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Over the last year, our club has been blessed with a large number of really keen new members. This is good news, especially as they have started to invest in racks and getting their own gear. Unleashed outdoors they are starting to push their grades on the lead, and a lot of them have been cruising up VS's starting to get on the HVS's. It's not impossible that we could soon have people with a dozen or so trad leads getting on the Extremes.
However, there are lots articles about on the dangers of indoor-trained climbers getting on harder trad routes, and so it raises few questions.
How much experience do you need before you push the grade?
How many VS's make a VS leader?
How many cam placements do you have to make to know when one is truly bomber?
If you can easily onsight 5b/c at the wall, should you automatically get on HVS/E1 outside?
Should you get on the multi-pitches until you can prussik / escape the system?
Obviously the answers to these questions depend strongly upon the individual climbers, but these are questions that I think they should be considering. There's surely no better way to learn than to get out and do it, but how soon should you expose yourselves to the greater dangers of the harder routes? I was just wondering what other people thought and if there were any strong opinions.
Later
John
However, there are lots articles about on the dangers of indoor-trained climbers getting on harder trad routes, and so it raises few questions.
How much experience do you need before you push the grade?
How many VS's make a VS leader?
How many cam placements do you have to make to know when one is truly bomber?
If you can easily onsight 5b/c at the wall, should you automatically get on HVS/E1 outside?
Should you get on the multi-pitches until you can prussik / escape the system?
Obviously the answers to these questions depend strongly upon the individual climbers, but these are questions that I think they should be considering. There's surely no better way to learn than to get out and do it, but how soon should you expose yourselves to the greater dangers of the harder routes? I was just wondering what other people thought and if there were any strong opinions.
Later
John
In reply to R Spisser:
When you're ready, or shortly before.
> how soon should you expose yourselves to the greater dangers of the harder routes?
When you're ready, or shortly before.
In reply to R Spisser:
Harder routes aren't necessarily more dangerous provided people can place their gear. It won't do the keener ones to take a safe lob off a short well protected E1.
Harder routes aren't necessarily more dangerous provided people can place their gear. It won't do the keener ones to take a safe lob off a short well protected E1.
In reply to GrahamD:
And conversely, if you can't place the gear then easier routes are potentially more dangerous since you're likely to get higher before you fall off and there's more in the way of ledges to hit on the way down
And conversely, if you can't place the gear then easier routes are potentially more dangerous since you're likely to get higher before you fall off and there's more in the way of ledges to hit on the way down
In reply to R Spisser: Its up to them I guess. From my experience after you get to HVS/E1, pushing your grade takes more time; especially to get really solid at a grade. I think this is beacause technically 5c is the limit of a lot climbers and it takes time and dedication to get confident at 6a and 6b. Because of this climbers need to get comfortable climbing right at their technical limit i.e. trusting their gear and not minding taking whippers. Obviously if you are talented and strong or do a lot of bouldering the above is bollocks!
In reply to R Spisser:
As long as you choose the right ones.
> If you can easily onsight 5b/c at the wall, should you automatically get on HVS/E1 outside?
As long as you choose the right ones.
In reply to Kipper:
I'd have thought there were relatively few outside HVS/E1s which even remotely resemble climbing wall 5b/c (UK or French grade).
To say someone can climb x on the wall and so should be able to do y trad is nonsense. Some will and some won't.
I'd have thought there were relatively few outside HVS/E1s which even remotely resemble climbing wall 5b/c (UK or French grade).
To say someone can climb x on the wall and so should be able to do y trad is nonsense. Some will and some won't.
In reply to R Spisser:
The issue is, are they competent with ropework and protection?? Regardless of their grade, that is the most important factor in whether they should push themselves or not.
If they are competent and skilled with the technical side, can place good protection and make sure they are safe in any situation, then by all means they can push themselves at whatever rate they like.
If they cannot be relied on to place good protection and have good ropework, they need to learn how to do it properly before even thinking of pushing themselves, and should be strongly encouraged to do so.
Simple as that. It's not about the standard it's about the skill.
The issue is, are they competent with ropework and protection?? Regardless of their grade, that is the most important factor in whether they should push themselves or not.
