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The formidable axe-wielding duo Greg Boswell and Guy Robertson have made a promising start to their 2017/18 Scottish winter campaign with a hard first ascent on Church Door Buttress, Bidean nam Bian. As the name suggests, Lost Arrow Winter Variation is an interpretation of the summer E3 Lost Arrow, with a significant amount of new ground involved in the line.
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Really? For a steep cliff it looks pretty well plastered to me.
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In reply to Deadeye:
You've got 8 likes which suggest there are 9 people who aren't aware of their cluelessness about winter climbing.
You've got 8 likes which suggest there are 9 people who aren't aware of their cluelessness about winter climbing.
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In reply to Deadeye:
Your post is ambiguous “Deadeye”. It could be read as you being sceptical about the winteriness of the cliff on the day the route was climbed. Is that what you intended to convey?
Your post is ambiguous “Deadeye”. It could be read as you being sceptical about the winteriness of the cliff on the day the route was climbed. Is that what you intended to convey?
In reply to UKC News: This is outstanding, looks utterly brilliant. Well done men. Conditions look sublime.
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In reply to Malcolm Bass:
No reply? That's a shame. It seems to me that one of the unusual features of climbing is that it is largely self regulated. A lot of what we do as climbers is under own authority, there aren't many people or bodies setting the "rules" (although some try). So usually we are free to decide what we as individuals and as a community find acceptable, choose to celebrate or choose to condemn. And it seems to me the only way to do that is by open and respectful debate. I think this applies to English, Welsh and Scottish winter climbing, one of the more contentious areas, and the one that I am personally most involved with. Before I gave this much thought I used to think that I find all the endless "wintery or not, white or not" debates boring and frustrating and wished they would go away. But more recently it has seemed to me that it is the poor quality of a lot of the debate, rather than the issues themselves, that can make it seem tedious. I now think we need to keep having the debate about what counts as a winter ascent, about what does and doesn't harm the environment, and about the relationship between winter climbing and rock climbs. This would mean the proponents of all points of view explaining why they see things as they do. So I was hoping Deadeye would reply to my question, and perhaps expand on his/her comment, and then we could have had a debate. I would have preferred him/her to use their real name because I think it is likely that use of real names and real world identities would lead to more respectful discussions on here. Anyway, back to the route: I climbed on Church Door the day before Guy and Greg did their route, it was properly wintery. And I saw the cliff the day they were on it, and it was even whiter following overnight snow and riming. And their report makes clear that there was ice (helpful and otherwise) on crucial sections. The phrase "full winter conditions" is itself a bit ambiguous because it is also used to mean a wild day of blowing snow and wind, and that Monday wasn't like that in Glencoe, but in my view that part of the cliff was in good winter condition.
No reply? That's a shame. It seems to me that one of the unusual features of climbing is that it is largely self regulated. A lot of what we do as climbers is under own authority, there aren't many people or bodies setting the "rules" (although some try). So usually we are free to decide what we as individuals and as a community find acceptable, choose to celebrate or choose to condemn. And it seems to me the only way to do that is by open and respectful debate. I think this applies to English, Welsh and Scottish winter climbing, one of the more contentious areas, and the one that I am personally most involved with. Before I gave this much thought I used to think that I find all the endless "wintery or not, white or not" debates boring and frustrating and wished they would go away. But more recently it has seemed to me that it is the poor quality of a lot of the debate, rather than the issues themselves, that can make it seem tedious. I now think we need to keep having the debate about what counts as a winter ascent, about what does and doesn't harm the environment, and about the relationship between winter climbing and rock climbs. This would mean the proponents of all points of view explaining why they see things as they do. So I was hoping Deadeye would reply to my question, and perhaps expand on his/her comment, and then we could have had a debate. I would have preferred him/her to use their real name because I think it is likely that use of real names and real world identities would lead to more respectful discussions on here. Anyway, back to the route: I climbed on Church Door the day before Guy and Greg did their route, it was properly wintery. And I saw the cliff the day they were on it, and it was even whiter following overnight snow and riming. And their report makes clear that there was ice (helpful and otherwise) on crucial sections. The phrase "full winter conditions" is itself a bit ambiguous because it is also used to mean a wild day of blowing snow and wind, and that Monday wasn't like that in Glencoe, but in my view that part of the cliff was in good winter condition.
Post edited at 19:00
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In reply to Malcolm Bass:
Sorry - hadn't spotted the question (or the reaction - which means I'm responding with a bit of a heavy heart to be honest!).
I believe that what has happened is a gradual shift in what's "acceptable". It's happened in the bolting debate too, although resulted in less enactment to-date.
To illustrate my point - look at this thread from 14 years ago: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=33121
If I interpret the likes/dislikes to my comment as "not in favour of this style/in favour" (a bit of extrapolation I agree) the balance is clearly in favour. When SS was climbed - in very similar conditions - the response was broadly other other way (it felt to me reading it at the time). The arguments in that thread are still the arguments.
