uncommon to find people who overdo the introvert/modesty thing are often trying in a subtle and crafty way to make themselves look even better than their diametric.
I don't know Malc, so can't comment on this particular case. I have know other people in climbing and martial arts do this, though. The false modesty yoda thing, I mean.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
What is all this shit....if you wanna have a disscussion about all your supposed views on someone who is a fantastic climber, a driven individual who has dedicated his life to climbing better and better, then do it on a different post. I thought this was to congrats malc about his effort and disscuss the problem itself. all im getting is third hand psychological profiling of someone most of you have never met. i mean trying to compare Pilgramage to indian face, Dawes to malc. COME ON.
(As for this idea that Johnny was a natural and never did any training!!! Why did he used to spend months in the south of france sport climbing???)
This is a world class effort from a very talented scotsman, all i can hear from most of rocktalk is bitching and no comprhension of what modern climbing is about
What is all this shit....if you wanna have a disscussion about all your supposed views on someone who is a fantastic climber, a driven individual who has dedicated his life to climbing better and better, then do it on a different post. I thought this was to congrats malc about his effort and disscuss the problem itself. all im getting is third hand psychological profiling of someone most of you have never met. i mean trying to compare Pilgramage to indian face, Dawes to malc. COME ON.
(As for this idea that Johnny was a natural and never did any training!!! Why did he used to spend months in the south of france sport climbing???)
This is a world class effort from a very talented scotsman, all i can hear from most of rocktalk is bitching and no comprhension of what modern climbing is about
In reply to Anonymous:
At last, some common sense. Your right, most people on here have no idea of what it takes to do something like Pilgrimage. It is a world class effort, as only a handfull of people on the planet could climb it.
All the pseudo-psychology on this thread is a load of Bull.
I posted this thread to congratulate Malc on a fantastic achievement and yet again a bunch of Vdiff bumblies try to bring it down to their level.
Andy F
> (In reply to Dom Orsler)
> This is a world class effort from a very talented scotsman, all i can hear from most of rocktalk is bitching and no comprhension of what modern climbing is about
> This is a world class effort from a very talented scotsman, all i can hear from most of rocktalk is bitching and no comprhension of what modern climbing is about
At last, some common sense. Your right, most people on here have no idea of what it takes to do something like Pilgrimage. It is a world class effort, as only a handfull of people on the planet could climb it.
All the pseudo-psychology on this thread is a load of Bull.
I posted this thread to congratulate Malc on a fantastic achievement and yet again a bunch of Vdiff bumblies try to bring it down to their level.
Andy F
In reply to Dom Orsler: Come on! What's Yoda ever done on grit?
In reply to andy farnell:
Seems to me like the bumblies are the ones dishing out most of the praise
Seems to me like the bumblies are the ones dishing out most of the praise
In reply to Simon Caldwell: Agreed. Possibly it's the wanabees that do most of the shouting. Thereagain, I'm a V5 wanabee. Oh well.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Mr Farnell is right though. Every time someone posts a thread about some hard test piece, someone with no understanding of what it takes to do these things (i.e. pretty much everyone here!) comes along and trys to belittle the achievement.
Some people are very very good climbers who can do hard things that we will never get off the ground on, just acknowledge and accept it, they deserve any acclaim they get whether they're looking for it or not as they've worked very hard to achive these things.
Mr Farnell is right though. Every time someone posts a thread about some hard test piece, someone with no understanding of what it takes to do these things (i.e. pretty much everyone here!) comes along and trys to belittle the achievement.
Some people are very very good climbers who can do hard things that we will never get off the ground on, just acknowledge and accept it, they deserve any acclaim they get whether they're looking for it or not as they've worked very hard to achive these things.
