UKC

In this video we see UKC regular Franco Cookson attempt O'Gradey's Incurable Itch (E6 7a) without side runners.

Unfortunately Franco doesn't make a successful ascent and falls from near the top of the route...

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=61201

In reply to UKC News:

Terrific video. As Jack G says, please be careful, Franco!

In reply to UKC News:

Ooof, Franco. That was hard to watch knowing what was coming. Glad you're OK...

In reply to UKC News:

With hindsight(!) it might have been worth giving the pegs a proper 'checking' with a hammer.


Chris


PS It is too late to say "take care" but I am saying it anyway!

In reply to UKC News:


Wishes for a speedy recovery.

Si

In reply to UKC News:

He looked as though he got up and was walking around, then the picture shows him on a stretcher.
It looked like it hurt though.

Yikes.

Hope the boy's OK. (Did he get out of that completely unscathed? I hope so, of course, but it's hard to believe.)

In reply to UKC News:

bloody hell Franco! that was terrifying to watch!
Glad to hear you're okay - what was the MR bit about?

In reply to simes303:

Of course he's on a bloody stretcher, he fell 20 metres and is lucky to be alive. It's great that he does not have spinal injuries, but the odds are that he would have had, even if he thought he was able to walk around. They made the right call not to walk off even if he had felt able.

Vids like this make me feel like pure rock is petty.

We as climbers sometimes think were better than drunk people who die falling off roofs of supermarkets while drunk at 2am, or a teenager dying in a tombstoning accident.

Just because we have a history and a culture and individual and ambitious goals does not to me get around the idea that stuff like this seems like a petty and stupid and immature dare.

I still have a lot of respect for him though, and am glad he is ok.

In reply to UKC News:

Perhaps it should be renamed to "Crikey O'Reilly!"

Hope the injuries aren't too serious or sore.

ALC

In reply to Lupine Lacuna:

Don't see how getting killed mountaineering as opposed to on "pure rock" is any more worthwhile?

So you think he was "Petty and stupid and immature"?

I think you could be in the wrong game.

_______________________________________

Top marks for effort, guts and survival Franco!

In reply to UKC News:

Frodo has your mother seen this video? Glad your alright though mate. Watching you solo stuff always makes me feel sick.

In reply to Southern Man:
>

I think he's right. I tried a very on/off route above what I knew was a very dangerous fall. It's just irresponsible. What did I have to gain? An ascent of an inspiring blank line at a dingy quarry- hardly makes up for risking upsetting my parents and my very lovely girlfriend, not to mention risking Jack's safety belaying.

Time to have a think me thinks.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Kepwick Wall?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

The trick with climbing is to stay alive, isn't it? The amazing fact is that almost none of the most famous names in mountaineering and rock climbing have died while climbing. Or let's say a very surprisingly small proportion. Sobering thought.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Rock climbing I agree but mountaineering!! The list is huge.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Only needs saying once (from the concerned granddad sat in the corner) but life and climbing are both learning games, and you strike me as a bit of slow learner! Said will all best intentions, I hope you know what I mean.


Chris

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I would say the very opposite - almost all the well know climbers I know who have died have done so climbing.


Chris

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Jesus... My heart is racing. Take care kiddo.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Nicely said Franco. A pretty horrible video.
What injuries did you receive and how do you think this will change your climbing? I.e. will you only attempting really hard routes if they have really good gear?
Glad you're ok.
James

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Really? Think about the attrition from British alpinism alone during the 70s and 80s - Patey, Clough, Burke, Estcourt, Boardman, Tasker, Baxter-Jones, MacIntyre, Rouse, Tullis and doubtless others I've forgotten. The cream of a generation decimated.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

It was just a thought. i did say the most famous names, and I stick by that. A huge number of the less famous are indeed dead. Anyhow... not very important.

This has brought it all back to me.

I had (in comparison nothing like as bad as Francos' fall) a fall about 20 years ago and hit the deck. Just an hvs route, probably about 30 feet up, the rope paid out and didn't stop, I hit the deck. My mate belaying could not work out how the rope had payed out. Nothing really serious done physically but I've never lead a climb since. Bizzarely via ferrata doesn't bother me.
I keep meaning to get back in to it but don't. I probably just need the right person to kick start me.

It doesn't seem to bother some people though. hopefully Franco you will be one of them. Speedy recovery.

Peter.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Maybe it's the ones who get lucky and survive who become famous? It seems like almost every good climber has had a bad fall or some lucky escape at some point.

In reply to UKC News:
That looks like a horrible fall alright, glad he's ok, but why not place the side runners? It doesn't change the climbing, and it may have prevented the ground fall.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I think that if you accept a separation of rock-climbing from mountaineering and ice-climbing Gordon has a point. Surprisingly few top rock-climbing practitioners die practicing pure rock-climbing. Out of your list if i remember correctly the only rock-climbing casualty was Patey, and that was an abseiling accident.

It might be more useful from Franco's point of view if anyone can thing of any useful role-models: people who pushed the boat out too far in their youth, survived and went on to better things.

In reply to UKC News:

That upper peg looked like it was clipped very strangely to me?

In reply to UKC News: I had a fall of about the same length as Francos back in the sixties and I was about the same age. I fractured my skull, despite wearing a helmet, bust a few ribs and damaged my back. I couldn't raise my arms for two weeks and my mother had to feed me. It took several years to get my confidence back fully. Needless to say these days I work on the principle that the leader does not fall, at least not on trad. There are of course a few situations where I consider the risk minimal and will push it a bit then. If the passion is there it is possible to get back into it and even improve. I did.

Al

In reply to Bob Kemp:
> I think that if you accept a separation of rock-climbing from mountaineering and ice-climbing Gordon has a point. Surprisingly few top rock-climbing practitioners die practicing pure rock-climbing. Out of your list if i remember correctly the only rock-climbing casualty was Patey, and that was an abseiling accident.


Tony Wilmot, Jimmy Jewel, Paul Williams, Derek Hersey, John Bachar. Soloing I'll grant you, but what's the difference when you know the gear is marginal, or you choose not to use some as it's considered as a side runner, or when you get to a height above your gear where you ARE soloing. Sometimes 'leading' is just trailing a rope.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I imagine survivorship bias is quite prevalent really. The alive great climbers are taken from a set of climbers who didn't get killed when they were less famous.

In reply to Hero of Alex: i would guess for ego (E9) and because he wants to rename it, and leave his mark (ego).

glad you're not dead franco

In reply to franksnb: idiot

In reply to jon:


Climbers are control freaks, experts in controlling risks as best they can, and of getting themselves into the situation of attempting what they believe they can do, and what they believe they won't die doing. The development of headpointing is a particular testament to that intention. Ultimately, not all risks can be accounted for and controlled, but that is true in so much of human activity. I don't think soloing is the same as this kind of headpointing at all. Paul Williams died soloing a route he'd already done loads of times (I believe including that day), Jimmy died soloing something well below his limitations but wearing trainers, these are hardly the attitudes, or certainly aren't the usual ones, of the climber attempting a headpoint. Its all about knowledge of the physical ability and the experience and training to be able to psychologically control the mind sufficiently. I wonder what someone like Dave Macleod would make in analysis of this.

In reply to UKC News:

Glad you're okay Franco! I hope you get back into the climbing again soon, you've clearly got some natural ability. Was well impressed with the active flexibility to get your left foot up there. All the best.

In reply to Jimbo W:

PW fell because a hold broke.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Uking ell Franco, glad your ok, don,t know how long the fall lasted, but was just wondering if you had time to think and realise what was about to happen and if so what you were thinking as you were falling, just curious.

In reply to Shani:

A feind of mine posed the question, "How many climbers have you heard of dying by falling from a hard crux?" I can't think of any, all were from accidents on easy routes, descents or factors outwith their control.

However , they're still dead.

Good luck, Franco, glad you're OK!

In reply to franksnb:

I wanted to do it for that is the challange the rock sets us.

Whilst this is a man made quarry, it fractured across natural lines of weakness formed by imperfections and bedding. This wall is amazing in it's upper section and the moves are superb. It's a testament to Andy for finding a way through it with side runners and my attempt was not trying to take anything away from that.

Why did I want to climb the pure challenge? For inexplicable reasons of inspiration. If you want to put it down to ego then fair enough, but I wouldn't risk my neck in trying to impress others. There is certainly an element of trying to impress myself though.

Hope that makes sense.

In reply to Jimbo W:

Jimmy soloed because he couldn't be the best, so he settled for being notorious. Paul started soloing basically because Jimmy did. Both were very close friends of mine. Paul died because a hold broke and Jimmy was just being complacent soloing up PMP. But that's beside the point. I was simply pointing out to Gordon that his assertion was wrong.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Humans are edge-dwellers. If you see an ant on a leaf it explores the boundaries and humans are the same. Most sports I can think of seem to diversify into to a collection of 'sub sports' as they develop. It is in human nature to explore boundaries.

In reply to jon:

Not true. Paul soloed from the earlies times of his climbing career.

In reply to Shani:


Yes I knew that. My first outing on the grit was seconding green gut as a young teanager, and seeing flowers left there, and asking a climber about it, gave me the fear big time. It wasn't the mechanism that brought about the death, it was the attitude I was drawing attention to.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Good effort franco. Makes me wonder even more about just how really useful old pegs are?

Glad you're ok.

cheers
mark

In reply to Franco Cookson: How have your parents reacted? My mother was furious with me. She alternated between smothering me with affection and shouting at me for being so stupid which I was. At your age it's easy to think that you are invincible so incidents like this might well save you in the long run if you take heed. Hope you recover soon.

Al

In reply to Shani:

I'm not going to argue this as I find it difficult to criticise very dear friends, but the fact is that Jimmy's soloing encouraged Paul, even if he did solo prior to Jimmy's excesses.

Aint E9 with a pad!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I blame the trousers.

In reply to franksnb:

Climbing is very egotistical by nature.

We do it because it makes us feel good about ourselves!

Often climbers will head off to the hills leaving behind wives and girlfriends and kids, hopefully fully aware that the activity they are doing can lead to them coming back in a wheelchair or at worst a box..


