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/ ARTICLE: Lattice Training Series with Tom Randall - Part 5: Finger Strength Rules

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UKC Articles - on 22 Nov 2018
Tom Randall training on the campus boardCrack connoisseur, training guru and director of Lattice Training, Tom Randall, shares some training tips, complete with live Q&A sessions in the forums from 7-9pm. Ask him anything! (Within reason...!) Download Lattice's new (and free) training app Crimpd to assist with these drills.
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Andy Reeve on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the article. I remember you recently answering a question (maybe on ukb or Facebook) about someone who had recently spent a few months primarily fingerboarding (I think they'd recently had a child) with very low volume and no extra climbing. They now found that they had very limited energy when they went climbing and couldn't last long in a session. I'm interested in how you would balance a low volume of training (in order to get good strength results) without losing this basic level of climbing fitness / preparedness. Or put another way, how much extra climbing, and at what intensity, should a max hangs sessions be combined with through the week in order to ensure a sufficiently high level of load so that the training stimulus is maintained? 

Cheers, Andy

8dreams - on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Hi Tom,

First of all thank you for all those extremely informative articles. I myself struggle with comparatively very weak fingers (also according to the Lattice Assessment) so I am very much interested in this topic From what I've read 7 sec hang can be somewhat related to 1 rep from weight lifting exercises. In that sense max hang protocol of 5-10 sec hang and 1-3 min rest relates to 1 rep max. This doesn't sound so effective in building strength but rather in the central nervous system (hence also reaching plateau fast). Then there is the popular 6 reps times (7 hang , 3 sec rest) which sounds a bit better when related to power lifting. Still, though: why only 3 sec rest?!? So given those thoughts, what do you think about a protocol which is 4-5 reps of 7 sec hang and around 10 sec rest between hangs? I know that at the end those are details, and consistency is way more important, but I am just wondering if there is a flaw in my way of reasoning.

Jack jk on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Hi Tom, 

Thanks for the articles (and the app!) You mention the importance of consistency and not changing muscle group - how does this relate to grip position? Are you suggesting we train grip positions one at a time in 6-12 week blocks? If this isn't the case how would you structure the training of multiple grips concurrently? 

Thanks! 

TomPR on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Reeve:

> Hi Tom,

> Thanks for the article. I remember you recently answering a question (maybe on ukb or Facebook) about someone who had recently spent a few months primarily fingerboarding (I think they'd recently had a child) with very low volume and no extra climbing. They now found that they had very limited energy when they went climbing and couldn't last long in a session. I'm interested in how you would balance a low volume of training (in order to get good strength results) without losing this basic level of climbing fitness / preparedness. Or put another way, how much extra climbing, and at what intensity, should a max hangs sessions be combined with through the week in order to ensure a sufficiently high level of load so that the training stimulus is maintained? 

> Cheers, Andy

Hi Andy, 

It mainly depends on how much you need to prioritise your finger strength gains, how much you've struggled with it in the past and what kind of volume you're adjusted to! In the case of the individual (if I remember rightly) you're talking about it was a case of "needs must" as they struggled for time with new baby. As a result they had gains in FS, but that volume or loading of work that they could handle really went down. If you're in a fortunate enough situation that you have a reasonable amount of spare time, then I'd suggest something along the lines of seriously prioritising FS for perhaps 6-8 weeks to see what kind of response you see. This will then allow you to be more objective about next steps....

In terms of loading, then it really comes down to the athlete history. If you're wanting to make changes in your FS then you must (must!) commit to a regime of training that causes overload. If the amount of all of the rest of your climbing/training is too much and results in your fingerboard sessions being sub-optimal (read less than the right intensity) then you're going to struggle to overload. 

As a VERY rough rule of thumb, you should feel that you're doing less overall weekly volume than you could when really prioritising strength work. It's that feeling each day where you think "ah yes, I could have done an extra 30 mins or I don't really need a rest day tomorrow" rather than what we see with a lot of people who say "oooh, I love beasting myself and I love that feeling of total exhaustion at the ends of sessions and also I feel guilty if I'm not pretty tired at least 50% of the week"

 

Hope that helps! 