In reply to Craig_M:
Indeed. Hence my remark about "the standard belittlement ritual"
> someone with no understanding of what it takes to do these things (i.e. pretty much everyone here!) comes along and trys to belittle the achievement
Indeed. Hence my remark about "the standard belittlement ritual"
In reply to Craig_M:
Sorry, but is precisely because we don't understand how hard something is we post questions about it. There is no point in replying to a post that says "Tom Cobbly has just done route x and its very hard, (sub text) you don't understand, believe me" with, "oh if you say so, well done, polite applause". We want to know WHY its hard/significant etc.
If you don't want open discussion, don't post on a discussion forum.
Sorry, but is precisely because we don't understand how hard something is we post questions about it. There is no point in replying to a post that says "Tom Cobbly has just done route x and its very hard, (sub text) you don't understand, believe me" with, "oh if you say so, well done, polite applause". We want to know WHY its hard/significant etc.
If you don't want open discussion, don't post on a discussion forum.
In reply to GrahamD:
Don't start getting all stroppy. There is nothing wrong with asking questions, I never said there was.
However, saying that it's unimportant because it's "only" a boulder problem, or suggesting that it wouldn't have been done if there was no publicity, both done earlier in this thread are entirely different.
Don't start getting all stroppy. There is nothing wrong with asking questions, I never said there was.
However, saying that it's unimportant because it's "only" a boulder problem, or suggesting that it wouldn't have been done if there was no publicity, both done earlier in this thread are entirely different.
In reply to Craig_M: Post ANYTHING on here and someone will have a go. It's the way of the forum. Don't worry about it, I'm sure Mr Smith doesn't.
In reply to Richard Bradley:
I don't worry about it, but occasionally I feel the need to bang my head against the wall and try to educate the halfwits. However, it's like King Canute trying to hold back the tide.
I don't worry about it, but occasionally I feel the need to bang my head against the wall and try to educate the halfwits. However, it's like King Canute trying to hold back the tide.
In reply to Richard Bradley:
Are you sure? I'm sure Malc's sitting at home sobbing into his blanket cos of some prattish comments on a UKC thread.
> Don't worry about it, I'm sure Mr Smith doesn't.
Are you sure? I'm sure Malc's sitting at home sobbing into his blanket cos of some prattish comments on a UKC thread.
In reply to Jus: Your right. The poor sod probably won't be able to eat his lunch.
In reply to; Curious
To put it into context Parisella's cave may not exactly be the most inspiring place to climb, scruffy and polished, but in hardcore bouldering, traditional values are of less importance, and sometimes we are insspired by the curving arc of a soaring feature, but somtimes we are touched by the epic struggle of an individual, regardless of the apparent futility of thier journey.
To put it into context Parisella's cave may not exactly be the most inspiring place to climb, scruffy and polished, but in hardcore bouldering, traditional values are of less importance, and sometimes we are insspired by the curving arc of a soaring feature, but somtimes we are touched by the epic struggle of an individual, regardless of the apparent futility of thier journey.
In reply to Stonelove:
I agree it was an epic, but futile, exercise.... but maybe not if it gets him the credit he desires...
I agree it was an epic, but futile, exercise.... but maybe not if it gets him the credit he desires...
In reply to (Un)impressed?:
You could arguably apply that as a definition to all climbing, or indeed life in general for that matter.
> I agree it was an epic, but futile, exercise.
You could arguably apply that as a definition to all climbing, or indeed life in general for that matter.
In reply to Stonelove: Perhaps you should learn to use quotation marks?
I'm not sure if you've lifted my words directly, but the latter part of that sentence is definitely a close approximation of a piece (I think) that I wrote for OTE a few years ago.
Not missing a trick.
Simon.
I'm not sure if you've lifted my words directly, but the latter part of that sentence is definitely a close approximation of a piece (I think) that I wrote for OTE a few years ago.
Not missing a trick.
Simon.
In reply to (Un)impressed?:
you really are an a true ass
you really are an a true ass
In reply to Craig_M:
Stroppy is my natural rest state
You could argue that one begets the other. It is only important BECAUSE of the publicity. If no one ever heard about it, it could only be important to one person.
