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NEWS: Climbing Qualifications - A UKC Series

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 UKC News 19 May 2009
[NICAS poster 440, 5 kb]Do you know your MIA from your SPA? UKClimbing.com has a new series on mountain instruction awards.

In this new series of articles we will explain each mountain qualification available in the UK. We'll also explain how they all fit together, and how you can get qualified.

Each set of articles will be accompanied by a live Question and Answer session in the UKC Forum, so if you have any questions, you can ask an expert.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=47486

 Dark Peak Paul 19 May 2009
In reply to UKC News: While it is nice to see a series of articles addressing the increasingly complex field of mountaineering qualifications, I would contest Rachael’s statement that the IML is the highest award within the MLTUK framework. Although geographically more limiting, surely the MIC is the highest for technical content. You have to do your Winter ML and MIA just to register for training!
 Ron Walker 19 May 2009
In reply to Dark Peak Paul:

Yes I thought that was a very strange and misleading statement too. No mention of the MIC either!

IML's can "teach anything bar alpinism".....!

See "The highest award we offer is the International Mountain Leader Award, which allows you to lead groups anywhere except on glaciers and teach anything bar alpinism."
 SebCa 19 May 2009
In reply to Ron Walker: I may well be prooved wrong in this statement but MLTUK is the governing body of WGL/SPA/ML/WML and IML.

AMI is the governing body of MIA/MIC

That could possibly what she meant?

Or maybe im totally wrong!
 summo 19 May 2009
In reply to Jimbo MSider:
> (In reply to Ron Walker) "I may well be prooved wrong in this statement but MLTUK is the governing body of WGL/SPA/ML/WML and IML.
>
> AMI is the governing body of MIA/MIC"

Afraid so, MIA MIC both registered and run within the MLTUK framework. Shows how complex it is, do we really need a different ML body for each country and not just a UK one?


 Ron Walker 19 May 2009
In reply to Jimbo MSider:

AMI is not the governing body but the representative body of MIA and MIC's! The MLTUK is the governing body ...
So if the MLTUK reps and I as a member holding the MIA/MIC and IML qualifications find it all a bit confusing what chance has the general public!!!!!

See below taken from the AMI website:

"The Association of Mountaineering Instructors is the representative body for professionally qualified Mountaineering Instructors in the UK & Ireland.
AMI was formed in 1990 to represent the interests of the highly experienced mountaineers who have undergone rigorous training and assessment to qualify under the Mountain Leader Training UK (MLTUK) Mountaineering Instructor Scheme.
All full members of the Association are holders of the Mountaineering Instructor Certificate (MIC) or Mountaineering Instructor Award (MIA)"
See about AMI at http://www.ami.org.uk/about.html
 whispering nic 19 May 2009
In reply to Richard White:

In fairness she is quoting somebody from MLTUK, so she should be getting reliable info from them.

It's not that big a deal really, and not wildly innacurate. You can, technically, for example, use the 'equivalence' of your IML with Accompangateur en Moyen Montange plus extra training to take/teach people canyoning. But that's off topic.

 AlH 19 May 2009
In reply to Richard White: Following on from Nic's post.... And Sarah never metioned AMI at all that was another posters error.
Al
 Michael Ryan 19 May 2009
In reply to Richard White:
> (In reply to UKC News)

> As has already been mentioned, AMI is the representative body, not the governing body.

Where is the AMI mentioned in the article?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=47486

Be specific.
 Michael Ryan 19 May 2009
In reply to David Hooper:

Uh Rachael is technically correct, but there is some ambiguity there. We will clear that up.

It will come clearer over the next few weeks as we have articles/video on each award...Summer ML, Winter ML, IML, MIA, MIC with Q+A sessions on the forums with representatives of the awards.

Also Sarah has also done a very clear graphic explaining the matrix of awards/bodies and the paths to follow!

Paul Lewis is also doing an article on the AMI and its role.

The bottom line is that this shall be a valuable resource for those who wish to following the very rewarding life as an instructor or guide.