We don't climb out of any altruistic motives!

I've given Franco a bit of grief in the past over some of his comments and attitudes, but i see nothing wrong in trying to climb a hard route in better style than the original ascent.

Its good to see a bit of footage which isn't a smooth ascent by a sponsored hero, but shows the reality of pushing the boat a little bit too far!

In reply to Hero of Alex:

Why not use top rope?
Why not just stay at home watching reality TV?

Of course it changes the climbing; climbing is just as much psychological as physical

In reply to Daniel Armitage:



As most people do everytime they head out on the roads!

In reply to Jimbo W:

I think the attitudes between soloing and headpointing can and usually are similar if not the same. You take a reckoning of the danger and expect to be successful. You can be 'careless', lucky or unlucky with either approach. Although headpointing is not exclusive to deckable routes, the outcomes can be the same as soloing.

In reply to simes303:

When I fell and broke my head I kept telling everyone I was fine and had to be physically restrained to stop me getting up and walking off.

In reply to Pylon King: Statistics are odd things aren't they and whilst what you say is true my experience tells me that there is something else going on here. I do not know anyone who has been killed in a road accident but I suspect that the number of climbers I know who have been killed climbing could run into double figures if I thought about it too much.

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:



Taking a twenty metre ground fall and walking away unscathed... I would feel MORE invincible after that!

In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

Also shows the benefit of being light .. if that happened to me it would cause a tsunami in The Pacific!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well, my initial thinking was that it would be the same as me climbing a route where I missed out gear placements making it more dangerous and I couldn't figure out why you would do that if you were leading it roped up. You could just solo the route.

In reply to simes303:

There's a certain type of head injury with which you have to be VERY careful as the victim can easily feel no harm and be walking and talking and laughing, when in fact some internal damage is intensifying more than if they lay still. The actress Natasha Richardson died from such an injury sustained whilst ski-ing last winter - nasty fall but was laughing it all off and saying she was fine, whilst waiting for the helicopter to arrive. Stretcher and hospital ASAP in these cases. I'm not saying that Richardson could have survived, nor that Franco's accident is comparable.

In reply to Hero of Alex:

At levels much lower than H9 you see these variations e.g. Technical Slab HS 4a at The Roaches...you can put side runners into the V Diff on the right but then you don't get the HS tick. There is gear higher up (on the easiest ground, granted) but soloing this route is not the same as leading without side runners. I skipped side runners once at Rivelin to make it VS tick rather than HS. This was egotistical and narcissistic, yes, but I did for the experience rather than the tick. I skipped the bolts on a retro-bolted VS in Gozo last May, for similar reasons.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I would echo that - the fact is pure and simple that climbing is dangerous, probably a lot more dangerous than many people think. And if it wasn't we wouldn't do it!

Chris

In reply to UKC News:

To those of you questioning the quality of the pegs higher up the thread. I'd just like to say that i was there when they were placed, the looked pretty solid and sounded it too, i think we gave them a fairly good testing too. Franco told me yesterday that one of them actually snapped rather than ripped...the route is also steeper than it looks in the video, more like the angle shown in my photo at the top on the news article.

Good to know you're ok though Franco.

(and to those of you that care, the rockfall can be seen in the background on the 'in flight' photo. That is the big flake that used to make up Soapflake and Cornflake.)

In reply to Dan Lane:

Was it the upper one that snapped?

It looked very strangely clipped to me.

In reply to UKC News:
shit the bed glad your reet buddy.

In reply to Pylon King:

Not sure which one snapped, but i can tell you that it was the best way to clip it. Because of the postioning of the eyelet, the way it was clipped, torqued the peg into the crack, hard to explain, but that was the best way to clip it it think. Hard to tell exactly how it was clipped from the video though.

In reply to UKC News:

Horrible video - good effort for posting it Franco. I suppose like a lot of people here, i'd be really interested in the outcome - did you get away totally unscathed? That sounds miraculous if that is the case. I don't have any legitimate reason for asking though other than pure noseyness, so if you'd rather keep your own counsel then i'd certainly respect that.

I had a big DWS fall a couple of years back (ok it was a jump post route) and broke two vertebra in my back. I was pretty down about recovery prospects but it really helped hearing others stories of recovering from similar injuries. My own injuries healed well and now i'd say i'm back at 90% function i.e. i can do whatever i did previously - it just aches a bit from time to time.

To echo what wee davie said above, i do think you need to evaluate the role your pyjamas played.

In reply to UKC News:

Glad you're ok man.

Rob

In reply to UKC News:

Glad you're OK, Franco.

jcm

In reply to Dan Lane:


I never like clipping krabs directly into a peg , much better IMHO to tie them off with a sling if possible

In reply to M0nkey:

I have a strangely large, but pain-free swollen ankle, a very bruised cocsix, a grazed elbow, a rope burn on my neck and a bumped head.

I can still tootle about though, so effectively unhurt. Pretty lucky really. I think the peg was placed the wrong way round, but the top peg was always a bit poor anyway and the bottom one turned out to be a stumpy 2 inch thing. Makes you think about trusting in-situ pegs..

In reply to Franco Cookson: Hey Franco, glad you are ok. Heal strong and fast.

S

I'd be pissed off with my belayer for not being on his feet to at least have a go at running to take the slack in,might not of helped but thats poor.
Hats off for the attempt,i wouldn't do it so can't be critical at all,its climbers that push themselves that push standards etc apart from poor belaying.
ian

In reply to Franco Cookson: cocsix is an absolute bugger. broke a peg not so long ago....really does make you think.

good effort though man, fair play for trying it and for being so open about everything you do. there will always be some haters witha different point of view no matter what

In reply to ianto9:

And from the other thread this is what Franco say's about that - "The mentalist threw himself backwards off a ledge without thinking, missing the mat and hurting his shoulder. "

Sounds like a good belayer to me...

In reply to ianto9:


You clearly have no idea what happened.

In reply to ianto9:

Wow! Have you really not bothered to read Franco's account of the super-human efforts that his belayer made to save him? Have you simply looked at the pic of Franco in flight and assumed 'his belayer is lying down!'...?

Re-read, then re-post.

In reply to Wee Davie: Got to disagree.

I thoroughly approve of those trousers.

In reply to jonny taylor:

There is no need to swear mate. I merely pointed out that he seemed to be walking, but was then on a stretcher.
Chill out.

Apologies didn't read it properly,glad he's ok

In reply to jonny taylor:


...and there was a news report on here recently about a guy who fell down a mountain cliff unroped and walked away, so don't be so quick to assume that a fall equals a stretcher.

In reply to UKC News:

Gutsy lead - glad to hear you've escaped with no permanent injury.

If I knew someone was going to film me, I'd change out of my pyjamas

In reply to tri-nitro-toulumne: Bright and tight becomes baggy and muted.

In reply to tri-nitro-toulumne:

That's obviously where he went wrong, he'd have flashed it in a pair of dayglo Rock Skins.

Glad you're OK Franco.

In reply to tri-nitro-toulumne:

I guess he's blown his chances of a sponsorship deal with Tesco, then.

In reply to UKC News:

I take it that from your blog entry your not getting back on it any time soon?

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Fair enough Franco. You know your motivations better than anyone and I think you're commendably honest about them - so maybe a little less immature than you think.

There must be some safe E9s out there, hope you manage to get up one.

Glad you're in one piece.

So Franco, whats scarier? Taking this fall or factor twoing 100ft up above the sea and ripping 2/3rds of your belay?

Still got Fou psyche?

In reply to Will_Thomas_Harris:

Pabbay I reckon. Or holding Chris's 90 footer on the dru looking at my rocking spike belay. I wasn't really that scared on this one until I looked down at my massively slack rope and started hitting stuff. Defo not stoked for this kind of mental outing anymore.

Psyched for the Fou though- hard and safe!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

...I noticed that when I do somethings in everyday life that I have niggles or some underlying doubts in my mind and I am being watched I randomly whistle...do you normally whistle ...or was it a being videoed thing...just wondered about whistling when it isn't full on whistling a tune...

keep yer pecker up...

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Take care Franco, someone was smiling on you that day!

In reply to UKC News: good effort, odd motivation to miss gear (but thats your perogative), but, would using two rpoes had lessened the impact on the pegs? Just a thought not a criticism.

In reply to UKC News: In the video-still, you clearly have a webbed-hand. Freak.

In reply to Dave Warburton: mystery solved. http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/A4593E9E-BF7E-4C0F-B860-EB29D2170EF1/...

In reply to Franco Cookson:

As in Simon horrocks or another fou ?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Nasty fall mate, hope you're ok. But out of interest, did you choose not to use twin ropes, which would make the gear that your tight on when youre on the ground a fair bit tighter without the slack from the pegs ripping, and you could have clipped a rope on each peg and equalize them. Although it's good to see ambition and a good pure effort to try it without siderunners, in future you might aswell give yourself the best/safest chance if you're gona headpoint it.
You also seemed to climb the moves without much conviction, had you worked out a definite sequence much beforehand or was it still a bit open to intuition? Best on such serious routes as this (have you done many other E9s?!) to be confident and sure of your climbing, however close to your limit it is.

Best of luck in your future climbing, keep learning.

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

It was a last minute thing. Everyone was off for a boulder at the Knarr and I just lobbed my shunting rope in. Felt bomber on a shunt so went for it. If the pegs hadn't ripped I'd have been a lot worse off as the pendulum into the gully would have at least broken my ankles.

I often whistle.

In reply to Dan Lane:

Hard to be sure from the footage, but I agree with Pylon King that the peg looks like it could have been clipped better to avoid torque being applied to the eye. If it wasn't bomber it probably would have pulled anyway... Good effort, though, Franco, Im glad I've got a lid like yours!

In reply to Franco Cookson: wow, lucky result. you must be made of rubber. keep it safe from now on mind you, I reckon that used up most of your 9 lives.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Num Num once took a similar fall to yours but not quite as far, about one metre onto some slack in the toprope. It resulted in his climbing harness giving him a wedgie.

