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NEW ARTICLE: Magic Wood: Bad Behaviour Or Just Bad Business?

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 UKC Articles 30 Sep 2013
How it should be, a friendly evening on the campsite around the fire pit, 3 kb

The campsite at Magic Wood is overflowing... with human waste. Is this a case of bad behaviour, or should more facilities be built to cope with a greater demand? 

UKC talk to campsite owner and climber Thomas Saluz to find out more about the complex and delicate situation at one of the word's most famous bouldering destinations...



Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5836
 FreshSlate 30 Sep 2013
In reply to UKC Articles: Another article about boulderers shitting all over the place.
 t_stork 30 Sep 2013
In reply to UKC Articles: Does the main photo have to be a big pile of s****? Is it really necessary?
 Mark Collins 30 Sep 2013
In reply to UKC Articles:

Damn shame, at least the flies are still doing their job though

I got some of these:
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Aid-Climbing/...
...after reading this:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1363
Unfortunately, Needle Sports seem to be the only UK stockist that I can find, and even then they don't seem to have them in all the time.

 Jon_Warner 30 Sep 2013
In reply to t_stork: +1... I know you're making a point but a sloppy pile of sh*t front page, really? really??
 dr_botnik 30 Sep 2013
In reply to UKC Articles: Has Thomas not heard of compost toilets? I'm sure these are practical particularly in woodland areas. I have seen several examples of these happily serving large volumes of people in campsites around the UK.
 psychomansam 01 Oct 2013
I'll ignore the daily mail reader above. This is obviously a problem caused by the minority, but then, when it comes to overflowing portaloos in the heat of summer, I think I'd rather crap in my own bed.

Perhaps the climbing community could help raise some funding for the new facilities? It could come in the form of donations, or of a community loan? Perhaps he could explain the site is non-profit-making and request donations for toilets on site as well as organising something online?
 martinph78 01 Oct 2013
In reply to psychomansam:
> Perhaps the climbing community could help raise some funding for the new facilities? It could come in the form of donations, or of a community loan? Perhaps he could explain the site is non-profit-making and request donations for toilets on site as well as organising something online?

Or perhaps he could increase his prices so that those who use the site pay for the facilities?

As for not using the loos because they smell... man-up!

 OliBangbala 01 Oct 2013
In reply to UKC Articles: it really isn't hard to bury your poop, why people think its acceptable to shit and just leave it there is beyond me..
 proze 01 Oct 2013
In reply to psychomansam:
> This is obviously a problem caused by the minority

People always say that. Said that about the Rocklands problems, too. Well, if it was only a small minority, it wouldn't be so much of a problem. So it's the majority. So boulderers must take responsibility as a group and stop saying "well it isn't me!".
 DaveR 01 Oct 2013
In reply to proze:

This isn't just boulderers, it's happening at all different kinds of climbing venues across Europe.
Sarah G 01 Oct 2013
In reply to UKC Articles:
Agree re the distatefulness of having a big pile of shit as the lead photo. Having said that, it is obvious to me (as a nurse) that the proponent who left that behind more than likely got caught short with a dodgy tummy.....

Sx
In reply to Sarah G:

It's meant to be distasteful. It's a distasteful state of affairs.

jcm
 sbc_10 01 Oct 2013
In reply to Sarah G:
> (In reply to UKC Articles)
> the proponent who left that behind more than likely got caught short with a dodgy tummy.....
>

....or ate one of Num Num's Vesta specials.

Sarah G 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Yeah, i got that, John. But this was overdone and more likely to turn people away from reading the actual article.

Sx
 ti_pin_man 02 Oct 2013
I've sadly not been climbing there, would love to and on my list but reading the article over and the comments it just seems obvious, the prices need to go up to pay for an investment in some permanent toilets. This just seems obvious, no? Work out the cost of the toilet needed and then add that to the price per person camping. If not it will give the people in the local community a good reason to shut it down on health grounds.
 Offwidth 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Sarah G:

