UKC

The UK Government's relaxation of its lockdown guidelines, published on Monday, have been met with much-anticipated excitement from climbers and walkers in our forums and on social media. As keen climbers and walkers ourselves, we were equally intrigued to know when a return to the hills, crags and mountains might be possible. Now that many in England are seeing a green light for pursuing our outdoor passions after seven weeks of confinement, UKC would like to appeal for continued, thoughtful consideration by the climbing community, which has been overwhelmingly adhered to over the past two months.

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In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Agree with most of what you've said, some minor bits not so much but what I did like is that you've clearly published this as an opinion piece. It would have been nice to see some of the other stuff coming from various other sources labelled as such. The articles on here have been really good from Dan Bailey as well.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Well balanced.

After all the vitriol on the forums over this issue, I'm genuinely impressed that you've managed to write that many words without attracting a single dislike as I post!

Nice to see that you've incorporated some of the best advice that's been posted in the forums recently as well.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

All very sensible. Small point but where did the 70 cases a day come from? It’s more like about 4,000 a day in the UK (of which most will be in England).

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, Oliver Dowden, tweeted: “In tentative steps & in the least risky outdoor environments, we can imminently allow some sports activity like golf, basketball, tennis, fishing - solo/in households.”

Also, the new guidelines for exercise state: "Maintain good hand hygiene (this includes not touching shared surfaces [...])"

So it really doesn't sound like climbing was what they had in mind!

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Suits me 🙂

In reply to YourNameHere:

Have to agree. It would be much easier to achieve social distancing playing golf or tennis than going climbing, so if these pretty safe (in a virus infection sense) sports aren't even being advocated with non-household members then climbing definitely seems problematic.  

In reply to YourNameHere:

I'm a bit comfused.

Tho what you say is clear, and I agree with it. I could have sworn that Sunday nights announcement allowed for exercise with one other person outside your household provided you keep 2 meters apart.

Also did not spot the "(this includes not touching shared surfaces [...])" bit in the news articles I've read. 

Has the government now published updated regulations which provide the legal framework for restrictions?

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Wales is currently out-of-bounds, AFAIK that is also true of Scotland.  Please update the article to make it clear that people in England should not yet be travelling to Wales to climb.  Thanks!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Golf and tennis are allowed with one other non-household person.

In reply to simoncov:

Hi Simon,

There’s a section titled ‘Be aware of the borders’ which covers this.

Thanks

In reply to YourNameHere:

Dowden tweeted that 3 days ago before  before the Johnson's announcement + the government Plan guidance Open Spaces section says:  'people can spend time outdoors..subject to good hand hygiene' 

However the same guidance  then states: 'people may drive to outdoor open spaces irrespective of distance,  so long as they respect social distancing....because this does not involve contact with people outside your household.'

This would seem to say you can't travel somewhere and meet someone else, even if social distancing?

More guidance later may clear this up...maybe. 

In reply to Misha:

I took it from the second chart, but these new cases 'are attributed to the day the specimen was taken' in England. 4,304 (UK) must be including tests not taken on that day. Maybe 71 is the number confirmed immediately in hospitals?

Whatever it is, 4,304 is a considerably bigger number. Thanks for pointing this out!

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/#category=nations&map=rate&area=e92...

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I concur, really well balanced and brings all the knowledgeable opinions and posts together in one place. This is kind of the article/opinion piece that I've been begging to read for a bit of clarity. Nice one guys

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Reiterated by the BBC  -'Households can travel to other destinations in England'. As it stands the exercising with another person doesn't look like it means going somewhere and meeting up 

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

This is good and well balanced article, excellent.

I like that you've noted that we all have a level of personal responsibility.  Just because it would be legal for me to drive half way across the country to go climb a hard project at a popular crag it wouldn't be morally right.

I always say this, but just because something is legal it doesn't make it morally right (don't make me give examples!), we all have to take a level of personal responsibility, now more than ever.

  

In reply to Bulls Crack:

From the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52530518

Can I meet friends and relatives?

Two people from different households in England can meet in outdoor settings, such as parks, as long as they stay more than 2m (6ft) apart.

Activities such as golf, angling and tennis are permitted, but only alone, with members of your household or with one other person from another household. If you do exercise with someone you don't live with, remember social distancing rules still apply.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Updated government greenspaces guidance https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-guidance-on-access-to-green-...

Sort of removes earlier ambiguity re travelling so looks like  allowable to drive and meet 1 other person from outside your household 

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Difficult to see how we can maintain social distancing on a climb and avoid touching your partner's gear and the holds used.

In reply to richardhaszko:

Are you sure you're not seeing problems where they almost certainly don't exist? If you go to the supermarket how do you know someone hasn't picked up that packet of bacon and put it back just before you?

Go out, wash your hand, don't touch your mouth and have fun.