In reply to UKC News: Dont show it your mum Franco. Poor woman. Take care.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Crikey, chief! Glad you're alright, stay safe. =o)

In reply to UKC News:
You've used one of your nine lives there. On the positive side, you still have eight lives left. Possibly.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Really glad you're ok. Hope you get well soon.

In reply to UKC News: get back on it, you'll be fine!.....Break a leg!!

In reply to Souljah: I fail to see how a pad is going to help in the event of a 20m ground fall. Please enlighten me...

In reply to handjammer:

20m onto hard rocky ground hurts a lot

20m onto a pad hurts not quite so much

Simples

In reply to Souljah: Franco wouldn't have been claiming E9 anyway.

In reply to handjammer:

I think the pad was for the belayer to jump onto, rather than for franco to land on.

In reply to handjammer:

In Num Nums case, a panty pad would probably help

In reply to UKC News: Why is this news?

In reply to tatty112:

It was quite an exiting event wouldn't you say? Good in that it shows the other side of the coin, what can happen when things don't go totally smoothly (unusual on a headpoint). History not just being told by the winners and all that.

In reply to tatty112:

Why is it not?

Beats the heck out of adverts for gear promoted as "News" IMO.

Si

Tatty you massive bore!

I for one enjyed watching such a mental fall

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Have you got a wee bit of feline DNA? That's got to be at least a few of your 9 lives used up!

Hope you recover quick and get back out soon.

In reply to UKC News:
Good that you are alive!!!
Be careful with swollen painless joints...the pain helps us take care of the injuries, while a painless injury can become a chronic one due to lack of adequate treatment.
Lucky was on your side! Celebrate that! Celebrate also that now you really know the price one may pay. Keep climbing and use this extrem incident to become a better climber/man...sometimes these are one-in-a-lifetime experiences.
Cheers

In reply to UKC News: Hi Franco, I don't know you, it's not my place to say this and it's probably already been said but having now seen this and the video of you decking and rolling from a grit solo I can only conclude that it's simply a matter of time. I respectfully suggest you get a better measure of yourself and things before you properly wreck yourself or worse.

Of course, you may already have had all these dialogues with yourself or others and decided that you're aware of the actual risks and happy to live, or die, with the consequences. In which case go forth and be lucky!

In reply to ksjs: It's worth reading Franco's blog. He is indeed having these dialogues at the moment.

In reply to Blue Straggler: What I don't get is that there is just so much utterly gobsmacking and amazing climbing out there which largely avoids the potential for death.

Why would I ever knowingly weigh all that potential against the toss of a coin today and decide that the risk stacked up?

Still, it's easy to be wise with hindsight, this is all very personal stuff and we're all very different in what we value and seek.

In reply to ksjs: Because we dont see it as a toss of a coin, it comes from extraudinary self belief that we can complete a route, the possibility of death and being able to master the situation is part of what drives us. we could climb everything with lovely bolts or even top ropes but it doesnt cut it, some people need to push it further than others.

if you look at it logically of course theres no point to it and its stupid really but its also great fun!

In reply to tradattack: You write as if I am totally artless and have no idea what I'm talking about. This is not so, I appreciate both sides.

Your comments come across as naive and overly romantic; Franco appears very capable and a great character but his ability to assess risk and weigh his skills against this seems to lack too regularly. Not much mastery of the situation going on here...

In reply to Ian Milward:

I wasn't sure about the peg clipping either after PK's comment prompted me to take another look at the video, but I chatted to Franco and the video is just a little mis-leading. This may help!!:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=8621887&l=ef9571685c&id=61891...

In reply to ksjs:

To be fair, your original post sounds rather naive and gives the impression that you don't grasp the fact that different people are motivated by different people.

As an aside, how does questioning his motivation help anybody after the event (especially when he himself has hardly been shy about the effect this has had on his likely future approach to bold routes)?

In reply to victim of mathematics: I think what you and tradattack are failing to grasp is that Franco seems to be a poor judge of when to go for it andf when to say, 'actually no I'm not ready for this' (this being the second video he stacks it off a route and hits the deck.

ksjs is pretty experianced if you look at his logbook. I don't know him very well so can't comment on his boldness.

Risk assessment is surely a valuable skill when pushing it 'further than others', how do you know you are more capable than others, or capable enough for the route in question?

Undeniably a bold effort, but you do look sketchy as on it Franco mate.

Where are the side runners? it seems as though you climb past them?

speedy recovery you fat otter....

In reply to Duncan Campbell: in that first line i meant to say you are failing to grasp that ksjs is saying he seems to be a poor judge of etc etc.

he isnt saying that Franco shouldn't do dangerous things, but is just trying to keep him in one piece.

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

I personally don't think Franco looks sketchy, okay his foot pops and it made me shudder but up until there he seems pretty solid, and that is the crux. I've seen worse (heart-in-mouth moments for the viewer) in a lot of proper climbing films with well known top climbers (can't think of any examples off the top of my head but I'm sure we've all seen them)!

In reply to Duncan Campbell: > (In reply to victim of mathematics) I think what you and tradattack are failing to grasp is that Franco seems to be a poor judge of when to go for it andf when to say, 'actually no I'm not ready for this'


Can we actually make a judgement on whether his judgement is poor or not. For this we have to put to one side outcomes, favourable or otherwise, and look at the choices in isolation. If those choices were made within two parameters my opinion is that he chose ok. Those being 1. Did he appreciate the actual risks 2. The level of risk he is personally prepared to take and more than that the self-understanding arrive at that. Sometimes self-kidology is needed to even attempt a bold route. Fascinating subject. More here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1237

In reply to shark: Actually, Franco may be making good (but lucky) judgements, on both these ground falls he's managed to avoid serious injury

On a lighter note (since Franco's ok), it's a shame that the friend taking the video didn't keep it going for the whole of the fall. I'm sure I'd have done exactly the same but professionals keep it going and would then discard the footage if there's a nasty ending.

Finally - Franco, get well and are you now going to do it with side runners?

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

I made no comment on Franco's judgement, nor, if you actually read what I said, did I say that ksjs was failing to grasp anything. I merely pointed out that his first post made it sound like he was, maybe he try to convey his point better if he doesn't want to be thought of as naïve and artless. His climbing pedigree is somewhat moot.

I still don't see how trying to dissect the failings or otherwise of Franco's judgement is, at best pointless, and at worst very arrogant.

He's not dead, and he seems to have changed his outlook somewhat, now move along and stop with this bizarre psychological rubbernecking.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

You said on FB that at blade page was upside-down which is probably why it snapped. Right way up the eye rests against the rock and stops the blade flexing, upside-down the leverage will allow it to bend/break.

Chris

In reply to UKC News:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1450557/VIDEO-60ft-Ground-Fall-he-w...

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Just glad you're ok, certainly freaked me out!

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

That move is sketchy. You have a really bad hold with your left hand and have to try and get your foot really close by it. I don't think you're in a position to say whether or not I am poor at decision making. You barely know me and that broken hand thing was just prating around on a rainy day.

Go try it!

In reply to ksjs:

i write in response to what you have written....i dont have a lot else to go off!

if you think about it though all trad climbing is about mastering a situation, saying i am good enough to get up there, to place the gear and make the moves. we could have it safer (ignoring environmental debates) we could bolt it all but we dont and we are outraged when its suggested. so to some degree or other mastering the danger is part of it for all of us - how far we push it and what we deem acceptable is personal.

on a route like that one little mistake and your off, it happens, even to the best, you would have to admit that 2 pegs going is somewhat unlucky so it would be fair to say that his original estimation of his position was altered beyond his control.

yea it went wrong but youre just sitting tapping pointless judgement on your computer without the full grasp of the situation.

to be honest most of the top climbers have a ridiculous perspective on risk but thats part of what makes them great

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Is this the same guy who encourages climbers on their first VS slate route who he has never met before, to jump on an adjacent E1??

Mmmmmmmmm.... You seem to be forming a habit of 'thinking you know what's best for other climbers' Dunc!
That's not a very humble habit

Just so you know like...

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

also quite ironic given his stance in the thread

In reply to ksjs: Its a tad unfair to judge someone on one video and a few other falls you've heard about. I think you have to really know someone to understand their judgements, a few instances of bad luck (potentially) do not make someones judgement poor. I didn't take many falls when I was climbing regularly, but there was a lot of thank god moments: a piece of gear, a decent hold, a decent stance etc. If these went the other way then maybe Id have taken long falls and be seen as a dangerous climber? Franco is maybe a little unfortunate as his climbing seems to be played out in the UKC soap opera ever since that Kellets route incident (not sure if he was actually involved directly in this though?), but I don't think its fair game to go and criticise his actions and judgement with skeletal details of them.

Glad your OK Franco, ill now dispense some probably useless advice but here goes. I gave up winter climbing the other year in considerably less spectacular circumstances, but let it filter through into the rest of my climbing as i stopped training and got crap and so fed up. I now race my road bike instead, im not sure its any safer tbh. From my experience keeping on climbing immediately would seem to be the remedy, reassess your attitude to risk for sure, but separate the actual issue (climbing v.bold routes) form climbing in general. Im sure you've probably already grasped this though.

In reply to UKC News:

In America.... http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1450557/VIDEO-60ft-Ground-Fall-he-w...

In reply to UKC News:

To be fair to Franco, it does seem like he gets a lot of mileage in. Given that he's headpointed E8 and going from his profile he's on-sighted E6, seems to me that he has plenty of past form when it comes to making the right decisions. You climb enough, eventually you're going to hurt yourself.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

Let's get those yanks over on UKC eh Mick?

In reply to ksjs:

Correct, correct, correct.

E

In reply to UKC News: Right. This video has been a bit of a white elephant in the room. Everytime I come on here it sits there.

Not really into snuff films, despite the fact that he survives. Just how horrific is it?

Should I watch it?

In reply to Michael Hood:


Its more of a shame to think that what makes a professional photographer is the ability to block out the possible death of a friend in front of you to get the full footage rather than your first thought being to sling the camera and see he is alright. The fact they turned off the camera in that instance is a good reflection on them I reckon. Serious climbing is always about dicing with death to some extent but adding a video camera does make it more macabre. Very pleased for the man that he got away with it. Just watching that video will make me think twice over the next few weeks.

