UKC

NEWS: Mt Blanc Minimum Equipment By-Law Introduced

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 UKC/UKH News 18 Aug 2017
The Mayor of St Gervais and councillor for the Mont-Blanc area, Jean-Marc Peillex, has signed an arrêté municipale (local by-law) enforcing a minimum equipment and clothing list to be adhered to by anyone attempting the mountain via its popular Goûter Route, with immediate effect.

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3
 Lil_Pete 18 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Guess that means Killian Jornet won't be going up the Gouter route anytime soon then!
 Dell 18 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

GoreTex is a necessity?
No fleece or thermal layer?

M&M's? Spare Y-Fronts? Emergency fishing kit?
 Doug 18 Aug 2017
This guy has a long history of often dubious announcements about Mt Blanc, is this just another self publicity stunt ?

 Lil_Pete 18 Aug 2017
In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Hahahaha, what a perfect response!!! That's made my day Natalie!
Lusk 18 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Yeah, whatever, Jean-Marc.

< shrugs shoulders and wanders off to the téléphérique station >
 99ster 18 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Ski mask...?
 galpinos 18 Aug 2017
In reply to 99ster:

> Ski mask...?

Goggles, just a bad translation. I'm pretty sure the waterproof jacket and warm fleece/thermal jacket were listed as separate items.
 Offwidth 18 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Some overview information on deaths and accidents there... pretty horrific to be honest.

https://www.petzl.com/fondation/projets/accidents-couloir-gouter?language=e...
 henwardian 18 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

The Gouter couloir is pretty short, I'm sure they could just dig a tunnel under it to keep everyone safe on the way up.
3
 humptydumpty 18 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

> GPS or altimeter

Is it weird to own neither of these? Can't you just follow the person in front?
 tistimetogo 18 Aug 2017
In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Surprised that he responded like that. This springs to mind.

https://www.chamonix.net/english/news/PGHM-Chamonix-Rescue-Kilian-Jornet

I'm aware of the difference between the Frendo and the Gouter. But if I'd been previously caught out carrying next to nothing I'd probably just keep quiet.
2
 mrphilipoldham 18 Aug 2017
In reply to humptydumpty:

That's what I did.
 RR 18 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Is it a law without a penalty?
In reply to RR:

Violating the by-law will result in a 'first class fine' apparently. They have added more information to the press release and have increased the items required. I've just updated the news piece.
 MG 18 Aug 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

Interesting study, particular the comments on humidity. But nothing on the list will help in the couloir!
 Robert Durran 18 Aug 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

> Some overview information on deaths and accidents there... pretty horrific to be honest.


I wonder how dangerous the couloir actually is statistically in terms of accidents per person crossing compared with lots of other dodgy spots on other less frequented routes. ie is it a major issue for an individual climber or just for the mayor? (like a road crossing outside a school which is no more dangerous than any other road crossing for an individual pupil but a major issue for the headteacher)
 summo 18 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Gaiters , they'll make a difference!

The one thing missing on the list would be some skills, the most critical factor, but impossible to quantify or police, so they'll just ignore them.
 summo 18 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

As you know the mont blanc range has loads of gully lines or faces which are prone to rock fall, especially in the afternoon. As you say, this one just sees a lot of traffic so incidents are more frequent.
In reply to Lil_Pete:

> Guess that means Killian Jornet won't be going up the Gouter route anytime soon then!

Good luck catching him to give him his fine.
Lusk 18 Aug 2017
In reply to summo:

> The one thing missing on the list would be some skills, the most critical factor, but impossible to quantify or police, so they'll just ignore them.

That'll be the implied requirement for hiring Cham guides, Jean-Marc wouldn't be that gauche to actually put it on a common list!
 Doug 19 Aug 2017
In reply to Lusk:

Surely not guides from Chamonix, I would have thought that only guides from St Gervais will be acceptable
 Pete_Frost 19 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:
I've never carried so much kit up the Blanc! Whoever put this list together is living in the 1980's.

