UKC

Jake Chapman writes about the taboo subject of pooing outdoors and what we should do with our poo...

One spring, Heather Morning and her fellow rangers witnessed a blooming of a different kind in the Cairngorms National Park: human faeces, preserved by the previous winter's snow, thawing in the springtime sun. Heather knew that the piles of faeces were left by groups of snow-holers. It just so happened that the best snow-holing sites sat right next to high level mountain springs, making the faeces potential pollutants of the water supply. 'We realised there was a big issue and that we needed to do something about it,' Heather says.

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In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I've never needed to shit at the crag in the US or UK. Barring health issues, I don't think you need to for single day stuff. I don't want a poo bag dispenser at Stanage but you're going to find the odd shit there despite a toliet at the bottom. 

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I think Dave the Rave deserves special mention for his efforts to keep Snowdonia national park looking.... booty full.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Yep, he's a shoe-in for that one.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Maybe BMC owned crags should have portaloos or composting toilets near them...  

Rifle, Frankenjura and I'm sure other crags around the World have them...

In reply to datoon:

I've been climbing in the Frankenjura for 30 years and never seen one.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

A cultural shift is definitely required in my opinion.

Maybe if the Scots sorted out there terrible attitude towards quality beer and food, people wouldn't have the kind of gut rot after a night out that necessitates the deposition of an 'on-sight' jobbie.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles: I'm not sure there's a problem in England. I might be lucky but I don't think I've ever discovered anything unpleasant at an English crag. Not claiming we have superior habits, more the geography.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Having seen the minefields of Fontainebleau and Kalymnos (amongst several other Euro venues), I think we very do much have superior habits actually.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Because we do not have deserts and equivalent to national parks???

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Because we do not have deserts and equivalent to national parks??

In reply to jimtitt:

I’ve not climbed much in frankenjura, but every crag we climbed at had a blue portaloo, usually in the nearest car park (and always spotlessly clean).

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Carrying it out is the way to go.  A suitable plastic bag in the rucksack 'just in case' and when wild camping takes up hardly any space or extra weight.  It should just be something you carry when you are hillwalking.  I don't see why they need to be free or provided from dispensers with big signs. 

Unless they've got a budget to clean them regularly there's no point in installing toilets in more remote areas, they'll just get so manky nobody will use them. 

In reply to Alex Riley:

I've seen a few in walkers parking spaces (usually accompanied by notices banning overnight camping as vanlyfe becomes a plague) but maybe I don't go to the right crags.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

The real issue is that people don't give a sh!t about where they sh1t. We were having our lunch half way up the North face of Tryfan when a bloke just below us dropped dropped his bowels between some rocks and then dropped a load of tissues on top. It was so blatant, there were people walking around less than 10 feet away.

If I ever need to go (very rarely), it's usually after lunch and I pack it out in the bag I had my sandwiches in. Not ideal with using plastic but better than leaving rank turds around the place.

In reply to gethin_allen:

I'm not sure that would work for me as the urge often comes before lunch.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Do you do that currently Tom? I can see it for an overnighter, but for longer trips I could see it being a bit of a bother. 

it Seems from the article that responsible burying is still promoted in Scotland - is there evidence about which approach is best? Or indeed the dreadful practices of those that originate south of the border?

(I appreciate that in some cases eg the snowholing one, packing it out is the most practicable one)

In reply to Dr.S at work:

I was surprised at the attitude expressed by the author's friends: "recently, my friends scoffed at my taking at a trowel on a climbing trip to Scotland and my recommending that they use it—'There's absolutely no way I'm ever doing that!'"

Really? Who are these people? Presumably the same who just poo in streams or on that nice grassy sward over there. 

In reply to Siward:

Without wanting to condone careless pooing, how long does it take an exposed turd to dry out/break down to an acceptably inoffensive level? I've always been a burier on camping trips, but have wondered if maybe 'exposed on a rock' might not actually be better if it dried out and disintegrated in a few days

In reply to Dr.S at work:

Yeah, for wild camping it works fine for me.   I've been doing long distance trails and usually I pass by a bin within a few hours of starting to walk.  Probably more of a nuisance if you were going somewhere remote and staying there for a few days.

