UKC

As we roam the Highlands, it's worth being mindful of the linguistic heritage beneath our boots, says Norman Hadley. You can be forgiven for not immediately getting your tongue around Beinn a' Chlaidheimh or Sgùrr Cos na Breachd-laoidh. But you should certainly try.

Read more

The Scots do have a way with place names. Just recently I camped on Buttock Point, the northernmost bit of Bute. Then there's the Cock of Arran. As for Tw@tt, well best not go there ...

Don't forget the Butt of Lewis. All people named Lewis should make a pilgrimage. 

See (well, hear) also...

https://soundcloud.com/norman-hadley/hymn-to-the-gaelic?utm_source=clipboar...

Well as someone who grew up in Ayrshire I have always found the obsession and creeping credence given to Gaelic annoying. My home town now has a ludicrous Gaelic name with no relation to the name it’s had since the dark ages. It was never my language nor the language of my ancestors. Etymologically interesting yes, but many of the names are not that old (Sgurr nan Spainteach certainly not much over 300 years). It’s not a phonetic language so well done if you can pronounce it but it means you will not be able to communicate it because no one else knows what you are saying (well 2-3% of the population). 
To cut to the chase, Gaelic is too bound up in Nationalism. Be interested in the language but if you want to call it The Bookil or Cheesecake then fine by me.

Are you talking about English here?

I've been learning Gaelic for the past 6 months, and from what I've learning so far pronounciation is pretty consistent, even if it is taking a while for me to tune my ear to it (and longer to tune my tongue).

Does Ayrshire come under 'Galloway'? I mean the large portion of south west Scotland not the 'Dumfries and Galloway' region. Since I lived in Cumbria decades ago I've always been fascinated by the place names in the Galloway hills like Rigg of the Jarkness, Nick of the Curleywee and Flob of the Wibblywobbs (OK, I made that last one up!). I believe Galloway in times past was considered a land apart from the rest of Scotland. The locals must have had a lot of inputs from Norse, Irish and old British languages as well as English.

Strathclyde would be the most appropriate historical categorisation and more in common with Welsh and English than Gaelic. 
 

I do like tracing history though language. My paternal grandmother was a Scots speaker and I took great delight in reading Scots. Even greater delight was had when on a trip to Norway I realised so many Scots words were Norwegian. I know a few derived from Welsh (Latin) and most as a variation of English. I can’t think of one from Gaelic though (I’m sure there must be a few). 
 

If the origin of a language and culture is important, why are we imposing Gaelic on the whole country?

If there is Irish influence, which language would they have spoken?

Hard to say really? Looking at some hill names in Galloway you can imagine some kind of corruption of an original Scottish or Irish Gaelic name. Or it could have been Norse Irish - they were in Dublin and the Isle of Man not so far away. As Dizzy says there aren't many (if any) obviously Gaelic names evident south of the central belt and I believe the inhabitants of Strathclyde spoke a version of Old Welsh like the Cumbrians.

Totally agree. I’m an Ayrshire man myself (originally Cumnock) and the historical local language was lowland Scots not Gaelic. 

Politicians - who'd 'ave 'em?

It is interesting to see the perspective of people of with less of a Gaelic heritage, it always surprises me quite how much hostility (and denial from my possibly ignorant perspective) there is toward Gaelic in some areas of Scotland. I can see that its linguistic history is much more complex and mixed than Ireland, Wales or England, and that Gaelic has been absent for a while in some places, but it was present through most of Scotland at some point around the 12th century, and despite being a weaker influence in some places is very much a part of the history of most of the country.

What I was getting at with the Irish influence is that the difference between Irish influence and Gaelic influence, is either quite subtle or non existent, seeing as Gaelic generally in Scotland is just a more long term Irish influence anyway, and both languages are just different forms of Gaelic. Even talking of Norse influence to the exclusion of a Gaelic influence seems a little disingenuous considering how intertwined Irish, Norse and Gaelic cultures became around the Irish Sea and the Western Isles for a while in the guise of the Norse Gaels.

Never really quite got my head round the intricacies, but do find it quite interesting how the different influences have ebbed and flowed over time.