For some of us, a winter climb means your picks are in snow, ice or turf at all times.... and if that means there's never a route harder than say VI or VII, so be it.
Some of the dislikes will have been because I didn't support the comment with any additional substance. I suppose that was weary resignation - I feel I should advance the argument, but accept the balance has tipped and a majority find it acceptable. In other words it was more a small flag to people that feel the same that they're not alone!
I think the relentless (and joyful) drive for new routes inevitably ends with "if it's rimed it's ok", even if it's more or less dry tooling. Stanage was well rimed the day that chap tried to tool up Embankment 2...
> No reply? That's a shame. It seems to me that one of the unusual features of climbing is that it is largely self regulated. A lot of what we do as climbers is under own authority, there aren't many people or bodies setting the "rules" (although some try). So usually we are free to decide what we as individuals and as a community find acceptable, choose to celebrate or choose to condemn. And it seems to me the only way to do that is by open and respectful debate. I think this applies to English, Welsh and Scottish winter climbing, one of the more contentious areas, and the one that I am personally most involved with. Before I gave this much thought I used to think that I find all the endless "wintery or not, white or not" debates boring and frustrating and wished they would go away. But more recently it has seemed to me that it is the poor quality of a lot of the debate, rather than the issues themselves, that can make it seem tedious. I now think we need to keep having the debate about what counts as a winter ascent, about what does and doesn't harm the environment, and about the relationship between winter climbing and rock climbs. This would mean the proponents of all points of view explaining why they see things as they do. So I was hoping Deadeye would reply to my question, and perhaps expand on his/her comment, and then we could have had a debate. I would have preferred him/her to use their real name because I think it is likely that use of real names and real world identities would lead to more respectful discussions on here. Anyway, back to the route: I climbed on Church Door the day before Guy and Greg did their route, it was properly wintery. And I saw the cliff the day they were on it, and it was even whiter following overnight snow and riming. And their report makes clear that there was ice (helpful and otherwise) on crucial sections. The phrase "full winter conditions" is itself a bit ambiguous because it is also used to mean a wild day of blowing snow and wind, and that Monday wasn't like that in Glencoe, but in my view that part of the cliff was in good winter condition.
Sorry - hadn't spotted the question (or the reaction - which means I'm responding with a bit of a heavy heart to be honest!).
I believe that what has happened is a gradual shift in what's "acceptable". It's happened in the bolting debate too, although resulted in less enactment to-date.
To illustrate my point - look at this thread from 14 years ago: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=33121
If I interpret the likes/dislikes to my comment as "not in favour of this style/in favour" (a bit of extrapolation I agree) the balance is clearly in favour. When SS was climbed - in very similar conditions - the response was broadly other other way (it felt to me reading it at the time). The arguments in that thread are still the arguments.
For some of us, a winter climb means your picks are in snow, ice or turf at all times.... and if that means there's never a route harder than say VI or VII, so be it.
Some of the dislikes will have been because I didn't support the comment with any additional substance. I suppose that was weary resignation - I feel I should advance the argument, but accept the balance has tipped and a majority find it acceptable. In other words it was more a small flag to people that feel the same that they're not alone!
I think the relentless (and joyful) drive for new routes inevitably ends with "if it's rimed it's ok", even if it's more or less dry tooling. Stanage was well rimed the day that chap tried to tool up Embankment 2...
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In reply to Malcolm Bass:
It seems to me that what counts as a winter ascent should be very simple: it is when it is easier to climb with crampons and axes than without. Any other definition just seems contrived to me.
Of course the debates about hacking off unfrozen turf and scratching the rock are important but I don't think they have anything to do with whether a route is in winter condition or not.
> I now think we need to keep having the debate about what counts as a winter ascent, about what does and doesn't harm the environment, and about the relationship between winter climbing and rock climbs.
It seems to me that what counts as a winter ascent should be very simple: it is when it is easier to climb with crampons and axes than without. Any other definition just seems contrived to me.
Of course the debates about hacking off unfrozen turf and scratching the rock are important but I don't think they have anything to do with whether a route is in winter condition or not.
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In reply to Deadeye:
So no Tower Ridge, Eagle Ridge, anything in the northern corries etc???
> For some of us, a winter climb means your picks are in snow, ice or turf at all times.... and if that means there's never a route harder than say VI or VII, so be it.
So no Tower Ridge, Eagle Ridge, anything in the northern corries etc???
