UKC

NEWS: Lucy Ellis Onsights Darkinbad the Brightdayler E5 6a

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 Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
Women and climbing are a popular topic down the UKClimbing.com forums. You can read discussions about Notable first ascents by women, Women...strength...campus boards and even the condescending, Why are women happy to be 2nd?

But apart from the big hitters like Lucy Creamer (website), Karin Magog (website), Silvia Fitzpatrick, Katherine Shirrmacher and Jude Spancken we don't hear much from the rank and file.

Here's one.


Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
 abarro81 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
bon effort
though on a point of pedantry, surely you wont hear much from the 'rank and file' since stuff we/they as the standard punters do wont be news..?
 AlisonC 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan:
Well done to Lucy!

However ... am I the only one who finds this sort of reporting rather condescending and even (dare I say it) chauvinistic? I just can't see that this is "news" - Darkinbad must have had numerous female ascents since the early 1990s.

I'm not against reporting hard climbs by women - perhaps as part of a wider review of what top women climbers are doing - but "Woman does E5" really should not warrant a headline.

Or maybe I am just in bad mood this morning
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC:

I'm more in agreement with Lucy Creamer.

"One British climber, Lucy Creamer has suggested that more achievements of women climbers are reported, not just the achievements of the "superwomen ", but what would be considered everyday ascents by men. The theory being that, whilst many climbers may not be able to achieve the dizzy heights of V15 and 5.14, they may be encouraged to put the extra effort in and gain the extra rewards, if they see more reports of women doing V7 and 5.12."
 robin mueller 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

> The photograph up and left by Darren Holman is of Lucy on White Slabs Blunt, an E3 6a at Wilston in Lancashire.

Ah, the great Wilston, majestic and imposing, yet mysteriously absent from the encyclopaedic clutches of The Brick...
 Tyler 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Nice one Lucy, pretty impressive since I didn't think she'd been getting out much.
 Tyler 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC:

> Darkinbad must have had numerous female ascents since the early 1990s.

It certainly should have but I bet it hasn't.
 Justin T 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC:

Not just "does" E5, "onsights" E5. World of difference, surely? Not sure what the difference in top-end grades is currently between men and women? A grade? Couple of grades? So you could look at this as comparable to an up-and-coming male climber onsighting E7 which is newsworthy dontcha think?
 abarro81 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
i think it could work the other way though: people see 'woman climbs e5' in news and think 'shit that must be really hard for her to get in the news for it, i'll never manage something like that' when in reality they might be able to get to that level fine. thinking its really hard might make them more likely to stick at a lower level rather than if the image is that e5 is not too difficult a target and lots of women will get to that level.
don't know her, but wont Ms Ellis find it wierd to have something like this reported if she's been doing it for 17 years?
(not meaning to have a go at your news reports too much though!)
 abarro81 15 Aug 2007
In reply to quadmyre: there's a big bunch of guys out there who've onsighted e7 but not had it reported.. think it's 'old hat' nowadays
(marktomlinson) 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: some chick onsights e5? how is that news?!
 abarro81 15 Aug 2007
In reply to (marktomlinson): mick's explained his reasoning above boyo..
 co1ps 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC: I agree with you Alison, I've climbed with many female climbers who regularly on-sight E5 and above, week in week out. I think it's a bit patronising.
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to co1ps:
> (In reply to AlisonC) I agree with you Alison, I've climbed with many female climbers who regularly on-sight E5 and above, week in week out.

Tell them to get in touch, or drop me an email with who.

mick@ukclimbing.com

Cheers,

Mick
Enoch Root 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

"The theory being that, whilst many climbers may not be able to achieve the dizzy heights of V15 and 5.14, they may be encouraged to be narrow minded training bores to gain the narcissistic buzz of 'coverage', if they see more reports of climbers doing V7 and 5.12."


Seriously. What are they climbing for and for whom do they climb?
Removed User 15 Aug 2007
In reply to abarro81:
"but wont Ms Ellis find it wierd to have something like this reported if she's been doing it for 17 years?"