> Don't start getting all stroppy.
Stroppy is my natural rest state
> However, saying that it's unimportant because it's "only" a boulder problem, or suggesting that it wouldn't have been done if there was no publicity, both done earlier in this thread are entirely different.
You could argue that one begets the other. It is only important BECAUSE of the publicity. If no one ever heard about it, it could only be important to one person.
In reply to GrahamD:
Perhaps, but then you could say that about every route or boulder problem ever done. The point is, that questioning the validity of the achievement is just petty and shows up those who do it (without justification) as being small minded, insecure and having no understanding of what it takes to do something which is truly hard.
By justification, I mean where there is good reason to doubt the ascent, not including the periodic witch hunts.
Perhaps, but then you could say that about every route or boulder problem ever done. The point is, that questioning the validity of the achievement is just petty and shows up those who do it (without justification) as being small minded, insecure and having no understanding of what it takes to do something which is truly hard.
By justification, I mean where there is good reason to doubt the ascent, not including the periodic witch hunts.
In reply to andy farnell:
I am sure you are right that Malc's ascent is awsome/ world class. Hats off to anyone who is in the top 10 of their sport.
I am disappointed that you are upset that you got more than 10 incredibly boring posts saying "well done Malc" - which if he is as egoless as you make out are a complete waste of time.
As for your comment regarding "Vdiff bumblies try to bring it down to their level" - just as mindless a thing to say as anybody else - but interestingly controversial.
Cheers,
I am sure you are right that Malc's ascent is awsome/ world class. Hats off to anyone who is in the top 10 of their sport.
I am disappointed that you are upset that you got more than 10 incredibly boring posts saying "well done Malc" - which if he is as egoless as you make out are a complete waste of time.
As for your comment regarding "Vdiff bumblies try to bring it down to their level" - just as mindless a thing to say as anybody else - but interestingly controversial.
Cheers,
You all are a bunch of twits, comparing the Indian face (a piece of piss) to this problem (f*cking desparate). Take my word for it, I know both the climbers (dawes and smith) and both the climbs (Indian face and the big link) and i will tell you for free that although the indian face is a relativly bold headpoint, ahead of its time, any bold prick climbing the low grades of 7b/+ could do it if they really wanted to. To do the big link please leave aside at least half your present life just to train for it (and then some). Dawes will confirm this (he isnt that mad yet)
In reply to spoon hitter:
I was hoping not to return to this thread as its all getting a bit silly and irrelevant to the original thread. However you seem to have missed the point of the Indian Face - Pilgramige comparison and as I was the first person to make this connectionI'd better defend what I said.
I was comparing the routes in terms of significance not difficulty. I only mentioned it to pre-empt those that would question the news worthyness of a boulder problem or the value of Parisella's. To my mind they are both toweringly significant achievements, landmarks in Welsh /UK climbing. The only more significant route I can think of in Wales sine 1986 is the Big Bang. That is not to say I think the IF compares in difficulty to the other, how could it, apart from being at opposite ends of the climbing spectrum they are also almost 20 years apart. If anyone is trying to make such a comparison then more fool them.
I was hoping not to return to this thread as its all getting a bit silly and irrelevant to the original thread. However you seem to have missed the point of the Indian Face - Pilgramige comparison and as I was the first person to make this connectionI'd better defend what I said.
I was comparing the routes in terms of significance not difficulty. I only mentioned it to pre-empt those that would question the news worthyness of a boulder problem or the value of Parisella's. To my mind they are both toweringly significant achievements, landmarks in Welsh /UK climbing. The only more significant route I can think of in Wales sine 1986 is the Big Bang. That is not to say I think the IF compares in difficulty to the other, how could it, apart from being at opposite ends of the climbing spectrum they are also almost 20 years apart. If anyone is trying to make such a comparison then more fool them.