Galloway was a Gaelic-speaking area for about 500 years, hence the name. It's an interesting story - 

https://gaidhligdumgal.org/gaelic-in-galloway-carrick/

There's this too, which was how I found out about SW Scottish Gaelic. Well worth watching for those interested:

https://psyche.co/films/scottish-gaelic-songs-send-a-message-in-a-bottle-ac...

Just had a quick google and found this, discussing Gaelic in Ayrshire:

http://lowlandgaelic.blogspot.com/2017/11/gaelic-in-ayrshire-part-1.html#:~...)%3B%20it%20is,much%20later%20than%20that%20%5BW.J.

Yes- the complexities are very clear in that first account I posted

Your links are about as tenuous as historiography gets. The language of the Royal Courts in England was French from 1066 to 1362 but it was not the language of the people. That the aristocracy were from Gaelic origin speakers says nothing about what the people spoke. A common mistake.

You seem to be missing the point of my post, which was not at all an argument against your point about Lowland Scots being dominant in recent times. And I entirely understand your point about the imposition of Gaelic place-names in areas of Scotland where it has no relevance. As for your point about French being the language of the court in England, in similar fashion Middle English (from which Early Scots developed) was first of all a prestige language in much of Scotland, gradually displacing Gaelic. 

As you didn't think much of the other links I posted, perhaps you might like to read this, which shows something of the complexity of language in the area historically:

http://cscs.academicblogs.co.uk/language-and-land-in-12th-and-13th-century-...

And so signs should also be put up in Cumbric (Gaelic) in Cumbria, North Yorkshire and Lancashire as these spoke the same language as Strathclyde at the same time. Though I suppose they should also be put up in Latin to reflect the time of the Roman occupation

Resurrecting names in Cymraeg round there might be a step too far for them, did you not hear how much of a fuss there was about using them in Wales recently?

Point of order: no Gaelic in the north of England, please! I think Cumbric was linguistically very similar to Old Welsh rather than Gaelic. There must have been a hell of a lot of languages and dialects knocking around a fairly restricted area at times. It would have been boom time for the interpreting industry. What about Orkney and Shetland - I know they were under Norse control until the mediaeval period. Did Gaelic get any kind of purchase there? The place names seem very Scandinavian.

The one name that appears to have multiple ways of being pronounced in Gaelic is Coire an t'Sneachda  but whenever I resort to one of these pronunciations  everyone is utterly confused so I eventually resort back to the anglicised 'Sneachda'. Such is progress. Much the same I imagine with the Brecon Beacons & Snowdon.

Climbers tend to be a bit blinkered when we visit places, but any visit is enhanced by some awareness of the local heritage and culture.  I agree entirely with the premise of the article, that we should be more aware of the influence and meaning of Gaelic place names and attempt tot pronounce them correctly.

The obstacle for an English speaker is the spelling.  Welsh gives us enough problems, although only a few of its letters have different sound values, and once those are understood an English speaker can have a reasonable stab at pronouncing it.  Gaelic spelling is so far removed from English that it might as well be Greek.  It requires more than a casual study of the language to understand how letters and groups of letters should be pronounced. The spelling really only makes sense if you speak the language and understand the nuances which the letters are trying to convey. For those of us who visit the Gaeltacht only occasionally I'm sorry to say that the effort outweighs the rewards.

Very timely.  A week ago I'd never encountered a bealach, now I even know how to pronounce it!

Getting to Balloch can be a b0llock when the traffic's bad round Glasgow

I've always been fascinated by the Hadrian's Wall area and Latin was the language used by the troops in the forts even if it wasn't their native tongue. The Vindolanda tablets are amazing - troops from modern day Europe using Latin officially in their day job, German or Frankish to talk to their mates and probably Cumbric to buy a chicken off a local farmer. There's a gravestone from a fort in South Shields for a lady who was originally from Dorset I think. It was set up by her husband who was a merchant from Palmyra in Syria. It just shows how diversity in language and culture has deep roots in this island.

Aye, right.

I know some native Gaelic speakers,  they are very wary and reticent of pronouncing places names from outwith their area.  Which makes sense as there is a huge variation in how English place names  are pronounced. 

On another front it’s obvious that some have tried to politicise the language which I don’t think is very helpful.