A fair point but climbing Darkinbad was a great achievement for Lucy who, as Tyler quite rightly says, hasn't been getting out much lately. In fact, she last climbed e5 over 11 years ago, so this is something of a return to form. I'd also add the the style of the ascent is significant. A female on-sight ascent of a classic Extreme Rock route will be interesting news to some people, just not everyone.

By the way it's Dr Ellis


 Flatlander 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well done Lucy Ellis, very impressive return to forum hoping one day I'll achieve that level let alone return to it. Keep it up.
 AlisonC 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Tyler:
> It certainly should have but I bet it hasn't.

I suppose it depends what you mean by numerous but I'm betting at least 3 ascents by 1995 (Felicity, Lucy C, me - wouldn't surprise me if there had been others) - I guess that begs the old question of whether there have been many women regularly onsighting trad E5 in the last 10-12 years, and if not, why not.
 AlisonC 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm not talking about not reporting per se, but the way it's reported. I wouldn't have a problem with, for example, a headline saying "Great return to form for Lucy Ellis" with a little piece about the routes she's done recently - that's interesting, not patronising, and doesn't reduce her achievement to a grade.

It's the idea that a woman climbing E5 is headline news that I have a problem with. It might have been headline news in the 1980s - but it certainly wasn't by the 1990s, and it shouldn't be in 2007!
 Al Evans 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Rescued from the other news thread.
"UKClimbing.com: Oh my god, I can remember when White Slabs Bunt was hard and people were impressed when I did it, now its being used by girlies as training "
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC:

Headline News?

You are thinking old school news Alison. This news report is just one of many this week, both UK and World that paints a picture of the climbing community: first ascents, repeats, events, deaths, TV extravangas, climbing trade news, competitions, bouldering, alpine, sport, trad, BMC stuff, climbing wall stuff etc etc

All linked to the forums where you can have your say.

We aren't a print magazine where can't have your say. Every news report is open to comment......indeed in many cases further clarification and information just like you have done.

and thank you for that....

Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Good for LE; it must be news, of however parochial a variety, because I was interested to hear it.

In reply to Alison Cowley:

I guess this is connected with the general question of how many onsights Darkinbad or any other non-grit E5 used to get before 1995 and how many it gets now? It wouldn't surprise me if it had more male ascents pre-1995 than post, and the same for female ones.

In reply to thaty picture of WSB: blimey, has there been an earthquake at Wilton? Last time I went WSB was a slab and now it overhangs about 20 degrees. Nice shot, though.

jcm
 Ian Dunn 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC: First E5 onsighted by a woman in UK was Right Wall in 1984 by Rosie Andrews, (USA) Jill Lawrence (UK) did it first but she had seconded Pete Livesey on the first ascent 9 years before so it wasn't onsight. Next day Christine Gambert and Catherine Destivel from france also did it and Geraldine Taylor (UK) claimed an ascent of Positron.

When this standard has been climbed for 23 years its hardly news. E6 was onsighted by Louise Shepherd in 1985 with Lord of the Flies.

Whilst I agree that its good to report what's happening but there is no need to hype it up.
 abarro81 15 Aug 2007
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> I guess this is connected with the general question of how many onsights Darkinbad or any other non-grit E5 used to get before 1995 and how many it gets now? It wouldn't surprise me if it had more male ascents pre-1995 than post, and the same for female ones.

out of interest, was it easier to get good, regular trad partners 'back in the day'? (pre 95 counts as that to me as a relative youth) the hardest thing i find about half these sort of routes is convincing one of my bolt-clipping mates to go on a trad trip or finding one of my trad climbing partners free cos they're almost all older and have proper jobs etc..
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Ian Dunn:
> (In reply to AlisonC) First E5 onsighted by a woman in UK was Right Wall in 1984 by Rosie Andrews, (USA) Jill Lawrence (UK) did it first but she had seconded Pete Livesey on the first ascent 9 years before so it wasn't onsight. Next day Christine Gambert and Catherine Destivel from france also did it and Geraldine Taylor (UK) claimed an ascent of Positron.
>
> E6 was onsighted by Louise Shepherd in 1985 with Lord of the Flies.