In reply to Mark Reeves:

It's fine.

The film ends before he hits the floor and starts again with him obviously very much alive. There is no gore or distress on display.

In reply to Franco: You should contact Nash Entertainment (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_Entertainment). They produce "Most Shocking" and "The World's Most Amazing Videos".

It could prove quite lucrative for you and fund your future (sport) climbing career! It could also fund a small dontion to Edale MR should you so wish.

In reply to UKC News:
I was more shocked by the spelling than the fall!

In reply to UKC News: It seems like many people have missed that this comes in at 7a, something even the top climbers could wobble on. Secondly he tries it in better style (which brits are obsessed with) than the previous ascents. He falls off and has a very lucky scrape and now has a much better and probably more mature outlook on life, well done I say.

Good to see that you are essentially fine!

In reply to tradattack:
"to be honest most of the top climbers have a ridiculous perspective on risk but thats part of what makes them great "

You really think so? I think quite a few of them have very admirable attitudes to risk.
James

In reply to Mark Reeves:


Yes, but not because it's funny, entertaining or anything sick like that.
James

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Good effort on managing to blow it yet come away pretty much unscathed! (you're obviously incredibly lucky)

I found your blog entry on the subject of how ego affects climbers' reporting and grading of routes interesting. Well written and thought through and tackles the subject from a different angle to most other folk.

In reply to SCC: Relatively unknown climber hits the deck and survives with minor injuries..... not exactly news.

Maybe I should write an article about what I did today

In reply to tatty112: Wow, did you take a 20m groundfall off an E9?! You should definitely write an article.

In reply to tatty112:

Yes, I think you should. You could start it something like:

"Today I took churlishness to a new level..."

In reply to UKC News:
Not sure what I'm supposed to think about this video/story. Should I be:
congratulating Franco for escaping being paralyzed through sheer luck,
berating him for so carelessly putting himself in a risky situation without the skills and, seemingly, preparation (did you drop test those pegs, consider screamers/equalizing the pegs, or consider skinnier double ropes, have it totally wired) to see it through successfully or,
applauding his boldness for choosing to go for it despite everything.

All three I suppose - well done lucky bold guy, but that was a bit dumb and predictable. Luckily you've managed to live through a few mistakes.

If I could make assumptions for a second - you obviously decided that the onsight or groundup weren't options for you, but it appears, from watching the video and reading what you wrote, that you didn't get to a point where you were nailing it cleanly on TR 9 times out of 10 before going for the headpoint, on a dangerous E9 with a probable 20m groundfall from the crux. I assume from that decision that you thought the 2 pegs would probably hold you in the - not so highly unlikely - event that you blew the crux, which leads back to the lack of preparation in not drop-testing them etc etc. Sorry to fault-find, but it appears from the limited info that there was some weak decision-making going on.
There seems to be more than a few similarities here with Will Gadd's thoughts on people falling off ice climbs ( http://gravsports.blogspot.com/ ) - which boil down to 'anything less than mastery is bad style'. Mastery of sketchy ice-climbing comes through extensive top-roping to acquire the movement patterns and familiarity to stay safe on routes, it doesn't come through leading up dangerous routes by the skin of your teeth until the one time you don't (unless you're very lucky and always successfully sketch up lots and lots of hard routes until you acquire enough experience not to sketch anymore); the same would appear to apply to headpointing badly protected hard routes, since by definition you're using top-rope practice as a tool.

To somebody above - If you didn't want people on the internet to pass ill-informed judgment you wouldn't send a video and story of you decking off a(nother) route to ukc. Lots of people have climbing accidents, most don't send vids of them to ukc.

Seriously I am glad you weren't badly hurt though.

In reply to UKC News:
Glad to hear your okay franco and still able to walk !
Looks to me like your belayer deserves a pint IF you decked out on the stretch.Guess i'll not be seeing you in el chod then big man ?

take it easy chief ja

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Well said Franco.

Glad you came out of it in one piece and hope you get your head together soon.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!

In reply to wayno265:

....then I had my tea, watched some telly, then went to bed.

In reply to Removed User:

Unless it maims you, psychologically or physically.


Chris

In reply to Removed User:


eventually kills you

In reply to petejh:

10 years ago+ this is what made a good post climb/pub story if you knew who was involved or were part of the Chinese whispers which followed. These days it's just a click and the masses can dissect and replay to the event as often as they want before concluding their own point of view on the incident from whatever previous experience they have had climbing.

In reply to Franco Cookson: In among all this talk, just like to say massive respect for getting on it, and more respect for taking all this nonsense over it. It is inspiring to see someone out there willing to push hard for something other than sponsor chasing. Really glad to hear you're alright, I can only guess what the fall must have felt like in the air! Falling half as far into space on good gear has had me screaming like a schoolgirl.
I have seen a few of your posts about, and find it refreshing to see you put your money where your mouth is. Lets hear it for trying to live up to the challenges the rock presents us with! There are some of us out here who are proud to be part of a strong tradition of trad ethics, and repeats in good style, and you are clearly a real activist keeping that tradition alive. Whether or not you do any more bold headpointing, just getting on that route in that style is a flipping awesome achievement, and a new bar is set for future attempts. Nice one!

In reply to petejh:



HE DIDN'T SEND IT TO UKC. UKC SAW IT ON THE FORUMS- he wasn't even consulted about it.

In reply to craig h:

wow wow wow what he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^
100% nail on head!!! Well done my friend.

E

In reply to ksjs:

Yeah but gobsmacking climbing alone won't get you noticed unless it's really hard or death defying, and Franco doesnt climb hard enough to be noticed on hard safe routes, so death-defying it must be.

I dont know what your motivations are Franco, but I know that pushing your boundaries is rewarding. However, like ksjs says theres a lot of great climbing out there, bold and exciting as you like without having such grave consequences. Know your limits and listen to your inner dialogue.
Have you read Proposterous Tales? The bit about Meshuga seems relevant. E9s are hard and serious, and even if that route was within your ability, you dont seem to go about your attempt with the respect that a route of that nature demands, but hopefully you will learn and grow from it. Best of luck.

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

I was impressed by your ascent of the medium. I struggled a lot on heading the shot and that looks way harder. And I don't pretend to be any better than you Bangor crew- I'm crap at onsighting and haven't even got on proper routes up in Wales yet.

I'm weak and I like it, stoked for new routes up amazing blank features, inspired by the NY Moors scene and activists like Pete Whittaker in the peak, out there trying cool stuff. New routing is such a rewarding experience, I love the small number of things I've done and how they define me as a person.

My judgement is fine. I knew there was about a 75% chance of doing it and knew that a fall was going to result in broken ankles or worse, even with the pegs holding. What was wrong with my attempt was thinking that 75% chance of climbing it was a reasonable success rate to get on it. Which it wasn't. I'm going to try something harder, safer and more inspiring- at the same quarry

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Where's the E9 come from? I've seen it mentioned a few times.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Cheers man, yeah they're both desperate, but not as much between them as the grades say, you just need a strong right leg really.


Better than sex. Did my first new route the other day at Tremadog, felt amazing!


Theres more to climbing than grit quarries and little esoteric crags, however good the odd hidden gem may be. Classics are classics for a reason, you should give them a try some time.

In reply to Franco Cookson: I admire your view on this. I can appreciate your optimism, the 'invincibility of youth'. You said you had a 75% chance, that's good to go. You hit 25%, unluckly. IMHO go for it, the opportunity comes but rarely.

Andy F

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

If you think new routing is better than sex, maybe you're doing it wrong (or is it perhaps that I've been doing new routing wrong? I've enjoyed the first ascents I've done, but not THAT much!)

In reply to andy farnell & Franco:
Fair enough if that's your standard, but I really don't think I'd be happy with 75% chance of success. Four new routing attempts, and the probability is high you'd have a broken leg/back/head.

That's a short career.

Obviously everyone is free to make their own judgements on the risks they want to expose themselves to, and maybe some folks get more satisfaction from succeeding when they know the odds weren't great as opposed to waiting until they have it totally wired and the chances of failure are very low.

Personally, if I'm gonna onsight, I'll onsight (and I've taken lots and lots of falls off safe things onsighting). If I'm going to headpoint, I'm going to make sure I'm sure enough that I'm not risking six months out of climbing for the sake of.. I don't even know what.

A final reminder - that's my opinion, I'm not trying to say it should be anyone else's. Feel free to ignore it at will.

Pete.

Hannes and tradattack have referred to "top climbers" in a manner that demeaningly excludes Franco. I'd say that he easily earns his place in the group that you call "top climbers". What are your criteria?

In reply to Only a hill:

Climbing is better than sex. In so many ways.

Keep the psyche, Franco.

In reply to jon:

I don't know about the others but Tony Wilmot died after a fall while scrambling back up an easy route in town shoes on his way home to where he lived above the Avon Gorge... Not really a rock climbing accident as such, just bad luck and a slip.

In reply to UKC News: the things some people will do for a bit of attention.
Don't get me wrong I'm glad he's ok.
Van imagine him sat on pc thinking "this threads below half way,time for a bump"
I uess the reason there are not many accidents on hard routes is because most climbers know when to walk away and admit they aint good enough for said challenge.
Can this reply keep it where it is on the forum and not send it to the top?

In reply to UKC News:
Franco your mum is gonna ground you when she find out what you've been up to....

Good effort, this can only serve to make you a better climber and 'bounce' back if you'll parden the pun.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

No disrespect to Franco (I'm sure he doesn't refer to himself as such), but my criteria for a "top climber" would be a lot more than onsighting a few E6s and one possible E8 headpoint.

If those were the criteria then I'd be considered by you to be a "top climber". I am no such thing. I'm not even close.

"Top climbers" are the ones consistently going out and on-sighting or ground-upping E7s and E8s most weeks on UK trad. Or in world sport climbing onsighting 8b-8c+ and redpointing in the 9s. The difference is huge!

In reply to mark s:


Bump... Ouch!

In reply to ali k: I'm sure Franco wouldn't consider himself a 'top' climber hence my comments about whether this is really news worthy.