In reply to Tyler:
How do you define the significance of an ascent ? It can't just be the grade of the problem / route, can it ? The timing has to be right and somehow it has to stimulate the imagination or to mark a turning point in the sport.
For whatever reason, Big Bang doesn't appear (as a punter and probably in the majority as far as the climbing public goes)to have had the significance as it should have - either in putting LPT back into the limelight or in terms of inspiring or attracting others to sports climbing (in the same way that Ben Moon did, or Steve McClure appears to be doing). Maybe its because Neil Carson disapeared from the limelight afterwards - who knows.
Similarly, Pilgrimage is undoubtedly hard (if numbers are anything to judge by) but only time will tell if it is a significant achievement in the wider scheme of things.
How do you define the significance of an ascent ? It can't just be the grade of the problem / route, can it ? The timing has to be right and somehow it has to stimulate the imagination or to mark a turning point in the sport.
For whatever reason, Big Bang doesn't appear (as a punter and probably in the majority as far as the climbing public goes)to have had the significance as it should have - either in putting LPT back into the limelight or in terms of inspiring or attracting others to sports climbing (in the same way that Ben Moon did, or Steve McClure appears to be doing). Maybe its because Neil Carson disapeared from the limelight afterwards - who knows.
Similarly, Pilgrimage is undoubtedly hard (if numbers are anything to judge by) but only time will tell if it is a significant achievement in the wider scheme of things.
In reply to Anonymous:
It's a shame you posted that reply to me, as it is a little inappropriate to my post. I haven't knocked Malc in the slightest and have nothing other than admiration for what the guy has done over the years. I do think the other guy raised some interesting questions, although this was not, perhaps, the best of places to do it. I also think he handled himself well in response to some needless and disproportionate personal abuse in response to reasonable questions.
Oh, just so I'm not slagged off again, 'well done Malc! Top effort! If only all these poor punters could even come vaguely close to wrapping their tiny VDiff minds around the immense and awesome effort it takes to even sniff your anasazis. I dream of having your fingers of steel, you beady-eyed little Scottsman. Only I truly understand you.'
It's a shame you posted that reply to me, as it is a little inappropriate to my post. I haven't knocked Malc in the slightest and have nothing other than admiration for what the guy has done over the years. I do think the other guy raised some interesting questions, although this was not, perhaps, the best of places to do it. I also think he handled himself well in response to some needless and disproportionate personal abuse in response to reasonable questions.
Oh, just so I'm not slagged off again, 'well done Malc! Top effort! If only all these poor punters could even come vaguely close to wrapping their tiny VDiff minds around the immense and awesome effort it takes to even sniff your anasazis. I dream of having your fingers of steel, you beady-eyed little Scottsman. Only I truly understand you.'
In reply to Dom Orsler:
I think you put your finger on it, there: As a punter, I am supposed to fall over myself to congratulate someone for something I can't even start to understand ?
Sounds like religion to me.
I think you put your finger on it, there: As a punter, I am supposed to fall over myself to congratulate someone for something I can't even start to understand ?
Sounds like religion to me.
In reply to GrahamD:
Hmmm... Malc with long hair and a beard...?
And Jerry did put up Messiah, after all...
Hmmm... Malc with long hair and a beard...?
And Jerry did put up Messiah, after all...
In reply to andy farnell et all: All this BS about 18' "hardest route in the world" and now headlines on a boulder problem,it just goes to show how UK climbing is now promoting the ridiculous ,as it has simply run out of interesting climbable rock. Its time UK climbers moved on and realised they are real challenges in other parts of the world for their talents rather than these silly bits of choss.
In reply to Anonymous: Au contraire, these are 'real' challenges. There is interesting climbable rock in the UK (projects on the roof above the short Malham catwalk routes e.g. Overnight Sensation and Magnetic Fields for starters), it's just the incredible difficulty they will undoubtably contain.