Maybe a compulsory rescue bond and permit system for anyone ascending the voie normale would have been a more intelligent response. This system is common practice in many countries for their higher peaks, and the US National Park Service require wilderness permits for many, if not most of their parks, so why not institute a similar system for the Gouter route? Some people will always evade the regulation, but if caught by the PGHM in ascent, without a permit they could be prosecuted. Alpinists in descent would not be required to display a permit, so that would remove any issues for those who climb by other routes (Central Pillar etc...).
 Robert Durran 19 Aug 2017
In reply to Pete_Frost:

> I've never carried so much kit up the Blanc! Whoever put this list together is living in the 1980's.

Couldn't be 1980's with a GPS........
Incidentally, what would you leave behind? The list actually seems pretty minimalist on clothing especially to me, but I wouldn't carry ski goggles or, nowadays, gaiters and would maybe leave out the helmet for the Gouter (despite the couloir!).

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

You'd think they'd be able to find someone in StG or Cham who can speak English fluently to proof read the edict.

Those borrowing the path must promise to bring it back...
 profitofdoom 19 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Coincidentally, I have it on good authority that the BMC is bringing out a compulsory kit list for Stanage next week. Wardens will be enforcing it, with a 100-quid fine for violators:
1. Beanie
2. Brightly-colored chalk bag (no grey, black)
3. GPS
4. One rope per person
5. Tricounis
6. Three-day survival kit
7. 24 hours survival rations per person
 Offwidth 19 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm not supporting what the Mayor has done here but the crossing of that couloir by the masses has always bothered me in the same way some commerial expeditions operate on Everest do. The very real risks need to be understood and accepted by those facing them and I simply don't believe that happens. That the mayor should be concerned about this in local political terms seems very reasonable to me.... its a balance as the regular deaths and accidents are terrible but many locals rely on those attepting to climb Mt Blanc to make money. Many of these tourist ascents might be on Elbrus anyway if they were better informed.... the correct European high point and a safer climb.
 emily roo 19 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

As we walked down past the French climber whose death directly triggered this by-law, I can see why the mayor has decided to act. The now deceased climber did look particularly out of place in his 'fast and light' equipment moving particularly slowly uphill towards the Vallot at midday... There were plenty of other people still ascending and descending the route, it's sad to realise that none of these people saw his fall and/or phoned the PGHM on the day.

I will be fascinated to see how the authorities plan to enforce these rules and whether they actually bother checking bags or just look out for fell running shoes and ice axes on bags... A hefty fine for failing to bring liner gloves would be pretty irritating!!
1
Removed User 20 Aug 2017
In reply to profitofdoom:

Little bag mushrooms in case you get benighted in the caves?
 Tim Davies 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Removed User:

Ignoring the poor translation, and applying a degree of common sense, is there anything on the list you wouldn't take?
Similar advice is given when snowdon is covered in snow and claims a few victims in winter (typically Feb half term), but in France the local mayor has different legal powers.
I'm surprised this has not happened sooner.
 john arran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Tim Davies:

> Ignoring the poor translation, and applying a degree of common sense, is there anything on the list you wouldn't take?

If I was anywhere near as capable as Kílian and the forecast was very stable I'd be taking very few of the items on that list - and for good reason since otherwise I'd be able to achieve only a fraction of the goals I'd be most interested in being there for. It's taking a lowest common denominator approach to mountaineering, which is understandable from the viewpoint of corporate responsibility - like in maintaining road safety by requiring licenses, insurance, MOT, etc., but which is completely contrary to the spirit of personal responsibility and individual judgement that has always been at the heart of top level mountaineering.

That's not to say I don't think the vast majority of people on Mont Blanc should have pretty much everything on the list. Just that regulating mountaineering by legal means is inappropriate and wrong.
1
 Robert Durran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:
> If I was anywhere near as capable as Kílian and the forecast was very stable I'd be taking very few of the items................ completely contrary to the spirit of personal responsibility and individual judgement that has always been at the heart of top level mountaineering.

Yes, but the Gouter circus is far removed from top level mountaineering. The measures are hardly draconian and the list seems pretty much like common sense to me. I think the situation could reasonably be seen as a one off special case which in no way effects any serious alpinists but might protect a few inexperienced peak baggers from themselves - even if the rules are not strictly policed, the publicity of the list might mean more people do go sensibly equipped.
Post edited at 09:18
3
 Goucho 20 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I think it's a sad state of afairs when a list like this has to be issued, but with more and more people 'bucket listing' stuff like Mont Blanc, it's possibly inevitable that sooner or later the spectre of increased regulations will rear its head.