If they are competent and skilled with the technical side, can place good protection and make sure they are safe in any situation, then by all means they can push themselves at whatever rate they like.
If they cannot be relied on to place good protection and have good ropework, they need to learn how to do it properly before even thinking of pushing themselves, and should be strongly encouraged to do so.
Simple as that. It's not about the standard it's about the skill.
In reply to R Spisser:
A very good point you’re making and one I find very interesting...I can only offer my personal thoughts which are unqualified.
Trad climbing involves much more than technical climbing ability, it’s my guess that climbers coming from indoor walls frequently are shocked by how hard it can be to place and more importantly TRUST their gear.
There are many things to consider but everyone should have a grasp of potential load direction, correct position of gear (cams especially) and possibly the most important the rock you’ve put them in.
The question of how much experience a new climber needs before he/she push's the grade should basically come down to safety again. If a keen as mustard indoor wall climber breezes through (say HS4a trad) but the belayer is always having kittens because the gear he/she places is rubbish/deadly...then its not the grade they need to progress.
The anxious climber who's pro and actual climbing ability at HS4a are safe and proficient respectively, might want to up it a touch...you can mention this once but the words push and shove shouldn’t come into it.
How many VS make a VS leader??
Almost impossible to answer... VS leader of what, where at what altitude and on what rock type???
On Peak grit I would consider myself a VS leader done more than 30 of them loads at 4c and done a few HVS5a. That’s about were it ends let me give you an example. Went to Pembroke for the first time recently steep limestone a lot longer than iam used oh and err the sea lapping at the belay, I did climb VS but did I feel like a VS leader...more like VS learner. Multipitch on a long route at height altitude after a long walk in/climb on a rock type your not used to...iam sure you get the picture.
If you can easily on sight 5b/c at the wall, should you automatically get on HVS/E1 outside?
Again the equation you’re using from the wall is only taking into account one element of trad climbing, that of technical climbing ability.
An example would be someone doing 5b/c at the wall and then putting them on Cenotaph Corner, someone doing VDiff equivalent and putting them on spiral stairs/the wrinkle, its going to end in tears.
Should you get on the multi-pitches until you can prussik / escape the system?
I suspect many people myself included do MP routes and do know how to prussik, but how many can safely and effectively escape the system??
More importantly what do you do once free of the system, this may help Self-Rescue. David J.Fasulo ISBN 0934641978
I hope this of some use to you, as I say it’s unqualified just my personal thoughts on a very interesting topic.
With safe practise (and barring really shitty luck) we have a life time’s practise to improve grades technique, gear placements, mental strength, rope work, route finding etc etc etc. when you fall of and your gear rips you might not.
A very good point you’re making and one I find very interesting...I can only offer my personal thoughts which are unqualified.
Trad climbing involves much more than technical climbing ability, it’s my guess that climbers coming from indoor walls frequently are shocked by how hard it can be to place and more importantly TRUST their gear.
There are many things to consider but everyone should have a grasp of potential load direction, correct position of gear (cams especially) and possibly the most important the rock you’ve put them in.
The question of how much experience a new climber needs before he/she push's the grade should basically come down to safety again. If a keen as mustard indoor wall climber breezes through (say HS4a trad) but the belayer is always having kittens because the gear he/she places is rubbish/deadly...then its not the grade they need to progress.
The anxious climber who's pro and actual climbing ability at HS4a are safe and proficient respectively, might want to up it a touch...you can mention this once but the words push and shove shouldn’t come into it.
How many VS make a VS leader??
Almost impossible to answer... VS leader of what, where at what altitude and on what rock type???
On Peak grit I would consider myself a VS leader done more than 30 of them loads at 4c and done a few HVS5a. That’s about were it ends let me give you an example. Went to Pembroke for the first time recently steep limestone a lot longer than iam used oh and err the sea lapping at the belay, I did climb VS but did I feel like a VS leader...more like VS learner. Multipitch on a long route at height altitude after a long walk in/climb on a rock type your not used to...iam sure you get the picture.
If you can easily on sight 5b/c at the wall, should you automatically get on HVS/E1 outside?
Again the equation you’re using from the wall is only taking into account one element of trad climbing, that of technical climbing ability.