Thanks Ian.
Ian Hill 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

could we have things seperated? You could keep the News section for what really IS news and then have another seperate magazine section for sub-items like this, you could call it Nationwide maybe...
 Tony Little 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC: I agree that Mick's "headline news" style may be a bit much for an ascent of an E5, but it is the sort of news that personally I'm interested in hearing about. Have things moved on significantly in the on-sight trad game since the late 80's/ early 90's? I get the impression that other than a handful of top climbers who are pushing it, there are far less people getting on the classic mid-extremes now than 20 years ago, a lot of them can be dirty or vegetated now.
I'd be far more interested to hear about onsight's of rarely repeated E6s and E7's i.e. the top end of the game most of us play, than headpointed E8's.
Anyway, well done Lucy!
 Tyler 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Ian Hill:

Good idea, not because I object to things being branded news but I object to all the small minded complainers who happily read megabytes of ill thought out crap by half-wits but then get on their high horses the instant item appears in news which isn't a new grade being broken.
 Enty 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Who's Lucy Ellis? Is she like 9 years old or something?


The Ent â„¢
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Ian Hill:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> could we have things seperated? You could keep the News section for what really IS news

According to several on this thread, it is news, according to others it isn't.

One thing I have learned whilst doing the news is just that. To some it is, to others it isn't.

One point to bare in mind is that this news item, like gear reviews and articles, is linked to a forum thread where you can quite often get even more info....and the usual bumf. Take the rough with the smooth and learn to filter yourself rather than being passive and fed.

I especially like Ian's and Alison's contribution to this news thread. Their info will certainly be news to some, albeit historical news.

I'm sure some women are interested in not only this news item, but the comments attached to it...some very informative....some bordering on...............misogyny
 datoon 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Tony Little: I've been watching this develop and quite enjoyed watching it.

I know that at Wilton anyway that back in the late 80's early 90's most of the mid-extremes had chalk on (I have been told by the old timers!?!), now it seems that people are just not doing these routes (such is the reason for the clean ups!?!).

This year has been something of a renaissance, there seems to be a lot more people down there and chalk on mid-extreme routes - or actually climbing them. Maybe I've just spent more time than ever there as well!?!

I personally think there are less people trad climbing in the mid-extremes, I wonder whether this is due to the climbing wall effect? So I'm not sure whether E6s/E7's are the top end that most of us play currently? I think the number has probably diminished since the late 90's? Although I would like to hear about these!?!

Well done Lucy.
 Richard Horn 15 Aug 2007
In reply to quadmyre:

E5 *is* an onsight grade surely... I am pretty sure I could headpoint E5 no problem and I am in punter territory.
 GrahamD 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

For those of us that live in climbing backwaters, its nice to have some context or background added to these 'news' stories so that the historical significance is made a bit clearer.

I don't mind them appearing per se, but the way this is written DOES give the impression that this might be a first or highly significant ascent.
 Steve Crowe Global Crag Moderator 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

A rank and file report of numerous female E5's can be found here.

http://www.karinmagog.co.uk/blog.htm

Karin is heading towards 100 routes of E5 and above all onsight.
 AlisonC 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Ian Dunn:
>First E5 onsighted by a woman in UK was Right Wall in 1984 by Rosie Andrews, (USA) Jill Lawrence (UK) did it first but she had seconded Pete Livesey on the first ascent 9 years before so it wasn't onsight. Next day Christine Gambert and Catherine Destivel from france also did it and Geraldine Taylor (UK) claimed an ascent of Positron.
>
...
>
> Whilst I agree that its good to report what's happening but there is no need to hype it up.

With 9 years between seconding and leading I think it's nit picking to say that Gill Lawrence wasn't the first

Incidentally as far as I'm aware the first British woman to regularly on-sight E5 was Felicity Butler (does anyone know if she's still climbing?) - and that was getting on for 20 years ago. But by the mid 1990s there was a good handful of women climbing E5, several of whom were doing so on a regular basis.