Really? You hadn't for instance been over the Bealach na Bà before? 

I always felt on those early British Everest expeditions that after they nicknamed the Western Cwm the Western Cwm (presuming the Sherpa people don't use Welsh words!) they should have called the South Col the South Bealach to be fair!

A mixture of French, Welsh & English. But travel to the other side of Everest and native names predominate. eg. Kangshung Face, Lhakpa Ri etc.

You must have been over a 'bwlch' in Wales? If you've climbed Yr Wyddfa then you most certainly have.

Pen y Bealach?

As a Scot with Scottish,Cumbrian,Manx,Irish, Romany,Pict and Norman ancestry (cousin has done mega ancestry and dna work) I’m unsure what ancestral language to speak.I’m sure I’m not alone .. partic in having Robert the Bruce as an ancestor 😀

Nope, I had to look that up.  You'd be surprised how little I've done in Scotland.  I always figured I had more chance of climbing in the dry in the SW... or France.

It does raise the question of what bealach actually means though.  What I've encountered recently on the Cuillin ridge I would have called a gap or notch (or breche), definitely not a 'pass', col or saddle.  In fact, our description actually called one of them a 'window', which was really confusing. 

I've climbed on the the 'overhanging crag of the pig' at Tremadog, if that helps.

Having a fair bit of the Gael in me its interesting to see the comments about language. Gaelic is about a lot more than that, often times not translatable into English as it has deeper meaning and thought behind it.  Sorley MacLean for example tried to capture it in verse.  Dùthchas (Dualchas) is a word that encompasses some of that. I would no more expect any person from out with that culture be it from abroad or the British colonies of GB to get that than I would myself stepping into Tibetan culture and language. Its not for nothing that in Gaelic you don't ask where are you from, you oftentimes times ask where do you belong. Connection to land, language, spiritual thinking and cultural heritage is still strong and many are tapping into its value as a life, and reviving the language. The alien tongue is English which is essentially bastardised old Scots with French German and anglo Indian added to the mix, spoken posh as RP and given an importance it doesn't deserve.  Dissing the language of the Gael is pissing on culture not language.

Which of the preceding posts do you consider is "dissing the language of the Gael"?

I was pretty much in agreement with you until I read the above which seems to suggest you harbour a grudge? It's obviously incorrect as well. And who's 'dissing' Gaelic?

Sidestepping the linguistic politics for a second, I picked up Reading the Gaelic Landscape by John Murray a few years back, and would strongly recommend it to anyone who's into that sort of thing.

One of the points that it opens with is (to paraphrase heavily) that to a Gaelic speaker a map of the highlands isn't just a map, it's almost a guidebook as the names give you clues as to the character and history of the landscape features. It then carries on to cover things like the range of words for "hill" and what exactly they're normally applied to, words relating to colours, animals, vegetation, human activity and even a section on predicting the nature of the fishing in a loch based on its name.

https://www.whittlespublishing.com/Reading_the_Gaelic_Landscape_2nd_edition

But you could at least try to explain what you think it means.  This kind of mystical obfuscation is often used for words like hiraeth in Welsh but just because there isn't an exact linguistically equivalent word in English doesn't mean it can't be translated.  Everyone knows what schadenfreude means, for instance.  

Actually, English is pretty rich in nuance and short on precise synonyms - very few two words carry exactly the same shade of meaning.

He didn't attempt a translation, but most of the rest of the post seems to be explaining different aspects of what it encapsulates.

I have little to no Gàidhlig myself, and haven't come across the term before, but based on Davy's post I'd hazard a very rough stab along the lines of 'heritage of belonging'.

Cool article. It’s good to put languages back into the landscape for context. One can have just enough pronunciation to show some respect to local history and culture.

Stubbornly mispronouncing places is as nationalistic (hegemony of British Empire) as enforcing a language resurrection gone several hundred years. Both attitudes are, I think, clearly wrong.

All languages are intrinsically interesting: their development to their present form is influenced by so many factors, sometimes by flukes, often by power. If it wasn’t for the influence of the court we would live in “houses” riming with “mooses”… which I remember my uni philology classes happened some times in 16th C. 
 