Personally, I think the list is the bare minimum for a resonably experienced person (ski mask and goggles might be slight overkill), and if it is aimed at the less experienced (which it probably is), then I don't think it is comprehensive enough - where's liquid, food (I've seen a few people over the years having difficulties because of dehydration and poor fuelling) first aid kit, spare gloves and hat?

As far as clothing, It's probably the bare minimum you'd take for a walk up Snowdon in winter.

Be interesting to see how they're going to enforce it, but maybe just the threat of enforcement might be enough for people to apply the most crucial item missing from the list - common sense.
1
 Robert Durran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Goucho

> As far as clothing, It's probably the bare minimum you'd take for a walk up Snowdon in winter.

Indeed. I was wearing more in the Scottish hills yesterday and was pretty uncomfortable when not actually moving.

 john arran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

So then what do you do when somebody says "I have everything I need, otherwise they would have put it on the list"? Do you then take an even more lowest common denominator approach and spoonfeed everyone with everything needed for every eventuality? At what point do you accept that, inevitably, people need to be individually aware of what they're undertaking and be 'suitably' equipped for it, depending on many things such as terrain, conditions, weather, experience and competence? The law is a blunt tool and an inappropriate replacement for education.
2
 Goucho 20 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:

> So then what do you do when somebody says "I have everything I need, otherwise they would have put it on the list"? Do you then take an even more lowest common denominator approach and spoonfeed everyone with everything needed for every eventuality? At what point do you accept that, inevitably, people need to be individually aware of what they're undertaking and be 'suitably' equipped for it, depending on many things such as terrain, conditions, weather, experience and competence? The law is a blunt tool and an inappropriate replacement for education.

Sometimes, blunt tools can be very effective
1
 Robert Durran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:

> The law is a blunt tool and an inappropriate replacement for education.

I get what you are saying, but presumably education isn't working in the special case of punters on the Gouter. A publicised list is never going to be ideal, but might at least mean more people go adequately equipped. I imagine it has been prompted by people going grossly ill equipped rather than quibbles over exactly how many layers of clothing are appropriate.
 john arran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I get what you are saying, but presumably education isn't working in the special case of punters on the Gouter.

Then improve the education in the special case of punters on the Gouter!
3
 Robert Durran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:

> Then improve the education in the special case of punters on the Gouter!

That may well be happening with the publicity surrounding this blunt tool!
 MG 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

There was an "ambassador" of of Gervais in a little hut near the Tete Rousse last month handing out MB advice. Cheerful chap but I suspect he had a firmer side if needed. Also effective, I imagine, at preventing people getting in to trouble and general education. I think having a list he can point to or hand to people clearly poorly equipped will help him.
 john arran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

So would you advocate someone like Kílian should selectively ignore the law when he's convinced it's wrong? Or maybe stay away completely to be properly law abiding? Or perhaps the gendarmes should be encouraged to be selective in how they enforce this new law? One law for some and a different one for others? How would you reconcile your pragmatic approach with respect for the rule of law?

Like I said, the law is an inappropriate tool (even if it seems usefully blunt at times )
3
 beefy_legacy 20 Aug 2017
In reply to tistimetogo:

That "climbers" is brutal.
 Robert Durran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:
> So would you advocate someone like Kílian should selectively ignore the law when he's convinced it's wrong? Or maybe stay away completely to be properly law abiding?

I really don't care. The sideshow of speed stunts on the Gouter has as little to do with mainstream mountaineering as the queue of summit ticking punters. There are plenty other places he can go.

Short of truly draconian rules, there are always going to be a handful of mobbed problem honeypots in the mountains where special measures might become necessary. I don't think we need worry about such measures undermining mountaineering in general.
Post edited at 10:20
3
 john arran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

Nice copout.
13
 jon 20 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Worth reading this (apologies if it's already been linked): http://www.lyoncapitale.fr/Journal/Lyon/Sport/Trail-Running/Trailer-mort-su...
 Robert Durran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:

> Nice copout.

Not a copout. I just think he should accept the situation and the reasons for it.
1
 john arran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Not a copout. I just think he should accept the situation and the reasons for it.