Anyway in reply to Mick - by all means report on it - in fact I would love to see more reporting of trad ascents of this type. But probably the climbers in question don't see what they're doing as newsworthy which is why no one hears about it. On other hand I still don't think "woman leads E5!" style headlines do anyone any favours I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree here, it may just be a cultural difference

I was intersted to read jcm's comment about more ascents of Darkinbad pre-1995 than post ... at the time I did it, it was very much a trade route for your average mid E-grade climber, practically everyone I climbed with had done it. It would be a shame if such a fantastic route was no longer being climbed regularly.
 BelleVedere 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Steve Crowe:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Karin is heading towards 100 routes of E5 and above all onsight.


Now - that would be a news story great news story: 100th E5 onsight

Not least beacuse UKC loves nothing more than making lists of climbs
CC 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It's information Mick, the way in which you report it slants the 'newsworthiness'. I agree with Alison that this could have been written up in a manner which was slightly less patronising. However I have a feeling that you did it in order to create an interesting debate?
 seankenny 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: What I found really impressive was that she lives in Epsom! Living in the SE and climbing hard, that really is a good effort in my opinion.
 Ian Dunn 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC: It might be nit-picking but accurate.
I think Jill Lawrence went on to do more E5's and also many routes in the States that would be E5 over here.

I think the idea of an info section rather than News would cover the interesting items that occur in the climbing world that aren't Newsworthy. The News Section should stay as thats what the Web does so much better than the magazines as it is up to date rather than 2 months behind.

hugedyno 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

NEWS: Lucy Ellis Onsights Darkinbad the Brightdayler E5 6a

"Paper....Paper.....Read All About It!"......

;-P
HD.
 SteveSBlake 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Ian Dunn:
> (In reply to AlisonC) It might be nit-picking but accurate.
> I think Jill Lawrence went on to do more E5's and also many routes in the States that would be E5 over here.
>
> I think the idea of an info section rather than News would cover the interesting items that occur in the climbing world that aren't Newsworthy. The News Section should stay as thats what the Web does so much better than the magazines as it is up to date rather than 2 months behind.

I met Jill a couple of years ago in the US, she was still on sighting mid 5.11 then.

Steve
 tobyfk 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC:

> at the time I did it, it was very much a trade route for your average mid E-grade climber, practically everyone I climbed with had done it.

Perhaps it helped us all back in the those days that the route still got E4 (rightfully?). Likewise staggered that an ascent by anyone in 2007 is considered newsworthy.

mattclimbs 15 Aug 2007
In reply to SteveSBlake: Congratulations Lucy on a fantastic send. I'm quite certain that this was something you have been wanting to do for many years. It's a shame when personal achievements can't be reconised and rewarded with out being ridiculed. Who cares, who sent what when!!!!!!
Anyhow heres also too the belayer who was fortunate enough to watch Lucy and for finding the crag in the first place!!!!
 Richard Horn 15 Aug 2007
In reply to mattclimbs:

I dont think anyone is saying this isnt an excellent acheivement (I would be stoked with an E5 onsight) and certainly doesnt deserve ridicule, just that as far as climbing acheivements go there is a certain debate on its newsworthiness.
Stalky 15 Aug 2007
In reply to mattclimbs: I don't think anyone's ridiculing her for her ascent, rather questioning whether it's 'news'.

I though part of the whole equality thing was that 'wimmin' wanted to be judged as equals and not put in a 'special' category.

There's no doubt about it that onsighting E5 is a fine effort but in the days of people onsighting 8c, E7+ and font 8b+ something that's 5 grades below the cutting edge isn't in my book 'news'.

Perhaps when I onsight E2, as I am to do in Spetember, this will get reported as fat 40 year old who doesn't climb much leads his first e2 after nearly 20 years of not climbing harder than VS. Err I don't think so, unless it's a really slow news day
 tobyfk 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Richard Horn:

> E5 *is* an onsight grade surely... I am pretty sure I could headpoint E5 no problem and I am in punter territory.