Andy F
Andy F
In reply to Anonymous:
I do think that there is a real difficulty at the moment in trying to ascribe 'significance' to these ascents. The 'difficulty' is (I guess) easy to gain concensus on (at least plus or minus a grade) but whether problems like Pilgrimage are still being talked about in 10 or 20 years time (in the same way that IF still takes centre stage in the new Cloggy guide for instance) is anyone's guess.
I do think that there is a real difficulty at the moment in trying to ascribe 'significance' to these ascents. The 'difficulty' is (I guess) easy to gain concensus on (at least plus or minus a grade) but whether problems like Pilgrimage are still being talked about in 10 or 20 years time (in the same way that IF still takes centre stage in the new Cloggy guide for instance) is anyone's guess.
"whether problems like Pilgrimage are still being talked about in 10 or 20 years time (in the same way that IF still takes centre stage in the new Cloggy guide for instance) is anyone's guess"
I would imagine not in the general climbing community. They probably dont even talk about it now (unless on this thread)Probably only in the local bouldering scene unless its been surpassed by somethign else. I think its something only boulderers can really appreciate. Most E1 leaders wont be that fussed.
I would imagine not in the general climbing community. They probably dont even talk about it now (unless on this thread)Probably only in the local bouldering scene unless its been surpassed by somethign else. I think its something only boulderers can really appreciate. Most E1 leaders wont be that fussed.
In reply to Boulderphobe: If it's of no interest to you why have you posted on this thread about it. How many hard boulderers do you get turning up on your 'best severe at windgather' threads, to tell you how boring they feel your world is?
In reply to Boulderphobe:
Pilgrimage has already been talked about for over 10 years, it was known as "the big link" and nobody could do it. Incredible effort which should not be belittled in any way.
Pilgrimage has already been talked about for over 10 years, it was known as "the big link" and nobody could do it. Incredible effort which should not be belittled in any way.
In reply to Anonymous:
I'd be interested to know what the criteria is for a real challenge?
I'd be interested to know what the criteria is for a real challenge?
In reply to Boy:
" If it's of no interest to you why have you posted on this thread about it"
I'm bored! merely saying it can only really be appreciated by another boulderer which is probably why it recieved a certain amount of "so what?" on this forum. I'm sure hard boulderers are far too cool to be interested in my latest E1 project. Not looking for the attention anyway.
" If it's of no interest to you why have you posted on this thread about it"
I'm bored! merely saying it can only really be appreciated by another boulderer which is probably why it recieved a certain amount of "so what?" on this forum. I'm sure hard boulderers are far too cool to be interested in my latest E1 project. Not looking for the attention anyway.
In reply to Mick:
"Pilgrimage has already been talked about for over 10 years"
MAybe, but by a very samll minority.
"Pilgrimage has already been talked about for over 10 years"
MAybe, but by a very samll minority.
In reply to Boulderphobe:
Dont agree, I reckon the current bouldering innovations are a good use of climbing time, even though it does not mean much to me. It is innovative & breaks new ground. I've long reckoned that IF was a bit of a high water mark for that sort of trad climbing, I mean it does'nt get many repeats and JD is f*ing ace so where is there to go afterwards ? So for the past however many years people have been exploring new territory and bringing new levels of performance in, having a good time etc
Signed: a middle aged climber
Dont agree, I reckon the current bouldering innovations are a good use of climbing time, even though it does not mean much to me. It is innovative & breaks new ground. I've long reckoned that IF was a bit of a high water mark for that sort of trad climbing, I mean it does'nt get many repeats and JD is f*ing ace so where is there to go afterwards ? So for the past however many years people have been exploring new territory and bringing new levels of performance in, having a good time etc
Signed: a middle aged climber
In reply to Mick:
I certainly wouldn't belittle anyones effort (not intentionally at least).
My question was more the philosophical one about what makes one ascent apparently more significant as another equally ground breaking effort.