In reply to Chuckinpomgolia:

You're correct, and this is a perfect example of why there's so much confusion. Regarding the updated guidelines, this was widely quoted in the press, but I can't find a source.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

This all comes down to when and how things are reported. There is the same issue with reporting deaths.

The c. 4k number of daily positive tests I referred to is for the UK. 3,242 today (13 May). That's all four Nations and includes tests carried out in both NHS / PHE labs and in 'commercial' labs (this is where NHS and PHE ran out of lab capacity so recruited healthcare companies and universities and anyone else with a suitable lab to help out). There is then a separate data set for England but, confusingly, this only includes tests carried out in NHS / PHE labs. On this basis, there were 1,146 English positive tests reported today (13 May) - the reason this is much lower than the 3,242 is it doesn't include 'commercial' lab results in England and any results in the other Nations. These numbers are the numbers of positive tests processed the previous day.

It takes a while to process a swab (post it to a testing centre, do the test, send the results to wherever they get collated) and this can take different amounts of time for different swabs. Not least because some are now self administered at home and people could take a while to post them back. So the 1,146 number above includes tests which were taken across several different days. On the other hand, other tests which were taken on the same days will have already been processed an included in earlier reported numbers, while some others won't have been processed yet.

The 71 tests you referred to was the number of tests processed on 11 May (Monday) where the swabs had been taken the previous day, 10 May (Sunday). With the postal delays on a Sunday, it's not surprising that it was a small number. Today (13 May) the tests processed on 12 May were reported and of those a further 444 related to swabs taken on 10 May. You can see this on the 'Daily number of lab-confirmed cases in England by specimen date' chart - the purple bits are the tests reported today (processed on the previous date). Easier to see the numbers if you click on 'table' view'. Except you probably won't see this till tomorrow, so by then the 71 will have become 555 (71 + 444) and you'll have a new number for tests processed today (13 May) relating to swabs taken on 10 May.

So that's a long winded explanation of where you go the 71 from and why it's not the right number. It's easiest to look at the headline number of new positive tests processed for the whole of the UK. Tests processed lag behind swabs done, which in turn lag behind date of infection (symptoms take an average of 5 days and up to 14 days to show and most people won't get tested for another few days as it takes a while for the symptoms to worsen). Or you can look at the bar chart , ignoring the last 4-5 days as the data will be incomplete. None of the numbers in the bar chart include 'commercial' testing but you can see the overall trend.

The picture is further complicated by the fact that fewer swabs are done at weekends and we've just had a bank holiday weekend. You can see that from the bar chart - there's a dip every weekend but on the whole the number of positive swabs taken on weekdays is reducing week on week. Given that testing has increased very significantly in the last couple of weeks, that's a good sign (we are testing more people but there are fewer positive test results).

Obviously the real number of new cases on any given day is going to be far higher in any case as fewer than 100k people are tested each day (this includes many but not all of the people who are at high risk of having Covid, for example there's still little testing in care homes).

Hope this helps (and makes sense!).

In reply to Oceanrower: the risk of buying bacon isn’t necessarily any lower but food shopping is life critical and necessary. Climbing isn’t, and for now it makes sense to minimise risk exposure for non essential activities.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

There is a small (but important for some people) update from the BMC. Hill walking is now ok in Wales as long as you walk from home or travel very locally (seems a bit vague on that point, my reading of it is that you can travel a few miles if you really need to). But this doesn't apply to climbing.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/can-i-go-climbing-and-hill-walking-in-wales

In reply to Misha:

Thanks Misha. Makes sense! 

I also saw Oliver Dowden's tweet and wondered what 'risky' activities would turn out to be. Not much more was said on that front. I wasn't sure if they meant risky in terms of transmission rather than 'dangerous' sports. 

Social distancing is intended to minimise transmission via respiratory droplets rather than through surface contact as far as I'm aware. That's why we emphasised keeping your distance and keeping good hand hygiene to deal with any contact transmission. The focus should be on keeping yourself clean after exposure to surfaces and equipment etc. rather than vigiurously washing and disinfecting gear (which might do more harm than good to the gear!). This is the advice that most walls seem to be following having done lots of research for an upcoming indoor walls article.

The FFME and other bodies abroad have advised keeping the same end of the rope for each person throughout the day, avoiding putting gear in your mouth etc. The FFME have also suggested using one boulder mat per person. Multi-pitch climbing is currently not permitted in France, I assume due to perceived difficulties in social distancing at belays.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Good article. I will still personally be staying indoors as much as possible for now. I'll climb in a few months/a year when the situation improves. The climb will still be there and we shouldn't risk anything. Way too many people have died (nationally and internationally) already.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Would make sense if MP not permitted. The article on the Chamoniarde a few days back with recommendations for different types of climbing seemed to suggest it was ok with some precautions. I thought that was interesting.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I'm surprised the BMC advice wasn't prefaced by the phrase 'If you really must"

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

The government got it right originally until the screwed up the message, but for climbers, modified- Stay at home- Don't go to the crag - Save Lives. Things are a lot more serious than you think they are, really this isn't going to fully over until next year unfortunately.