An example would be someone doing 5b/c at the wall and then putting them on Cenotaph Corner, someone doing VDiff equivalent and putting them on spiral stairs/the wrinkle, its going to end in tears.
Should you get on the multi-pitches until you can prussik / escape the system?
I suspect many people myself included do MP routes and do know how to prussik, but how many can safely and effectively escape the system??
More importantly what do you do once free of the system, this may help Self-Rescue. David J.Fasulo ISBN 0934641978
I hope this of some use to you, as I say it’s unqualified just my personal thoughts on a very interesting topic.
With safe practise (and barring really shitty luck) we have a life time’s practise to improve grades technique, gear placements, mental strength, rope work, route finding etc etc etc. when you fall of and your gear rips you might not.
In reply to R Spisser:
How long's a piece of string? I generally reckon a (insert grade here) leader is one who is capable of climbing the vast majority of routes at that grade and can rightfully fell pissed off if they have to rest or fall off. This could take weeks or it could take years.
The problem here is that wall grades are often soft so people who've only ever climbed indoors get the wrong idea about their ability. Just because you can climb 5b/c at the wall does not, under any circumstances, give you the ability to lead E1 on 'real' rock. Many rock types (grit in particular) require experience to get a feel for the rock which, imo, can often only be gained by working up through the easier grades first. The first time I went on grit (at Brimham), I had been happy at HVS/E1 in the Lakes but I ended up taking a lengthy slide from near the top of Stone Wall - not recommended but it taught me a valuable lesson.
If you're mainly climbing within your abilities, then there's probably no real need although it is a valuable thing to take time out to learn. All of my early climbing was on multi pitch in blissful ignorance of these techniques. That's not to say it was safe though...
For a climber starting trad from an wall-bred background, pushing their grade too soon is probably a bad idea. Trad routes with leader placed gear are a stark contrast to the well bolted safety nets of indoor walls, both physically and mentally. The climber needs to be happy with their own ability to place gear and with their ability to read the rock in front of them.
> How many VS's make a VS leader?
How long's a piece of string? I generally reckon a (insert grade here) leader is one who is capable of climbing the vast majority of routes at that grade and can rightfully fell pissed off if they have to rest or fall off. This could take weeks or it could take years.
> If you can easily onsight 5b/c at the wall, should you automatically get on HVS/E1 outside?
The problem here is that wall grades are often soft so people who've only ever climbed indoors get the wrong idea about their ability. Just because you can climb 5b/c at the wall does not, under any circumstances, give you the ability to lead E1 on 'real' rock. Many rock types (grit in particular) require experience to get a feel for the rock which, imo, can often only be gained by working up through the easier grades first. The first time I went on grit (at Brimham), I had been happy at HVS/E1 in the Lakes but I ended up taking a lengthy slide from near the top of Stone Wall - not recommended but it taught me a valuable lesson.
> Should you get on the multi-pitches until you can prussik / escape the system?
If you're mainly climbing within your abilities, then there's probably no real need although it is a valuable thing to take time out to learn. All of my early climbing was on multi pitch in blissful ignorance of these techniques. That's not to say it was safe though...
For a climber starting trad from an wall-bred background, pushing their grade too soon is probably a bad idea. Trad routes with leader placed gear are a stark contrast to the well bolted safety nets of indoor walls, both physically and mentally. The climber needs to be happy with their own ability to place gear and with their ability to read the rock in front of them.
In reply to R Spisser:
What sort of routes at VS are they cruising? Wall type or offwidth cracks that need jamming techniques? A vast difference. If they are only used to pulling holds and crimps they could have a shock on something like Black Slab, Robin Hoods Right Hand Buttress and others like it.
What sort of routes at VS are they cruising? Wall type or offwidth cracks that need jamming techniques? A vast difference. If they are only used to pulling holds and crimps they could have a shock on something like Black Slab, Robin Hoods Right Hand Buttress and others like it.
>
> How much experience do you need before you push the grade?
> How much experience do you need before you push the grade?
When you're comfortable at said grade - move on?
>
> How many VS's make a VS leader?
> How many VS's make a VS leader?
Lots.