In reply to nufkin:

I read that in the desert leaving it on a rock is apparently the preferred method (if you don't pack it out) as there is no bacteria in the sand to aid decomposition so the sun will help destroy the pathogens.     Also i hear if you smear it about it dries quicker and the wind carries it away.  

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Nobody has mentioned people density, climate or the difference between poo and paper.

If the people density is sufficiently low, pooing on the open ground and letting nature take it's course (in Scotland it's basically going to be rain washing it into the soil in a couple of days) has always been the way I've seen as perfectly logical. There are plenty of birds and wild animals that poo and die and rot all over the place and this obviously doesn't cause a problem for water supplies in the main as it's going on everywhere and all the time. I can see the problem when visitor density becomes an issue but having climbed and travelled all over Scotland, the problems are very rarely human excrement and much more commonly...

Toilet paper - it doesn't break down very quickly and is a problem. People should be encouraged to burn it or carry it out. This is the issue in my book. In Scotland it's pretty difficult to cause a proper fire when the water table is above ground level (which is 90% of the time) and if it is particularly dry, use some common sense with where you burn your paper or just put it in a bin instead. Speaking personally, I can't remember the last time I left toilet paper just lying around outdoors and packing it out if you can't burn it is a lot less nasty and grim than packing out your whole poo.

People have mentioned places like Kalymnos and Font as comparisons but these places differ greatly from Scotland - they have hundreds, if not thousands of times the visitor density of Scottish crags and, at least in Kalymnos, it basically never rains so excrement tends to sit there rather than become part of the soil.

I do take exception to the idea that National Parks UK are finding it hard to monetise visitors because they can't charge entry fees. It costs £65 for an entire year of unlimited access to ALL national parks in the USA where, at least when I was last there, there was mainly free parking. In the UK pay-and-display car parks are popping up all over the place in National Parks where it costs up to £5 a day to park your vehicle. So who is really making more money per visitor?! Taxing visitors to access wild places isn't a policy in the USA and it shouldn't be in the UK.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Great idea.

More education is definitely needed. I believe most responsible outdoors people would bury/cary out their waste.

If we do not act responsibly in this regard our crags will end up looking like Font (i.e. a sh*t hole)

In reply to henwardian:

But the feces of (infected) humans poses a higher risk than other animals feces as it is more likely to contain pathogens that are harmful to us (especially during decomposition).  To humans the most dangerous feces to come into contact with is humans and then dogs.  Therefore greater concentrations of it in the wild especially near water sources poses an elevated risk to them.  The time it takes for it to decompose is longer than you think depending on conditions it could be over years.  Just because it is out of sight doesn't mean it is out of mind. 

The feces of herbivores poses little risk to humans. If you are fit and well it is technically safe to eat your own feces (not that anyone would want to).   

In reply to Inhambane:

For much of the time the whole of the highlands of Scotland looks like a water source...

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Leaving aside the emotive issue of charging, the fact is that national parks in the US (and many other parts of the world) are very different from those in the UK (where they are basically areas where special town and country planning rules apply) and are able to exercise much tighter controls over visitors.  There is also a much greater awareness of the preparations needed for going into true wilderness, which often doesn't arise in the UK's more domesticated countryside.

There is certainly a cultural problem which needs to be overcome by education.  However there's also a lack of other facilities - for example, where (other than the Cairngorms) can you get suitable bags for carrying out waste? Improvising with sandwich bags or supermarket carriers can have unfortunate consequences as they often cannot be properly sealed.

The other problem is that many of the culprits may be ordinary visitors who are even less aware of the issue and less likely to be prepared.  I'm sure it is these people and not climbers who go under boulders and at the foot of routes, believing they have found an out-of-the-way spot and not realising it is well-used.  However there was a recent thread here complaining about climbers "going" in caves, so we are not always very aware of how others use the countryside.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

there's a very obvious reason thats not been touched on - and there are others, described above - and its called predators....

people take great care with their shit in the US and Canada because leaving a turd out is begging for a bear, or half-a-dozen wolves to follow you around. they take the same care over food for the same reason.

we leave turds, and litter, out in the outdoors because - while it may look bad - its not going to kill you. thats not a luxury they have, so they don't.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

As with everything in life, a minority affects the majority. Education is of course the way forward to reduce the poo problem but you’ll always have folk who go at the foot of the crag. I don’t think these are exclusively climbers though. 