Language is fully part of identity but can be appreciated without all the politics attached. They have historically been used to reinforce Nation states (French for France or English in the Empire) at the detriment of local cultures. We should all be wary of them being too politicised again. I love English, I have no love for the old Empire and its, imho, most annoying hungover that is the Monarchy. I love Gàidhlig, I have little time for the way the SNP are trying to capitalise on it. I do want it to be protected and fostered. Once we lose a language, we lose a bit of our humanity, it being rollercoasted into an increasing homogeneous culture which is easier to manipulate.
 

gu Daibhidh: cò leis a tha sibh, a charaid?

"Point of order: no Gaelic in the north of England, please!"

Better tell the OS.   Some place names have leaked over the border, suspect OS interviewing shepherds of a Galloway origin?

Tha mi gu math, tapadh leibh. Ciamar a tha sibh fein?

Yes, epicaricacy to you and me!

When at Grammar school all my exercise books were annotated with the Gaelic version of my name...Séan O'Ceallaigh, but it was pronounced the same. Nobody, even teachers ever queried or commented about this.

Robert the Bruce, or his father Robert de Brus?  

By the same logic does that mean that a French person visiting the UK might never have encountered a dog before?

Thinking about this, people often get pulled up for calling an inland expanse of water in Scotland a lake, but not for calling a gap between two Scottish mountains a col (or indeed for calling a Scottish mountain a mountain). Why?

The purpose of language is to communicate, road signs are required to communicate effectively and quickly. Spending vast amounts of money (which is a scarce resource) on signs which do neither does not seem to me to be a wise use of these scarce resources. I have no doubt that Gaelic, Erse, Welsh, Manx, Cumbric, Latin are of immense cultural value but in my simple mind the money for that cultural education is better spent in the classroom, documentaries, literature or podcasts... not on road signs or warning signs that no one understands.

It's nice to see the road signs with the gaelic alongside the anglicised version*, but it does seem a bit daft when this spreads to the lowlands. And having every police car and ambulance in the country labelled so in gaelic really is a nonsense.

I think there will have to come a point when the language is allowed to die in dignity as a native spoken language, but there is no reason why the culture should not live on and be celebrated. After all classical Greek culture and language is still doing ok.

* My favourite is Cundainn/Contin. Is it actually pronounced "C*untin"? Always amuses me on the way to the NW anyway.

I suspect a much higher proportion of French people are familiar with the English word ‘dog’ than English people are with the Gaelic word ´bealach’!

How would you translate it, BTW?  Is it big enough to build a motorway over, or is it notch in a sharp ridge?

It doesn't matter. They are the same thing no matter what language you happen to use.

Col.

Col is French Robert! You stole it from French like about 1/3 of the rest of the English language. 😉

Bealach isn’t the only Gàidhlig word and there are nuances. Check Cadh’ an amadain on Beinn Dearg! Plenty in far NW and Skye. Steep but potentially a way out: I agree the map features would tell you but the fact that people roaming that place for hundreds of years confirms it seeing as though they bothered naming it.

BTW, I agree that giving Gàidhlig names on road signs anywhere outside Highlands/Grampians/Argyll is potentially misplaced. But it totally makes sense in those regions mentioned above. Resources may be scarce but the signs are already up and I personally like them.

I think you mean that it was imposed upon English people by a murdering bunch from France, no? Hard to see this as theft, indeed to suggest it is would look rather bad in other contexts.
you make frequent reference to Empire in a British context but are curiously silent on the French one.

I agree, but I do worry it’s a bit of a political ploy. 

Fair enough: though Normans went to France pillaged it and took French.

French empire track record is poor and I am disgusted with North Africa treatment.

*but learned French is perhaps a better turn of phrase.

indeed - and ‘the English’ still seemed to cop the blame for the actions of the Normans, what a brutal crew.

An interesting contrast of imperial styles. Both pretty shitty.

Good point. Though you lot stole most of your words from the Romans.

You don’t say! I am not for some weird “atonement” but I know imperialism when I see it and I despise it. 

France has been put back in its rightful place of second fiddle and, while fully imperfect as a nation, has understood that learning the languages of your neighbourhood and trade partners is a good thing.