Why does Indian Face appear to have captured the imagination more than Big Bang for instance ?
I certainly wouldn't belittle anyones effort (not intentionally at least).
My question was more the philosophical one about what makes one ascent apparently more significant as another equally ground breaking effort.
Why does Indian Face appear to have captured the imagination more than Big Bang for instance ?
In reply to GrahamD:
Dear Graham
You should really climb them, then you would find out.
Norrie
> Why does Indian Face appear to have captured the imagination more than Big Bang for instance ?
Dear Graham
You should really climb them, then you would find out.
Norrie
In reply to Norrie Muir:
I wish ! Seriously, why ? they are both milestone climbs in their own right. IF has been repeated 2 (3 times) but none has managed to repeat Big Bang yet and f9a is still pretty much state of the art.
> You should really climb them, then you would find out.
I wish ! Seriously, why ? they are both milestone climbs in their own right. IF has been repeated 2 (3 times) but none has managed to repeat Big Bang yet and f9a is still pretty much state of the art.
In reply to GrahamD:
I have to show my ignorance here - where is Big Bang and who was the climber?
Bob
I have to show my ignorance here - where is Big Bang and who was the climber?
Bob
In reply to Bob:
Dear Bob
Yet again you beat me to it.
However, routes that hold climbers admiration have a quality about them which is difficult to describe and over time it does not diminish.
Norrie
> I have to show my ignorance here - where is Big Bang and who was the climber?
Dear Bob
Yet again you beat me to it.
However, routes that hold climbers admiration have a quality about them which is difficult to describe and over time it does not diminish.
Norrie
In reply to Bob:
Big Bang was the first (by quite a margin) f9a put up in this country (and one of only a handful in the world at the time). It was put up by the then British champion.
One might have expected it to be much better known ?
Big Bang was the first (by quite a margin) f9a put up in this country (and one of only a handful in the world at the time). It was put up by the then British champion.
One might have expected it to be much better known ?
In reply to GrahamD:
Dear Graham
Climbers often associate hard routes with quality, however, hard routes come into fashion and go out again and quite rightly through time are not that hard anymore.
Quality routes stay in fashion longer, even ones that are climbed less often.
Norrie
> Big Bang was the first (by quite a margin) f9a put up in this country (and one of only a handful in the world at the time). It was put up by the then British champion.
> One might have expected it to be much better known ?
> One might have expected it to be much better known ?
Dear Graham
Climbers often associate hard routes with quality, however, hard routes come into fashion and go out again and quite rightly through time are not that hard anymore.
Quality routes stay in fashion longer, even ones that are climbed less often.
Norrie
In reply to Bob:
yeah, it'll never catch on.
I think Big Bang got enough publicity at the time, and when Pen Trwyn was 'cutting edge' and popular the route was probably better known, now that LPT is quieter then less people are probably aware of it's existence unless they've been climbing a while.
yeah, it'll never catch on.
I think Big Bang got enough publicity at the time, and when Pen Trwyn was 'cutting edge' and popular the route was probably better known, now that LPT is quieter then less people are probably aware of it's existence unless they've been climbing a while.
In reply to GrahamD:
The name rang a bell but I couldn't be sure of where I had heard it. Did Neil declare it as F9a or has it been regraded?
Bob
The name rang a bell but I couldn't be sure of where I had heard it. Did Neil declare it as F9a or has it been regraded?
Bob
In reply to Bob:
It was graded f9a at the time (I think by Neil). No one else has done it so I don't think it can have been regraded ?
It was graded f9a at the time (I think by Neil). No one else has done it so I don't think it can have been regraded ?
In reply to Norrie Muir:
So do you attribute the 'significance' of an ascent with the quality of the route ? and, in the context of this thread, will Pilgrimage prove to be an Indian Face route or a Big Bang Route ?
So do you attribute the 'significance' of an ascent with the quality of the route ? and, in the context of this thread, will Pilgrimage prove to be an Indian Face route or a Big Bang Route ?