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In reply to Deadeye:
I'm sure there has been a shift in what's considered 'winter conditions' ( see Robin Campbell's comment on Scottish Winter http://www.scottishwinter.com/?p=6561#comments )
But its not really new, look at this photo from 1980
https://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=27082
I'm sure there has been a shift in what's considered 'winter conditions' ( see Robin Campbell's comment on Scottish Winter http://www.scottishwinter.com/?p=6561#comments )
But its not really new, look at this photo from 1980
https://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=27082
In reply to UKC News:
I was just pleased to read about some hard Winter climbing being done. Nothing seems to bring out the moaning on UKC quite like the Winter season, be it whingeing about conditions, whingeing about other people whingeing about conditions, yellow snow (ffs, really) and whatever absurd stuff we're going to get this week now that a thaw has set in. I have my popcorn at the ready.
Cracking photo, by the way.
I was just pleased to read about some hard Winter climbing being done. Nothing seems to bring out the moaning on UKC quite like the Winter season, be it whingeing about conditions, whingeing about other people whingeing about conditions, yellow snow (ffs, really) and whatever absurd stuff we're going to get this week now that a thaw has set in. I have my popcorn at the ready.
Cracking photo, by the way.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Naughty boy! Most the routes at newtyle are easier to climb with axes and poons.
Can you go far wrong following mcos advice?
https://www.mountaineering.scot/activities/mountaineering/winter-climbing/s...
There is judgement required when winter climbing on rock climbs though. I thought it was established that you don't climb agags grove in winter, as it would damage the route and leave scratches all over the place, though have seen a couple of ascents logged. If it's a 3 star rock route with no winter history, I wouldn't touch it.
> It seems to me that what counts as a winter ascent should be very simple: it is when it is easier to climb with crampons and axes than without. Any other definition just seems contrived to me.
Naughty boy! Most the routes at newtyle are easier to climb with axes and poons.
Can you go far wrong following mcos advice?
https://www.mountaineering.scot/activities/mountaineering/winter-climbing/s...
There is judgement required when winter climbing on rock climbs though. I thought it was established that you don't climb agags grove in winter, as it would damage the route and leave scratches all over the place, though have seen a couple of ascents logged. If it's a 3 star rock route with no winter history, I wouldn't touch it.
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In reply to Doug:
Campbell's views were out of date before he even thought them up.
> I'm sure there has been a shift in what's considered 'winter conditions' ( see Robin Campbell's comment on Scottish Winter http://www.scottishwinter.com/?p=6561#comments )
Campbell's views were out of date before he even thought them up.
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In reply to Deadeye:
For the record Agag's Groove had its first winter ascent in 1953....
If that's your personal preference then fine but the modern ethic of torquing and hooking up snowed-up rock routes ie. "if it's rimed it's ok" has been a mainstream aspect of Scottish winter climbing since the mid nineties in my personal experience, and most of the Northern corries V and VI trade routes were done well before then.
I doubt many of the thousands of ascents of Fallout corner or the Hoarmaster have had their picks in "snow, ice or turf at all times". And I find it hard to understand there are people with any length of involvement in Scotish winter climbing who don't realise this.
For the record Agag's Groove had its first winter ascent in 1953....
> For some of us, a winter climb means your picks are in snow, ice or turf at all times
If that's your personal preference then fine but the modern ethic of torquing and hooking up snowed-up rock routes ie. "if it's rimed it's ok" has been a mainstream aspect of Scottish winter climbing since the mid nineties in my personal experience, and most of the Northern corries V and VI trade routes were done well before then.
I doubt many of the thousands of ascents of Fallout corner or the Hoarmaster have had their picks in "snow, ice or turf at all times". And I find it hard to understand there are people with any length of involvement in Scotish winter climbing who don't realise this.
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In reply to jonnie3430:
The only thing that says about winter conditions is that it shouldn't be easier without axes (and presumably crampons?), so agrees with me.
Nor would I, but that's nothing to do with whether the route is in winter condition.
> Can you go far wrong following mcos advice?
The only thing that says about winter conditions is that it shouldn't be easier without axes (and presumably crampons?), so agrees with me.
> There is judgement required when winter climbing on rock climbs though. I thought it was established that you don't climb agags grove in winter, as it would damage the route and leave scratches all over the place, though have seen a couple of ascents logged. If it's a 3 star rock route with no winter history, I wouldn't touch it.
Nor would I, but that's nothing to do with whether the route is in winter condition.
Post edited at 11:12
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In reply to elliptic:
<sigh>
Yes, yes. I know all this.
Your preference is just as personal as mine, but different.
I've only pottered about since 1982, so Agag's pre-dates me, but folk have, for example, decided to lay off some 3* classic rock routes.
Anyway, the discussion has exactly the flavour I'm not interested in, so I'm out (and personally will be sticking mostly to gullies and falls)
> For the record Agag's Groove had its first winter ascent in 1953....
> If that's your personal preference then fine but the modern ethic of torquing and hooking up snowed-up rock routes ie. "if it's rimed it's ok" has been a mainstream aspect of Scottish winter climbing since the mid nineties in my personal experience, and most of the Northern corries V and VI trade routes were done well before then.