TomPR on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to Jack jk:

> Hi Tom, 

> Thanks for the articles (and the app!) You mention the importance of consistency and not changing muscle group - how does this relate to grip position? Are you suggesting we train grip positions one at a time in 6-12 week blocks? If this isn't the case how would you structure the training of multiple grips concurrently? 

> Thanks! 

Hi Jack, 

Yes so you've nailed it here! There are going to be changes in muscle groups worked if you change grip positions so IF you're looking for that very top percentage of FS scores then you can't be too varied. You need to really focus on a set grip (we really favour 4 finger half crimp). 

That said, it is very useful to train in varied grips, but is often more relevant to people who are looking for maintenance, suffer from a lot of RSI type injuries or are looking for slow, steady improvement. 

If I take a few of our best athletes who are up in the V11-14 range and 8b+ to 9a range, 90+% of them have spent the last 3-5yrs training in 4 finger half crimp. Sometimes simple really IS effective! 

There's a few different FB workouts in the Crimpd App, so have a bit of a look at each one and then try to single one out or stick to perhaps a combo of 2. Don't make it too complicated!

 

 

Ally Smith on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Hi Tom,

What is your opinion on blood flow restriction training as a tool for improving finger strength?

Pseudo science or intriguing avenue for research?

p.s. totally agree about removing life stress boosting gains. Working from home this year and not having 10hrs a week in the car has been really beneficial!

L clifbarismylife on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:   Hi Tom, I've got 2 quesions!  As I've noticed, most of the climbers that has already started fingerboarding keep doing it very often for a long time.   1. Usually I do training with  some periodziation for example 3 weeks of strength, 2 weeks of power endurance, 1 week with just one little training and repeat the whole cycle.  A lot of fingerboard programs lasts at least 6 weeks (Eva Lopez for example). Should my deadhangs plan just go in it's own little training regime ( because it takes only about 30-45 min after warm up) no matter if  I'm actually during my power endurance block for example? It is alright ( in view of results) to do some 90% max hangs after warm up and then after some rest go to do some circuits/ interwals? Or shouldn't I change the whole periodization and make it lasts longer?

2. I feel strong when it comes to weighted dead hangs on  BM 15 mm edge, I can add almost my-weight load and hang for 7-10 seconds, but I feel disproportionately week when it comes to one arm dead hang. Should i focus on it or just do some shouler exercises? Thanks for your interest!

Post edited at 19:30
Andy Reeve on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to TomPR:

Nice one, cheers Tom. Some useful rules of thumb for me with my urge to always do more. Thanks again.

TomPR on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to Ally Smith:

This is a topic that test discussed quite a lot with us! Overall, we've still got quite a bit more reading to do and possibly a bit of research/trial with the products....

But in the meantime: 

1. Highly probably that it's an excellent rehab device. Lots of good reasons why it's a useful and appropriate tool for this

2. Less certain about the strength element due to the lack of tendon loading BUT this is without us being convinced one way or the other. 

A number of our athletes have played around with the BFR protocols (measured or by feel) and results are promising.... but it's an n=low number in this case still. Very worthwhile subject to explore more though!! Lots of quality research out there too. 

TomPR on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to Andy Reeve:

Yeah you're a trad climber through and through Andy . If it's any consolation many of us who have the same backgrounds are in exactly the same situation..

TomPR on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to clifbarismylife:

>   Hi Tom, I've got 2 quesions!  As I've noticed, most of the climbers that has already started fingerboarding keep doing it very often for a long time.   1. Usually I do training with  some periodziation for example 3 weeks of strength, 2 weeks of power endurance, 1 week with just one little training and repeat the whole cycle.  A lot of fingerboard programs lasts at least 6 weeks (Eva Lopez for example). Should my deadhangs plan just go in it's own little training regime ( because it takes only about 30-45 min after warm up) no matter if  I'm actually during my power endurance block for example? It is alright ( in view of results) to do some 90% max hangs after warm up and then after some rest go to do some circuits/ interwals? Or shouldn't I change the whole periodization and make it lasts longer?

> 2. I feel strong when it comes to weighted dead hangs on  BM 15 mm edge, I can add almost my-weight load and hang for 7-10 seconds, but I feel disproportionately week when it comes to one arm dead hang. Should i focus on it or just do some shouler exercises? Thanks for your interest!

