Lynx or 'Caracal' as referred to locally have been co-existing on Table mountain, in cape town for several years with no issues: http://www.urbancaracal.org/
They are pretty good at minding their own business.. bring them back!
So they live on deer. Sounds like a win-win to me.
We already have the Wildcat, which is struggling. How would introducing a competitor help them? If we introduce the Lynx and drive the Wildcats extinct, would we really have gained anything?
> We already have the Wildcat, which is struggling. How would introducing a competitor help them? If we introduce the Lynx and drive the Wildcats extinct, would we really have gained anything?
Isn’t the biggest wildcat threat domestic cats, less and less genetically pure wildcats, there are programmes trying to preserve purity?
Lynx are top of the table, they kill foxes as they are a threat to their own food supply, hares, rabbits, capercaillie etc.. it's likely lynx would view wildcats as competition too.
> We already have the Wildcat, which is struggling. How would introducing a competitor help them? If we introduce the Lynx and drive the Wildcats extinct, would we really have gained anything?
Would wildcats be in competition with lynx? I don't think the primary prey of wildcats is deer?
The hand wringing that accompanies any proposal to re-introduce the lynx really exemplifies the completely warped relationship with nature that exists in the UK.
We live in very degraded natural environment which is still suffering huge damage year by year. The lynx won't turn that around by any means but it should help rejuvenate some woodland by controlling grazers and allowing regrowth. I get really frustrated by the concept of micromanaging reintroductions, the Beaver in the forest of dean are enclosed in a bloody wire prison and closely observed day in day out poor buggers - just let them do their thing and deal with any consequences (which are likely to be minor).
The overbearing reason for re-introducing lynx is beauty.
I imagine if beavers were found to have adverse consequences they would be easy to control or exterminate. Presumably just follow rivers and find dams.
Lynxes would be harder to locate (incidentally I'd probably support their reintroduction). I would have thought that some of the suggestions that they would remain killers of deer and foxes rather than sheep and wildcats (not to mention of ground nesting birds) are overoptimistic .....maybe the experience of reintroductions in other countries are good but their conditions will have differences from the UK.
> The hand wringing that accompanies any proposal to re-introduce the lynx really exemplifies the completely warped relationship with nature that exists in the UK.
Yes, but that is because we have a largely urban population for whom nature is something that happens on TV and has nothing to do with their daily lives. Most of them will be at best indifferent to rewilding, and most will probably have concerns, however misguided, about the reintroduction of "dangerous" wild animals even if they are likely never to encounter one. Rural communities will also be concerned, not only because of perceived dangers from the animals themselves but also wider concerns about the effect on communities and traditional ways of life from rewilding projects which seek to discourage, for example, hill sheep farming.
My only criticism of Attenborough's wonderful Wild Isles programme is that (so far) the message has been only that we need to save these things for their own sake. Whilst this is true, to really engage people it needs to make them understand that even if they live in a city they are part of the ecosystem, and what happens to it will eventually affect them.
Whilst some farmers are embracing biodiversity, others still see it as a distraction from what they see as their real role of producing food. The are accustomed to systems of farming in which eliminating pests and predators was seen as a good thing. It will take time to change that mindset. Whilst they might be compensated for any predation by lynx, most are genuinely concerned about their animals' welfare and are genuinely distressed when they lose animals to dogs. Their motives are not purely financial, and they will need a lot of persuading that the occasional loss of a sheep to a lynx is acceptable.
The intentions behind rewilding are admirable, but there is a lot to do to persuade public opinion.
I was thinking more of competition for territory, most cats in the wild won't tolerate another on their territory. Wildcats being smaller would most likely loose out to the Lynx.
> I was thinking more of competition for territory, most cats in the wild won't tolerate another on their territory. Wildcats being smaller would most likely loose out to the Lynx.
Thank you. I did wonder if we had different understanding of 'competition', and I can see your point now. Wildcats have a hard enough time as it is, and being evicted from their territories would not help. That said, would there be a significant overlap in their territories? My somewhat simple-minded approach is that wildcats would not roam as far and wide as lynx, although that in itself would suggest even more pressure on wildcats, if their potential habitats are already constrained.
Your points kind of sum up my frustration; the idea that perhaps beavers cause some problems to farmers or someone therefore we control or exterminate them rather than make some adaptations/provisions to live with these fascinating, beautiful, crazy creatures!
If lynx kill a few sheep so what; devise a simple compensation scheme with a reasonably high threshold of proof and job done (these schemes exist already).