Importantly, as Paul has just pointed out to me on the phone, it will also explain to climbers who want to learn more by hiring an instructor or a guide, what all these qualifications mean.

Mick
 Jack Geldard 20 May 2009
In reply to UKC News: Hi everyone,

This news item has been slightly updated - (please 'Force Refresh' your browser to see the change) as some of Rachael's comments were taken slightly out of context, thus making one of the sentences incorrect.

Thanks for pointing that out everyone. Apologies to Rachael.

Best,

Jack
 timjones 20 May 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to David Hooper)
>
> Uh Rachael is technically correct, but there is some ambiguity there. We will clear that up.
>
> It will come clearer over the next few weeks as we have articles/video on each award...Summer ML, Winter ML, IML, MIA, MIC with Q+A sessions on the forums with representatives of the awards.
>
> Also Sarah has also done a very clear graphic explaining the matrix of awards/bodies and the paths to follow!


Surely the logical answer is to use the MLTUK matrix or even better provide a link to it.

This attempt to provide a seperate resource already seems to be causing confusion. The MLTUK website provides definitive answers and is updated as necessary, how do you plan to keep your info up to date and can you really add to the function it already fulfills?
 David Hooper 20 May 2009
In reply to timjones:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
>
> Surely the logical answer is to use the MLTUK matrix or even better provide a link to it.


Took the words right out of my mouth Tim
 David Hooper 20 May 2009
In reply to David Hooper:

PS The MLTUK have also produced a newish DVD detailing all the awards - think it was given away free on the cover of some of the comics not so long ago.
 Sarah Stirling 20 May 2009
In reply to UKC News: The news item introduces the new series, and was not intended to be an in-depth piece of investigative journalism: hence not all awards are mentioned. Rachael did a commendable job of condensing and explaining what Paul aptly describes as 'the increasingly complex field of mountaineering qualifications'. Apologies for the inaccuracy that crept in, and to Rachael for quoting her out of context.

Since writing this first news item (which unfortunately slipped through the net of those fact checked by Steve Long), I have researched and investigated the mountain award system, and interviewed people who have completed the awards. As many people have commented, the system can be confusing. The syllabuses are also long and complex.

The purpose of this series is to provide an overview of, and an insight into, each mountain award. There will be a simplified syllabus, an interview from someone who has completed each award and live Q and A sessions with experts. I think many potential mountain instructors will find this useful.
 Michael Ryan 20 May 2009
In reply to David Hooper:
> (In reply to David Hooper)
>
> PS The MLTUK have also produced a newish DVD detailing all the awards - think it was given away free on the cover of some of the comics not so long ago.

That is correct David. But to reach the target audience that alone is not enough. There is also much on the BMC website and on the MLTUK.

The reach of UKClimbing.com eclipses all of the above.

We thought it our responsibility to run this series to expose even more people to the guides and instructors schemes, and to the explanation of what these awards mean.

All the best,

Mick
UKClimbing.com


 David Hooper 20 May 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I must admit, you are right Mick - the number of folk who post on here enquiring about the award, who dont even seem to realsie that there is an MLTUK and associated website would prove that [point.
 Michael Ryan 20 May 2009
In reply to David Hooper:

Even further David, the people who post are miniscule in number compared to those who don't post and just read.

It all helps I think.
 David Hooper 20 May 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I do hope its going to be an objective and informative series and not just "advertorial" for selected "interviewees".....wouldnt have minded being interviewed myself
 Dee 20 May 2009
In reply to David Hooper: David, if you remember, UKC invited holders of these awards to write in....

As for advertorial, I don't think I've got a decent photo of myself that I could reasonably post on here (any photos of me would probably lead to any offers of work being swiftly withdrawn!) - I've sent something (article and pic), so I'm cringing at the prospect of being subjected to the usual UKC critique....
 David Hooper 20 May 2009
In reply to Dee:
> (In reply to David Hooper) David, if you remember, UKC invited holders of these awards to write in....