Sometimes it need to be in your face to get the point over... hence I'm another -1. Its bloody disgusting climbers behave this way and its not just boulderers either as it happens at crags in europe too. Any toilet arguments dont explain rubbish left at sites either: some climbers are scum and the community shouldn't accept this.
 Offwidth 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Bodhi Climbing: Off season climbers are maybe a different bunch to the minority causeing the problem on season? Always seems to me like the popular times have the biggest proportions of human scum whatever the climbing venue.
 NottsRich 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Offwidth: Couldn't agree more.
 Arms Cliff 02 Oct 2013
In reply to ti_pin_man: If you increase the cost of the camping, then people will go back to dossing in the woods and camping on the road verge, which will lead to the closure of the climbing area. The rest of the woods in the area are used for hunting, and it's only through hard work of climbers back in the 90's that climbing is allowed in Magic Wood.
In reply to Arms Cliff: I'm sure it's not intentional (?) but there's definitely a tone of against the campsite dude in Jacks article, and even though the guy makes a little income out of the facilities clearly he's trying to protect this amazing area. Not the same scale but hope its not lost to climbers like Eagle Tor due to the climbing dirt bags
Bodhi Climbing 03 Oct 2013
In reply to ti_pin_man: The costs for the whole project with proper toilets, showers, sink, sewage plant etc. is CHF 750'000.- (£ 516'000). The plans and the money for it is existingfd, thats not the problem. Major investments have to run through a long process and end up at the municipal assembly. Decision gonna be made by voting from all the inhabitants. The municipal council of 5 people stand more or less behind the project, but most of the inhabitants are distempered against climbers due the mentioned problems in the article. We trying now to make it step by step, talking about smaller amounts of money to invest each time. For next year we hope to get fresh drinking water and sinks. Would solve the problem with the filthy fontaine. Step two, toilets, showers and sewage plant as it has to come in a package...
Raising the price of the campground until its not fully equipped was never a questions as we know and feel with the climbing scene. Like mentioned in other comments this will more likely bring old problems back up.
 Paul B 06 Oct 2013
In reply to UKC Articles:

Whilst I sympathise with the plight of every Euro venue afflicted by people sh*tting absolutely everywhere I can't help but feel that I'd be more sympathetic to the pleas in the article if the camp site didn't feel like a ghetto (the climbers treated as they were in such) and the owners/managers practice what they preach.

Whilst I stayed there the owners girlfriend had a dog which they were happy to let run around where people pitch their tents, eat, cook etc. p*ssing wherever it pleased. How do you expect others to respect an area if you don't do so yourself?

At the time we were on a Euro tour and trying to avoid camping whenever possible, we parked up in Magic Wood right up at the reservoir on a Fri evening. The campsite owner drove up to tell us that we couldn't be there. Fair enough we said but I've drunk a litre of Sangria so I'm not driving down to the camping now, I'll be there tomorrow. He returned less than an hour later and demanded the same and then left a note on my window the next day "stay at the camping, or else".

We didn't stay long.
davo 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Paul B:

I agree with this. I did a similar euro trip in a van about 4 years ago and went to Magic Wood. The camp site was not great and really didn't offer much to anyone in a van. As has been said it felt a bit like a ghetto, the toilets (portaloos) were grim and there were no showers. All in all I really couldn't see any benefits in staying to me. So I didn't stay there and instead stopped up at the reservoir.

Whereas when I went to Ceuse despite being in a van I paid to stay at the camp site as the facilities were good. Nice atmosphere, good showers and toilets etc.

Obviously crapping everywhere and leaving it out in the open is not acceptable but when the campsite is poorly set up it just encourages this kind of thing.

Dave
 TobyA 06 Oct 2013
In reply to davo:
> So I didn't stay there and instead stopped up at the reservoir.

Doesn't it say somewhere though that people either roadside camping or wild camping were the original problem that led to the stop-gap campsite being opened and why it is so cheap?
 Paul B 06 Oct 2013
In reply to UKC Articles:
On a more constructive note, how about composting toilets?

I've used these all around the US and in many parts of France. OK, putting them at the entrance to the climbing areas might not look great but it'll do the job. They'd likely smell a whole load less than the portaloos too.
 wintertree 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Paul B:
> (In reply to UKC Articles)
> On a more constructive note, how about composting toilets?
>
> I've used these all around the US and in many parts of France. OK, putting them at the entrance to the climbing areas might not look great but it'll do the job. They'd likely smell a whole load less than the portaloos too.

We recently came back from a few weeks in the US. The composting toilets were great - we'd go to some minor attraction to find the carparki full off old camper vans and dreadlocked youth - a sure fire sign that there would be shit everywhere if we were in France/Sardinia/Spain/etc etc. however, everybody uses the composting toilets. Lovely. The new ones with a solar powered fan drawing air in through the seats are particularly nice and odour free..

My personal feeling is they might not work on the continent, because someone who happily shits near a crag or in an interesting cave just doesn't have the necessary attitude, you can tell this because the inside of the composting toilets in the states are often far nicer than the insides of plumbed in ones on the continent, Shitting everywhere is just another sign that people don't give a crap about the amenities they enjoy.
 TobyA 06 Oct 2013
In reply to wintertree:

> My personal feeling is they might not work on the continent,

They are the norm in the Nordic region and seem to work rather well. Found them near various climbing areas on a recent trip to Norway and they are in all the national parks and recreation areas in Finland. Seen them in Sweden too.

Do the US ones have the polystyrene loo seats? They're the best! It can be -20 and it still feel warm on your cheeks when you sit down.
 Paul B 06 Oct 2013
In reply to TobyA: No, they don't.