Ok so a few points here to address! 

1. I'd suggest that this 3:2:1 cycle could potentially be sub-optimal in terms of training returns. I don't want to do down your method too much as I'd hate to be contrary to your coach (I'm going to assume that you do perhaps have one) but it could be a good conversation to have with them along the lines of "would you be interested in looking at non-linear way of organising my training?"

2. Eva Lopez isn't necessarily saying that 6 weeks is THE way to train for FB (I'm pretty sure I'm paraphrasing her correctly here!) as I'm thinking that you're probably quoting some of her studies? What you'll find is that 6 weeks WILL have results, but you should also look at longer cycles (with down-weeks of course) and keep the work consistent. 

3. Phasing and ordering - yes I'm (and Lattice) a strong advocate for training on the FB at the start of the session and then, for example, following it with some power endurance climbing. You could of course do just one of them, but I'm assuming that your aim it to work both strength and strength endurance. 

4. Single arm hangs - if you're able to hang controlled and with good form on a large hold single armed, then you should certainly consider doing some hard 1 arm FB. We use a combo of 1 and 2 arm hangs with our clients and a well rounded climber won't have holes in their "dead hang profile". Darn, I can't believe I said deadhang profile!! ha! Anyway... sign of the times eh?

 

Jack jk on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to TomPR:

Ok, that makes sense. 

When you say one or two exercises from the app do you mean across the finger boarding and bouldering sections? Which leads on the the question how would you integrate a consistent, low volume training regeime (on a fingerboard at home) with still going to the wall to see friends and do the thing you love?

Max hangs in the morning and 'style triads' at the wall on separate days? Or max hangs in the morning and an easy open session whenever? 

Thanks again - really useful being able have a back and forth with these kind of queries!  

George Ormerod - on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Apart from pity, do you have any advice for or experience of, ice climbing grip training.  At the moment I'm doing 6 x 12-14 second ice axe hangs with a 20 lbs vest on, gradually increasing the weight.  This is kind of from the Training for the New Alpinism by Steve House.  Nevertheless I still got pumped out of my mind on the first WI3 of the season!

Thanks

TomPR on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to 8dreams:

> Hi Tom,

> First of all thank you for all those extremely informative articles. I myself struggle with comparatively very weak fingers (also according to the Lattice Assessment) so I am very much interested in this topic From what I've read 7 sec hang can be somewhat related to 1 rep from weight lifting exercises. In that sense max hang protocol of 5-10 sec hang and 1-3 min rest relates to 1 rep max. This doesn't sound so effective in building strength but rather in the central nervous system (hence also reaching plateau fast). Then there is the popular 6 reps times (7 hang , 3 sec rest) which sounds a bit better when related to power lifting. Still, though: why only 3 sec rest?!? So given those thoughts, what do you think about a protocol which is 4-5 reps of 7 sec hang and around 10 sec rest between hangs? I know that at the end those are details, and consistency is way more important, but I am just wondering if there is a flaw in my way of reasoning.

Sorry, I completely missed your question somehow! 

Max Hangs - yup you're exactly right in saying this is going to have a strong influence on neural patterns and we give it a catchall term of "recruitment". What doesn't always go noted is the long term adaptations to ligament/tendon structures that will also occur during this type of training and a constant (I think best termed "learned") improvement in understanding how hard we can actually pull. It's a fascinating process if you still with max hangs for years and years. 

Repeaters - again you're right in saying that you'll see different kinds of strength benefits. As to the 3 secs rest then this is a very flexible part of the protocol and in many senses it's dependent on what % of max you're operating at. If for example, it's at 85% of max, then you might find benefits to increasing that rest time to 10 secs... Likewise you could drop the work time to 5 secs and run a 5:5 repeater. Another element that effects it is the "training-age" that you have and how well adapted you are to both FB training and general forearm training. 

 

 

TomPR on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to Jack jk:

> When you say one or two exercises from the app do you mean across the finger boarding and bouldering sections? Which leads on the the question how would you integrate a consistent, low volume training regeime (on a fingerboard at home) with still going to the wall to see friends and do the thing you love?

