UKC

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2011/08/pembroke_and_lakes_e8_onsights_for_...

Did Steve use a skyhook? I'm sure he doesn't care (and I certainly don't) but does it count as an on-sight if you know you need a specialist piece of kit prior?

Yes

In this case, many people take a sky hook to onsight lord of the flies so I think it would be more surprising if someone didn’t take at least one hook with them on this. Steve planned to take a hook . Also the main hook placement is pretty obvious, and the sequences of climbing are way harder to spot and he read the moves so well.  

Also he missed a fairly crucial (obviously not that crucial for him!!) nut 1 in the headwall. This meant that apart from a sky hook, the only gear he had between him girdle ledge was a small nut. And it stays hard to the very top. 

Ed

Thanks for clarifying. Also thanks everyone for all the dislikes to a genuine question. 

Isn't there a quote from James McHaffie along the lines that gathering good beta is one of the essential skills of the trad on-sighter? 

Oh paul you silly idiot for not knowing the ins and outs of prepping for an E8 onsight...

I can't really get my head around how this level of commitment and talent is a thing. Mind blown.

I bet he still says he did it by the skin of his teeth, was almost off several times, was pumped out of his mind, etc.

Coincidentally I was listening to Jam Crack yesterday and Emma Twyford was talking about how a flash or on-sight of this route might be possible but hard. Well worth a listen to her interview btw.

Wow - top effort, (again), by Steve.

He must have the most Incredible fitness, both physically and mentally, .... I bet it was almost unbearable to watch.

Absolutely brilliant👍👏

Completely agree. Using world class sport ability to take big-fall-potential trad to a new level. Nice one Steve - again!

And to those quibbling about onsightness, you have to remember that, unlike in most sport climbing, the line between onsight and flash in trad is fundamentally and inescapably blurred. Without bolts to show the way, simply knowing where a route goes often requires some degree of advance knowledge, not to mention that critical gear (and sometimes even hidden holds) is often mentioned in guidebook descriptions. Far better to recognise a fantastic achievement by a great climber who almost certainly knew so little about the route in advance as to make it feel as onsight as any other, than to try to enforce arbitrary lines in the definitional sand.

I don't think anyone here is trying to do that, John.

Hear hear. A guidebook would be failing in its purpose if it didn't mention crucial non-standard gear (imho) and knowing only such a suggestion would not blow a trad on-sight (imho, again).

Quite right. What a lot of people seem to have forgotten is that the rules are different at E6 and above i.e. when top roping becomes headpointing.

Just to clarify. Are you saying that headpointing a route under E6 isn't headpointing, Its top roping. So if you lead it later on its a repeat, not a headpoint? I'd like to respectfully disagree there, if someone throws a rope down a vs to figure out the moves and gear in the view that they are going to lead it when it's dialled, dials it in, then ties in and leads it, I'd say they have successfully headpointed a vs. I wouldn't say they've gone and had a jolly on a top rope sesh then later on repeated the route on lead. Anyway this is bullshit semantics that really don't matter, derailing a thread that is wholly positive. Smashed it Steve, nice one 

Great effort - and great flexibility! One of the moves Steve did involved getting his right foot level with his hips (off to the side but still really high).

Regarding skyhooks. It’s well known that the harder routes on the Cromlech can take skyhooks due to the nature of the rock (pockets and little edges). This is also the case with some other crags in the Pass like Cwm Glas Bach. The guide book won’t necessarily mention a skyhook but it’s sensible to have one or two with you if the route is bold (I placed two on a lowly E3 the other day).

Oh, the joys of the dislike button, not even Facebook is that obnoxious.

What a great achievement. 

Without wishing to derail the discussion too much (great work Steve!), I dislike the assumption that 'common knowledge' means it shouldn't be mentioned in a guide book. Would a foreign visitor or even someone who'd never climbed in Wales know to take one? 

I think that as someone who'd never climbed in Wales before you'd presumably do a couple of the easier routes at the Cromlech before trying Nightmayer and the nature of the rock/climbing would quickly make you realise that a skyhook could potentially be very useful on a route that's as obviously bold as Nightmayer.