To whoever commented above about me taking a 20m ground fall off an E9....... I wasn't aware Franco's route he was trying was an E9, might be a bit contentious to suggest it is.

In reply to tatty112:

If you add, and the fall was video'd, and the fall was 60ft and it turns into a good news item.

It was new - it had just happened, a recent event and looking at all the attention, of broad interest to many climbers, that was obvious.

So yes it was news. News is more than hard ascents by top climbers.

In reply to ali k:


Semantics. I'm going to guess that Franco's efforts put him in the top 100 of UK-based climbers. Maybe not an "elite" level of performance, but better than most.

E6 on-sighters have headpointed E9 before, and I suspect that Franco would have done so too had he worked it a bit more comprehensively.

In reply to Toreador:

Franco, if he's still monitoring this thread should pay attention the last comment (currently) on that thread. Reproduced below for ease:

'Sorry justthemaid, I had to chuckle at your comment, "Fortuitous that they brought that crash pad along since it looks like he landed at least partially on it."

At 70 feet?!! Below is a bit of education, from my past line of work, for those that aren't familiar:

National Registry of Emergency Medical Technicians, Adult Trauma Triage Guidelines:

If this:

STEP III : MECHANISM OF INJURY (Required Consult with Medical Command, when Available)
•Ejection from Motor Vehicle
•Extrication > 20 min with an injury
•Falls > 20 feet
•Unrestrained Passenger in Vehicle Roll Over
•Pedestrian, Motorcyclist or Pedalcyclist
Thrown or Run Over

Then this:

To TRAUMA CENTER
with ALS (Advanced Life Support)
if available



Injuries Due to Falls from Heights
Carol R. Schermer MD, FACS

"Falls remain a significant cause of morbidity and mortality. At most trauma centers, falls are the primary mechanism of injury resulting in admission for children. Factors determining the probability of serious injury in a fall are the distance of the fall, the landing surface, orientation on falling, and whether the fall was broken. Factors contributing to falls from heights include faulty equipment, such as ladders and scaffold structures, and human factors, such as intoxication and inattention. In occupational settings, the most common type of accident is a fall from a height.1 The brain, spinal cord, and extremities are the most commonly injured systems. Falls from more than 20 feet have historically been triaged to trauma centers, but even low-level falls can cause serious head injuries."2,3

2. Murray JA, Chen D, Velmahos GC, et al: Pediatric falls: Is height a predictor of injury and outcome? Am Surg 66(9):863-865, 2000

3. Kennedy RL, Grant PT, Blackwell D: Low-impact falls: Demands on a system of trauma management, prediction of outcome, and influence of comorbidities. J Trauma 51(4):717-724, 2001



At 70 feet, landing on a 4-6" crash pad isn't going to decrease the incidence of a brain, spinal cord, or extremity injury. The momentum generated at 70 feet is just too great, and organs start to seperate from their attachments.

You might consider the above information the next time you witness anyone take a fall >20 feet, even if it is onto a Mondo pad or even if they get up and walk away from it! Been there, seen that, and watched people drop dead in front of me. Believe me, you don't want to be put in that position. Get on your cell and call 911, it's what you ought to (the least you should) do!'

Having watched the clip to the point where I feel sick... I can understand where posters are coming from here. Those that maintain the freedom to choose and those that want Franco to rein it in. The latter remember an incident on Ben Nevis involving a poster here, then later that same poster died in the Alps in an abseiling incident, and seeing it as an inevitable progression. Nobody wants to see that happen again. Yet, there's no reason why it should. Incidents needn't be the accumulation of judgements, just a one-off clicking up of all the lemons.

Good luck Franco for a swift and complete recovery.

In reply to JJL:

He fell off and E9 and survived. How can it be E9 without a death fall?

In reply to Removed User:

because its 7a

In reply to Removed User:


Insert www.ukgradingsystemexplained.com !

In reply to Removed User:

Now which bit of the UK grading system don't you understand?

This http://bobwightman.co.uk/climb/uk_grades.php seems to be the usual link to post in such circumstances.

As for the fall, it looks like he hits something at about half height just before the "Jack stops filming" caption which may have slowed him down a little so not a full 20m flight so it's unlikely that the final impact force was what you'd expect from a straight 20m drop (also the rope may just have been coming tight taking even more energy out of the impact) but even so it didn't look nice.

Finally - why stop filming? If you are filming then film, it doesn't mean to say that you can't edit it afterwards. If the outcome had been more serious then you would have had firm evidence to show to the medics as to the injuries sustained. Just a thought.

ALC

In reply to Removed User:

"He fell off and E9 and survived. How can it be E9 without a death fall"?

Parthian Shot and The Big Issue are E9 and have taken numerous falls. I'm sure there are others.
Equilibrium is E10 and has taken at least one.

In reply to a lakeland climber:

"Finally - why stop filming? If you are filming then film, it doesn't mean to say that you can't edit it afterwards. If the outcome had been more serious then you would have had firm evidence to show to the medics as to the injuries sustained. Just a thought".

If you were filming a friend walking down the street and they got attacked, would you carry on filming?

In reply to MJ:

Would depend on the situation and how close (in physical location) I was to my friend. If I was on the other side of a busy street then carrying on filming and trying to get good shots of the attackers may well be the best option. Not an easy call.

In the video shown, carrying on filming would have been the better action to take for the reason I gave before. If Franco had been knocked out then the video would have been able to provide information to the paramedics of other possible injuries that he had sustained.

ALC

In reply to ali k:

I've only headpointed H7 actually, but record it as E8 in


You're right, I'm not a top climber- I know at least 10 people in my university club who are better at climbing than me and thats one semi-active club in a not extremely-climbing centered city.

What there aren't many of though is people going out and climbing new routes whether it's winter or summer. I'm absolutely amazed that someone of my low level of ability can climb routes which are almost of national significance and I hope my (almost) achievements will inspire somebody with actual ability to go and push the boat out a little and climb some ground-breaking routes.

In reply to Franco Cookson: nice reply Franco ,you hit the nail on the head when you said dingy quarry .respect for your balls ....

In reply to Franco Cookson: I've watched thisa a few times now - reminded me of my own accident lots of years ago.
Firstly - it very much looks like a fall at a different angle might not have been so bad - big ups to your belayer.
Secondly - you knew the risks & you went for it - respect.

In reply to a lakeland climber: I stopped filming for no reason other than just some natural reaction I guess. Just a moment of panic, and I pressed the button off and on again. At the time I was only consciously thinking "where's my mobile?" before speaking to Franco to make sure he was 'alright', and then calling the ambulance. The whole thing was all a bit surreal really.

In reply to Bl@ckhawkjac: Good priorities. Certainly the sort of perosn I would be more than happy to climb with. Glad you are mostly OK Franco - apart from the slight case of insanity

In reply to Dee:


That poster (Ian Jackson) was a good friend of Franco's, and I dont think you should be suggesting what you are (even a couple of years down the line).

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


Spot on. For those of you questioning my judgment I'll copy my blog entry about the route before I got on it. Fairly accurate:

"Finally today I felt like I was in a position to lead it, but not before I got reminded of the difficulty and brutality of the crux. I was confident before today that my recent finger strength gains would make the crux feel easy and a lot more secure, but I learnt that this route had very little to do with finger strength and was going to feel incredibly on/off however good you were. Such thoughts made me think of the eventual grade.

The last runner is a peg, which flexes. Even with this holding, you're looking at a 15 metre, ground-scraping (and definite injury on ledges) fall."

Like I said before, the issue that needs addressing is the fact that still I got on the route when I knew that,

In reply to Franco Cookson: Sorry about the above post matey, not entirely sure what I was trying to say, was in the middle of a coursework haze, and definatley didn't articulate what I wanted to say properly.

Hope you are fully recovered. Dunc

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I didn't really get JIB's point, but part of the reaction to this video as seen in this thread is due to the fact that Franco has chosen to put much of his climbing life on the net and has publicized it through his outspoken and at time ill-advised or combative regular posting here. Unfortunately that means he can't make his mistakes in private, whether it is falling off here or getting avalanched on Ben Nevis.

I'm very glad the internet wasn't around when I was teenager learning to climb!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I agree with you. I had to take a deep breath and not reply this morning. Its a nothing statement too. There was no inevitability about it.

Its condescending to suggest that Franco winds his kneck in so to speak. Hes big enough to make his own decisions along with his climbing partners.

In reply to MJ.

You jackasses are too easy...

In reply to ali k:

Hi, you are probably right....to be honest I was deliberately stretching a point and it wasn't aimed at you specifically, but more generally a few posters have essentially been saying that Franco isn't good enough to have earned the right to even be trying what he was trying here. I think someone (maybe on the other thread) suggested that Franco had fallen well short of performing some arbitrary minimum number (9-10!) of top rope attempts before going for the headpoint. I was just trying to balance things out, though it was buried in subtext admittedly. Cheers

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


I don't even think that's true to be honest. I can't be arsed to make a list, and obviously it depends what disciplines you're talking about, but if we took, say, bouldering and trad climbing (which I guess he does most of?) then I could name well over 50 people climbing significantly harder than Franco. And that doesn't include the "big names" that you will read about on here. As he says himself, there are 10 people just in his club that are better! I think you're grossly underestimating the number of good climbers in the UK. Just because things don't get reported on UKC it doesn't mean they're not happening.


I'm not arguing with that, but what does that prove?
If you haven't already read it there's a good article by Grimer which explains how and when the British perception of what 'hard climbing' was went off the rails.
http://tinyurl.com/66h6cwd

If you made a list of the "Top 100 UK-based climbers doing slabby chop routes" then I guess he might make it on there!

In reply to ali k:

Thanks for the link to that article, made a really interesting read.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC: Was it News?

Having worked up the courage to watch the video, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. However I have a tendency to agree with Mick in whether or not this is news worthy, although before I read through this thread and saw what the debate was, I might have disagreed on general principle.

Just looking at this thread it has provoked thought and opinion from all manner of climbers. More so than say another perfect ascent of an E7/8/9/10.