> I was thinking more of competition for territory, most cats in the wild won't tolerate another on their territory. Wildcats being smaller would most likely loose out to the Lynx.
[citation needed]
> Yes, but that is because we have a largely urban population for whom nature is something that happens on TV and has nothing to do with their daily lives.
This is patronising and presumptuous. Engagement with the natural world is not confined to country dwellers, I would argue that engagement is more important for the urban population, however infrequent, and is recognised to be so by most.
> Most of them will be at best indifferent to rewilding, and most will probably have concerns, however misguided, about the reintroduction of "dangerous" wild animals even if they are likely never to encounter one. Rural communities will also be concerned, not only because of perceived dangers from the animals themselves but also wider concerns about the effect on communities and traditional ways of life from rewilding projects which seek to discourage, for example, hill sheep farming.
The public may be better informed than you think, especially when they are given a few facts.
e.g. that they'll almost certainly never see a lynx (if they were re-introduced), and are much more likely to be injured by a dog.
'Rural communities' or a very vocal, highly subsidised farming lobby?
> My only criticism of Attenborough's wonderful Wild Isles programme is that (so far) the message has been only that we need to save these things for their own sake. Whilst this is true, to really engage people it needs to make them understand that even if they live in a city they are part of the ecosystem, and what happens to it will eventually affect them.
What better reason to save them?
> Whilst some farmers are embracing biodiversity, others still see it as a distraction from what they see as their real role of producing food. The are accustomed to systems of farming in which eliminating pests and predators was seen as a good thing. It will take time to change that mindset.
Agreed but it's happening already to some extent, the direction of travel should be a matter of policy. The CAP replacement grants do seem to a step in the right direction though the implementation should be 'interesting'...
> Whilst they might be compensated for any predation by lynx, most are genuinely concerned about their animals' welfare and are genuinely distressed when they lose animals to dogs. Their motives are not purely financial, and they will need a lot of persuading that the occasional loss of a sheep to a lynx is acceptable.
I think compensation cash will persuade nicely.
> The intentions behind rewilding are admirable, but there is a lot to do to persuade public opinion.
Can't comment much on UK specific issues...
But Lynx is indeed the most predominant apex predator we have here in Finland... and also the least noticed, as in very few people know that there is a lynx nearby. With other big predators (bears and wolf primarily), there's more hub hub and lynch mobs (especially for wolfs) if they're seen around.
But less so with the Lynx. They are still hunted though (with permits), but not that often. And indeed they mainly eat deer and also hare's.
Would love to see one in the wild... but most likely not gonna happen... most probable would be just spotting their paw print in the snow.
TobyA actually opened a mixed line Apollo's Angels (M4) up a big chimney at a winter crag I helped to develop... and the local hunting club actually drove a lynx into that crack, before shooting it (some years prior to Toby opening that line). But considering it is country side, I would not be surprised if there is actually a new lynx roaming on those hills and forests these days.
n.b. Lynx and wild cat, don't have much common in the name of game/food... the big rodents might be one such thing... but I'd be more worried about the Lynx actually eating the wild cats... after all, domestic cats are also on Lynx menu. That being said, cross breading with feral domestic cats is the biggest problem for the wild cat I've heard/read. So in a sense, having lynxes around might actually be good... they'd most likely eat the feral cats, thus more grub for the wild cat and less decontamination with cat dna...
> [citation needed]
This study seems to suggest that lynx and wildcat can coexist: https://bioone.org/journals/mammal-study/volume-45/issue-1/ms2019-0046/Came...
Jim Crumley is in the “don’t know” camp: https://www.scotsmagazine.com/articles/lynx-vs-wildcat/
I don’t know whether Crumley is credible on this subject or whether he is just another “hand wringer”.
With Scottish wildcat numbers so low it might be a bit reckless just to give it a try and see what happens though.
A brief search indicates that Lynx were last in this country in Saxon times. There are a few problems to successful re-introduction. De-forestation, they will hunt on mountain slopes but favour dense woodland. They are also adapted for deep snow which we don't get so much of. Plus prey species. Yes they will take Roe deer but also Artic Hares (rare) and Cappercaille (rare) and pretty much anything inbetween. I have no problem in introducing them but don't see them surviving without a lot of help.
I'd like to know why the Scottish wildcat is struggling so, I might be wrong but I don't think it's being actively persecuted at the moment. Maybe it was in the past and has never recovered.
Perhaps the bare Scottish hills are not actually it's preferred hang-out and it would be more comfortable in forest?
