UKC

I know there have been plenty of threads on this subject, but has a consensus for the best knot emerged ? I seem to recall someone on this site saying that they would, in future, tie a double overhand, watch the knots as the first climber descended, and then undo the backup knot if the first one tightened and failed to roll...sounded like a good idea.

In reply to stonewall:
if the ropes are the same diameter - then go for a overhand knot (tied with the ends facing the same way) with long tails

other than that - double fishermans knot

In reply to Ian:
On ropes of the same size you can't beat an overhand with long tails.
It's simple, easy to undo and tends not to jam.
I've never heard of one coming undone in use.
I believe it's now the standard technique for guides.

In reply to Ian:
right - I was assuming ropes of same diameter, leaving around 18 inches of tails

In reply to stonewall: The Knot I use is a reef knot with two stopper knots; effectively a double fishermans with a reef knot in between. It is easy to undo and doesn't seem to get stuck that often.

In reply to stonewall:
Don't know if yo've seen this before but it makes interesting reading:

http://www.needlesports.com/advice/abseilknots.htm

A guy died at Goblin Combe a few years ago when his overhand came undone.
As the above link says safe if used properly as with most things.
Cheers
Toby

In reply to Toby_W and Ian

so its the double overhand tight against each other, with long tails. I guess the slight increase in chance of snagging is worth it for the extra security of the second knot.

In reply to stonewall:

Well, I don't think you will ever get a concensus on this issue. People will always use the knot they are happiest with. I think the most prevalent knot is becoming a simple Overhand with nothing added or taken away. Its my favourite at least.

In reply to Anonymous:

I've had this sort of knot jam on me on at least 3 separate occasions in the last couple of years.

The overhand is the way to go - climbing back up + wasting time is dangerous too.

In reply to stonewall:

Dear stonewall

Use a knot that you are comfortable with, afterall it is you that is abseilling from the ropes.

Norrie

In reply to stonewall: Depends what your situation is. If we`re abbing off the bolts on multiple abbs we use a double fishermans. If its a one off ab with no obvious snags or we`re leaving the rope in place. we use a reef knot with a double overhand. The reef knot stops the overhand getting locked.Horses for courses. Just remember that too many good guys died on iffy abs. Generally I`m more concerned about what I ab off than what I ab with.
All the best
Rob

In reply to Rob Platt:
sorry Rob - whats the advantage of using double fishermans off bolts on multiple abbs ?

In reply to stonewall:

I know there have been plenty of threads on this subject, but has a consensus for the best political party emerged ? I seem to recall someone on this site saying that they would, in future, vote Lib Dems, watch to see if the economy falls, go back to voting conservative...sounded like a good idea.

Sounds like a complete faff if you ask me! No point in tying a knot if you don't trust it. Europian death knot for me every time (overhand knot!)

In reply to stonewall: and don't leave the tails too long, experienced people have rapped off the wrong end- to their death!

In reply to dark_star:

V good point. Last week we did 10 or so abs in a row on a couple of days in Switzerland - getting off long routes with bolted stations. We used a snugged down overhand with long tails. The knot was fine and didn't jam at all but, on at least two occasions, I threaded one of the long tails through my plate and realised during my triple checking procedure (ie. before unclipping my cowstail). I don't think I ever managed to thread both tails through my plate but, if you were rushing, easily done!

In reply to stonewall:
I ALWAYS use double fishermans for tyiing two ropes together. I know they take more time to tie and take longer to untie but for my money it is well worth it. I have read too many horror stories about overhand knots walking off the end of the rope, no matter how much of a tail you leave and how experienced the climber was in tying one. They don't call them EDKs (European Death Knots) for nothing. Abseiling and prussicing are the only times when your life is completly in the hands of your gear and nobody would ever use an EDK for a prussic loop. Double Fishermans

In reply to Michael Southam: with 24" tails, how many times will the knot need to roll to come off the end of the rope? I've never heard of this happening and I've read a lot of accident reports.

In reply to Michael Southam:

Some Mekin called them that because it initially looks iffy. They didn't get the name because they have caused deaths.

Oh, and it's fig-8s that roll severely; an overhand can roll but nowhere near as many times, and it will tighten.

In reply to Michael Southam:


How many instances do you know of where a correctly tied European Death Knot, with decently long tails, has failed?

I don't know of any.

I do know of several instances of double fisherman's jamming, resulting in scary prussics, or in one case, a very cold night out. The two most obvious that spring to mind are:

1) Tower Face of the Comb, last abseil. Fisherman's jammed. Retied with overhand after prussic. No problem with retreival.

2) Argentiere Icefalls descent. Second rap. Fisherman's will jam in a slot, EDK will not. This has happened to me once and to one of my friend's also. He had a very cold night waiting for someone to free his rope.

I can give more examples if you want...

In reply to mike swann:
Sorry, should have been Merkin.