> I doubt many of the thousands of ascents of Fallout corner or the Hoarmaster have had their picks in "snow, ice or turf at all times". And I find it hard to understand there are people with any length of involvement in Scotish winter climbing who don't realise this.
<sigh>
Yes, yes. I know all this.
Your preference is just as personal as mine, but different.
I've only pottered about since 1982, so Agag's pre-dates me, but folk have, for example, decided to lay off some 3* classic rock routes.
Anyway, the discussion has exactly the flavour I'm not interested in, so I'm out (and personally will be sticking mostly to gullies and falls)
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In reply to Robert Durran:
There are also little bits about vegetation frozen, frozen conditions and snow covered, don't forget about them!
> The only thing that says about winter conditions is that it shouldn't be easier without axes (and presumably crampons?), so agrees with me.
There are also little bits about vegetation frozen, frozen conditions and snow covered, don't forget about them!
In reply to Deadeye:
thanks for your considered response Deadeye. I know how wearying it can feel to keep laying out what seems like a minority position. And this winteriness discussion is not helped by some of the unpleasantness that this issue seems to inspire. I will have a think about what you said and maybe write some more. I think all this is very complicated. Multiple (admittedly related ) issues tend to get too closely lumped together and obscure the arguments . Robert Durran is making a very similar point. For example, for me the winter climbing of rock routes and the winteriness of climbs are related, but separable; a rock climb might well be in what the current consensus regards as winter condition, but many people might still disapprove of it being climbed with tools. I think the matter of which rock routes "we" (and who the hell "we" are is complicated) climb with tools is ripe for debate along the lines of the Lakes white guide, which seems to have been useful, or am I being over optimistic?
For me personally it helps not to think about just one definition of winter condition. I am still working this out but I have at least three standards.
1) the conditions under which I would personally enjoy climbing the route with axes and crampons and would do so.
2) the conditions under which I would personally regard my climb as a "winter ascent". (stricter than 1)
3) the conditions under which I would publically claim a first ascent (with a winter grading) or first winter ascent (if an established route). Also applies to my view of other people doing so. Stricter than 2). Vigorous public debate to be expected and encouraged!
4) the (poor or bad) conditions under which I would personally disapprove of people climbing a certain route with axes and crampons and would try to influence them not to- mostly about it not being frozen. Here again public discussion might be useful, but otherwise we should just live and let live.
I do think it helps to recognise the arbitrariness and changeability of all this, there is no correct set of rules that exists somewhere. We are all just making them up as we go along. This is often highlighted when climbers from other countries visit Scotland in winter and have to be taught "the white rules". And when traditional "it must be white" UK winter climbers like me celebrate and envy hard dry tooling done on winter alpine north faces on the Pelerins and the Jorasses. And the consensus changes year by year as Deadeye points out. It's all a bit daft really. But at the same time it matters to a lot of us.
thanks for your considered response Deadeye. I know how wearying it can feel to keep laying out what seems like a minority position. And this winteriness discussion is not helped by some of the unpleasantness that this issue seems to inspire. I will have a think about what you said and maybe write some more. I think all this is very complicated. Multiple (admittedly related ) issues tend to get too closely lumped together and obscure the arguments . Robert Durran is making a very similar point. For example, for me the winter climbing of rock routes and the winteriness of climbs are related, but separable; a rock climb might well be in what the current consensus regards as winter condition, but many people might still disapprove of it being climbed with tools. I think the matter of which rock routes "we" (and who the hell "we" are is complicated) climb with tools is ripe for debate along the lines of the Lakes white guide, which seems to have been useful, or am I being over optimistic?
For me personally it helps not to think about just one definition of winter condition. I am still working this out but I have at least three standards.
1) the conditions under which I would personally enjoy climbing the route with axes and crampons and would do so.
2) the conditions under which I would personally regard my climb as a "winter ascent". (stricter than 1)
3) the conditions under which I would publically claim a first ascent (with a winter grading) or first winter ascent (if an established route). Also applies to my view of other people doing so. Stricter than 2). Vigorous public debate to be expected and encouraged!
4) the (poor or bad) conditions under which I would personally disapprove of people climbing a certain route with axes and crampons and would try to influence them not to- mostly about it not being frozen. Here again public discussion might be useful, but otherwise we should just live and let live.
I do think it helps to recognise the arbitrariness and changeability of all this, there is no correct set of rules that exists somewhere. We are all just making them up as we go along. This is often highlighted when climbers from other countries visit Scotland in winter and have to be taught "the white rules". And when traditional "it must be white" UK winter climbers like me celebrate and envy hard dry tooling done on winter alpine north faces on the Pelerins and the Jorasses. And the consensus changes year by year as Deadeye points out. It's all a bit daft really. But at the same time it matters to a lot of us.