We made it a social faux pas to let your dog shit in the street, now everyone bags it and many even take it home with them rather than decorating the adjacent trees with bags. It reduced the original problem massively but created another problem entirely. 

We get lots of design students on here declaring they have an idea for a new piece of kit, maybe one reading this can think about a lightweight trowel that folds small and holds a few sheets of paper?? 

(BTW, nobody likes carrying around a warm turd even if it’s in a bag. An old chalk bag with belt makes a great poobag and treats holder when out with the dog, bagged up poos can be dropped in the chalk bag to take home rather than in your pocket)

In reply to Inhambane:

Well, that's the solution to the entire problem, right there.

In reply to wilkie14c:

That was done yonks ago by Tim Macartney Snape's company 'Sea To Summit'. The product was originally called the iPood - until spoilsports from Apple came calling. See https://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/22/ipood/

In reply to datoon:

The BMC considered installing a composting toilet at Horseshoe Quarry in the Peak, but they decided against it as emptying the compost and just generally managing the toilet would be too costly. I do agree though, more composting toilets would be ideal!

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I just double bag it and carry it out. Far less hassle than carrying a trowel and digging holes. I spend a large chunk of my life carrying dog pooh in little bags, so it's not a great hardship for me.

In reply to Howard J:

Any pet shop will have poo bags.  If you are that worried double up.  Get a container with a screw top and rubber seal, put the bags in there.  It's really not complicated.  

In reply to wilkie14c:

If only all that were true. 

In reply to Mike Stretford:

You are lucky! I think it's a case of knowing where to look. Most people will wander off to secluded spots, so unless you're doing the same you're unlikely to find any turds in plain sight. Well, unless you were climbing at Water-cum-Jolly last summer: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156137052457187&set=p.1015613...

In reply to nufkin:

Spreading is only recommended in hot and arid places, like deserts. You'll be waiting a long time for the sun to come out in the UK, and even then I don't think it's powerful enough to kill off all of the bacteria.

In reply to Jake Chapman:

I must admit I don't have the knowledge. Anyway, it's mingin......this is rural England not some wildness! They should go back to the car, drive to the nearest pub, buy half a soft drink, and loose a few kilos! And that's on the odd occasion people forget to go before or for some reason get taken by surprise.

Blocked at work, fortunately.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Well to be fair, their ipods are shit 

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Car and van roadside/carpark camping is just as bad an issue (as mentioned in Dan's recent article on car camping in Scotland.)

There appears to be a strong feeling amongst many van dwellers in web-land that you can just crap in the woods -- long as you dig it in -- because toilets in vans are stinky no no's that nobody would want. 

And that might have been OK years ago, when van living wasn't that popular.  But now...everyone seems to van it.  And the density of car/van camping has exploded in Scotland and elsewhere.  So places like the North Face car park at the Ben in winter in particular, must now have a ground crap saturation density per metre approaching near 100%.

And that is from the considerate dig-in crappers.

In New Zealand they basically outlawed rental "campers" that don't contain toilets ("Wicked camper" style things), and introduced certification for private campers/vans. 

That probably is the way to go up here.  Toilets on board or no parking.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

This one? https://www.ukhillwalking.com/gear/camping/accessories/sea_to_summit_reinfo...

In reply to Jake Chapman:

Short of actually defecating into a water source (with historic and contemporary cholera epidemics illustrating the dangers of this), I wonder how transmittable such bacteria would be? If I, hypothetically, were to leave a turd five metres from a river, say, it seems like there's effectively five metres of filtration between source and destination, from a microscopic point of view. I wouldn't, and even if I did I'd bury it, but in principle perhaps it's not as risky as traditionally feared 

In reply to nufkin:

But the problem shouldn't be thought of as a one off turd, but more so the accumulation of them over time.  The greater the accumulation the greater the risk to the environment.