In reply to GrahamD:
So do you attribute the 'significance' of an ascent with the quality of the route ? and, in the context of this thread, will Pilgrimage prove to be an Indian Face route or a Big Bang Route ?
Dear Graham
In general a routes gains their quality over time, no mater by whom or when the route was first climbed.
Having not climbed or have enough knowledge of any of the 3 routes, I will not speculate. However, Indian face has lasted the test of it’s short time.
Norrie
So do you attribute the 'significance' of an ascent with the quality of the route ? and, in the context of this thread, will Pilgrimage prove to be an Indian Face route or a Big Bang Route ?
Dear Graham
In general a routes gains their quality over time, no mater by whom or when the route was first climbed.
Having not climbed or have enough knowledge of any of the 3 routes, I will not speculate. However, Indian face has lasted the test of it’s short time.
Norrie
In reply to richardh:
I think that IF is held in high regard as it was a solution to a long (as in 30 years) standing problem on a major crag. Big Bang, whilst undoubtedly hard, probably suffers from the fact that it is really just another line of bolts up a very impressive piece of rock. I'm trying to remember if it is close to Statement or on the bit of rock next to Bad Bad Boy (gulp!)
Bob
I think that IF is held in high regard as it was a solution to a long (as in 30 years) standing problem on a major crag. Big Bang, whilst undoubtedly hard, probably suffers from the fact that it is really just another line of bolts up a very impressive piece of rock. I'm trying to remember if it is close to Statement or on the bit of rock next to Bad Bad Boy (gulp!)
Bob
In reply to Bob:
B.B is on the wall L of 'Statement'. Nobody could even see any holds on that area when I was there 12 years ago, let alone think of climbing it.
B.B is on the wall L of 'Statement'. Nobody could even see any holds on that area when I was there 12 years ago, let alone think of climbing it.
In reply to GrahamD: To us ordinary mortals, both IF and Pilgrimage are stupendously hard (for different reasons), with a reality that is difficult to appreciate.
However I suspect that IF has stood the test of time and is more significant because everybody can appreciate that a mistake means probable death. A mistake on Pilgrimage (correct me if I'm wrong) means landing on a mat and trying it again.
However I suspect that IF has stood the test of time and is more significant because everybody can appreciate that a mistake means probable death. A mistake on Pilgrimage (correct me if I'm wrong) means landing on a mat and trying it again.
In reply to Michael Hood:
Yes you're probably right. It is easier for people to understand fall=death than it is to relate to fall=try again, fall at same place dozens of times spread over weeks, maybe fall off going for the last hold one time before going back to falling off in the usual place,always trying to sustain that motivation and focus which spurs on any personal improvement, rather than give up as most would.
Yes you're probably right. It is easier for people to understand fall=death than it is to relate to fall=try again, fall at same place dozens of times spread over weeks, maybe fall off going for the last hold one time before going back to falling off in the usual place,always trying to sustain that motivation and focus which spurs on any personal improvement, rather than give up as most would.
In reply to coconutter:
On the contrary, I think it's simply that most find that very easy to understand and not that interesting.
As to all the people sneering at 7a boulderers and how we don't understand what's involved to do something like this: I love it! Anyone would think you did, the way you talk.
On the contrary, I think it's simply that most find that very easy to understand and not that interesting.
As to all the people sneering at 7a boulderers and how we don't understand what's involved to do something like this: I love it! Anyone would think you did, the way you talk.
In reply to andy farnell: I personally don't think these bits of rock you mention are of any significance at all ,I'm talking about multi pitch free ascents of massive rock walls of high difficulty that simply don't exist in the UK. These guys should use their talents on such projects instead of pissing around for several years jumping into a mattress in some scruffy hole.