Post edited at 12:25
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In reply to jonnie3430:
I would say that the bits about frozen vegetation and frozen conditions are about whether it is ethical to climb the route, not about whether it is in winter condition. And I disagree about the snow cover - what about ice (obviously!) or maybe verglas covering the whole route which might look completely black but would obviously be easier with tools and crampons and therefore in winter condition in my opinion.
I went to the Cobbler two weekends ago. Our first choice of route was clearly in winter condition but we declined to climb on ethical grounds because the turf was unfrozen (and it wouldn't have been much fun climbing mushy turf anyway). We instead climbed another route which had a more or less completely dry pitch and was therefore not in condition, but because there was no turf on it, I had no ethical qualms about doing so (though I'm obviously not claiming a proper winter ascent - but it was fun).
> There are also little bits about vegetation frozen, frozen conditions and snow covered, don't forget about them!
I would say that the bits about frozen vegetation and frozen conditions are about whether it is ethical to climb the route, not about whether it is in winter condition. And I disagree about the snow cover - what about ice (obviously!) or maybe verglas covering the whole route which might look completely black but would obviously be easier with tools and crampons and therefore in winter condition in my opinion.
I went to the Cobbler two weekends ago. Our first choice of route was clearly in winter condition but we declined to climb on ethical grounds because the turf was unfrozen (and it wouldn't have been much fun climbing mushy turf anyway). We instead climbed another route which had a more or less completely dry pitch and was therefore not in condition, but because there was no turf on it, I had no ethical qualms about doing so (though I'm obviously not claiming a proper winter ascent - but it was fun).
Post edited at 12:39
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In reply to Robert Durran:
If the turf isn't frozen is it in winter condition? OK, you can wade up deep firm snow and it doesn't matter if the turf isn't frozen if you're not standing on it directly or pulling on it. But of the Cobbler routes I've done turf is often vital so even if its covered in snow and frost, routes like that AREN'T in winter condition if the turf hasn't frozen are they?
> I would say that the bits about frozen vegetation and frozen conditions are about whether it is ethical to climb the route, not about whether it is in winter condition. And I disagree about the snow cover - what about ice (obviously!) or maybe verglas covering the whole route which might look completely black but would obviously be easier with tools and crampons and therefore in winter condition in my opinion.
> I went to the Cobbler two weekends ago. Our first choice of route was clearly in winter condition but we declined to climb on ethical grounds because the turf was unfrozen.
If the turf isn't frozen is it in winter condition? OK, you can wade up deep firm snow and it doesn't matter if the turf isn't frozen if you're not standing on it directly or pulling on it. But of the Cobbler routes I've done turf is often vital so even if its covered in snow and frost, routes like that AREN'T in winter condition if the turf hasn't frozen are they?
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In reply to planetmarshall:
I think that's a bit harsh, but I do think his comments were misdirected as Lost Arrow Winter Variations seems not to follow the summer line.
There is a debate to be had about climbing established summer lines in winter although I am quite sure that there is no one size fits all answer. Thinking that it shouldn't happen is a reasonable and statable position although it's not one I agree with.
Having said that I think winter only lines tend to be better because they are climbed in optimal conditions for success rather than being easier in summer. (Also a more interesting challenge for the first ascentionists)
> Campbell's views were out of date before he even thought them up.
I think that's a bit harsh, but I do think his comments were misdirected as Lost Arrow Winter Variations seems not to follow the summer line.
There is a debate to be had about climbing established summer lines in winter although I am quite sure that there is no one size fits all answer. Thinking that it shouldn't happen is a reasonable and statable position although it's not one I agree with.
Having said that I think winter only lines tend to be better because they are climbed in optimal conditions for success rather than being easier in summer. (Also a more interesting challenge for the first ascentionists)
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In reply to TobyA:
I consider unfrozen turf covered in snow to be in winter condition but consider it unethical to climb it. The two things are distinct.
> If its covered in snow and frost, routes like that AREN'T in winter condition if the turf hasn't frozen are they?
I consider unfrozen turf covered in snow to be in winter condition but consider it unethical to climb it. The two things are distinct.
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In reply to rogerwebb:
I don't dispute Robin's pedigree or that his opinion is well earned, but I do think that he's a long way behind the curve here - and the 'portable aid' remarks are a bit odd. In all honesty it's not an issue that's ever likely to come up in my own climbing as if I ever find myself on a X,10 then I'll be needing some actual aid, portable or otherwise.
> I think that's a bit harsh, but I do think his comments were misdirected as Lost Arrow Winter Variations seems not to follow the summer line.
> There is a debate to be had about climbing established summer lines in winter although I am quite sure that there is no one size fits all answer. Thinking that it shouldn't happen is a reasonable and statable position although it's not one I agree with.