Also there are many other variables that would need to be considered when burying.  Height of ground water, other animals disturbing the land (dogs, birds, insects) porosity of the soil, topography of the land, rainfall etc.  

I would also assume that most people are not 100% effective at burying and that there would be some residual surface level contamination as well.   

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles: I didn't realise this was such a problem. Anyway with Christmas round the corner we have the perfect stocking filler for climbers with unpredictable bowels

https://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/products/beco/beco-compostable-poo-bags--...

No excuses now.

In reply to Inhambane:

Seems like there's potential here for a proper study, and some nice graphs showing quantity of pathogens against distance from source and such

In reply to wilkie14c:

I did have the idea of a Tupperware type container with a flexible membrane in the middle and lids at each end. It starts off the weekend/trip full of sandwiches and as you empty the sandwiches from one end you would fill the other end with the results and pack it out...

fairly obviously never going to catch on.  But taking doggy poo bags from pet shops with you isn’t a bad alternative is it...

In reply to Wimlands:

How about this     

https://www.houseuk.com/scullery-pop-n-prep-bento-cup-21cm

In reply to marsbar:

I was going to patent it and call it the snacker-crapper

In reply to Rob Parsons:

I have one of these. OK in sand or soft ground but it struggles with anything tougher. Probably worth carrying a heftier trowel most of the time.

For anyone doing 'van life' and wanting to be more responsible about it; you probably already have a small bin. Buy some of those portable toilet refill bags from needlesports https://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Accessories/Medical-Cosmetic/Clean-W... and, should the need arise when there is nowhere good to go, you can stretch this over your bin and use it as a makeshift loo. 

The rise in popularity of vanning it is definitely leading to issues.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

I've got an original iPood from before Apple stopped the fun, every time I bury an emergency dump with it, I feel like I'm sticking it to the man. 

Oddly I'm also a long time user of an iPod for all my podcast consumption - and I have never once mixed it up with my poo burying trowel.

In reply to FreshSlate:

You are setting a great example that I wish everyone would follow. Unfortunately, the evidence is that there are people who don't have your determination or bowel control. I don't want to see poo bag dispensers anywhere, but I would much rather see them at car parks and entry points than run the risk of treading on a turd, having my dog roll in human excrement, or seeing "French Flowers" (aka toilet paper) everywhere. We have 60 million people packed onto a small island and if only a few get caught short that is a lot of sh!t to deal with.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Since my big walling experience I took up the habit of taking a pooh bag with me in my first aid gear. They are cheap to buy from Needle sports and contain all that you need to deal with the unforeseen pooh at the crag. Why not make that part of your climbing gear you take with you. 

https://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Accessories/Medical-Cosmetic/Clean-W...

In reply to jimtitt:

Me neither but there are lots of woods where the trowl method works well.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Just wondering what most people's problem is with poo. Is it what one might consider a real concern over water contamination, or, stepping in it, visual over the poo, visual over the paper?

I live surrounded by farms and my wife has a horse. So poo is everywhere and everything gets poo on it. 

My family's poo and the neighbours' goes into a pit in the adjoining field, this is never emptied but leaks through the soil out across the field and into the river. The time this takes being enough to break it down and kill everything. Meanwhile sheep and cattle munch away on top.

Assuming that the concern over water pollution is not real in most locations, assuming that the poo is not where one might tread, and people use grass and plants to wipe (as I taught my kids) , what is the issue in MOST locations? In places where there are lots of people pooing there might be a an issue or in drier climates. But in most UK settings? 

I almost get the feeling people have a problem with poo. In and of itself. This seems to fade a little if they have spent time covered in kid's poo or whiping the bottoms of the elderly.

Having used the USA approach of carrying it out and putting it and the quite thick plastic used in a Wag bag in the trash, I was left wondering, is it good to be landfilling this stuff (longterm plastic pollution and short term methane ie green house gas generation) rather than simply shitting in the woods or elsewhere. Given that in many places this might be only a question of visual aesthetic. 

Clearly, if there is a high density of people to poo or walk in it things are different, or if people are drinking directly from water sources, but I wonder if either is true in 99 percent of the UK landscape? 