You're welcome to that opinion, of course. For me it's an unjustified and unwarranted legal intrusion into the practices and principles of mountaineering, where education should be improved instead - which shouldn't be too hard to target if we really are just talking about 'honeypot' routes. The risk of slippery slopes is not just literal!

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
 john arran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I really don't care. The sideshow of speed stunts on the Gouter has as little to do with mainstream mountaineering as the queue of summit ticking punters. There are plenty other places he can go.

First they came for the trail runners ...

1
 Rich W Parker 20 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:

I agree, persuasion not regulation is preferable, and yes I know this has been tried, but try something else!
 Mark Haward 20 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I agree that law enforcement is not the way to go, education would be better.

How about:
1) Free weekly workshops in St Gervais, Chamonix, Courmayeur, Argentiere outlining the skills, routes, equipment and updated conditions for the Gouter and Trois Monts routes.
2) Large noticeboards by the Nid D'Aigle station, the Tete Rousse, in St Gervais, Chamonix, Courmayeur, Argentiere outlining some of the above.
3) Posters and leaflets put in the campsites and the uplift stations.
4) Leaflets issued electronically to anyone who makes a booking at the Tete Rousse or Gouter huts.
5) A large noticeboard a little before the Grand Couloir highlighting the risks, statistics, and giving crossing and equipment advice.

Personally, I would prefer there to be no fixed notices on the actual routes but having witnessed so many ill equipped people making, in my opinion, poor judgements and seemingly with few mountaineering skills probably due to inadequate knowledge putting themselves and others in danger the current status quo is not sufficient.
 Damo 20 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:

> ... if we really are just talking about 'honeypot' routes. The risk of slippery slopes is not just literal!

> I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

And I'll both agree and disagree with you both. Education is too hard and takes too long for something like this - you need a more immediate and simpler solution. And yes, I know, such laws are against the spirit of mountaineering etc etc

OTOH, while I'm inclined to argue this is a special case for a very popular mountain in a very popular place, there is evidence of a related slippery slope. In Nepal, recent changes to regulation are essentially modified versions of the Everest system - mandatory guides etc - and are out of place on lower peaks, and for non-commercial expeditions.

The style of 'climbing' on Everest has leeched out onto other peaks - Sherpa fixed ropes, commercial teams, helicopters - and just keeps spreading. It's much simpler for bureaucrats to have just one system they can apply to everything - tick the box, receive the funds, issue the stamp - than to be continually making judgements on individual situations.

As for the KJ Effect:
The man we had been looking for two days was dead. The body was returned to Chamonix at 6 pm.
You said that the man had gone on an activity trail. What equipment did he carry?
He was wearing trail equipment. With sports shoes with crampons absolutely not adapted. I force the line but these are crampons for grandmothers to walk in town!
"
http://www.lyoncapitale.fr/Journal/Lyon/Sport/Trail-Running/Trailer-mort-su...
 Robert Durran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:

> First they came for the trail runners ...

No, the trail runners are just justified though regrettable collateral damage

2
 pneame 20 Aug 2017
In reply to jon:
> Worth reading this (apologies if it's already been linked)

A good article - while agreeing that heavy handed responses are too much, Killian Jornet's twitter response is simply irresponsible and not even slightly amusing. He is a great example of what is achievable, but he is not a great example to anyone who does not have his level of experience and fitness.

1
 jon 20 Aug 2017
In reply to pneame:

Yes, I'm rather surprised at his response given his previous form!
1
 Jonny 20 Aug 2017
In reply to pneame:

> [Killian] is a great example of what is achievable, but he is not a great example to anyone who does not have his level of experience and fitness.

Much like Alex Honnold isn't. And as well tramelled as El Cap is (even if it falls well short of the Gouter), a minimum kit list that applies to all would be absurd.

That your role models are more competent than you, and therefore less dependent on equipment, is something that has to be learned - that's what makes them role models, after all.
 Robert Durran 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Jonny:
> Much like Alex Honnold isn't. And as well tramelled as El Cap is (even if it falls well short of the Gouter), a minimum kit list that applies to all would be absurd.

> That your role models are more competent than you, and therefore less dependent on equipment, is something that has to be learned - that's what makes them role models, after all.