> Having said that I think winter only lines tend to be better because they are climbed in optimal conditions for success rather than being easier in summer. (Also a more interesting challenge for the first ascentionists)
I don't dispute Robin's pedigree or that his opinion is well earned, but I do think that he's a long way behind the curve here - and the 'portable aid' remarks are a bit odd. In all honesty it's not an issue that's ever likely to come up in my own climbing as if I ever find myself on a X,10 then I'll be needing some actual aid, portable or otherwise.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Likewise!
Just to depress people it's 11c on Skye today.
Likewise!
Just to depress people it's 11c on Skye today.
Post edited at 14:06
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I think the nomenclature would be much simpler for newbies if they weren't.
> I consider unfrozen turf covered in snow to be in winter condition but consider it unethical to climb it. The two things are distinct.
I think the nomenclature would be much simpler for newbies if they weren't.
1
In reply to TobyA:
No, I think conflating the two things is the source of much of the confusion about winter conditions.
> I think the nomenclature would be much simpler for newbies if they weren't.
No, I think conflating the two things is the source of much of the confusion about winter conditions.
1
In reply to jonnie3430:
As said above, Agag's was done in winter by McInnes and Bonington long before anyone started to get their knickers in a twist about what constituted winter conditions. It's been done quite a few times, albeit probably in some questionable conditions, and the only reason it hasn't become a popular winter route is because it strips quickly and is hardly ever in any sort of recognisable winter condition. (FWIW, I've done it in proper winter conditions, albeit in questionable style.)
What about Minus 1 Direct, Centurion, The Needle, ad infinitum?
While I'm sympathetic to your view, to my mind if a classic rock route happens to form a good winter line (and Agag's does) then it's game on, for whoever has the vision, talent and cojones to do it first of course.
> I thought it was established that you don't climb agags grove in winter, as it would damage the route and leave scratches all over the place, though have seen a couple of ascents logged.
As said above, Agag's was done in winter by McInnes and Bonington long before anyone started to get their knickers in a twist about what constituted winter conditions. It's been done quite a few times, albeit probably in some questionable conditions, and the only reason it hasn't become a popular winter route is because it strips quickly and is hardly ever in any sort of recognisable winter condition. (FWIW, I've done it in proper winter conditions, albeit in questionable style.)
What about Minus 1 Direct, Centurion, The Needle, ad infinitum?
While I'm sympathetic to your view, to my mind if a classic rock route happens to form a good winter line (and Agag's does) then it's game on, for whoever has the vision, talent and cojones to do it first of course.
Post edited at 15:38
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In reply to Deadeye:
My apologies for my harsh reply to you earlier. It's not that I agree with you but at least you've had the good grace to come back and state your case to Malcolm's more considered response.
My apologies for my harsh reply to you earlier. It's not that I agree with you but at least you've had the good grace to come back and state your case to Malcolm's more considered response.
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In reply to Deadeye:
So you’re saying even if it’s rimed it’s dry tooling. Have you ever actually tried doing ‘modern’ mixed routes and pure dry tooling routes to be able to compare? I can assure you it’s not at all like dry tooling, even if it’s just snowed up rock, never mind something which is rimed up.
What you haven’t explained is why you oppose modern mixed climbing. Is it due to the damage to the rock or because you don’t recognise it as a valid climbing style?
So you’re saying even if it’s rimed it’s dry tooling. Have you ever actually tried doing ‘modern’ mixed routes and pure dry tooling routes to be able to compare? I can assure you it’s not at all like dry tooling, even if it’s just snowed up rock, never mind something which is rimed up.
What you haven’t explained is why you oppose modern mixed climbing. Is it due to the damage to the rock or because you don’t recognise it as a valid climbing style?
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In reply to jonnie3430:
I wasn’t aware that Agag’s Groove wasn’t supposed to be climbed in winter. It’s in Scottish Winter Climbs as a winter route after all! Don’t think we particularly damaged it when we did it but I guess there could have been some scratching. We thought it was VI 7 rather than VII 6 by the way. I bet it’s the VII 6 grade which puts a lot of people off, plus the awkward access and the fact it strips quickly. If it was in Lochain I bet it would get done loads.
I wasn’t aware that Agag’s Groove wasn’t supposed to be climbed in winter. It’s in Scottish Winter Climbs as a winter route after all! Don’t think we particularly damaged it when we did it but I guess there could have been some scratching. We thought it was VI 7 rather than VII 6 by the way. I bet it’s the VII 6 grade which puts a lot of people off, plus the awkward access and the fact it strips quickly. If it was in Lochain I bet it would get done loads.
Post edited at 21:08
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In reply to elliptic:
I bet one of the reasons there isn’t much turf on Savage Slit etc is rock climbers will have ‘cleaned’ the turf off back in the day...
I bet one of the reasons there isn’t much turf on Savage Slit etc is rock climbers will have ‘cleaned’ the turf off back in the day...
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In reply to Misha:
Wide cracks don’t have turf, in my experience.