The two cats will have their own niches, presumably the wildcat taking smaller prey.
> Plus prey species. Yes they will take Roe deer but also Artic Hares (rare) and Cappercaille (rare) and pretty much anything inbetween. I have no problem in introducing them but don't see them surviving without a lot of help.
This would be my concern. I know this would be pitched as a reintroduction, rather than introducing an alien species, but given how long they have been absent from our ecosystems it's pretty hard to predict the consequences. There's a long and almost always disastrous history of introducing species, usually with the best of intentions, only for it to go horribly wrong.
> This would be my concern. I know this would be pitched as a reintroduction, rather than introducing an alien species, but given how long they have been absent from our ecosystems it's pretty hard to predict the consequences. There's a long and almost always disastrous history of introducing species, usually with the best of intentions, only for it to go horribly wrong.
What examples are you thinking of? I can think of mink, escaped or released from farming. And the yob of the woods; the grey squirrel, introduced without good intentions.
I think that this . . .
"Even more excitingly, the return of such a charismatic species could transform our relationship with Britain's neglected natural heritage, catalysing a surge in popular interest in our declining native wildlife."
. . . is almost charmingly naive and this . . .
"Many people feel that lynx, as a native species, have an intrinsic right to return to our shores."
. . . is just first class arsewater.
There are some interesting points made and I'd love to see lynx introduced somewhere appropriate - Kielder, say, or Galloway - but too much of that article is froth.
T.
> I'd like to know why the Scottish wildcat is struggling so, I might be wrong but I don't think it's being actively persecuted at the moment. Maybe it was in the past and has never recovered.
There’s plenty of information easily available that explains that. Here’s a Guardian article which covers some of it: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/27/imported-wildcats-could-com...
Hybridisation with domestic cats seems to be the biggest problem.
> The two cats will have their own niches, presumably the wildcat taking smaller prey.
It would be good to know for certain though wouldn’t it. Personally I think the Scottish wildcat is probably f@cked in the wild already.
> What examples are you thinking of? I can think of mink, escaped or released from farming. And the yob of the woods; the grey squirrel, introduced without good intentions.
I guess the classic example of the disastrous deliberate introduction based on a basic lack of understanding (or common sense) is the cane toad in Australia (and this after the experience of the introduction of rabbits).
Plenty of accidental or just capricious introductions. In the UK - signal crayfish, zander, muntjac deer, rats on almost every island they have got to. Lion fish in the Caribbean and Florida, the brown tree snake in Guam.
I'm not saying that lynx are going to reproduce like cane toads, and I get that they were native here once. But that was then, and this is now. Successfully Introducing a top predator to achieve a stable population, even assuming that its presumptive main prey is plentiful, takes a lot of homework (and luck) to get right.
The wild boar of my home turf in the Forest of Dean are a great example of what happens when things aren't done 'properly' and how it doesn't matter.
They originally escaped from a farm near Ross and more were released near Staunton without any control, monitoring or support from anyone. The boar is a pretty significant beast both in person and ecologically. They turn over a lot of ground in search of food including gardens and playing fields. Encountering them is unforgettable, usually they are moving with some purpose through the undergrowth and will put distance between you and them. Occasionally one sees a large (sometimes shockingly so) sow with boarlets (or humbugs); then it's best to back off without disturbing her. As far as I know this beast with a reputation for grumpiness and a set of sharp teeth has only caused one injury - a bitten finger belonging to a dog walker who probably got between a sow and her humbugs.
The locals grumble like hell, no-one has clue how many there are, culls take place, tasty sausages are eaten. But the boar like living here very much. In spite of the grumbling there's no serious wish to eradicate them and people accept their presence.
And the prize for cynic of the week goes to...
> And the prize for cynic of the week goes to...
Not really, it's just speculation what will happen... if lynx are reintroduced and wildcat, pine marten and capercaillie numbers dive, will those originally pro lynx be happy with culling them?
> The wild boar of my home turf in the Forest of Dean are a great example of what happens when things aren't done 'properly' and how it doesn't matter.
I love having the boar about but I would argue it's probably too soon to be sure about their long-term effects, ironically due to the absence of their top predator. Also, they aren't really wild boar but hybrids with domesticated pigs (which might be a good or bad thing).
Feral pigs can have unexpected positive consequences too - they seem to have rescued the rapidly declining saltwater crocodile in northern Australia. Not sure that's an excuse to introduce crocodiles to the Wye in order to keep them under control though.