In reply to Mick: I guess challange is perhaps the wrong discription ,worthwhile would be more accurate. It never ceases to amaze me why these chaps with superb climbing ability piss about for sometimes years on these scruffy 18' problems or keep jumping onto a mattress for the sake of a couple of hard moves.This seems to be the problem with many UK talented climbers who get focused on these pieces of choss when the rest of the world has lots of great multi pitch rock faces of extream difficuty waiting for first or free ascents.Making mountains out of molehills has never been so true as the current UK rock scene.Maybe they are just plain lazy, as they know they will get as much press from the rest of their equally short sighted admirers by dicking around on these projects that are near a pub.
In reply to Anonymous:
Erm, I realise that American geograpghy lessons are'nt the best in the world, but it may just be possible you have heard of the small place, a little north of the state of England which is called Scotland.
If you go there, and some of the islands around it (I'm not talking about Europe) you will find big rock walls still to be climbed without the use of direct aid. It's just that the weather and local biting insects are not condusive towards a long term, multi-pitch project.
Has it ever occured to you that, it may just be, people like to play on 50ft traverses in caves or 18ft vertical problems, not just on big rock walls. No, didn't think so.
Andy F
Erm, I realise that American geograpghy lessons are'nt the best in the world, but it may just be possible you have heard of the small place, a little north of the state of England which is called Scotland.
If you go there, and some of the islands around it (I'm not talking about Europe) you will find big rock walls still to be climbed without the use of direct aid. It's just that the weather and local biting insects are not condusive towards a long term, multi-pitch project.
Has it ever occured to you that, it may just be, people like to play on 50ft traverses in caves or 18ft vertical problems, not just on big rock walls. No, didn't think so.
Andy F
In reply to Anonymous: How can spending years on any project be described as lazy?
In reply to Anonymous:
1. This sounds like a bigger is better mentality; it’s almost like reading an ill-informed tabloid.
2. An individual decides what is a worthwhile way of spending their time, not an anonymous critic.
3. Lazy people don’t get good enough to climb 9A.
We could extend your theories infinitely, e.g. track sprinters are just plain lazy and the only reason they are usually well built is through excessive consumption of beer in the local pub, why didn’t Michael Johnson ever find himself some good fell-running to do instead of dicking around on those crappy man-made running tracks? It must be because every time he broke a record or won an event he knew he’d get lots of world wide press.
1. This sounds like a bigger is better mentality; it’s almost like reading an ill-informed tabloid.
2. An individual decides what is a worthwhile way of spending their time, not an anonymous critic.
3. Lazy people don’t get good enough to climb 9A.
We could extend your theories infinitely, e.g. track sprinters are just plain lazy and the only reason they are usually well built is through excessive consumption of beer in the local pub, why didn’t Michael Johnson ever find himself some good fell-running to do instead of dicking around on those crappy man-made running tracks? It must be because every time he broke a record or won an event he knew he’d get lots of world wide press.
In reply to andy farnell: I have been to the Scottish areas you mentioned, I have only managed to do the various easy sea stacks on Hoy and the Storr penisular. As you and your mates live over there then why don't you get cracking on those fairly large sea cliffs ...too many midges!! not nice weather!! , what bloody whimps.. Do you think the rest of the world has no flys or weather . I do realise some talented climbers prefer to play around on bits of choss next to the pub, but it really beats me why .. Suggest you check out your latest headlines about Peter Croft and his mate. ..
In reply to Mick:I agree most all you say . Yes Fell running is not for lazy people, and probably Michael Johnson is a lazy bugga,and he did not take up Fell running as its way too hard and would get very little recognition ( apart from Josh Naylor), Yes I think lazy people can get good enough to climb high grade short routes ... I've met quite a few. #2 I do not understand, you seem to be quoting the obvious??.. Also check out Crofts little outing... I really this its a little more impressive in the true tradition of rock climbing ,than pissing about in a scruffy hole with a bunch of mattresses or on a 18'"rock climb"... as you indicate ,,each to his own
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