> Max hangs in the morning and 'style triads' at the wall on separate days? Or max hangs in the morning and an easy open session whenever? 

> Thanks again - really useful being able have a back and forth with these kind of queries!  

1. Yeah I meant across the FB sessions. So for example you might do 1 x Max hangs and 1 x Varied grip within the App if you wanted to take a slightly less focused approach. 

2. Combining hard training with "fun" is nearly always best ordered as work first, fun second. We all know it's super important to put quality into the work section, so you'll be more likely to do this when fresher and more motivated. I'd typically do a FB + board session at home for 1hr and then go to the wall to hangout, do easy circuits with friends for 1-2hrs after. 

3. Your 2 suggested options are both fine!

4. Qs in general. Always happy to help if I can. Lots of different platforms these days so doing a focused Q&A on UKC works well so I can be of max use for an evening ;-)

TomPR on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to George Ormerod:

Hmmmmm.... good question!! I have to say I'm a little bit out of my depth on this one. I'd say Dave Mac is the man to ask!! I know he's really helpful with this kind of stuff and I certainly respect his opinion and experience enough to say I'm 100% certain he'd have a good bit of advice. 

At first glance (and this is seriously blagging it a bit!) it would appear that your hangs are pretty long (12-14secs) and not very great in volume overall (6 reps). My thought would be that you need to make sure the overall time under tension is fairly high and the individual rep duration isn't too long. 

Sorry I can't be of more help! 

George Ormerod - on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to TomPR:

Thanks, stuff the think about, but now I'm off to do a bit of climbing.  I'm lucky and in Canada, with sort of roadside ice cragging.

kevin stephens - on 22 Nov 2018
In reply to TomPR:

Hi Tom, I have a two part question:

What does your data tell you about older (60ish) climbers?  Finger strength used to be my main asset but it has diminished over the years, partly due to lack of systematic training?

I have found circuit board training enjoyable and effective over last 2 winters for everything except finger strength - shoulders, arms, footwork and mobility.  Would two finger board sessions and one circuit board sessions each week be counter productive, bearing in mind need for recovery at my age?

Many thanks

stp - on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Good article. Thanks Tom

 

There's also a new podcast (and a transcript if you prefer to read) of Tom and Ollie on Training Beta. More on fingerboarding as well as some interesting stuff on working out with limited time.

https://www.trainingbeta.com/media/lattice-time-hacks/?portfolioCats=72

TomPR on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

Hi Kevin, 

The data tells us that the finger strength required for any particular grade stays consistent across the age groups I'm afraid! If (for example) you were to need 95% body weight carried for Font 7C at 40yrs, then the same would apply, statistically speaking, at 50yrs and 60yrs. In reality, there may well be an increase in mental game, strategy, endurance etc etc, which would help the overall bigger picture. I've been asked a lot about juniors as well and I'm afraid to say that they also need completely "normal" levels of FS for the grades. 

Training question - really hard to hard answer on specifics as every person is so different (history, profile, goals, injury patterns) but broadly speaking your suggestion of 2 x FB and 1 x power endurance  is a fair one. I'm having to assume quite a lot here though! If for example, your base aerobic conditioning is very poor, then there much less of an argument for hitting the power endurance early and likewise if you have no history at all of FB training, then you should at least look at 1 x week for 6-8 weeks to "learn" this style of training and let the body adapt to positions and intensity. 

Hope that helps! 

> Hi Tom, I have a two part question:

> What does your data tell you about older (60ish) climbers?  Finger strength used to be my main asset but it has diminished over the years, partly due to lack of systematic training?

> I have found circuit board training enjoyable and effective over last 2 winters for everything except finger strength - shoulders, arms, footwork and mobility.  Would two finger board sessions and one circuit board sessions each week be counter productive, bearing in mind need for recovery at my age?

> Many thanks

 

kevin stephens - on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to TomPR:

Thanks Tom, very helpful. My question was really about how age effects adaptation to FB training, ie is there a similar relationship to that you cited for under nourishment?