Hopefully it has highlighted our possible fragility of our exsistence, and the decisions we make, good or bad when we climb. There but for the grace of god etc....(well not god, as I am a non-believer), so maybe there but for the grace of our skill, judgement and a steady head when we step into the lion's den, who know just how close we have all been to disaster?

.....and Franco that was a fooking miracle you survived, let alone that relatively unscathed!

In reply to UKC News: Ouch, wishing you a speedy recovery!

In reply to UKC News:
Blimey Franco! Get well soon.

In reply to ali k:

Top 100 was a fairly arbitary suggestion; the main point I was trying to make is that Franco is at the more able end of the spectrum.

Although the contention that trad (and particularly grit) is not the key benchmark is a valid one, how many UK climbers have truly on-sighted E7? 20-30 perhaps? So on-sighting E6s is not that far below the cutting edge; it certainly gave Franco the experience to pick a harder headpoint target. Just a shame that he didnt practice it more; I think there was maybe still a bit of the onsight mentality in evidence?

In reply to UKC News:

Fair play to the camera man for caring enough to stop filming and get to action.

Get well soon Franco

Fex

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I've no idea - good question.

By the same token, you could ask whether Franco has truly on-sighted E6. If I remember correctly it was a highball boulder problem on the NY moors. Have there been any others? And he admits on his blog that he struggles to on-sight proper E5s.

Ok fair enough. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put Franco down. I just thought that lumping him in with the true "top climbers" was pushing it a little far, as well as doing British climbing a bit of a disservice!

In reply to ali k:

This is a bit like talking about someone at full volume when they're in the room...

Tony

In reply to Franco Cookson:


So did Macleod on Echo Wall, Dawes on Indian Face, Birkett on Six Was Nine, etc. The difference is perhaps (certainly with Dave on EW) that they had achieved the sort of intimacy with the route that allowed them to be fairly confident that there was little element of chance.

Nothing wrong with your ambition; probably just need to work on the headpointing so that you have the same level of security on bold leads.

In reply to ali k:

Like this one?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=48200

In reply to ali k:


There's no need to drill the point home- my coccyx is currently telling me far more strongly than you can that I'm not a top climber...

This is about the approach to climbing though. I got it wrong- too adventurous, not enough ability, too bold. Far more people are at the other end of the scale- really strong boulderers/ on bolts, but never create anything really special because they are too afraid of risking this kind of thing.

Ultimately I know I can get stronger and better and will one day create something really worth while, those people with power and no drive will not.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Sage

In reply to Franco Cookson:



Franco - sorry, I think I can take some blame for inadvertently fuelling this "is Franco a top climber" silliness. I admire your attitude to this whole incident.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Strong boulderers / bolt climbers are typically highly driven but not driven by the same things you are so don't start judging them by your own frame of reference. I hope you get stronger and better one day too and also less ignorant.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Yet nobody on the forums seems to be mentioning this in relation to Calum Muskett on Rare Lichen. From the DMM website: "Calum coolly and swiftly led the route after a couple of go's [sic] on a top-rope"

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Sorry Franco I didn't mean to pick on you. It still just shocks me how many people think onsighting E5/6 and headpointing E8/9, especially on grit style routes, is anywhere near cutting edge.

Why are their creations not special just because they're not going to hurt themselves if they fall off? Are you honestly saying routes like Biographie or La Rambla aren't special, and that Sharma and Ondra should be risking their necks in some sh*tty quarry instead? As Shark said, that was a pretty ignorant comment. Strong boulderers and sport climbers will be a hell of a lot more driven than you. That I can guarantee.

Hope the recovery goes ok, and be careful in future!

In reply to Franco Cookson:


For some people, climbing something hard on boulders or bolts is special *to them* - you can't apply your criteria to others.

Anyway, I completely understand what you're saying; it's getting the balance right, especially when you wish to be on the 'pushing it' end of things. It seems you've got this figured out now; best of luck for the future!

In reply to Franco Cookson:


This type of comment really winds me up. Since when did you have the right to decide what's worthwhile and what's not? Personally, I like onsight trad climbing. That's where I want to excel. I train hard for it, I do a lot of sport climbing too, to help me improve at trad climbing, and also because I really like it. I'm fully aware that there's plenty of folk out there who just concentrate on bouldering and sport climbing, or indeed long distance running, origami, and chess, who work a lot harder, and are a lot more dedicated, to achieve something that to them, means a lot.

Boldness isn't a replacement for fitness and strength. Don't kid yourself that doing bold routes is in someway noble, glorious, or heroic. It's individual choice. A well rounded climber does it all. One of my long term aims is to climb french 8a, flash an E8, climb a scottish VIII, and do a Font 8A boulder problem. I know for sure that the boulder problem is going to take a lot more work than the rest!

In reply to others: Thinking that onsighting E6 and headpointing E8/9 is in any way approaching cutting edge/top level is very un informed. As Ali K mentioned, it's a pretty regular occurence for many people who have posted on this thread, let alone the rest of the climbing community

In reply to James Jackson:

Yeh, that was a bit of a nobbish comment by me. It's up to individuals what they want to try and excel at and you're right that no one discipline is more noble than another. So a boulderer exploring about trying new problems or repeating classic problems, fair enough.

What I meant was that those who are interested in trad climbing and claim that it is their sole focus, often get so distracted by training, getting strong and bouldering that they don't really enjoy themselves as much as they could or produce anything of any value.

You may ask 'what is 'of any value'' and that is generally what they hold to be important- most likely ascents of eye-catching/difficult/ unclimbed lines.

I'm pretty inarticulate, so that may not have made sense

In reply to ali k:


Wait wait wait, why use 'Top-level' climbers for a comparison to Franco? Isn't that exactly what you were arguing against above!

In reply to Dave Warburton:


no - comparisons are fine. the argument was the franco wasnt one of the 'top' climbers.

in answer to that point it depends on the definition of a top climber - yes he is the upper end of climbers and i have a lot of respect for what he is doing/has done - no he is not a top climber and its not being disrespectful to say he isnt, he may well be in time.

In reply to tradattack: No Franco said that there are strong (much stronger than him) climbers that don't actually attempt or think they can manage climbs of this nature, well it's well within their capabilities. Whether or not they want to is different.

I still don't understand the comparison of Ali's really. From my own experience i know a fair few people who boulder V7/8 (i don't think Franco is making the point about 'top level climbers' either) but wouldn't consider headpointing a route which that capability would allow, just because they don't have the desire.

End of the day, people are driven by different things and Franco plainly laid down his beliefs on this thread and his blog. I laugh when people aggressively argue *Against* Franco's (or other peoples beliefs on UKC) by attempting to weigh their own beliefs down on them. Laughable.

Up until the 'Franco - top climber?' stuff, the thread had not descended into shite, with exception to a very, very misguided comment regarding Ian Jackson.

In reply to Dave Warburton:

Don't be a nob in trying to defend your mate!

They are completely separate points. Franco arguing that "the strongest boulderers and sport climbers (i.e. Sharma, Ondra et al) never produce anything special" is not mutually exclusive of him being a fairly average climber.

But he seems to have gone back on that point now.

In reply to ali k:

I didn't go back on it, I just never meant them. When i refer to 'climbers' i mean 'trad climbers',I often make this mistake when chatting to boulderers that they think of themselves as a climber rather than a sub-sporter.

In reply to Dave Warburton: ahhhh your mates. that would explain your utter inability to follow a simple and logical argument.

In reply to Dave Warburton:



You guys crack me up! Both ignorantly arguing each other's counter-points!

In reply to ali k:

Where have you quoted that from?

In reply to ali k:

Franco arguing that "the strongest boulderers and sport climbers (i.e. Sharma, Ondra et al) never produce anything special"

He did'nt say that, you did.
If you think that is what he was trying to say then you have completely missed his point.

In reply to ali k: Not defending Franco's ability to wind people up with comments like that, i'm wondering about your use of comparison in regard to naming Ondra as a comparison to Franco in regard to 'achieving something special'.

I think you've misread 'Strong' as 'strongest'

In reply to Dave Warburton:


True, and as I said, this may inadvertently been my fault for trying to redress the balance viz. people seemingly saying Franco had no right to be trying this route. Sorry for derailing it.

In reply to Blue Straggler: just like to point out my references earlier in the thread to 'top climbers' were in no way implying that franco had no right to be on the climb. i have said quite a few times that i respect his balls even if he is a massive wind up merchant!

In reply to Franco Cookson:When i refer to 'climbers' i mean 'trad climbers',I often make this mistake when chatting to boulderers that they think of themselves as a climber rather than a sub-sporter.


That's very considerate - they must be feel honoured that a proper climber would even chat to them

In reply to Dave Warburton:

Whether he was talking about 'strong' or 'strongest' is irrelevant. And whether we're talking about Adam Ondra or Joe Bloggs, who's just slightly stronger than Franco, is irrelevant. His point was that a route wasn't special unless it's a trad route. And better still, one that involves a lot of risk.

I picked two iconic and IMO 'special' sport routes to ask if he thought these routes were still not special.

In reply to shark:

Indeed, normally they are thankful. Only the odd one with a chip on their shoulder who gets upset.

In reply to ali k:
>

No it wasn't. It was that people don't achieve things special to them due to a lack of self belief and drive.

In reply to UKC News:

Personally, i think the point franco makes about a lot of climbers underachieving due to a lack of believe in their own skills is quite fair...

I've not been climbing that long but have already come across people who don't climb as hard as they should just because they are scared of failure/injury..

the fact of the matter is climbing(in it's most true sense aka trad) is a fairly bold passtime and those who achieve true greatness are those that have the balls to take on the bold climbs.

I don't think anyone should be knocking franco for what he has tried, until they have the bottle to step onto the route for themselves.

In reply to ali k: And I like you, for being so willing to provide a bit of entertainment between lectures/climbing

In reply to Tom_Jermy:


I'd like to disagree with that. It's all about pushing the boundaries of what is physically possible (see Ben and Jerry in the 80s/90s, Sharma, Andrada, Ondra etc now) for me. Doing something (comparatively) not very hard with the added danger of serious injury/death isn't as impressive in my opinion.

I'm sure lots will disagree.