>
> How many cam placements do you have to make to know when one is truly bomber?
> How many cam placements do you have to make to know when one is truly bomber?
Is this a serious question? Seriously... how on earth can I put a number to that? 1? 200?
>
> If you can easily onsight 5b/c at the wall, should you automatically get on HVS/E1 outside?
> If you can easily onsight 5b/c at the wall, should you automatically get on HVS/E1 outside?
Is this a serious question? Well, I guess it is, but surely you already know the answer to that one no???????
>
> Should you get on the multi-pitches until you can prussik / escape the system?
> Should you get on the multi-pitches until you can prussik / escape the system?
Up to you.
Seriously mate, unless you've had very little experience climbing outside this is quite an unsettling post. Or maybe you just haven't thought much about the questions. If you haven't climbed outside much then go and do it - preferably with someone who knows what they're doing.
In reply to R Spisser:80% of climbing is in the head.I had been climbing for 3 years (trad) climbing no harder than HVS and possibly the odd E 1 then i met someone really keen and literally overnight ( a season) i was climbing E4 on sight in the mountains and had soloed E5 on grit on sight, it is all in the head, i was probably good enough to do this for a year or so, but never tempted to push the boat out earlier, probably due to the fact that i wasnt encouraged by those i was climbing with at the time.
however this was in the eighties and climbing has changed so much since then, nowadays people just get on hard routes straight away but never have a good grounding in good ropework(ie leading VS for 2 years)
however this was in the eighties and climbing has changed so much since then, nowadays people just get on hard routes straight away but never have a good grounding in good ropework(ie leading VS for 2 years)
> Seriously mate, unless you've had very little experience climbing outside this is quite an unsettling post. Or maybe you just haven't thought much about the questions. If you haven't climbed outside much then go and do it - preferably with someone who knows what they're doing.
This is the point that I am trying to make. These guys are all getting really good, really fast. They are taking the initiative and getting out by themselves. The last time we saw some of them climb, it was top-roping severes wearing trainers. The main thing is that we got them started, so feel a responsibility for them.
I agree with previous posters that if the gear is good, then go for it. The questions were posted as the sort of questions that I think they should be asking themselves, but I just wanted to see what other people thought about them. How do they know when their gear is good enough?
In reply to R Spisser:
Good question. Generally, one just knows, it's a matter of mechanics not opinion. I.e. if a piece of gear is in a smooth constriction and will translate any downward force into wedging itself further in that constriction, has a large amount of metal in contact with the rock, is placed in solid rock, is not going to drop out of any hidden pods, is resistant to being lifted out and is extended and clipped properly, then it should be good.
But a good way to test it would be for them to place some gear near ground level, say how good it is, and then jump on it. Also get an experienced and skilled climber to have a look at their gear and give HONEST appraisal of it.
> How do they know when their gear is good enough?
Good question. Generally, one just knows, it's a matter of mechanics not opinion. I.e. if a piece of gear is in a smooth constriction and will translate any downward force into wedging itself further in that constriction, has a large amount of metal in contact with the rock, is placed in solid rock, is not going to drop out of any hidden pods, is resistant to being lifted out and is extended and clipped properly, then it should be good.
But a good way to test it would be for them to place some gear near ground level, say how good it is, and then jump on it. Also get an experienced and skilled climber to have a look at their gear and give HONEST appraisal of it.
In reply to R Spisser:
There's the rub. Climbing, and especially trad climbing, is ultimately down to self reliance. There is no 100% sure way of knowing that people will place good gear, even if its available (witness the number of people who take a long lob off the crack of Anvil Chorus at Bosigran).
If people are not happy with making their own judgement, they have probably gone a step too far. Luckily, the basic mechanics of wedgeing a lump of metal in a tapered crack are pretty easy to grasp so if the protection opportunity is obvious, most people will work it out pretty quickly !
> I agree with previous posters that if the gear is good, then go for it. The questions were posted as the sort of questions that I think they should be asking themselves, but I just wanted to see what other people thought about them. How do they know when their gear is good enough?
There's the rub. Climbing, and especially trad climbing, is ultimately down to self reliance. There is no 100% sure way of knowing that people will place good gear, even if its available (witness the number of people who take a long lob off the crack of Anvil Chorus at Bosigran).