Not so good about the regional languages within France though! That was almost getting better but then Macron is here to revive the République’s flame: he has a seriously imperialistic streak to him. For the record I voted for him twice… by default more than by conviction!

Anyways, I like regional languages, they are the receptacles of local wisdom and without them our nation states are poorer and monocultural. That’s my opinion, and will defend that stance though I am fully aware that my narrative has holes in it… but despite all appearances I am not perfect.😏

I did ask in the other thread but it probably got lost in the discussion - in France is there any possibilities for French kids of 'colonial heritage' to study or gain qualifications in the languages of their families? Presumably Algerian Arabic, the Berber languages, and West African languages from Senegal and other parts of Francophone* West Africa are widely spoken amongst many French school students?

I know few schools teach Urdu, Punjabi, Bengali, Hindi, Mandarin, Cantonese and so on in the UK, but I believe there are GCSEs in those languages that students can take. I wondered if there was something similar in France.

(*I read that even in Senegal where the official language is French, only a minority of the population speak it. I imagine it is not so different in other countries with French as the official language - as used to be the case in India when English was the official language!)

Surely Pictish symbols would be more authentic for road signs in the more northern and eastern parts? Drivers would get used to it eventually. As for 'col' I can't recall seeing it in use on any map to describe a gap in the hills. Round here it's a hause,  dore/door or pass.

Lingmell Col is in common use, though, and is named as such on the OS 1:25k map.

https://www.wmrt.org.uk/incidents/locations/lingmell-col/

Yes, just as you will see bealach rather than col on maps in the highlands. But col is the standard English (borrowed/acquired from French) geographical term, just like lake, valley and mountain. As far as I am aware nobody would criticise the use of these English term anywhere in the UK, though the local language words will also be acceptable. Except for "lake" in Scotland for some reason!

You're right! I've stood there several times and never noticed. I'd be surprised if there are any more (cue an avalanche of examples!). My guess is that this is an example of a name applied by nineteenth century mountaineers to an otherwise unnamed feature? Old Norse pretty much dominates round that area.

Can't think of any more offhand - there might be one or two, but not loads.

Or simply Gap - as in Scarth, Ore, Windy, Wind etc.

Even though there are at least 14 of them.

Broad Crag col is in reasonably common use - eg Wasdale MRT again:

https://www.wmrt.org.uk/incidents/locations/broad-crag-col/

and my Dalton pal with almost 15,000 Wainwrights routinely calls it that. But it doesn't seem to be named as such on the map.

Looking in Wainwright Southern Fells he uses 'Broad Crag col' and 'Lingmell col'. Note the use of the lower case c. I don't have a map of the era that he would have used but it may suggest that they weren't proper names back in the fifties. He wasn't averse to pulling up the OS if thought they were wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if OS adopted his 'invention' and incorporated it.

If I said valley instead of glen it would immediately be pointed out and ridiculed.

I don't think so. People often talk about "camping in the valley" but almost never "camping by the lake" in Scotland in my ecperience. Unless in a proper name; it would be quite wrong to talk about the Etive Valley rather than Glen Etive. And even if you thing "valley" would be ridiculed, why not "mountain" rather than "Ben"?

Northern England is averse to the word Lake as well - meres, waters and yes, loughs.

Even the word "Lakes" makes you think of hills.

But you wouldn't get pulled up for calling them lakes would you?

but pronounced 'luff'

Pointing at the hills across Morecambe Bay I told my ex's Mum you can see the Lakes over there. She (a native of That London) replied 'I can't see any lakes'

I've almost always called it The Lake District. I thing of the The Lakes as a new trend.

Even the name "Lake District" makes you think of hills.

Not sure it is. I've just asked my better half, a Coniston girl born in (ahem) the 1950s. She says it's hard now to be sure but "you used to hear both". She also says that what you don't now hear very often is "Lakeland" to describe the area (eg in the title of several Harry Griffin books). This is possibly because of the spread of the shop brand - which itself used to be Lakeland Plastics.

The Lakes School opened in 1965 and I think was always called that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lakes_School

although whether the name relates to the whole district or just Windermere and some other watery bits in that central area isn't clear.

The selfsame better half will address stern words to the TV should someone (as happens quite often) speak of "Lake Windermere".

