/ VIDEO: Bakhchisarai - Crimean Peninsula
Features selling illegally occupied territories close to war zones as tourist destinations perhaps not necessarily the best idea?
strange atmosphere whilst watching the film. some time ago i've been climbing together with a friend from russia visiting the frankenjura. a really great character. climbing brings people together. but it can probably also be used to separate people and deepen conflicts?
Unfortunately I don't think anyone here would get insurance to go there!
"The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to Donetsk oblast, Luhansk oblast and Crimea...
Russia illegally annexed Crimea on 21 March 2014 and tensions remain high. The FCO is not able to provide consular services to anyone in Crimea.
It’s illegal under Ukrainian law to enter internationally recognised Ukrainian territory through a border point that isn’t currently controlled by the Ukrainian authorities. If you do so, you risk arrest or a fine, and you may be subject to a travel ban. International border crossings that aren’t currently under the control of the Ukrainian authorities include all land border crossings into Donetsk oblast, many of the land border crossings into Luhansk oblast, all air and sea ports in Crimea and the Kerch Bridge road and rail crossing into Crimea. Information on border crossing procedure, entry/exit regulations and checkpoints are provided at the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine website."
"There are no artificial holds,...... maybe some were made a bit bigger" I'm pretty sure, if you make the holds bigger, that makes them kind of definitely artificial!
Yes, but the rock is pretty soft, so sometimes they becomes bigger
If you ever watched Sean Bean giving Bony and the Frenchies what for in Sharpe and wondered where all those fab looking limestone crags were used in a lot of the backdrops
> Features selling illegally occupied territories close to war zones as tourist destinations perhaps not necessarily the best idea?
I agree. However I would like to see and learn more about what life in Crimea is like. If the film had included some of that context in a neutral way alongside the climbing parts (the second half of which I enjoyed) then it could have been really worth watching.
Have you seen the state of London these days mate? I'd fancy my chances in some village in the middle of Crimea over that any time. We can't just pretend these people don't exist and shun their positive contributions to climbing because there's a bit of political conflict going on at some border point a few hundred miles away.
You can enter the country fine if you treat it as Russian territory.
it’s very easy to enter Crimea from the Russian side. That involves flying into Moscow or St Petersburg on a valid Russian visa – or without it, if you are a citizen of Israel, Turkey and most South American countries – and then taking an onward domestic flight into Simferopol. The Kerch bridge, due to be opened in 2018, will simplify travel for motorists and re-establish the railway connection between Crimea and mainland Russia. Until it’s open, ferries carry passengers and cars across the straits.
> You can enter the country fine if you treat it as Russian territory.
Thus condoning the seizing of territory by armed force & placing your own interest in a cheap scenic holiday above any larger issues that might be involved in that.
"the state of London these days"? Are you trying get on the Russia Today payroll? Fancy joining Katie Hopkins for a Putin apologia romp around St Petersburg?
"some political conflict on a border point" - 10,000 casualties and the downing of MH17?
Have a word with yourself, "mate".
Bakhchisarai was the capital of Tatar Crimea. Tatars were deported from Crimea by Stalin with associated deaths of 25-50%. They then suffered in extreme poverty in Central Asia. Returning after 1989 they had to start from scratch with no property or land. After beginning to re-establish themselves under Ukrainian governance they have faced extreme intimidation from Russia since annexation in 2014:
Posting this Russian video on UKC is incredibly irresponsible.
You need to read some more books about history. Not only theguardian )))
Or better go climbing. Looks like a lot of professional politicans here but not rock climbers.
Amateur politicians Alex, just amateurs. None of us are serious enough to get paid for it! ;-)
I’ve got a friend who’s a Crimean Tartar. According to her it’s true.
I first climbed in Bakhchisarai in 1994. I've climbed in Foros, Marcheka etc etc.
How many of the 64 Ukrainian political prisoners held by Russia and protested by Oleg Sentsov (on hunger strike) are Tatar?
To help you, here's a list of them from a Russian newspaper, since you don't like the Guardian:
Maybe you should promote videos of dyadya vova my s toboi (seems this forum doesn't accept cyrillic) instead?
Heartening that you think professional politicians are defined by sincerity
Perhaps the implied sarcasm didn't come over.
Or just accepting that most people living there just want to get on with life and are very welcoming and hospitable people. We had a great holiday in Crimea before it was annexed and it was a stunning place with great people.
The politics of the area has been a mess for a really long time and many people feel shafted by it.
If you can go there safely, I would totally recommend it. So much rock, stunning mountains, cave villages, Byzantian ruins. Fantastic place.
You're right, Crimea is a fantastic place. I've been visiting regularly for over 20 years and have many close friends there. They are ethnic Russians and are very pleased that Crimea has rejoined Russia. If Crimeans had campaigned to peacefully re-join Russia I would have supported that goal. It's better for them, and probably also better for Ukraine in the long term (to have a less divided country).
But the method of annexation, the lies, aggression, breaking of agreements and subsequent persecution of those opposed to the annexation changes the equation. Support, tacit or otherwise, for the annexation translates, de facto, into support for Putin, and that means a free pass for Litvinenko, Skripal, MH17, brexit meddling, etc etc.
Of all the locations in Crimea, Bakhchisarai is the most sensitive to Tatars. Tatars are the group most harmed by the annexation. Promoting tourism to that location on a UK website, when the UK is directly targeted by malign Putin actions, should questioned, at least.