Toerag - on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Interesting to read about fingerboarding for juniors - when I did club level athletics in my teens in the late 80s/early 90s using weights was really frowned upon as it apparently caused long term muskulo-skeletal problems - bodies grew differently when subjected to weight training.  Is this no longer believed to be the case? Or are all the fingerboarding kids going to be having massive arthritis issues in their 50s no-one has considered now?

Post edited at 11:47
sheavi07 - on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Thanks for the article.  Re: training finger strength in youngsters. I feel this part of the article needs greater depth.  There is plenty of evidence of finger growth plate fractures in young climbers - published studies not anecdotal.  Of course you are correct about no campussing but specifically training finger strength in youngsters on a fingerboard needs close supervision and further advice about what to look out for to prevent injury etc. Perhaps a link to the BMC article on growth plate fractures in teenagers would be a good idea.  Thanks again.

A good article here

https://trainingforclimbing.com/reducing-risk-of-growth-plate-fractures-in-youth-climbers/

 

Quote: 

My colleague, Dr. Volker Schöffl, has been studying climbing injuries for 20 years and he’s documented a 600 percent increase in epiphyseal fractures over the past decade.

Early identification of this often insidious injury and a relatively short layoff from climbing (a few months) usually leads to a rapid resolution and return to climbing. Left to their own devices, however, many youths will continue to climb despite ongoing of finger pain. Consequently, it’s essential that coach (or parent) direct a reduction in—or complete withdraw from—climbing until the pain subsides. Consulting an Orthopedist is prudent, and a simple hand X-Ray will reveal the extent of the injury. Sadly, some parents and coaches remain ignorant and, incredibly, there are a few coaches who deny that this injury is even “real”…perhaps to allow their continued use of inappropriate (advanced) training tactics in the quest of developing the next champion climber.

 

Post edited at 12:21
sheavi07 - on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Epiphyseal stress fractures in the fingers of adolescents: Biomechanics, of adolescents: Biomechanics, Pathomechanism, and Risk factors Pathomechanism, and Risk factors

http://www.eujsm.eu/index.php/EUJSM/article/viewFile/95/49

 

https://www.senderoneclimbing.com/parenting-beta-injuries-young-climbers/

Post edited at 12:36
TomPR on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to sheavi07:

> Thanks for the article.  Re: training finger strength in youngsters. I feel this part of the article needs greater depth.  There is plenty of evidence of finger growth plate fractures in young climbers - published studies not anecdotal.  Of course you are correct about no campussing but specifically training finger strength in youngsters on a fingerboard needs close supervision and further advice about what to look out for to prevent injury etc. Perhaps a link to the BMC article on growth plate fractures in teenagers would be a good idea.  Thanks again.

Yeah I think this is a great point that finger strength training in youngster needs more in depth work and I welcome more studies and more people sharing their experience. What I'm trying to do in this article is show the common patterns, the main rules that affect strength levels to "outlier" levels and what we can learn from it. 

When it comes down to FB training in juniors, I'm confident that we have the longest track record of it, the most progressive methods, the most rigorous data collection around it and the support of years and years of experience (this itself could be used for publishing). What we're most interested in, is climbers remaining healthy, performing at a high level and staying on a life-long participation curve. I've personally been working with elite level juniors for a decade now from 6a to 9a and the injury incidence rate has dropped hugely since using careful, progressive, appropriate and guided fingerboarding. 

 

 

TomPR on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to Toerag:

> Interesting to read about fingerboarding for juniors - when I did club level athletics in my teens in the late 80s/early 90s using weights was really frowned upon as it apparently caused long term muskulo-skeletal problems - bodies grew differently when subjected to weight training.  Is this no longer believed to be the case? Or are all the fingerboarding kids going to be having massive arthritis issues in their 50s no-one has considered now?

Re: not strength training juniors - you're correct in saying that this is no longer the case. There's lot of very good advice out there on strength and conditioning best practice for adolescents whether it's online or book form. There's a section on the BMC Physical Training courses on this, which might be worth looking at. The key elements are that it's supervised by an appropriate individual, the junior has an appropriate training "history", that form is learnt at low intensity before applying heavier loads and that frequency and adaptation need to be very carefully monitored. 