They're the norm at Austrian sport-climbing venues too.
 Dan Moore 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Paul B: The current owner's 'wife', who is ALSO the owner, has never owned a dog in her life ... and they tell everyone with animals that if they misbehave they must be kept on a leash, other campers are encouraged to report any nuisances. Since you were wild camping anyway despite the ridiculously low price ... (esp in switzerland - the taxes on that tiny campsite will be around CHF18,000 for the year! - that's before the tax they have to pay on any income!)... and laws against it, and reluctanlty stayed at the campsite after being 'told off' for what if you read any history about magic wood you know to be wrong, of course your going to have a moan.
 Dan Moore 06 Oct 2013
In reply to TobyA: polystyrene seat! That sounds lovely gonna have to get me one of those, remember freezing my butt off sitting in a stone shack in the peaks on a frozen plastic seat...
 Paul B 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Dan Moore:
The (small) dog in question was certainly linked to the guy who drove around (white fabia estate?) to reprimand us, and the note was left on a piece of paper with Bodhi climbing written on it. Maybe I got the relationship wrong (and if so I apologise for that) but the point still stands.

I was happy to move down the road if, as he said camping even that far away was an access issue (beyond Switzerland having rules against it, and yes I'm aware of the history), I wasn't pleased to be asked more than once to drive when I wasn't in a fit state and even less so when we complied and ended up with an idiotic note on our van the next day. Take that as you will, a moan if you like but its context.

The reason I didn't initially simply park at the campsite in this instance was based on far more than simply trying to be cheap. I also thought the distance we drove would be enough (clearly not).

You're required to fill in your details to be passed to the local police (always welcoming) and if you're in a van you park up and 'camp' in the parking for the rest of the site. This doesn't work. There was also strictly no potable water etc.

At this point the over the road camping wasn't allowed.

Netthida Saluz 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Paul B:

The dog in mentioned, either big or small are of course related to us.... we live in the same world but we never own one.

About the note or some may call it "childish note", it is preserve for immature behaviour only, let see your comments above :

1. you said you weren't happy to be ask more than once, I was not happy to had to said it twice either, and why should it be if you are mature?

2. you also said you know the rules of no wild camping, but still you did wild-camping and also got too drunk....if it wasn't us, it would be a police with a crane and few more bills for you....why didn't you think you lucky it was just us???

Netthida Saluz 06 Oct 2013
In reply to UKC Articles:

Thank you any one who understand our situation and help to make it better for all.

Just to be clear once more that we may run these businesses but we are NOT the owner of the place. So no matter how much we want to do a better thing to Magic Wood, it won't be able so without the local communities.

And since we are standing between climber and local, we need support and understanding from both sides to make thing works.

If local still see climbers as outdoor freak.....
If climber still excuse any reason to shit all over and wild camping.....

Then the good works we and other good climbers have done the past years will be in vain.
 Paul B 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Netthida Saluz:

1) Look, we lived in a van for 6 months touring (as many do), and yes, I enjoy freely drinking red-wine amongst other things whilst doing so. Its hardly irresponsible binge drinking culture where you'd find me vomiting uncontrollably out of the passenger window, after all I was there to climb.

I weigh an absurdly small amount and thus I'm incredibly wary (especially in certain European countries) about the effect that has on my blood alcohol levels.

You seriously think that its immature behaviour to say that we wouldn't get behind the wheel that night, right then, as we didn't feel competent or happy to do so? Our first encounter that night seemed completely reasonable which was why I was a bit frustrated by the second.

Our answer WAS pretty clear the first time "sorry, we'll move in the morning", there was zero need to come back 1 hour later.

...btw is leaving a childish note the height of maturity?

...and this dog (that never existed before) didn't do as I say?

2. Yes and I explained our reasoning on that above, I even admitted it was wrong (to reiterate, we believed the distance we drove was sufficient [at that time]).

Why don't you comment on using pit/drop/composting toilets as a solution?
 andrewmc 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Paul B:

So you were sleeping in your van on a roadside, which I guess is illegal in Switzerland, and which increases the chance that climbing will be permanently banned from Magic Wood and/or impinge on the efforts to gain permission for proper long-term facilities...

(presumably they aren't commenting on pit/drop/composting toilets since they are currently attempting to arrange 'proper' toilets and are only held up by bureaucracy and politics)
Bodhi Climbing 07 Oct 2013
In reply to andrewmcleod: thanks andrew
 Paul B 07 Oct 2013
In reply to andrewmcleod:

Its also illegal to stay within Yosemite national park for more than 7 days between May the 1st and Sept the 1st, do you care to slap my wrists for that too?

I've posted my reasoning above clearly, saying that I'm happy to admit that I was wrong. It doesn't remove the comments I've made about the camping and the reasons as to why I think it fails (even with a healthy dose of character assassination attached).

The posts above allude to 'proper' toilet systems costing quite a lot of money and being held up by bureaucracy. Composting toilets (not only suggested by me) are an answer to this, used throughout the USA (and Canada) and many European climbing venues (I've found these areas impeccably clean).

Has it been looked into? Its a simple question. There are other benefits too but I dare't go into them here.


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