Nope..dont remember that or I would have been onto it.

Im an opinionated bugger in interviews and my profile piccy has the very lovely Chewwie B on it, so no=one would be looking at my ugly mug anyway

Good luck with your interview.....Im really looking forward to them now.
 Dee 20 May 2009
In reply to David Hooper: I'll try and avoid the Awesome Walls in Liverpool for a while after it....cos I did recognise you there from your pic (but no lovely Chewwie B?)
 Michael Ryan 20 May 2009
In reply to David Hooper:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> I do hope its going to be an objective and informative series


Yes it is.

 David Hooper 20 May 2009
In reply to Dee:
No.dont avoid it,come and say hello

Mind you - Im hardly there in the summer anyway.
 Michael Ryan 20 May 2009


This is a UKC Editorial thread. Please take chat elsewhere.
 David Hooper 20 May 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Sor-ry Mick (looks ashamed and holds hand out to be slapped)...
 Dee 20 May 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Hopefully, another thing which the articles will reinforce is the support and enthusiasm that holders of these awards offer - this is obvious in a comparison between, say the MLTA Forum and here or even the BAIML forum and here; UKC is, on occasion, adversarial. David touches on an important point when he mentions about having a chat - he has already helped me informally by highlighting a useful demonstration point about movement technique, without knowing who I was, when I was running an indoor session - in his understated way, he is describing perfectly the informal ways in which more experienced instructors help others to improve. This is one of the purposes of MLTA and the other professional associations in not only raising awareness but also the standards of holders' knowledge and skills.
 Michael Ryan 20 May 2009
In reply to Dee:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Hopefully, another thing which the articles will reinforce is the support and enthusiasm that holders of these awards offer -

I should hope so. Isn't that part of the job?

 Dee 20 May 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Thank you for allowing me to clarify my point. My apologies if I gave the impression that I was referring to clients - I wasn't referring to clients but prospective holders and less-experienced or skilful holders of awards. In other professions I've worked in, there are 'professionals' who lack the support and enthusiasm to support other colleagues - they view it as not necessarily part of their job.
 peakpaul 20 May 2009
In reply to Dark Peak Paul:

Hi all,
Just wanted to point out that I post on UKC as peakpaul and am not the same person as Dark Peak Paul! Theres been a bit of confusion and a few emails hitting my inbox today about this discussion and I wanted to clear up the identity mix up as people I know well are involved in this debate!

I did speak to Mick last night to discuss the article I am writing about AMI and we did talk about the confusion being caused about the IML statement....but that's all we discussed.

Cheers,
Paul Lewis
 David Hooper 20 May 2009
In reply to peakpaul:

Can I change my username to White Peak Paul?
 David Hooper 20 May 2009
In reply to David Hooper:

or even The Peaks Paul (especially for Al Evans)
 Michael Ryan 20 May 2009
In reply to peakpaul:

Woops sorry Paul.
 peakpaul 20 May 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

No problem Mick. Its not a big issue but I just wanted to clear up a bit of confusion that has happened today due to the similarity in usernames.

It was good to chat with you.

Cheers,
Paul
 Andy Cloquet 20 May 2009
In reply to UKC News: The recent postings on this topic reveal, not surprisingly, that although the various awards, Certificate and Guides' Carnet seem quite logical to those who are involved in following the schemes of training and assessment, there is far greater confusion amongst the very folk who may want to use the services of an 'award holder (Sp or MI), mountain leader (S, W, or I), mountain instructor and Guide. Oh, and by the way, just so that we don't get too complacent whilst trying to unravel all these acronyms, may I point out that there is an alternative or complementary group of MIC's separate from AMI, disregarding of course those MI's who choose not to be members of either organisation.

So, perhaps the general theme of these postings and those to come as this series progresses, should be forwarded to MLTUK, as they are in the throes of reviewing the Mountain Instructor Award. and there is an alternative or complementary group of MIC's separate from AMI. ....and after all those initials, I'm off for a p in the wc!
aye, Andy

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