In reply to Misha:

The FFME drew up an outline for each activity with safety guidelines and posted them online while the sports minister considered them. The minister approved the following and banned multipitch: 

Wash your hands between each attempt or route, with water and degradable organic soap when possible, otherwise with hydro-alcoholic gel.
The chalk used is liquid chalk containing alcohol.
Bouldering is only possible on low-rise boulders with good landings and requiring no spotting.
The use of crash pads is strictly individual.
Climbing on single pitch routes is only possible with strictly individual equipment and respecting the distance measures (1.50 metres between each climber).
Each climber must only use their own personal equipment (harnesses, ropes, quickdraws, belay system).
Climbing on routes of several pitches (multipitch) is not allowed.

https://planetgrimpe.com/2020/05/11/retour-en-falaise-apres-le-confinement-...

(and there's a 100km travel radius limit)

In reply to GeorgeFNewport:

Climbing or not climbing as a decision on it's own is going to make the sum total of F@*K all difference when not climbing was part of a package of other measures it makes sense but if you allow walking where ever you like fishing golf and basically anything else the comparatively small climbing world is going to have minimal impact, and that's before you start to consider all those pictures of packed tube trains and buses. be much better to make a big fuss about not going into shops etc if they're not your local shops you always go to anyhow.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

As a climber who lives in rural Cumbria on the edge of the lakes with multiple climbing options near by (and has been brought up around here not a colly dog owning , T5 driving wannabe Cumbrian hahaha ) , even i will probably not be doing much if any climbing or proper mountain biking in the fells etc etc, as not to risk injury and putting mountain rescue etc at un-due risk at this time.

also if you are travelling you are really not welcome at the moment around the Cambrian fells. and remember you coming and climbing our local crags might be fun for you but we where we have variouse access issues especially in some of the less frequented crags in the eden valley and periphery of the lakes ... so really dont want loads of tourists coming and making access problems worse and stopping us from being able to climb them when this is over... basically dont travel to far and keep it safe.  its only climbing hahaha 

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

What about if you're soloing?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Then it's only one pitch...

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Thanks for clarifying. Makes sense really.

In reply to joem:

You've touched on concerns I have about the relaxation of the shutdown beyond the small bubble of climbing, when I've been out the relatively small number of people out and about don't seem to have fully grasped the concept of social distancing, so that being such I don't think the government was right to relax something which wasn't fully working until people fully got the message. I was out today at a shop and surely after 2 weeks people should know roughly what 2 metres looks like, I mean there's been tape down everywhere so you would have thought that it might have sunk in, but I found that's not the case.

So rant over on that aspect back to what I love climbing, in reality the BMC could not have prefaced the guidence they gave in the way I suggested (if you must go climbing...) because that would have alienated a whole lot of people who may then have ignored their guidence as result. Because what the government said was so vague the BMC had to give some kind of lead to climbers as even though as people point out they aren't strictly speaking the governing body of what we do they are seen as such and are therefore expected to take the lead.

The BMC guidence seems to be as sensible under the circumstances and should be followed, the only omission I can see from them is that they should have advised to climb locally and not travel to far from where you live to climb, but again the government guidence is so vague and didn't specify anything in that regard they probably decided to avoid putting that cavet in the guidence to avoid people potential ignoring the advice they have given.

I would say is that accidents by their nature are not expected and therefore take no prisoners, so maybe folk should be thinking how  NHS, MRT resources could end up being used unnecessarily and avoid that possiblity.

Finally, sorry about my post turning into war and peace, I really don't think the the Covid 19 situation is anywhere near finished so the title of this thread might be underplaying things. Again perhaps think about that aspect. 

I say what I'm saying with a heavy heart none of us wanted this but it's where we are.

Keep safe everyone (if you must...)

In reply to GeorgeFNewport:

People seem to be using words like "vague" and "unclear" to mean "I disagree with it".   The government advice on how far you can travel is not vague, it is clear: you can travel as far as you like, but overnight trips are not allowed. 

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

'we have little faith in the competence of the UK Government to always make the best decisions'

Harsh and unfair, disturbing an otherwise delicate balance.

In reply to nathanheywood:

Accurate, fair and reflective of the general british phsyci regardless of who's in power, though imho the current crop are the worst so far.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Have you tried not to touch your mouth!!!!

In reply to Oceanrower:

I agree. Have there been any recorded, and properly substantiated,cases of transmission of viruses outside, via climbing? 

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Northern IReland restrictions have now relaxed tot he point that limited climbing is possible.

https://mountaineering.ie/aboutus/news/2020/?id=273