Actually headpointing Darkinbad might be newsworthy. Swinging around Pentire on abseil to organise a functional toprope on the main pitch (long and diagonal) would probably be a fair bit more physical and scary than leading the route ground-up!
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Steve Crowe:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> A rank and file report of numerous female E5's can be found here.
>
> http://www.karinmagog.co.uk/blog.htm
>
> Karin is heading towards 100 routes of E5 and above all onsight.

Including an E7 onsight, Deathwish.

Witkacy 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Wow, didn't realise the fairer sex had broken into the E grades. Just shows what a lady can be coaxed up given a sufficiently supportive male belay partner.
 Glyn Jones 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Witkacy: and a tight toprope
 rock waif 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Removed User:

Well done to Dr Ellis!

 Tyler 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Stalky:

> 5 grades below the cutting edge isn't in my book 'news'.

in the interests of pedantry can I just point out that onsisht of E5 is 3 grades below the current cutting edge and only 2 grades belwo the female cutting edge. Put like that it almost seems news worthy again!
 Tom Briggs 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Tony Little:
> I'd be far more interested to hear about onsight's of rarely repeated E6s and E7's i.e. the top end of the game most of us play, than headpointed E8's.

Spot on. Personally, I think this is an interesting news piece. So what that E5 was first on-sighted 23 years ago by a woman, that's interesting in itself.. the same probably goes for E7 with men? On-sight standards haven't developed much in the UK in the last 20 years, as you can't just train for it. Big numbers grab the headlines, but there are plenty of people who think the latest E8 headpoint doesn't deserve the attention it gets. Why do we need to differentiate between 'grass roots' news and 'what the professionals have been up to' news on an on-line publication.
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

I suppose we could always have news served up like this:

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/

Which is basically a big advertising website for the outdoor industry.
 Ian Dunn 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: What was suggested was to have two levels of news Eg Major Stuff such as Overshadow or solo of The Fish and then a secondary level of news where interesting items are reported but not hugely significant, which Lucy's ascent would fall (good effort by the way).

Personally i would have thought that, that would be an interesting option for a progressive website to examine.
 Tom Briggs 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Ian Dunn:
> (In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor) What was suggested was to have two levels of news Eg Major Stuff such as Overshadow or solo of The Fish and then a secondary level of news where interesting items are reported but not hugely significant, which Lucy's ascent would fall (good effort by the way).
>
> Personally i would have thought that, that would be an interesting option for a progressive website to examine.

Sure, I hear what you're saying. So where do you put the 2nd ascent (headpointed) of a Welsh E9. Or the 3rd ascent, which downgrades it to E8?! Maybe in both 'channels'?

 GrahamD 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

It doesn't need two categories, it needs context adding. You can't tell in this example whether a) its significant because its Darkinbad b) because its Lucy Ellis c) because its a woman d) because its onsight or e) non of these - its just interesting but probably not of historical significance.
 Ian Dunn 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: Second ascent of an E9 is still major news as it is cutting edge particularly if it could be in better style than the first, as would major things that affect the whole climbing scene eg closure of land through foot and mouth or similar. General info such as someone repeating a route that has had a number of ascents and is a couple of grades below the top standard would be in the secondary section. Both sections would be interesting and I am sure well read, it would probably also encourage a lot more reporting of secondary aspects of news that may be of interest to some groups. Eg young climbers ascents, womens ascents, old climbers ascents etc all interesting, but not cutting edge or major unless they happen to be either the best in the UK or the world.
 Ian McNeill 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Ian Dunn:
E6 was onsighted by Louise Shepherd in 1985 with Lord of the Flies.
>
Did Graeme Livingstone not second it in a pair of trainers on this day?


Oh very well done to Lucy - Is it not about time we did another route together ?
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Ian Dunn:

It depends how you define news Ian. It has radically changed over the last few years.