Not all have been disasterous (though many are) and many have been with us a long time.
Early examples: Black Rat (Indian sub-continent been around since ships have sailed), Brown Rat (18th century), house mouse (bronze age), Feral Cat (Romans), Edible dormice (Romans), Rabbit (Normans), Fallow Deer (Normans)
Later examples: Chinese water deer (1870), Grey squirrel (19th century), Coypu (1929 eradicated 1989), Sika deer (1900), Muntjac deer (1838)
Almost all our game birds are introduced.
Plus several invertebrates Zebra mussel, Signal Crayfish, the aptly named Killer Shrimp, Chinese mitten crab.
The list is long
Fairly good photo of a coypu supposed to be in Somerset recently, but don't think it's been verified
Why would they? Wilcat and pine Martin don't have any real overlap with bigger predators. Don't think capercaillie have much habitat in common, though I'm sure lynx would have ago. Easier options, mind
Oh, that's not me being cynical; that's just me wanting some facts and information instead of fluff like that 'Many people' sentence, which is airy-fairy nonsense.
I'd be content with the names of three people with either tenured academic posts in areas of direct relevance, such as animal ecology, or in senior positions in government bodies or agencies but 'many people' suggests that it's just the author's mates agreeing with him down the pub in the hope that he'll shut up and go and buy his round.
Ok, the very last bit there might be a tiny bit cynical. I'm certainly not against reintroduction per se but lightweight pieces like this article show that there's an awful lot of perspiration needed to back up the aspiration.
T.
Have a look for 'The Lynx and Us' by David Hetherington.He works for the Cairngorm National Park but his PhD was on the possibility of reintroducing Lynx to Britain. For a while it was available as a free download (can't remember where but I have a copy) so you might find it for free on the web somewhere.
> A brief search indicates that Lynx were last in this country in Saxon times. There are a few problems to successful re-introduction. De-forestation, they will hunt on mountain slopes but favour dense woodland.
Not a bad thing considering the claimed risk to sheep. Whilst their usefulness at controlling deer populations would be restricted in certain areas there are plenty of areas they would do well in.
> They are also adapted for deep snow which we don't get so much of.
Nope or more precisely the Canadian one is but the others including the Eurasian one which is the one which would be reintroduced arent. The Eurasian one actually avoids deep snow if possible heading downhill in mountainous habitats for the winter.
> Later examples: Chinese water deer (1870), Grey squirrel (19th century), Coypu (1929 eradicated 1989), Sika deer (1900), Muntjac deer (1838)
If only we had kept some predators that liked snacking on deer.
> Almost all our game birds are introduced.
Its unclear though what their impact would be if they werent enthusiastically "reintroduced" every year. Pheasants in particular I suspect would have at best a very small population within 5-10 years if shooting was stopped tomorrow (it could be tested by, sensibly, banning the release due to the bird flu threat but for some weird reason the government seems happy to keep chickens locked up but not the wild/not wild pheasants).
> So they live on deer. Sounds like a win-win to me.
I’d prefer it if they lived on deer shooters.
jcm
> Your points kind of sum up my frustration; the idea that perhaps beavers cause some problems to farmers or someone therefore we control or exterminate them rather than make some adaptations/provisions to live with these fascinating, beautiful, crazy creatures! If lynx kill a few sheep so what; devise a simple compensation scheme with a reasonably high threshold of proof and job done (these schemes exist already). <
Actually the point I was trying to make was that if it would be relatively easy to find and hence control an introduced species (eg the beaver by just looking for dams on streams) then there would be more reason to "risk" the introduction in the first place. The main"risks" would be unforeseen ecological effects. Introducing beavers has the added advantage of reducing flooding dueto local alterations of the environment of course.
On the other hand lynx are shy and might be hard to find. Incidentally a post backthread mentioned that lynx became extinct in Saxon times, IIRC well before bear, wolves and beaver. So it might be diffiicult for them to be established in the first place. Personally I'd like to see it attempted though.
Edit: I suppose the abscence of wolves in Britain as lynx predators might be a plus for them.
> TobyA actually opened a mixed line Apollo's Angels (M4) up a big chimney at a winter crag I helped to develop... and the local hunting club actually drove a lynx into that crack, before shooting it (some years prior to Toby opening that line).
I didn't know about that! How depressing in a way, but not very surprising considering the power of the hunting lobby in Finland. Had I known, the route name would have had to have been Lynx related rather than ballet related!
> So they live on deer. Sounds like a win-win to me.