In reply to David Coley:

My dog is in a very happy place at the moment, as everything is coming down to low pasture, all the meadows and fields are ankle deep in pooh. I’m trying my best to stop him spending his walks grazing the cow and sheep pooh. And rolling in fox pooh.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Wow didn't expect my post to get this many dislikes! I guess a lot of people on here do struggle to not shit at the foot of Stanage then?

In reply to Pete_Frost:

Ta for responding. As you say, out of 60 million people, we only really occasionally come across a shit. Perhaps less than 0.0001% feel the need to shit irresponsibly once a year. 

If you know you are one of these 0.0001% of people who regularly can't hold it, you should probably bring something out with you.

Don't get me wrong, I'd take seeing a poo bag dispenser all day over your dog rolling in it. That's really horrible. But whilst that may make sense in car parks for quite remote crags but at Stanage, Wilton and places like that? Where do you stop?

Is it a case of the responsible ones take one and keep it for when they need it and the people who shit everywhere just keep shitting everywhere? Also when 25% of people who visit stanage start walking about trying to shit in a bag because that's what the signs have told them to do. That's not necessarily going to make things better. 

I like the idea of the poo bag being added to kit lists on UKC and the like and used in emergencies. Unless you are definitely going to need a shit i.e. on multiday trips you're not going to carry a trowel everywhere with you. 

In reply to FreshSlate:

I'm finding this interesting on several levels.

Assuming we are not talking about shitting under a route or on a path, I'm wondering if contact is likely. A lot of people could poo, say 50m down the slope from Stanage Edge and the it would be unlikely anyone would step in it, unless they were off for a poo, and then one might suggest buyer be aware.

Given that even though many dog owners do their best, I often see dog poo, and I guess I see it much, much more often than human, and given that most climbers don't take a dog into the hills, the level of un-responsible  dog pooing incidents per dog might well be several orders of magnitude greater than that of humans, and that dogs caught short when the owners are looking the other way are happy to poo on a path, I can see some people wondering which is the greater issue - human or dog poo?

Now given that logic, I'm left wondering whether a message of "please don't shit in the woods because my dog might roll in it, might grate with some.

I don't think I have ever had to remove human poo from my kids shoes or clothes; dog poo regularly. My lane is full of it. 

In reply to FreshSlate:

you’ve never had to shit while climbing? I shat while climbing today, and on Thursday. I think I’ve shat at every crag I’ve ever been to across Europe and the US. No way I’m ever putting it in a plastic bag and keeping it on my person. My current method is walk far away and deep into a bush, pick up a big rock, lay a cable, replace big rock. Can’t see why that would affect anyone. I can imagine on moorland crags though this might be tricky, but i tend to mostly climb quarries or on mountains. 
 
The trowel idea sounds great and I’ll definitely keep my eye open for a decent sized one next time I visit a garden centre. 

In reply to Donotello:

Wow, that's awful. I can see why someone might prefer to use a trowel if they're caught out so often. Do you often wake up at night needing a shit? Have you been diagnosed with anything?

In reply to FreshSlate:

I too only very rarely get through a day on the hills or climbing without taking a dump. Especially before an intimidating route. A pre-harness dump in winter is de riguer. I doubt I am unusual.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Is there any merit in use of Chloride of lime, in say, sachets, to render little Richards inert? I know it is a fairly caustic chemical which would alter soil pH but is there anything in this? Maybe a design student could come up with a device into which you can lay your eggs then render it inoffensive with lime, carry it out, dispose of to waste water treatment, clean and reuse?  No plastic, no landfill.  I'd be interested to hear why this can't be done.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hmm I wish we could poll this. 

Those who can generally make it through a day can dislike and those who cannot, can like this post. 

In reply to Donotello:

If I was still climbing I'd encourage you to confine your trips to Horseshoe ( but go as often as you like).

In reply to Rob Parsons:

This has existed for a fair while, I read about it in the 90's or something. 

https://www.heinnie.com/ultimate-survival-u-dig-it-folding-hand-shovel

In reply to Timmd:

Folding trowels have been around forever, but the iPood innovation was a hollow handle that held sufficient sheets of shit paper - which was the specific feature mentioned upthread.