Re: repercussions. This one is going to be almost impossible to say with total certainty. Will we see the same with many of our juniors now climbing in bouldering centres >2x week? Will we regret the current "run and jump" style of dynamic loading problems in comps? Is this reckless to do at a young climber's total limits? Are we not spending enough time teaching our juniors how to fall properly from the top of a wall? Lots of big questions! 

 

 

sheavi07 - on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to TomPR:

Thanks for the considered reply.  I've no doubt that your methods are sound. My concern was that someone reading the article decides that it's green light for training kids on fingerboards, and for that matter too much indoor bouldering, without the appropriate knowledge.  If you ever get round to publishing your data on this issue I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated by those dealing with training kids and/or dealing with these growth plate injuries that in some cases lead eventually to having to cease climbing.  Cheers

tomaspkr - on 23 Nov 2018
In reply to TomPR

Hi Tom, what is your opinion on finger rolls for finger strength training? Can they substitute hangboarding? Would you use them together with fingerboarding (e.g. 4 finger max hangs + some sets of finger rolls). Or would you just not bother with them at all?

Post edited at 18:51
TomPR on 24 Nov 2018
In reply to sheavi07:

> Thanks for the considered reply.  I've no doubt that your methods are sound. My concern was that someone reading the article decides that it's green light for training kids on fingerboards, and for that matter too much indoor bouldering, without the appropriate knowledge.  If you ever get round to publishing your data on this issue I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated by those dealing with training kids and/or dealing with these growth plate injuries that in some cases lead eventually to having to cease climbing.  Cheers

You're certainly correct in saying that there's always a concern with juniors using inappropriate equipment or methods - the BMC has done some great work with this over the recent years with Campus. Lots of signs, coaches agreeing to stop that work etc etc. 

As a quick reminder on here, in case people don't go all the way into the article:

Rule 1: We do not campus board with juniors (it's too hard to control the intensity and too high impact)

Rule 2: All fingerboard training should be under the guidance of a professional with appropriate experience and qualification.

Rule 3: It is not a silver bullet for success. It's just one part of the equation.

Extra rules:

1. Go an see a GP immediately if you suffer finger pain (most GPs in the UK are now very good with growth plate diagnosis and referrals. 

2. Don't train strength to failure in juniors (although there are exceptions)

3. Focus on form first, learn movements and do it typically at bodyweight

4. Be aware of PHV in your junior athlete

5. Be conservative! 

TomPR on 24 Nov 2018
In reply to tomaspkr:

> In reply to TomPR

> Hi Tom, what is your opinion on finger rolls for finger strength training? Can they substitute hangboarding? Would you use them together with fingerboarding (e.g. 4 finger max hangs + some sets of finger rolls). Or would you just not bother with them at all?

YES!! We're advocates of this and we use a number of different forms of finger rolls / wrist curls. I had lots of success with this during my first period of working max strength when I took the plunge and let Ollie Torr control my forearm's destiny (yup, I found it hard to give out that control!). 

I was doing 2-3 sets of max recruitment hangs per week + 1-2 heavy finger curls/rolls for both flexors and extensor. This was combined with a lot of prone and supine rings/TRX work and if I remember, I saw something like an 8kg improvement in FS over around 3 months (apologies if I misremember). It blew my mind. DO remember that this was specific to my personal history, my weaknesses and the fact that it was combined with my first time in about 10yrs of dropping my training volume by 50% 

kevin stephens - on 24 Nov 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

following up on the above posts, there seems to be a lot of research and know how on how youngsters respond to training, but very little on climbers in their 50s/60s/70s - take a look at the age spread at the climbing walls - surely lots of fertile ground for research?

 

TomPR on 25 Nov 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

Hi Kevin, the 3rd article (2 weeks time) will be looking at over 50s.... hope that gives you something to look forward to! 

I suspect it will be a contentious one :-D

 

Tom

 

kevin stephens - on 25 Nov 2018
In reply to TomPR:

thanks Tom, looking forward to it

JLS on 25 Nov 2018
In reply to TomPR:

>"I suspect it will be a contentious one :-D"

Let me guess, you are going to tell us that the only reason us oldies aren't all climbing like Ben Moon is because we're lazy and soft...

kevin stephens - on 25 Nov 2018
In reply to JLS:

Ben Moon isn’t old


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