It's cuel to have deer chased around by predators.
It's much more humane and better conservation to have rich people shoot them.
> It's cuel to have deer chased around by predators.
> It's much more humane and better conservation to have rich people shoot them.
No there’s a fun ethics question!
> Have a look for 'The Lynx and Us' by David Hetherington.He works for the Cairngorm National Park but his PhD was on the possibility of reintroducing Lynx to Britain. For a while it was available as a free download (can't remember where but I have a copy) so you might find it for free on the web somewhere.
I think you can get it from Linkdin, or from David himself.
> Why would they? Wilcat and pine Martin don't have any real overlap with bigger predators. Don't think capercaillie have much habitat in common, though I'm sure lynx would have ago. Easier options, mind
From my understanding lynx won't be on the tops stalking red deer, they'll stay below the tree line taking anything from mice upto roe deer sized prey. Of course lynx numbers will be low and over a large area they won't eat an area out, perhaps them removing some foxes will balance out predation to a degree.
I'll add I'm pro reintroduction lynx, wolves, beaver etc... but we have to be prepared for some consequences when such animals are put back into the food chain. What about wolverines, amazing but feisty creatures! I propose that reintroduction of lynx has to go in hand with reforestation of properly managed land, so their habit is expanding, not more precious species crammed into the same areas.
How they adapt will likely vary massively by region, after a few generations the eating habits of a Kielder lynx could well differ to Glen Feshie. Most countries that have lynx don't artificially rear grouse and pheasants, which could also become easy prey. There will be some sheep losses too, that's just the way of things with predators and penning in some food for them.
I like the idea of reintroducing lynx but also can understand people's concerns.
I wonder if it would mean that all those awful deer fences would have to be removed - that would be a plus point.
> Would wildcats be in competition with lynx? I don't think the primary prey of wildcats is deer?
Lynx eat what they can catch. Might be a hare, might be a deer and anything else they can get like rabbits, birds etc.
Scottish wildcat don't eat deer, but their diet does overlap with lynx to a certain extent. Even a slight amount of competition might be the final straw that breaks the wildcat population
If they only introduce Lynx in areas where the wildcat is already lost, maybe this could work
Just to make sure my post is the usual level of information, see how the Wye valley rewilded wolf pack is getting on https://wolves.live/the-welsh-borders-and-wye-valley-pack/
> Nope or more precisely the Canadian one is but the others including the Eurasian one which is the one which would be reintroduced arent. The Eurasian one actually avoids deep snow if possible heading downhill in mountainous habitats for the winter.
Interesting. i didn't know that
> I’d prefer it if they lived on deer shooters.
> jcm
Deer do need to be culled, not least in conservation areas. The RSPB gets round the moral dilemma by using marksmen who are certified not to enjoy doing it (but do eat them afterwards).
> Just to make sure my post is the usual level of information, see how the Wye valley rewilded wolf pack is getting on https://wolves.live/the-welsh-borders-and-wye-valley-pack/
Eleven days too early?
The book is available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lynx-Us-David-Hetherington/dp/0956842321
His PhD thesis is here: https://www.roydennis.org/o/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Hetherington-Thesis....
This short piece by Roy Dennis (who has been argueing for reintroducing lynx for many years & who has pratical experience of other reintroductions/translocations including sea eagles, red kites & red squirrels) might be of interest
https://markavery.info/2023/03/10/guest-blog-the-art-of-the-impossible-by-r...
shhh..... you never know, one person just might be surprised by what's "happening"
This has just floated by. 2 caveats- I've only read the abstract, and it's beaver specific, but it looks interesting if you fancy a deeper dive ( ooh er into beavers gurk fnarr etc- I'm saving time here)
How would they compete with all the panthers that local papers keep reporting on?
I would agree with you that research should be undertaken before any reintroduction, and that has been the case for past reintroductions to the UK. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to make between native fauna, even extinct species, and that of non native invasive species that you have listed like cane toads etc because they never occurred in those environments before so the native fauna has no adaption to the introduced threat. That being said, if lynx were to be reintroduced, then there be pro’s and cons from a land management and public health perspective e.g pros like a reduction in the roe deer population with benefits for woodland regeneration and a linked reduction in tick abundance/prevalence of tick borne diseases. Con increased predation of sheep. Any reintroduction would be have to be married with a proper scheme to protect livestock and compensate farmers for losses. Ideally a scheme such as in Finland whereby farmers are paid a grant for having top predators on their land rather than being paid for and having to provide evidence of predation losses.