If I remember correctly Savage Slit follows a wide crack.
> I bet one of the reasons there isn’t much turf on Savage Slit etc is rock climbers will have ‘cleaned’ the turf off back in the day...
Wide cracks don’t have turf, in my experience.
If I remember correctly Savage Slit follows a wide crack.
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In reply to Cog:
True but Fallout Corner isn’t a wide crack for example. I’ve no idea if these and other routes had more turf originally but it’s a fact that rock climbers used to do active gardening and a lot of our nice clean rock climbing crags used to be vegetated. I’m against climbing unfrozen turf of course but a sense of perspective is required for those who like the poster above is opposed to modern mixed climbing.
True but Fallout Corner isn’t a wide crack for example. I’ve no idea if these and other routes had more turf originally but it’s a fact that rock climbers used to do active gardening and a lot of our nice clean rock climbing crags used to be vegetated. I’m against climbing unfrozen turf of course but a sense of perspective is required for those who like the poster above is opposed to modern mixed climbing.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Pretty sure I'd find London Wall easier to climb in crampons and axes, whatever the conditions!
> It seems to me that what counts as a winter ascent should be very simple: it is when it is easier to climb with crampons and axes than without. Any other definition just seems contrived to me.
Pretty sure I'd find London Wall easier to climb in crampons and axes, whatever the conditions!
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In reply to Robert Durran:
A winter ethics opinion which invokes fun That's refreshing! From an outsiders point of view, this is about the most reasoned Scottish winter ethics argument I've ever read. Generally my eyes just glaze over, like when people start mixing their religious beliefs with their political views.
Edit: Guy and Greg's route looks like it was a lot of fun, in a slightly mental kind of way!
> I went to the Cobbler two weekends ago. Our first choice of route was clearly in winter condition but we declined to climb on ethical grounds because the turf was unfrozen (and it wouldn't have been much fun climbing mushy turf anyway). We instead climbed another route which had a more or less completely dry pitch and was therefore not in condition, but because there was no turf on it, I had no ethical qualms about doing so (though I'm obviously not claiming a proper winter ascent - but it was fun).
A winter ethics opinion which invokes fun That's refreshing! From an outsiders point of view, this is about the most reasoned Scottish winter ethics argument I've ever read. Generally my eyes just glaze over, like when people start mixing their religious beliefs with their political views.
Edit: Guy and Greg's route looks like it was a lot of fun, in a slightly mental kind of way!
Post edited at 15:29
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In reply to nb:
I am sure there is the odd route which is easier to dry tool than to climb with hands and feet (and I don't mean routes drilled specifically for dry tooling), but I think they are probably very much the exception and shouldn't invalidate the argument which is that sufficient snow and ice will generally make a route easier to climb with axes and crampons so that will become the natural, uncontrived way to climb it.
> Pretty sure I'd find London Wall easier to climb in crampons and axes, whatever the conditions!
I am sure there is the odd route which is easier to dry tool than to climb with hands and feet (and I don't mean routes drilled specifically for dry tooling), but I think they are probably very much the exception and shouldn't invalidate the argument which is that sufficient snow and ice will generally make a route easier to climb with axes and crampons so that will become the natural, uncontrived way to climb it.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
So climbing with axes and crampons is natural and uncontrived?
A bit like scuba diving maybe.
People shouldn't climb routes if they're going to get scratched horribly, that depends on the rock type mainly. And they shouldn't butcher the turf, which is mainly about temperature.
So climbing with axes and crampons is natural and uncontrived?
A bit like scuba diving maybe.
People shouldn't climb routes if they're going to get scratched horribly, that depends on the rock type mainly. And they shouldn't butcher the turf, which is mainly about temperature.
In reply to Removed User:
If you are going to climb rock coated in rime/snow/ice, it is more natural and less contrived to climb it with pointy bits of metal than with rubber boots and hands.
That is a separate debate. Do you think Savage Slit should be climbed in winter? And if so, why not any other classic rock climb? And if not, good luck to you telling people not to do so! I don't know what the answer is.
> So climbing with axes and crampons is natural and uncontrived?
If you are going to climb rock coated in rime/snow/ice, it is more natural and less contrived to climb it with pointy bits of metal than with rubber boots and hands.
> People shouldn't climb routes if they're going to get scratched horribly.
That is a separate debate. Do you think Savage Slit should be climbed in winter? And if so, why not any other classic rock climb? And if not, good luck to you telling people not to do so! I don't know what the answer is.
In reply to UKC News:
Been reading through the thread and intrigued, and I also acknowledge he achievements of some of the posters, or "expert witnesses".
So I pondered if over time Scottish Winter ethics will dilute or even shift to the point where this kind of discussion will seem irrelevant as so many of the old guard traditions will have gone with the old guard and replaced with inevitability. Entropic so to speak.