In reply to ali k:
He did'nt say that either. You just did.
Maybe you should start trying to understand what it is Franco IS saying, rather than chasing your own tail.

In reply to MattDTC: francos changed what hes saying 3 times. ali answered what he orginally said. he even said himself it was a stupid thing to say and then changed his mind about what he meant so you cant really have a go!

In reply to Eagle River: its a case of each to their own! each climber pursues what they love - for some being bold is the most impressive for some its climbing the smallest holds. all are equally impressive and its only small minded people who cant appreciate other aspects of the sport.

In reply to Eagle River:

Doing something (comparatively) not very hard.....

I am totally willing to accept that in the purely physical sense the climbs by ondra, andrada, sharma are "harder"

But, the pyschological element of the higher level trad climbs is not to be overlooked...Someone who is mildly talented can train and train and if they were to work hard enough could become strong enough to climb the high end sport grades, i would argue it takes a special type of person to be pyschologically strong enough to step on a bold route and 100% back themselves to get to the top.

In reply to tradattack:

Which is why I said I expected people to disagree.

8c+ onsight will always be more impressive than E9 onsight for me. I'm glad that makes me small minded.

In reply to Tom_Jermy: hundreds of people do it every weekend! its all degrees man - someone mildly talented can train and climb sport hard but they wont be at the top. someone mildly brave can step up and climb hard trad but they wont be dave birket.

yes its a differnt game but dont kid yourself that there arent hundreds of people out there who arent regularly doing it

In reply to Eagle River: why are you possibly glad your small minded? i dont understand why people cant just appreciate that both are great and amazing achievements but for different reasons.

In reply to tradattack:

I said one was more impressive TO ME, no-one else.

I didn't say hard trad wasn't an achievement, just less impressive TO ME.

And none of this is in relation to Franco because I've climbed with him and think he's a lovely and slightly alluring chap (mainly because he has a whiff of Adam Ondra about him).

In reply to Franco Cookson:Indeed, normally they are thankful. Only the odd one with a chip on their shoulder who gets upset.

In reply to Eagle River: alright dude. calm down, didnt mean to uspet your delicate demenour, you posted an opinion and i posted mine. thats how this works

In reply to tradattack:

I am perfectly calm. You seemed to miss my point so I helped your understanding of it USING CAPITAL LETTERS.

In reply to Eagle River: but of course sir, so long as the young masters point is heard, no one elses really matters.

In reply to tradattack:

Ha!

In reply to GDes:

What Ged said!

In reply to UKC News:

What utter Ukc shite going on here. Shameful!

Franco has done what Franco wanted to do for whatever reasons Franco wanted to do that, and he has faced the consequences.

I appeal to all of you who are reading this thread to put aside whatever predjudice, judgementalist opinion you have allowed to form in your mind and pay some respect to the FACT that here is a young guy who FOR WHATEVER REASONS has risked his life on a rock climb, in pursuit of that which drives and inspires HIM!

I say this having failed to commit to 5c moves with the risk falling 2ft onto a bolt at Horseshoe Quarry today!
So you can see where my passion comes from...

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Its because some people dont realise that they are now the established farts and that Franco is up and coming. Lot of petty jealousy about.

I like him and his attitude and I cant even say that about myself!

In reply to UKC News:

Jesus, is this thread still going? Some people on here really need to get a life...

In reply to Fawksey:

I like him too and his balsy climbing, he does his own thing and has had several falls he has got away with without serious injury. I hope he does draw his horns in just a tad so he can go on doing stuff near HIS limit but not going over it.

Franco, a lot of people I know have fallen less distance and either not survived or been seriously injured, take care.

In reply to sutty:

Thanks, and thanks to everyone who has given me advice out of genuine concern for my own safety and well wishes.

I know better than most that there is nothing glorious about death, just a void and a distraught family. I will be safer in the future.

In reply to Removed User: Nonsense. Read it and understand: 'non-sense' i.e. there is no sense:

- Franco shrugs off the broken hand incident as if it was nothing, it could have been very serious indeed; and

- You come out with that cliched rubbish.

Some perspective and intelligence please.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Top 100 based on what exactly? Genuinely, I'm intrigued on how you arrive at that.

In reply to Kelcat: No he didn't (know the risks - see post above re testing pegs).

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
>

I completely agree. I'm surprised by the atmosphere of self-righteousness and hypocritical disapproval on here, and God knows after the time I've been regular on UKC I shouldn't be.

In reply to Franco Cookson: You also say you hope it would come together on the lead. Is that good enough, all things considered? Sorry Franco, it sounds like I'm having a real go at you, I'm not I just think how we go about arriving at decisions is an important discussion.

In reply to ksjs: There are plenty of historical precedents (see guidebook histories) where "famous" people have fluffed it on practice/top-rope and then led it immediately afterwards.

In reply to ksjs:

How about, he had a go on a rope, thought he could do it on the lead and gave it a go. How is that different from how you climb, except that perhaps you might not have bothered with the toproping?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Disgaree: they had huge pedigree / form / track record over a long time.

In reply to Franco Cookson: This is really condescending, won't bother explaining why if you can't see for yourself.

In reply to ksjs: mate drop it - hes never gonna see your point of view and im really bored of seeing this thread at the top of UKC

In reply to ksjs:


No it couldn't. I mean come on... 20 metre groundfall- dangerous and stupid to have got on it. But the broken hand thing was just rolling down a hill, the only reason I broke my hand on it was because I've spent too long with soft boulderers, tensed up and didn't roll properly.

Bring back the age of proper boldness, where people would pad out dangerous routes with their todger.

In reply to Dave Garnett: How about:

I have bouldered A
I have onsighted B on bolts
I have redpointed C on bolts
I have onsighted D on trad
I have headpointed E on trad

I have done each of the above F number of times across so many different rock types and styles. I therefore know that I am equipped to tackle a particular objective.

I don't see any of this (which I understood was part and parcel of good headpointing).

In reply to Franco Cookson: You are the man Franco! Maybe one day I'll grow up and be as old skool, hardcore, ballsy, authentic, real, cool, strong, good and capable as you.

In reply to ksjs:

That is exactly the reason headpointing is stuck where it is, but I don't care.

Even I'm bored of seeing my own name at the top of the forum and I'm a narcissist.

In reply to ksjs: Ha.. What is wrong with you?

In reply to ksjs:


Good headpointing? Is there a Standard Operating Procedure?

Even you might make a mistake though, presumably? What then, do we all suck through our teeth and revoke your Safe but Unimaginative Leading Certificate?

In reply to Franco Cookson: So are you saying there needs to be some sort of remove brain, tell everyone you love them and go for it approach to move headpointing on?

Are you also saying that my suggestion that form across disciplines is irrelevant?

In reply to Dave Garnett: I don't headpoint. I work hard on my sport and bouldering and, for now, seek to onsight dull E5s and lesser fayre whenever possible.

I can't imagine head-pointing at your limit ever feels totally straightforward and I can see that there are definitely times when you may choose a higher level of risk. What I am simply trying to get at is that there is a way to up your armoury and load the dice in your favour. Why not take it?

In reply to GDes:

Well said...

In reply to ksjs:

Sounds pretty different from the 'headpointing' Dawes, Grieves and that lot got up to, but then they didn't do much for climbing around here did they?

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Brilliant.

In reply to UKC News: To those sanctimoniously criticising Franco, it's worth bearing in mind one thing that's kept most of us intact through our climbing careers - luck.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

and I bet half these people would have been congratulating him on his achievement if he'd not fallen off.

Is this not truely a case of natural selection in action, i wish you all the best Franco in your battle against mother nature.

In reply to UKC News:
Reading this thread, it seems to me that the people replying fall into two general categories:-

1) Shall we say 'weekend' climbers, with limited hard climbing experience and certainly no experience of hard headpointing, who are hailing Franco's traditional heroic British 'what the hell' attitude as something to be championed. The same attitude that got him into the situation he's in now (i.e. lucky to be alive, let alone not paralysed or more seriously injured).

2) More experienced climbers, with at least some experience of hard headpointing or hard climbing in general, who are questioning the decisions and, in particular, the preparation he made leading up to the attempt (eg. Did he drop test the pegs, especially when the top one flexed? Why not use twin ropes? Was he confident enough on the crux? How many E7s/E8s had he done before this route? etc etc).

I particularly liked Chris Craggs' comment about climbing being a learning game and Franco a slow learner!

Anyway, I know which group I'd listen to in future, but it sounds like Franco is already having that conversation with himself anyway. So not much point continuing to have a go at him.

In reply to Toreador:

That's the point I was trying to make - maybe too subtly - by comparing this to Calum Muskett's recent achievement.

In reply to Pete_Robinson:
You make good points (I like to think I don't actually fall into Category 1 though). At risk of sounding like a broken record, it's interesting that nobody seems to asking the questions that you mention (well, OK, the last two ones of the four), w.r.t. Calum Muskett's E9 ascent.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Good point, but I guess no-one ever asks after a successful ascent do they! Not sure what he's done recently, but he did onsight three E6s when he was 14 so he can't be too bad!

In reply to Pete_Robinson:



I would listen to this group of climbers if I actually believed they had my best interests at heart. The 'you're too shit to be on that route' type of comment really doesn't inspire me to listen to their input and when based on so little fact just seems like abuse fueled by ulterior motives.

Also, these aren't great climbers with a load of experience, they're good climbers who haven't quite made it. That is arrogant, but the truth.

In reply to Franco Cookson: you do know how to endear yourself to other people eh franco. what is making it out of interest?

one of my favourite qoutes is from a south african climber, andy de klerk 'the best climber on the mountain is the one having the most fun' - sometimes we would all do well to cut out all the bullshit

In reply to tradattack: Yeah but he's not actually the best climber on the mountain is he. That's just a shitty pseudo-aphorism for people too thick to actually think for a second.

In reply to Lemony: im gonna go ahead and assume your shit stirring as opposed to just being a complete bell end

In reply to tradattack:

Yes, but we all know that's bollox. I always have huge amounts of fun when climbing, but I'm never the the best climber on the mountain. Even when I'm the only one there.