If people are not happy with making their own judgement, they have probably gone a step too far. Luckily, the basic mechanics of wedgeing a lump of metal in a tapered crack are pretty easy to grasp so if the protection opportunity is obvious, most people will work it out pretty quickly !
In reply to R Spisser: Get people who know their stuff to second them and let them know if their gear is crap and tell them where else they could have put gear in.
I'd say that one can say they are a competant VS leader when they can onsight on most types of rock, and most types of climb (fist jams, offwidths, slabs etc. ).
As someone said above, if the right climbs are picked, then pushing the grade and taking a whipper could do some good.
I'd say that one can say they are a competant VS leader when they can onsight on most types of rock, and most types of climb (fist jams, offwidths, slabs etc. ).
As someone said above, if the right climbs are picked, then pushing the grade and taking a whipper could do some good.
> But a good way to test it would be for them to place some gear near ground level, say how good it is, and then jump on it. Also get an experienced and skilled climber to have a look at their gear and give HONEST appraisal of it.
Our trick on this to get the second to make comments on every gear placement as well as looking at how well the rope feeds through the draws. and belive me they are honest.
if the second is not happy he or she explains why, that way we both learn from the experance and as expected we are getting better over time and as such are confidence is increaseing to a level where we can move up a grade.
however when we move to another rock type, we start the learing process again. and if we get really stuck we ask people.
ash
In reply to R Spisser:
in addition to the points mentioned above, there are also questions of route finding and safe descent from multi-pitch climbs (even finding the right path to walk off, assuming one exists !). Reading the weather and moving fast enough to avoid losing the daylight are of course also crucial. These factors are all part of the package, which can take years to feel really comfortable about. Therefore I'd be very cautious about pushing it outside with limited experience.
in addition to the points mentioned above, there are also questions of route finding and safe descent from multi-pitch climbs (even finding the right path to walk off, assuming one exists !). Reading the weather and moving fast enough to avoid losing the daylight are of course also crucial. These factors are all part of the package, which can take years to feel really comfortable about. Therefore I'd be very cautious about pushing it outside with limited experience.
In reply to R Spisser:
I led my first VS on my third day on rock, and therefore assumed I was a VS leader.
I had quite a few shocks thereafter.
G
> How many VS's make a VS leader?
I led my first VS on my third day on rock, and therefore assumed I was a VS leader.
I had quite a few shocks thereafter.
G
In reply to R Spisser:
I have had the same dilemmas before as you are having now - getting someone started and then worrying that if something happened to them then you would blame yourself or someone would blame you.
I found that this disappeared after a while, maybe just because nothing happened(!), and/or because I had justified my actions to myself. I have no clear advice to give, only the reassurance that you will stop feeling so responsible for them after a while. Remember that they are responsible for themselves while they're climbing and they know that. I have little doubt that they wouldn't blame you if they hurt themselves. And if you know you haven't told them anything stupidly incorrect, then if anyone else decided to blame you for an accident, their blame is misplaced.
It's a natural worry you have, a necessary process - it's not an easy position to be in - but you will become more confident with it quite rapidly, I expect, and actually start to enjoy watching them develop.
I have had the same dilemmas before as you are having now - getting someone started and then worrying that if something happened to them then you would blame yourself or someone would blame you.
I found that this disappeared after a while, maybe just because nothing happened(!), and/or because I had justified my actions to myself. I have no clear advice to give, only the reassurance that you will stop feeling so responsible for them after a while. Remember that they are responsible for themselves while they're climbing and they know that. I have little doubt that they wouldn't blame you if they hurt themselves. And if you know you haven't told them anything stupidly incorrect, then if anyone else decided to blame you for an accident, their blame is misplaced.
It's a natural worry you have, a necessary process - it's not an easy position to be in - but you will become more confident with it quite rapidly, I expect, and actually start to enjoy watching them develop.