In old skool money, cutting edge E9, or maybe E11, is headline, as it still is.

In new skool, where we all have a voice and are all listening and participating (reading, listening, watching and importantly interacting and adding our own voices etc), my definition is broader.

I know how many people read the news, this forum and this website. I have a good idea of their wide range of interests, through our readership survey and following the forums.

Some couldn't give a monkey's about an E9, some of course could. Some are thrilled that a women did a trad E5, onsight, on a sea cliff, and love to hear about it (see above comments).

Anyway, sometimes reading about climbing in the UK, both online and in print, it is easy to get the impression that everyone climbs indoors and/or at Stanage.

Better to try and delve a little broader and deeper, IMAO.

GrahamD is right above, with more time and resources I should have added more context. But again, this forum being accessible to all, I think, the context is now fairly clear.

Mick
 abarro81 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
but surely if you start reporting every female e5 and male e6/7 o/s around then you'll end up with a majorly clogged news page? and if you dont then how do you choose which ones to report?

whilst some don't care about eg, a second ascent of trauma or pickford's new route at govans, i dont think people would dispute that it's news, whereas this i think many would..
i think the two parts might be a good idea, and it would give you free reign to report whatever you want without having to answer to us about whether it counts as news or not 10 times a day! eg, second ascent of trauma would've been main section but the subsequent ascents would be 'info' section etc.
(for the record, i found it interesting though not newsworthy - i guess this would be the point of the category mentioned above)
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

.....and if I do fkcu up I'm here for all and sundry to take potshots at..or to question my decision......you try to get Neil Pearsons at Climb mag or Bernard Newman at Climber mag to answer questions about the news or articles that they publish (make live)....
 AlisonC 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> Some are thrilled that a women did a trad E5, onsight, on a sea cliff, and love to hear about it (see above comments).

I am delighted to hear about women climbing hard routes, and yes, I do think that people want to hear about it. (Whether you have to have a separate news section for this is a matter of debate. Not sure where I stand on that one).

What I dispute is the aspect that you selected as being newsworthy - ie "woman climbs E5!" (I still think that this is dreadfully patronising). There are newsworthy aspects of Lucy's ascent (she's been climbing hard routes for many years, manages to do so despite - I assume from comments above - having a full-time job and living in the South East, and is having a good run of form) - but the fact that the route is E5 simply isn't one of them.
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC:

Darkinbad the Brightdayler is just as significant in the headline, especially if you have done the route, as the number that is attributed to its difficulty.

Anyway Toby thinks it is E4, Alan says soft touch, or low in the grade. Me, personally, I don't do grades, it's the experience that counts.

I enjoy highlighting the fact that Lucy was out there at Pentire running it out, placing gear, route finding, getting frightened and enjoying herself.

It inspires me and others too.

Now, we won't be running news items like that every day, but I think it is healthy to run them now and again....whatever the gender (the gender is an issue here and the grade).....just to give us a glimpse of what others are up to climbing at weekend as we, hopefully, are climbing too.

Mick
 Paz 15 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan)
> Well done to Lucy!
>
> However ... am I the only one who finds this sort of reporting rather condescending

Well done Alison on your ascent of around 10 years ago!
hugedyno 15 Aug 2007
In reply to hugedyno:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> NEWS: Lucy Ellis Onsights Darkinbad the Brightdayler E5 6a
>
> "Paper....Paper.....Read All About It!"......
>
> ;-P
> HD.

sorry, I meant "Extra....Extra....."


HD.

 tobyfk 15 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

> Anyway Toby thinks it is E4
No, I meant that it used to be given E4 in guidebooks. It was upgraded sometime in the nineties, I think. Whatever grade it is, it is certainly one full grade easier than Black Magic next door. They currently both get E5.

> Me, personally, I don't do grades, it's the experience that counts.
Yeah ... right. More likely you have never been to Pentire. True?
OP Michael Ryan 15 Aug 2007
In reply to tobyfk:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)


>you have never been to Pentire.

That may change soon. I'm quite inspired by reading about Lucy's ascent.