In reply to Toreador: its clearly not meant to be literal.... its supposed to remind people that ultimately the reason we climb is for enjoyment. sorry if this is beyond your mental capacity to understand.

In reply to tradattack:

some of the stick franco was getting here was because he looked too much like he was enjoying himself

In reply to Lemony:



That depends upon your entirely subjective definition of 'best'.


No, it's a good quote (though I don't think it was the climber mentioned who first came up with it - I've heard it in relation to both paragliding and kayaking). For many of us the whole point of climbing is enjoyment, not a demonstration of skill (/showing off).

EDIT: beaten to it.

In reply to tradattack:


One thing's for sure, the best climber isn't the one falling off.

In reply to hakey: ahh possibly not, its in his book but now i think about it he may of been qouting.

well i like the qoute even if no one else does. makes me one of the best climbers out there.

In reply to tradattack:

Alex Lowe, I think, not Andy.

In reply to tradattack:

No, 'enjoyment' is an incredibly lame and inadequate description for it. If you're getting the most out of it, there's usually a whole load of other emotions going on at once, as well as simple 'enjoyment' - particularly a mixture of thrill and fear, and quite often pain or suffering of one kind or another (e.g. painful jams, pumped muscles, screaming toes in painful climbing shoes, and on a mountain, general exhaustion, cold, hunger, thirst, etc. etc.)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: riiiggghhht. but ultimately we do all that because we enjoy it. it is or at least should be for anyone without serious mental issues the reason why we climb.....we arent forced to do it we do of our own accord.

all the other things you mention are part and parcel of it but ive never met anyone who climbed cos they liked pain or pumped muscles or exaustion or hunger or cold. they are part of an experience which they ultimately enjoy....

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Well said Gordon. I can't say I ever really 'enjoy' climbing anything taxing until I'm the top is in sight. Those occasional days when I drop the grade a good few notches, I surprise myself at how enjoyable climbing can be, but those days aren't the reason I go climbing in the first place.

In reply to tradattack:
FWIW, based on his posts in this thread, Franco has gone up in my estimation enormously.

Shine a light.

This thread is tedious and makes me embarassed to call myself a rock climber. It does deepen my view that rock climbers are geeks and pedants arguing over crap details.

Makes alpinism look like a pure art, a sport for men, untarnished by such trite rubbish, with the only acceptable principle being dont f*ck up the mountain.

In reply to tradattack:


+1

In reply to deepsoup:
FWIW, based on his posts in this thread, Franco has gone up in my estimation enormously.

I quite agree, I think it shows real commitment that Franco was prepared to take a 20m groundfall just to wind up people on UKC. I mean the best most people manage is a random troll about god or pegging, but Franco put his neck on the line for a fairly impressive thread on headpointing.

Franco 9/10 - Top Trolling, you'd have a perfect score if you hadn't posted on the thread again

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

or

3) Climbers whose ability, experience and 'ranking' is irrellevant, saying 'good on you for giving it a go Franco & hope you recover well' - because what Franco Cookson does (or says) doesn't impact on their ego!



Is there really anybody in the entire known climbing world that doesn't think that a 20m groundfall on failed pegs via bouncing off ledges is likely to be a more effective 'modifier' on Franco's attitude than anything they themselves might be bleeting aimlessly on about on a stupid f*cking forum??

In reply to Franco Cookson: I can't believe the stuff you type sometimes! And you have made it? I don't think anyone said you're not capable just that maybe you're not capable enough right now to do what you were seeking to do. That is entirely reasonable and perhaps something you should take on board; play the long game.

Also, I do actually care and have no ulterior motives.

In reply to ksjs:

I'm confused....

What are you accusing Franco of...

a. Being naive
or
b. Being stupid

In reply to Cragrat Rich: I'm not accusing Franco of anything. I was suggesting that Franco had made a questionable and unnecessary decision given that there are better ways to go about what he seems to aspire to.

I was hoping to have some sort of dialogue which threw light on the decision making process; I find that sort of thing really interesting and reckon it can benefit us all. For me that would include I have done A,B and C and can therefore, without almost any doubt, do D. Franco does not seem to subscribe to that which is fine but I would argue he's flying blind.

Unfortunately that discussion hasn't happened and it's just descended into the usual playground stuff.

In all of this I recognise I make mistakes, have made questionable decisions and am no better than the next man.

In reply to ksjs:

obviously he is or he couldn't have got up it on a top rope. If he'd found the 75% rather than the 25% then I'm sure you'd be joining in the applause.

In reply to Toreador: No, I wouldn't, I'd be thinking 'lucky' and that time and the odds will catch up with him.

In reply to ksjs:
No, I wouldn't, I'd be thinking 'lucky' and that time and the odds will catch up with him.

What basis would you have for assuming that abilities that got him up the climb are luck?

None of the debate over the pegs, the ropes, his state of readiness would have been discusssed!

Just going to throw "envy" out there as a possibility for you presuming a hard ascent and one you won't consider is luck!?

In reply to ksjs:
there are better ways to go about what he seems to aspire to.


Strange comment- It's down to personal preference what the 'best way' to climb is. And what do I aspire to do?

Anyway, you asked for my line of thinking, which I agree will be benificial for all. Here is my thought process:

1) There's a route with really good climbing on it, inspiringly blank, but not the best line- a mere direct finish to an E4.

2)Would be cool to be the first person to climb it.

3) (after I have a look at a guidebook) O, it's been climbed at E6 7a with siderunners- I hadn't even thought of the idea of side runners.

4) I'd still like to climb it with only runners on route

5) The route is 22 metres tall, the crux at 19 metres and some pegs at 11 metres. The pegs are bomber collectively (new pegs and sound) although the fall is onto some bad ledges.

6) I can't do the crux securely

7) I come back after winter with loads more finger strength and technique. The crux is still mega balancy and the foot ridiculously high (coincidentally I don't think there are many people who could get their leg up there. I can get my leg behind my head and it's a stretch for me). Due to all this I start to think if carrying on shunting it is worth it.

8) getting to Tintwistle with someone with a camera is difficult, it all comes together one afternoon and I am dangling on the crux from an ascender. Do I go for it?

*It's wet, but it always is.
*I only have a single rope, but the pegs ripping isn't my primary concern- it's the ledges and the corner you'd swing into if the pegs held.
*I know I can do all the moves, I don't think I'll come off


Ideally I'd have had another session, just so the moves were second nature, but there's a harder unclimbed line at the same quarry that i was keen to start work on and I was confident in my own ability.

In reply to ksjs:

All you have to do is post "fair play for giving it a go Franco" and all this business of exposing yourself as a jealousy fuelled, threatened rock star can end!

Then you can get on with your lovely little sensible climbing pastime

In reply to ksjs:

Then with respect, you're hardly qualified to give Franco (with a reasonable amount of headpointing experience) advice on his headpointing?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

^this i love.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Mate, you really don't need to justify yourself to this eejit. Just get out again as soon as you can, get stronger and work that psychology more too - but ultimately take what you need to from this experience and stay safe. Still well impressed with that high foot and that active flexibility!! Reminds me of tenuous rock overs on routes like Heading the Shot on the slate.

In reply to ksjs:


Indeed, in other disciplines as well as headpointing. I was encouraging Franco to buy into their assured risk-management and near-elimination of risk, not suggesting that he was at their level.

In reply to ksjs:


Supposition, plucked out of the air and not remotely autoritative. But the (attempted) point was that Franco is at the more able end of the spectrum and has earned the right to make an E9 decision, even if it turned out to be the wrong one...

In reply to Reach>Talent:

Class!

In reply to jon:

The truth is that they both died because they were over-complacent that day. Paul was a good friend of mine in the two or three years I knew him (but of course not close friends - I only met him a handful of times and we got on very well, and he helped me enormously on two of my books.) I gather that he had soloed BE at least twice that day, and that it had become a bit of a party piece, so, inevitably, he was a bit less wary of the rock than he would otherwise have been.

JImmy J. Surely it was here that I heard the story c. two months ago that he'd just soloed The Cad or something outrageous on Gogarth (might have got the route wrong) and then met Joe in Llanberis high street and told him about it. And Joe just put his arm round him and said, 'I think you should stop there' (or words to that effect).

In reply to Owen W-G:

And let me in turn say, Well said Owen, for filling out what I was saying, and adding to it.

In reply to deepsoup:

Ditto. He seems right in the best traditions of UK climbing to me, and self-critical with it.

In reply to deepsoup:

I was thinking that too, until he comes out with comments like this:

"these aren't great climbers with a load of experience, they're good climbers who haven't quite made it"

It makes you wonder whether the people accusing Franco of climbing to impress others and to 'make it' himself are on to something. And what he actually means by 'making it' in terms of climbing I will never know - it's not the X Factor!

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

Give him a chance. He's young, and so has quite a big and overly-opinionated head. He has the whole cruel story of life ahead of him!

In reply to Pete_Robinson: Considering the shite that has been spouted on this thread, i'm not suprised he's retaliated!

In reply to Pete_Robinson: I think he speaks his mind without beng devious. Loke a Boycott, Harvey Smith or a Gough. Its no suprise that Cleveland was part of Yorkshire.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Fair enough but the stuff I wouldn't be able to avoid thinking in all this is: how many successful headpoints have I made at the level just below this, how often do I feel utterly solid on boulder problems of the same difficulty or harder, how much sport have I redpointed at the same or harder level (this probably doesn't lend itself to a sport grade but I'm guessing somewhere around the 7c-8a mark?) ?

Surely clear answers to that lot would give you a better measure of where you're at in terms of attempting this rather than just thinking you have a bit of extra finger strength / technique and going for it because somebody was there with a camera?

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Why would I be jealous? I'm no rock star nor do I have pretensions to be.

In reply to Michael Gordon: I don't think that's true at all. You can observe how the best go about something, use your own experience and then extrapolate. I accept it ain't science though.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Misunderstood, sorry. I have been trying (with zero success) to do this also Head and brick wall...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

There's a lot of other good young climbers who seem to go about their buisness without such fuss and bluster.

Franco uses the forums for self publicity so should expect to be questioned by other good climbers, without them being jumped on by his groupies.

The 'haven't quite made it' comment was illuminating.