In reply to Michael Southam: Read this if you are concerned about knot rolling/flipping:
http://www.needlesports.com/advice/abseilknots.htm

Obviously a double fishermans will not roll, but it does jam.

In reply to Glen:

hence the suggestion in my first post, with heavier person going first.

In reply to mike swann: really? I thought it was 'Mekon' as in Dan Dare's nemesis, what's the origin?

In reply to the last few posts:
There is something to the catching thing. I have never had a problem myself but will take extra care in future to help to avoid this scenario. However it is all about what you trust and there is no point puting your life in the hands of a knot you don't trust.

In reply to stonewall:

well said norrie muir.

In reply to stonewall: Anybody seen this months climber magazine?

Ian parnell gives some tips like Andy k does in high usually.

H talks about abbing of half on spectre he attachs his 9mm and spectre by tieing into a krab.. now i can't describe this very well here but he eliminates the risk of the spectre snapping (being thin) by having a fail safe with the other 9mm rope passing back through the krab that way if the spectre snaps he still has a single rope to ab on..

Anybody tried this it looks to me like it could get messy pulling ropes through but i supoose its better than you getting messy on the floor!

matt

In reply to dark_star:

Well, when I first came across the term I thought it was simply a corruption of American (you know, "Hey, Ahm Amerkin") , but then it turns out that a merkin is a pubic wig.

In reply to stonewall:

I mentioned the tying the second knot in case the first rolled, why not try it? If the knot DOES roll you can tie ANOTHER overhand further down then tie a double fishermans if you do not want to risk the overhand. That way, once tied you undo the overhand and the rope is still tied through the abseil loop. you do not want to drop one of the ropes while retying knots, and it would be VERY easy to do with them hanging down the cliff.

In reply to stonewall: Only because weve had less jams with the smaller knots. maybe luck has something to do with it.
All the best
Rob.

In reply to sutty:

good idea, and emphasizes that the second has an active role in the process. I raised the issue again because nobody doubts the safety of the figure of 8 for tying in, or the clove hitch for rigging your anchors, but when it comes to this crucial issue, on which your life depends, there seems still to be some controversy, which struck me (as a relative novice), as somewhat surprising.

In reply to stonewall not logged in:


I must be odd as I never tie in with a figure of eight, always a bowline, never use a clove hitch (or Italian hitch) for belays and always use a double fishermans for abseiling...

I've had ropes snag, and abandonned a few, but it's not necessarilly the knot that sticks, often it's just a minor tangle that has happened while the rope end was wipping down - not much any clever rope work or knotting can do about that, having good luck is the only solution.

Someone advised me even to take the tape off the end of the rope, the one that's often on when you buy it, as this, he said, could stick.

One thing for certain is never to try climbing up the single strand that's stuck, better cut off what you can and hope you can get down anyway.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

You can always get down - it's being able to walk away from the landing that's the crucial part...

In reply to Michael Southam:
However it is all about what you trust and there is no point puting your life in the hands of a knot you don't trust.



Unless the knot is safe and your judgement of it's safety is faulty.

ie you think the knot is dangerous when in fact its safe.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

The figure of eight is terribly prone to jamming in cracks, as many have pointed out, and I would no longer use it for serious abseils (partic mulitpitch) where there is a risk of the knot jamming on retrieval, only on a simple abseil from a sling, tree etc with rope clear of the rock. Better is a figure of eight on either side of a reef knot - much easier to undo. Otherwise, best to stick to the overhand, with long ends, scarily simple as it looks.

I'm really just summing up what others have said, but I've had more than enough experience of figure of 8's jamming on long abseil retreats in the alps.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Perhaps you are replying to someone else, or have you typed 'figure of 8' by mistake - I always use double fishermans..? Must be some mistake.

Whatever, it's a personal choice, the fisherman's knot seems more streamlined to me and it's easy to untie. I use it in all situations, can't see why one would use anything but the knot you thought best for something, though we don't all have to have the same opinion!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

OOPS - yes, a big mistake I meant Double Fisherman's. Have no idea why I typed that!!

I'd love to know what a figure of 8 with a reef knot in the middle would look like!

In reply to stonewall:
I always tie a reef knot (I think) the "left over right- right over left" one, finished with a half-itch or single fisherman's in each tail. This is very easy to undo as the fisherman's knots never tighten together.

Never seen this mentioned much. Is it a crap knot and have I been lucky or what?

Baz

In reply to Baz47: That knot is fine - it's just more prone to jamming when you retrive the ropes than an overhand.

In reply to Baz47:

It is an excellent knot - knot jammed in thirty years.

In reply to dark_star:


Good point, I think. I've done that (except not the death part, obviously) directly as a result of leaving extra long tails so as to be extra safe. That and being tired, pressured and daft.

In reply to stonewall:

Don't long tails tend to get stuck more than the knot?

Slightly different subject: don't people still use double fisherman's knot for rope slings and nuts?