 UKB Shark 15 Aug 2007
In reply to tobyfk: Whatever grade it is, it is certainly one full grade easier than Black Magic next door. They currently both get E5.


Although I did both some time apart I thought the necky start and the top pitch made Darkinbad marginally more challenging. I attempted to top-rope Urcos Revenge after doing one of them - now that is a hard E5.

Not got anything to add on how newsworthy or otherwise it is for Lucy but she must be pleased as punch - routes such as Darkinbad are memorable experiences irrespective of the grade. Pentire is a strange and intimidating place despite the ease of access.
Tony Strutt 16 Aug 2007
In reply to co1ps: i agree, one of my climbing partners regularly onsights E5. last year she gave me a (*very*) tight rope on R'n'S special in the lakes, london wall at millstone and barbarossa at trevallen. she has been doing this for years, and did darkinbad in 2003. she won't be writing in with news of her ascents because she sees it as trivial and patronising. still, it got a debate going, which is more important.

 Morgan Woods 16 Aug 2007
In reply to Ian Dunn:
> (In reply to AlisonC) > When this standard has been climbed for 23 years its hardly news. E6 was onsighted by Louise Shepherd in 1985 with Lord of the Flies.


nothing quite like an Aussie bird showing you lot how it's done in yer own backyard.

but seriously that must have been quite an achievment and not something reported widely back home. Louise was quite well known in the Oz climbing media, but no one would know what the f*ck an E6 on the Cromlech is anyway.
 Nic 16 Aug 2007
In reply to Witkacy:

>>> Wow, didn't realise the fairer sex had broken into the E grades. Just shows what a lady can be coaxed up given a sufficiently supportive male belay partner.


Whatever next - a woman as Prime Minister?! Pschaw!
 tobyfk 16 Aug 2007
In reply to Simon Lee:

> Although I did both some time apart I thought the necky start and the top pitch made Darkinbad marginally more challenging. I attempted to top-rope Urcos Revenge after doing one of them - now that is a hard E5.
Well, for what it is worth, I once did Darkinbad (seconding as I'd led it a year previously) and Black Magic (lead) on the same day! I thought BM was vastly more serious. I have also watched two people fall off the top bit of Darkinbad with no bother whereas the one fall I am aware of from high on BM resulted in a helicopter evacuation and hospitalisation. I am very pleased I led the route before that incident or I wouldn't have gone near it.

> Not got anything to add on how newsworthy or otherwise it is for Lucy but she must be pleased as punch - routes such as Darkinbad are memorable experiences irrespective of the grade.
Absolutely agree and if Lucy is pleased to see herself headlined then that's great. If not, UKC will delete news items if you ask them nicely (or even grumpily).

> Pentire is a strange and intimidating place despite the ease of access.
Only for northerners!

 AlisonC 16 Aug 2007
In reply to tobyfk:
> I have also watched two people fall off the top bit of Darkinbad with no bother whereas the one fall I am aware of from high on BM resulted in a helicopter evacuation and hospitalisation.

That was me

I slipped off Black Magic just before the first belay (felt like a hold broke, as I was climbing very comfortably until suddenly airborne). For what it's worth I thought it slightly harder than Darkinbad, perhaps half a grade - slightly more technical, and a fair bit bolder. There are lots of easier E5s out there, but some harder ones too.
OP Michael Ryan 16 Aug 2007
In reply to tobyfk:

Read the text Toby!

"But apart from the big hitters like Lucy Creamer (website), Karin Magog (website), Silvia Fitzpatrick, Katherine Shirrmacher and Jude Spancken we don't hear much from the rank and file.

Here's one."


Here's one: an example....not a definitive list, although this thread has highlighted more hard female ascents, as I knew it would, and that is a good thing.

I was giving an example of a hard ascent, most we don't hear of, by a women. There's lots of them, and I am very sure that some people, both male and female, enjoy reading this type of news item.

I talked to Lucy, by phone, before I wrote the report.