Russia's an amazing interesting country. Damn shame Putin's f*cking it (and the world) up so much and screwing the Russian people over and is murdering LGBT people. Everyone's right about the politics, even if I am a Ukraine sympathiser, but even ignoring that:
Any climbing at all in Russia just isn't worth the faff of paying, getting an invite, applying and sending your passport to the embassy for a fricking Russian Visa for. If you want to go there travelling anyway, then fair enough. But honestly? Just how badly do you want to see millions of people living in poverty just for yourself, in order to go the Minski and Red Square and The Motherland Calls and save £10 on a bottle of vodka?
Just go to France Spain or Thailand, or even China
that is until brexit however, after which we'll all probably have to send our passports off to an embassy, just to go across the channel.
If I was to choose where I travelled to based on the integrity of the country's leaders, I'd never leave my house!
I am certainly no Putin fan, but a few climbers going on holiday are not going to make any difference either way to his politics. Going somewhere does not indicate support.
If spending tourist dollars and encouraging others to do the same doesn't constitute support, then what does? Your definition must set a high bar. Fighting with the Donbass separatists?
Of course, you must go where you wish. But if you encourage others on a public website then you invite scrutiny.
Regarding your casual association of Putin with all international leaders, you might want to look up whataboutism:
I just feel that there is no place for us to be high and mighty on any moral grounds. Our leaders might be more subtle, but I think our arms sales to the middle east are just as bad. I will stop travelling to England accordingly!
My 'tourist dollars' are a drop in the ocean on the Russian economy. If I do support the economy, it is going to be mostly the local economy, which will mostly benefit the local people. Yes, my visa fee will go centrally, but most of my (very small) spending capacity will help the locals. I do not blame the locals for Putin. Many of the locals in this area are Tartars and have no real voice anywhere.
It's not so much whataboutery, there's no denying that Putin is a top class idiot and dangerous man, but that's not how I decide my travel destinations. If I do, then are we condoning the American gun violence by still going there? What about supporting the media restrictions and generally supporting communism by going to China? Going somewhere does not show support for their regimens, and the tourist dollar is a drop in the ocean compared to Russia's trade and business incomes. It will make no difference to them what so ever if I go or not
Out of interest, would you use the same arguments to justify a climbing trip to Israel?
> I just feel that there is no place for us to be high and mighty on any moral grounds. Our leaders might be more subtle, but I think our arms sales to the middle east are just as bad.
Thanks for a textbook example of whataboutism
> I will stop travelling to England accordingly!
Yes, revel in the moral high ground of the country that builds the UK's white elephant aircraft carrier warships
> My 'tourist dollars' are a drop in the ocean on the Russian economy. If I do support the economy, it is going to be mostly the local economy, which will mostly benefit the local people. Yes, my visa fee will go centrally, but most of my (very small) spending capacity will help the locals. I do not blame the locals for Putin.
2018 elections, Crimea had >90% voting for Putin, second only to Chechnya.
> Many of the locals in this area are Tartars and have no real voice anywhere.
Yup, because Tatar leadership has been imprisoned by Putin or is in exile. The point of the video for this thread was promoting Russian led tourism to the Tatar's most revered site.
> It's not so much whataboutery, there's no denying that Putin is a top class idiot and dangerous man, but that's not how I decide my travel destinations. If I do, then are we condoning the American gun violence by still going there? What about supporting the media restrictions and generally supporting communism by going to China? Going somewhere does not show support for their regimens, and the tourist dollar is a drop in the ocean compared to Russia's trade and business incomes. It will make no difference to them what so ever if I go or not
You are conflating different things. No-one is telling you not to visit Russia, generically, or anywhere else.
You encouraged people to visit Bakhchisarai on a public forum based on a promotional video posted by Russians. The most revered location for the most persecuted group in the forcibly annexed territory of Crimea.
Claiming that your actions make no difference anyway is the same as claiming that arms sales make no difference (because someone else will sell them otherwise). You can't have it both ways.
You might also want to read about the punitive psychiatric treatment meted out to Ilmi Umerov, imprisoned Tartar head of Bakhchisarai:
The thing is, I think we agree on a lot, but are coming from a different angle.
I agree that the Russians have horribly persecuted the Tartars. I suspect the strong support in the last election is that there are very few Tartars that are registered /allowed to vote. And even if they were allowed to, there's not an unbiased media from which to make an informed decision. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia shipped people in to vote for Putin in Crimea to make it look like a success for him.
I am under no illusions as to how awful the man is. I have spent significant time living in Russia! But, I don't think my tourism supports him in anyway.
I couldn't actually view the video, and was just responding to the chat about travelling there, but I'm presuming it's Russian climbers promoting the area, not the politicians? I was taken there by some Crimeans who were very sensitive to the Tartar plight and explained the issues to me in a very sensitive way, and I didn't get the impression that they minded climbing and general happening. Maybe I'm wrong?
You visited Crimea before annexation. Here is an article published on a Crimean news website yesterday:
It reports the latest opinion polling which shows that Russians view the UK as the world's most hostile country to Russia.
Support for that view has more than doubled since last year. Why? What changed? The Skripal poisoning.
Putin sanctions the use of chemical weapons in the UK, weeks before the election. The UK objects. Putin run TV portrays this as UK plot, a provocation, and paints Russia as the victim, again. Putin experiences a bounce in popularity and increased support. Crimea votes overwhelming for Putin (even given the probability of some irregularities).
Then, a bunch of Crimean Russians post a video on a UK website saying - "come to our lovely country for fun and tourism". With the tacit message - "we are just simple friendly climbers, not responsible for anything political". But they vote for Putin - virtually guaranteed.
Imagine the fear if you were a restaurant employee in Salisbury after the Skripal poisoning. The "but they're nice guys individually" doesn't cut it anymore.
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