UKC

SKILLS: Technique - Choosing your footwear

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 UKC Articles 24 Apr 2018
Neil Gresham Footwear, 3 kbYou can study footwork all you like, but if you have the wrong shoes you can never hope to get the most from your feet. Forget the mentality that you're not a good climber so you don't need good shoes. It may be the case that you don't climb hard because of your lousy footwear! Poor shoes will ingrain bad habits, limit your repertoire and cause you to rely heavily on your arms. That said, good shoes won't guarantee success either, they will just help to maximize your chances. The most important thing is to buy shoes that fit and which suit the stage of progression you have reached.

Read more
Wiley Coyote2 24 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

After years of bumbling round in comfy shoes (umpteen pairs of Evolve Defy) my climbing has suddenly improved, mainly because I decided I'd better try harder and climb more regularly if I was ever was going to get round to those routes I've long thought I must get round to. After jumping a couple of  grades, I've also very recently switched to a pair of slightly down-turned shoes (Scarpa Vapours) but I'm finding it quite tricky to come to terms with them. Rather than feeling more sensitive and precise they actually feel like a pair of planks on my feet. How long have others found it takes to make the transition from their comfy old favourites to reap the benefits of more technical footwear?

 john arran 24 Apr 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Tempting as the idea may be, there isn't anything like a linear scale with beginner/comfy at one end and technical at the other. Beginner shoes tend to be stiff enough so they can be worn without being a very tight fit, so inevitably end up pretty similar to each other. Technical shoes, on the other hand, vary enormously, and each model will be ideal only for a limited range of rock types or uses. At its simplest, some are ridiculously soft and amazing for smearing, while useless on small edges, while others may be incredibly precise on edges but feel like bricks when smearing. Most people will end up favouring something in between, but personal climbing style and preference, as well as foot shape, will affect everyone's preference.

I don't have any experience of Vapours but it may be they're just built for more edging performance, at the expense of 'feel', than you think is ideal.

 Bulls Crack 24 Apr 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

If I start worrying overmuch about shoes I think of Ron in his Hanwags and thick socks. 

 

 

 

1
 jezb1 24 Apr 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

When I got my first pair of down turned shoes, hi angles, I climbed like a bag of crap for a little while. 

Now im used to them I love ‘em. I put it down to the down turn putting your toes a fair chunk lower than where you are used to them being.

Stick with it!

 Andy Hardy 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> If I start worrying overmuch about shoes I think of Ron in his Hanwags and thick socks. 

Yep. Johnny Woodward did Beau Geste in EBs yet I am required to bind my feet like a Chinese courtesan to get up the occasional E1?

In all my time climbing the factors which determine failure have been: head>fingers>arms>flexibility>feet.

Remember kids: no pain; good.

 Wft 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

And then you should think of Bernd Arnold and throw your shoes away

 
 AlanLittle 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

You apparently have no idea just how tight EBs were being worn in those days in the struggle to squeeze some kind of performance out of them

 Andy Hardy 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Wood for Trees:

I'm only jealous because technical shoes are designed for normal width feet, not mine. To be fair to the article it does say that if you have narrow / low volume feet down turned shoes may not fit.

1
 Andy Hardy 25 Apr 2018
In reply to AlanLittle:

I couldn't afford EBs, I had some knock offs which looked *very* similar - called Super Calanques. 

Wiley Coyote2 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> I couldn't afford EBs, I had some knock offs which looked *very* similar - called Super Calanques. 


I had a pair of those and they seemed great, almost  'stickies' before their time, but the rubber was so soft I wore them out in a fortnight. Of course that was on Almscliffe and my footwork was even worse back then than it is now

 Andy Hardy 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Yes, mine came with a spare pair of soles and rands in the box! 

 Hat Dude 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> I couldn't afford EBs, I had some knock offs which looked *very* similar - called Super Calanques. 


I had these as my 1st pair of rock boots, was told in the shop they were just the same as EBs.

They weren't, they were dire.

I later bought some Hanwags on the assumption that if Ron wore them they must be good plus the fact they were a good bit cheaper than the Scarpa Super Rats which had just come out.

 Kafoozalem 25 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

A quote from the article...

' However, if you have a short big toe and longer middle toes (known as 'Morton's toe) then you are more likely to struggle and find that you have fewer options with performance shoes. In this case try to track down the 'least asymmetric' performance shoes (when you examine the soles you'll see that with some, the inside edge will angle inwards slightly and the point of the toe may be slightly more central)'.