In my endeavour to present a wider picture and story of the UK climbing community I will listen to criticism, and sometimes respond to it, but I will not be distracted from my task.

Sometimes this may include reports about obscure Irish boulders!

Mick
Removed User 16 Aug 2007
In reply to tobyfk:
"if Lucy is pleased to see herself headlined then that's great. If not, UKC will delete news items if you ask them nicely (or even grumpily)."

Lucy very rarely reads these forums. She has her reasons for that but I know she's pleased that Mick decided to report her ascent.

Perhaps the choice and style of headline has provoked more debate than the ascent itself, which is a bit of a shame but I get the feeling that what Mick was trying to say with his news article is that there are still women out there climbing hard trad, despite the picture painted in some recent threads. Many of the responses above seem to support this idea, so perhaps this has been a worthwhile news item afterall.

 UKB Shark 16 Aug 2007
In reply to tobyfk: Only for northerners!


Assumptions Toby - I am from Devon.
 Glyn Jones 16 Aug 2007
In reply to Simon Lee: northern enough for me!
 Paz 17 Aug 2007
In reply to AlisonC:

I thought your foot slipped? Would you be amazed to find out I heard of you on RT ages ago for doing DTB and falling off BM (from John Cox) or freaked out? I was well pleased you turned up `in the flesh' afterwards.
 AlisonC 17 Aug 2007
In reply to Paz:
> I thought your foot slipped?

Actually I don't know Paz. It *felt* like a hold broke (because I barndoored suddenly and unexpectedly when on reasonable holds), and I think it was a hand that came off first - the memory is quite distinct, more than 12 years later. However my climbing partner did the route at a later date, and said that there was no rock scar, so I have to assume that a hand or foot slipped.

> Would you be amazed to find out I heard of you on RT ages ago for doing DTB and falling off BM (from John Cox) or freaked out? I was well pleased you turned up `in the flesh' afterwards.

I would be amazed, as I have no idea who John Cox is ~blush~. (In my defence it's a long time since I moved in British climbing circles. The teenagers that I used to train with at Mile End and the Castle are probably in their 30s by now!).
Anonymous 17 Aug 2007
Well done to Lucy, it is a big achievement for anyone to climb it.
I have for the over 20 years been leading E5s along side several other women climbers who also lead harder. I have reacently led London Wall again, Goosey Ganda, Get Some in (Pembroke) and yesterday I led White Heat Pembroke at the age of 54 years.
E5 is still a good standard for anyone although people are leading much harder.
Geraldine
In reply to AlisonC:

Not that amazing, surely? I seem to remember the rags reporting the episode.

As to not knowing me, we have never been introduced, although I was an anonymous Mile End punter in the days when you were well known there.

jcm
 AlisonC 17 Aug 2007
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Ah, that John Cox . It's a long time ago, and you're right I don't remember being introduced (there are a lot of things I don't remember these days), but have heard your name a lot from a mutual climbing partner. Shame we weren't introduced at Mile End, as I suspect from your posts that you have similar climbing tastes to mine.
Russ Walling 22 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick, is that "THE" Lucy???? You know the one..... If so good on her! In all fairness though, lots of girls climb 5.7 here in the States.
 Mick Ward 22 Aug 2007
In reply to Russ Walling:

< coughs discreetly >

Mick
gelder 23 Aug 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I think it's a good effort onsighting E5 no matter what decade it was done. 8yrs ago When I was 17yrs old I was onsighting/Flashing E5/6 and headpointed E7 but this was never news, which to a young lad disalusioned me somewhat. I still think E5 onsight now is a dam fine effort as I believed it was then. E5 onsight represents the begining of Hard onsighting/flashing, not undermining anything below E5 and just because other females have onsighted lots of E5's does not stop this being news worthy.

Steve McClure has done many 8c/c+ and a good few 9a or harder, so is it now not news worthy for a person who repeats a solitary 8c/c+ which is not exactly cutting edge compared but is still desperate and in the realms of elite.

Good effort to anyone who onsights E5!

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