If so would it be better to clarify those ethics and promote them to newbies whose first winter experience is often with a more experienced and perhaps ethicly grounded climber or just accept the inevitable and let time be the regulator rather than the current cutting edge brigade, usually sponsored by companies with a vested interest in the growth of the sport, whether natural or promoted?
Be interested to hear thoughts, but perfectly happy to be assumed rhetorical.
Personally I have no problem judging conditions and style and applaud Greg and Guy's Ascent and I'm sure it will be on many a elite climber's list for a 2nd ascent and serves to remind the community of the cutting edge scene based in Scotland, a scene that follows the traditions before.
Well done!
Been reading through the thread and intrigued, and I also acknowledge he achievements of some of the posters, or "expert witnesses".
So I pondered if over time Scottish Winter ethics will dilute or even shift to the point where this kind of discussion will seem irrelevant as so many of the old guard traditions will have gone with the old guard and replaced with inevitability. Entropic so to speak.
If so would it be better to clarify those ethics and promote them to newbies whose first winter experience is often with a more experienced and perhaps ethicly grounded climber or just accept the inevitable and let time be the regulator rather than the current cutting edge brigade, usually sponsored by companies with a vested interest in the growth of the sport, whether natural or promoted?
Be interested to hear thoughts, but perfectly happy to be assumed rhetorical.
Personally I have no problem judging conditions and style and applaud Greg and Guy's Ascent and I'm sure it will be on many a elite climber's list for a 2nd ascent and serves to remind the community of the cutting edge scene based in Scotland, a scene that follows the traditions before.
Well done!
In reply to Misha:
No. I didn't say that. Read it again. This is why I said I wasn't going to comment further (doh!)
> So you’re saying even if it’s rimed it’s dry tooling.
No. I didn't say that. Read it again. This is why I said I wasn't going to comment further (doh!)
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In reply to Alex Slipchuk:
Ethics questions should always be borne in mind; it just seems strange that they've been brought up in relation to this particular route. If it was a climb done on black rock, in unfrozen conditions, or even involved 'scratching up' a summer classic then I could understand, but none of the above seem to fit well here (regarding the last point, a substantial portion of the route sounds like winter-only ground). As Robert says, they are also different issues with concerns ranging from not meeting the full challenge of the winter route (climbing black rock) to spoiling the route for other climbers, plus environmental concerns (turf removal).
Ethics questions should always be borne in mind; it just seems strange that they've been brought up in relation to this particular route. If it was a climb done on black rock, in unfrozen conditions, or even involved 'scratching up' a summer classic then I could understand, but none of the above seem to fit well here (regarding the last point, a substantial portion of the route sounds like winter-only ground). As Robert says, they are also different issues with concerns ranging from not meeting the full challenge of the winter route (climbing black rock) to spoiling the route for other climbers, plus environmental concerns (turf removal).
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In reply to Removed User:
Surely that argument can be applied to rock as well. Are you suggesting people should stop climbing all together as they're polishing the rock?
> People shouldn't climb routes if they're going to get scratched horribly, that depends on the rock type mainly. And they shouldn't butcher the turf, which is mainly about temperature.
Surely that argument can be applied to rock as well. Are you suggesting people should stop climbing all together as they're polishing the rock?
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In reply to Deadeye:
I’m sorry if I misunderstood but you wrote:
“I think the relentless (and joyful) drive for new routes inevitably ends with "if it's rimed it's ok", even if it's more or less dry tooling.”
So to me it seems you’re saying that a route which is rimed up can still be more or less dry tooling.
Whatever your view on mixed climbing, it is simply incorrect to claim that a route which is rimed up (which would typically also have snowed up cracks and footholds) is dry tooling. It’s a bit like comparing Gogarth South Stack and Horseshoe.
I’m sorry if I misunderstood but you wrote:
“I think the relentless (and joyful) drive for new routes inevitably ends with "if it's rimed it's ok", even if it's more or less dry tooling.”
So to me it seems you’re saying that a route which is rimed up can still be more or less dry tooling.
Whatever your view on mixed climbing, it is simply incorrect to claim that a route which is rimed up (which would typically also have snowed up cracks and footholds) is dry tooling. It’s a bit like comparing Gogarth South Stack and Horseshoe.
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In reply to Deadeye:
I think it's worth pointing out that this has never been a widely adhered-to ethic in Scottish winter climbing. Think of early achievements like Tower Ridge or NE Buttress, or the likes of Tower Face of the Comb or Scorpion in the middle of the last century.
> For some of us, a winter climb means your picks are in snow, ice or turf at all times.... and if that means there's never a route harder than say VI or VII, so be it.
I think it's worth pointing out that this has never been a widely adhered-to ethic in Scottish winter climbing. Think of early achievements like Tower Ridge or NE Buttress, or the likes of Tower Face of the Comb or Scorpion in the middle of the last century.
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