By 'fewer options' they actually mean bugger all. Every time a new performance shoe comes out I notice with dismay that downturning is always coupled with high asymmetry. I haven't seen a replacement model for the Evolve Prime in years. As the article suggests , us freaks of nature with a more symmetrtical foot structure are forced to accept lower performance. I shall keep resoling my Primes as long as I can.

 Bulls Crack 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Climbing shoe marketing wont ever say most things can be done in most shoes. What would once have been considered top of the range specialist foot-ware would now not be deemed suitable for a climbing wall ingenue. 

 

One thing that does make a s difference is wearability If the shoes hurt too much I can't climb properly. 

Post edited at 10:01
 jon 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> If I start worrying overmuch about shoes I think of Ron in his Hanwags and thick socks. 


I bumped into Paul Williams and Ron in (I think) Cheedale, back in the day. Paul asked me what I'd been up to and I told him I'd been on High Tor the previous evening and done Flaky Wall and was chuffed about it but that I'd found it fingery and strenuous. Ron piped up that if I'd been wearing Hanwags I wouldn't have even needed to use my hands. And, you know what... I believed him! Gullible or what?

 Offwidth 25 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

"Of course, in counter to the whole argument of having tight-fitting performance shoes we will always be able to sight examples of climbers such as the 'Bleausards' (the elderly locals in Fontainebleau who can cruise 7s in shoes that fit like carpet slippers) but this simply begs the question of how much harder they would climb if they wore decent shoes!"

Or of course it might be good footwork overcomes most performance aspects of climbing shoes as long as the fit is snug and the shoe fit for the style (mainly smear vs edge capabilities). Do people really think Ron and these bleausards were giving away grades on purpose?

Way too many  climbers I see have shoes that are much too tight for what they are doing and this can hold back footwork development almost as much as a loose shoe would. People should read this BMC article and think about how well their feet will function when they get old, if they develop bunions from over tight shoes.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climbing-shoes-is-pain-insane

 

 

 

Post edited at 10:13
 jonnie3430 25 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

They didn't mention cost! Simond seem to have dropped the ones I use, but something like these https://www.simond.com/rock-climbing-shoes-grey-id_8495164 is great for indoors so you don't wear your fancy shoes out on plastic. Similar to the cost of a resole too. Makes you work even harder on your footwork and works your arms more too...

 AlanLittle 25 Apr 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

> works your arms more too...

So I take it you disagree with the point in the article that training yourself not to trust your feet may not be the best idea?

 jonnie3430 25 Apr 2018
In reply to AlanLittle:

Find the break point dude; features, temperature, humidity, different rock (or plastic,) means more or less weight on the feet, you need to read that and adapt. In your warm up you are figuring it out.

1
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Snug but comfortable for me. Tried going the other way and it didn't work (quite the reverse). Also seen the deformation effects on the feet of long term users.

 cha1n 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

I also learned to climb in the Evolve Defy, the Vapor is stiff in comparison. If you want something more familiar then buy a soft performance shoe, there are plenty out there, just give 'em a bend when you're buying them to compare them to your defys.

 cha1n 26 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Also, has the wrong article been linked? Seems like a technique article with a link to a video on choosing shoes...

Andrew Kin 26 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

Any kid climbing should have at least one pair of well fitting La Sportiva Maverinks in their bag.

Brilliant allround shoe which can turn its hand to most stuff (Other than heel hooks, terrible for heel hooks) and still be comfortable after 3 hrs climbing.

My daughter has various technical shoes (Swear by Scarpa Booster S) but I must admit I prefer her to wear the La Sportivas in general as they never give any grief to her young feet.

 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> One thing that does make a difference is wearability If the shoes hurt too much I can't climb properly. 

Fit is everything. It is possible to have very tight shoes which do not hurt because they have no particular pressure points. Tight shoes perform better - it is just a matter of finding ones which are the same shape as your feet. There is no such thing as a "comfortable shoe" - different shoes will be comfortable for different people.

 

 C Witter 26 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Articles:

It's hard to argue with Neil Gresham, as he's a training master. But...

1. You certainly can stand on tiny screw-ons even in flat, rounded shoes. A friend and I both use Evolv Royales indoors, because they're very resistant to wear. I won't speak for myself, but I've been at the Marmot Masters at Kendal and watched my friend cruise c.V5 problems in his Royales, where others in fancy downturned or edge-less shoes failed. His footwork is immaculate and I don't think I ever remember him failing on a problem due to a foot slipping off.