I think you are missing the point. It is Killian's response to the ban which sets a poor example, not his personal running/montaineering (well there was that Frendo thing......... )
Post edited at 22:23
1
 Jonny 20 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

Ok, that's not how I understood the second part of Mr Neame's point.

In any case, my message is one of complete personal responsibility. The article above doesn't lead to supporting the regulations. Armed with an ice axe and a rope they don't know how to use, we now have two or three people dead in the crevasse instead of one. Petzl and Black Diamond will be rubbing their hands together, but this is a step backwards for everyone else.
 Maarten2 20 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I don't understand why folk do the Gouter route - everything sounds horrible about it.
I did the Italian normal route aka Aiguille Grises aka Pope Route (albeit a while ago) and it was a great route, with very few others to distract, great surroundings. The hut walk to the Gonella in is amongst the more spectacular in the Alps.
And having watched some of the Gran Couloir stonefall videos on YouTube, I guess the Italian route is much safer too.
 Neil Williams 21 Aug 2017
In reply to Dell:

> GoreTex is a necessity?

This struck me as silly - why not one of the other technologies e.g. Paramo? Poorly drafted laws at their best...

Ignoring the general issue entirely, "a breathable, waterproof jacket and trousers" is how such a thing should be worded if it is necessary.
 Dogwatch 21 Aug 2017
In reply to 99ster:

> Ski mask...?

masque de ski

Goggles, as someone else has said.
 jon 21 Aug 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

In this case I suspect it's a generic term. As such, GoreTex and K-way are widely used in France.
 Robert Durran 21 Aug 2017
In reply to jon:

> In this case I suspect it's a generic term. As such, GoreTex and K-way are widely used in France.

So like a hoover then? (though not needed on the Gouter obviously.......... )
le_quack 22 Aug 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

I was also wondering how systems like Pile and Pertex would be viewed

hopefully the laws will be fleshed out and made more sensible if not necessarily less restrictive if that makes sense
 wayne1965 22 Aug 2017
In reply to Maarten2:
The Italian normal route joins the Gouter route so Frog laws will still apply
but the Brenva face through to the three peaks route are exempt
Post edited at 15:37
 MG 22 Aug 2017
In reply to wayne1965:

> The Italian normal route joins the Gouter route so Frog laws will still apply

You're on the watershed though, so you only need one boot and half a jacket if coming from Italy.
 flaneur 22 Aug 2017
In reply to le_quack:

> I was also wondering how systems like Pile and Pertex would be viewed

Already banned by the Chamonix fashion police.

 wayne1965 23 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:
not my words ... but an interesting point of view nonetheless....
http://steviehaston.blogspot.fr/2017/08/controversy-gear-and-fear-by-stevie...
 Dell 23 Aug 2017
In reply to wayne1965:

I didn't need to see that.

 Tim Davies 23 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Has anyone ever seen a British climber in the alps with too little kit???

 Tam O'Bam 27 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:
Reading the Lyon Capitale article, it looks like the Mayor introduced these bye-laws as a stop-gap, as an immediate response to the "final straw" fatality of the Lyonnais trail runner, who was extremely poorly equipped and trying to emulate Jornet. (In fact the bye-laws came out the same day the body of the trail-runner was found). It might seem a bit knee-jerk, however I sympathise with the authorities whom, it appears, are faced with mounting numbers of incidents of that sort.

The PGHM boss said he wasn't expecting the bye-laws to be put into effect so quickly, and thought there might have been more discussion beforehand, so it looks like a stop-gap. I wouldn't be surprised if it was re-thought and amended, with all various parties having a locus in the discussion being consulted.

I'm intending to be in Cham mid October, so It'll be interesting to see if the bye-law does change.
Post edited at 16:35
 nb 27 Aug 2017
In reply to john arran:

> First they came for the trail runners ...

Actually, first they came for the wingsuiters!

(although not without a certain justification)
 Brass Nipples 27 Aug 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Couldn't be 1980's with a GPS........

yes it could, you could get early handheld GPS in the 80's

 Brass Nipples 27 Aug 2017
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Doesn't look onerous to me, but then I'm a Brit Alpinist. Heavy and slow are my bywords...

 wayne1965 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Lion Bakes:

heavy and slow does not mean safe !!
but at least you will not be fined when they collect your frozen body parts

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