In reply to R Spisser:
my first lead was a VS onsight on rhyolite. the next lead i did was a severe in the lakes, then an hvs next to it.
after that i did loads of vs's as i slowly bought my rack... lots of mountain multipitch vs's, as well as single pitch vs/hvs. i also started doing 'micro routes' as in, things that your not sure if its a highball boulder or a route... did a lot of e1's and 2's... then got an e3 after top roping it (it was a 30' 6a solo over a horrendous landing that a mat wouldnt have protected)
ive seconded much harder stuff, and feel that i've got a really good experience and knowledge of ropework and safety techniques... but i havent really pushed myself on trad yet. i've mostly been concentrating on my bouldering where i can confidently onsight north wales v4's and v5's and work v6's and 7's.
next season is going to be my trad pushing time... i hope to get solid onsighting multipitch e2 by this time next year.
i think hard leading, once youve got the rope/pro as second nature, is all in the head. i'm plenty strong enough, with enough stamina to be leading them, but i've got to remember that when i'm at the bottom of a route chickening out!!
oh, and i dont think that indoor leading is anything to do with trad. i get shit scared leading indoors, but i'm happy to run out most of a rope length outdoors!!
dave
my first lead was a VS onsight on rhyolite. the next lead i did was a severe in the lakes, then an hvs next to it.
after that i did loads of vs's as i slowly bought my rack... lots of mountain multipitch vs's, as well as single pitch vs/hvs. i also started doing 'micro routes' as in, things that your not sure if its a highball boulder or a route... did a lot of e1's and 2's... then got an e3 after top roping it (it was a 30' 6a solo over a horrendous landing that a mat wouldnt have protected)
ive seconded much harder stuff, and feel that i've got a really good experience and knowledge of ropework and safety techniques... but i havent really pushed myself on trad yet. i've mostly been concentrating on my bouldering where i can confidently onsight north wales v4's and v5's and work v6's and 7's.
next season is going to be my trad pushing time... i hope to get solid onsighting multipitch e2 by this time next year.
i think hard leading, once youve got the rope/pro as second nature, is all in the head. i'm plenty strong enough, with enough stamina to be leading them, but i've got to remember that when i'm at the bottom of a route chickening out!!
oh, and i dont think that indoor leading is anything to do with trad. i get shit scared leading indoors, but i'm happy to run out most of a rope length outdoors!!
dave
In reply to alfa->bus:
"
oh, and i dont think that indoor leading is anything to do with trad. i get shit scared leading indoors, but i'm happy to run out most of a rope length outdoors!! "
prolly cos outdoors your leading well within your limit and indoors you are on the edge of it.
"
oh, and i dont think that indoor leading is anything to do with trad. i get shit scared leading indoors, but i'm happy to run out most of a rope length outdoors!! "
prolly cos outdoors your leading well within your limit and indoors you are on the edge of it.
In reply to alfa->bus:
Strange as you sound a very good (by the standards of general punterdom). I find it the other way round and lots of indoor routes seem to be massively overgraded unless 6a really equals VS 4c.
> (In reply to R Spisser)
>
> oh, and i dont think that indoor leading is anything to do with trad. i get shit scared leading indoors, but i'm happy to run out most of a rope length outdoors!!
>
> oh, and i dont think that indoor leading is anything to do with trad. i get shit scared leading indoors, but i'm happy to run out most of a rope length outdoors!!
Strange as you sound a very good (by the standards of general punterdom). I find it the other way round and lots of indoor routes seem to be massively overgraded unless 6a really equals VS 4c.
In reply to Woker:
yeah, you are probably right... i always find that i get obsessed by trying to get to the next clip... whereas on trad, i concentrate on climbing, and put in gear when its available.
also, i dont like the tall thin rooms that are inherent to indoor leading... they falsely accentuate the height, and my mild fear of heights doesnt like it. which again is odd coz exposure 1000' up the side of a mountain doesnt bother me (i suppose i'm plodding then though so point taken!!)
dave
yeah, you are probably right... i always find that i get obsessed by trying to get to the next clip... whereas on trad, i concentrate on climbing, and put in gear when its available.
also, i dont like the tall thin rooms that are inherent to indoor leading... they falsely accentuate the height, and my mild fear of heights doesnt like it. which again is odd coz exposure 1000' up the side of a mountain doesnt bother me (i suppose i'm plodding then though so point taken!!)
dave
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