Which brings things nicely back to the topic again.

How would 'lough' have been pronounced in middle English? Voiceless velar fricative anybody?

What is the origin of this word 'lough'?

Sorry for the late reply

My guess is probably no, but the truth is that I don’t know for sure. Seeing how poorly we dealt with the end of colonialism, and how (in my opinion) the resentment that this end added to already well established racism, I would pretty much assume it is not a possibility. “Ethnic minority” isn’t a concept for “la République une et indivisible”! 

When I was last mountaineering in the North African region 15 years ago, which we commonly call “le Maghreb” (and it has its own negative connotations unfortunately ), I found that wherever I went, I could easily find a person over 40/50 with impeccable French. People below 30 had superficial (selling) French but no better than any other European languages: that is they could sell you something in ALL European languages more or less… from the age of 8! Well impressive. But I would say, without any sources to prove it, that yes French is slowly disappearing from former colonies. That said, I have been meeting  many refugees from West Africa with immaculate French. But often, the type of refugees I meet are the highly educated.

Aren’t loch and lough pronounced the same way? Northern Ireland Gailge and Gàidhlig are fairly similar. As I understand it native speakers of each region can understand each other with some willingness.

to Lankyman. If Pictish language had survived fully, not just in some place names, I would agree with you. Seemingly a great number of Gàidhlig names carry significant influence from the languages spoken before in those areas (Norse, Pictish and Brythonic), but I am not an expert in that- I am just repeating what I read in the SMT book and others sources such as: https://www.ainmean-aite.scot/

We were referring to Northumberland loughs which are pronounced 'luff''

As is Loughrigg, to take things back across to the Lakes or whatever they're called.

Checking my various OS maps it would appear officially to be either 'Lake District National Park' or 'Cumbrian Mountains'. Personally, I've never heard anyone say that they are going to either.

Since childhood it's been 'The Lakes' for me. When we were kids it was always off to 'the Lakes' for a day/week/adventure etc. There was just no need to qualify it with 'District' as everyone knew what was meant (even people just off to Bowness to shop or feed ice cream to the swans).

That was what I was getting at. Although as I understand the modern English pronunciation of 'lough' is different, it is the same word as the Gàedhlig (and Scots) 'loch', and the Irish 'loch', the word 'lough' in Ireland, the Manx 'lough', and indeed would have even sounded the same as the Scottish 'loch' in earlier forms of English.

Does rather raise the question for places with Norse influence to the name close to the Scottish border whether the use of 'lough' could also be present due to a Norse Gaelic influence. But it also seems that loch exists in the p-Celtic languages (confusingly possibly due to a Gaelic influence) and could also exist there because of Old Welsh/Brythonic/Cumbria. Although the Gaelic and Brythonic languages are quite different they are related, with many words for basic landscape type words being similar or even the same, so telling the difference between a Gaelic name, an old Welsh or Pictish name, or an old Welsh or Pictish name with Gaelic influence could be quite difficult.

The difference between Gaelic from different places is even less, indeed it seems that up to around the Middle Irish period they are classed as the same language. The distinction between Irish and Scottish Gaelic is quite an Anglophone perspective, and the languages exist on a continuum (or certainly did before the loss of the language from parts of the continuum) 'Ó Chataibh go Ciarraí'. Gàidhlig, Gaeilge, Gaelg, different, but all different versions of the same thing.

Ooh interesting, will need to pour over maps of the area! I have no idea about pronunciation down that way. 
the border between Northumberland and the Borders is mental: identity tied in with accents…

My Scottish wife has a cousin who grew up in Coldstream. He married his teenage sweetheart from Town YetHolm. As teens they would go to the same dancing, bowling or whatever places. Lived less than 15 miles from each other and yet, two more different accents from the same language I have rarely heard!!!

I still reckon it’s great to have so much diversity over such a small island. I would endeavour to learn local terms and pronunciation as par for the course as a form of respect to the local and a form of recognition to the local culture and history. Always happy to stand corrected if I say something wrong (happens frequently) or ask how on earth I am to say something I haven’t a clue how to read.

FYI I live in a fishing village called Avoch pronounced something like /auch/ rhyming with Scottish loch. 😳

Not one for guessing.