2. Meanwhile, I see lots of young men in fancy shoes - often too large - who still rely on heft to schlep their way up problems. Good shoes might facilitate good footwork, but they won't teach you good footwork, it seems.

3. I don't think we really understand "footwork" very well. We talk so much about "footwork", but actually what we often mean is body position. It seems to me it's often hip work, or knee work, or core work or brain work that keeps your feet stuck to the rock/holds.

4. Finally, I do use more performance shoes. And, wearing a pair indoors recently, when rain forced me unexpectedly inside, I did notice the relative ease of sticking the same small screw-on hold in my "performance" pair (Bandits: fairly flat, but tensioned and pointy and very well-fitted) versus my Royales. But, I find that these "performance" shoes wear out ridiculously quickly. I've given up on La Sportiva shoes because they always go at the toe so quickly. They're also very expensive... and quick-wearing and expensive aren't a good mix.

So, it's not exactly that I disagree, but that I think there's just too much hype around shoes and gear, and that this hype is a bit alienating and maybe a bit unhelpful. Too often it seems that the first step to achieving something is presented as buying something. These two overwhelming imperatives in modern society - constantly improve yourself and constantly buy things - are uncomfortably co-joined and amplified within climbing and mountaineering.

The other day I saw a post on another site in which someone with two great pairs of walking boots was asking for recommendations for a third pair, to suit summer walking and light scrambling in the Lakes and Peak. Christ! When we get to the point where people feel they need technical advice on c.£150 specialist boots for a bit of rambling in the fells, something's gone awry...

4
 oldie 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

> People should read this BMC article and think about how well their feet will function when they get old, if they develop bunions from over tight shoes. <

You make a very valuable point. Part of the article printed below.

"High ability climbers are generally more affected by the following reported conditions:

Toe deformity – claw or hammer toes; Splinter haemorrhage under nails (collection of blood under toe nails); Bruised toes; Cuts; Corns; Mycosis (fungal infections); Nerve compression syndromes; Hallux valgus (big toe angled towards other toes); Disorders of the traversal arch structure in foot, but normal longitudinal arch; Bunions."

I have, or have had, all of these with the exception of nerve compression syndromes. Splinter haemorrhage was associated with temporary loss of both big toenails, I had heel inserts made up to counter hyperpronation pain, and a recent operation corrected hammer toe, hallux valgus and bunion on one foot (my feet were too different in size until this was done). Probably, at least in part, due to buying ridiculously small climbing shoes.

Disappointingly after all this I have never come near to being a "high ability climber".

 

 

1
 Offwidth 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

You need to read the BMC article.  Very tight shoes are pretty much always a problem for reasons it discusses (largely the foot to leg response is unnatural when you fall and land). To me that is a risk that climbers should be aware of and accept but hardly anyone I've spoken to is even aware of these issues (ie those away from the potential damage to the bones and tendons in the foot itself)

I have had bunions since 2000 (flared up due to jogging in plastics down a glacier to catch the train)  and for the last decade  I can no longer run or do multiple big hill days when winter climbing. An operation to rectify the problems has 6 months recovery for each foot with a risk my feet might not recover at all,  so I put up with it for now as things are not terrible and I'm a bumbly punter. You can't turn the clock back easily once damage is done.

 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

> You need to read the BMC article.  Very tight shoes are pretty much always a problem for reasons it discusses........

Fair enough, but I was talking about comfort while actually being worn.

 Robert Durran 26 Apr 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

> Makes you work even harder on your footwork and works your arms more too........

But you can do that more effectively on harder routes by wearing better shoes.

 

 1poundSOCKS 27 Apr 2018
In reply to Kafoozalem:

> By 'fewer options' they actually mean bugger all.

I've got wide feet and Morton's, and I can usually find a few options. At the moment I have Otaki (men's and ladies's), Instinct lace and Booster S.

 Si dH 27 Apr 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

> After years of bumbling round in comfy shoes (umpteen pairs of Evolve Defy) my climbing has suddenly improved, mainly because I decided I'd better try harder and climb more regularly if I was ever was going to get round to those routes I've long thought I must get round to. After jumping a couple of  grades, I've also very recently switched to a pair of slightly down-turned shoes (Scarpa Vapours) but I'm finding it quite tricky to come to terms with them. Rather than feeling more sensitive and precise they actually feel like a pair of planks on my feet. How long have others found it takes to make the transition from their comfy old favourites to reap the benefits of more technical footwear?

Technical shoes don't immediately give you better footwork, but they allow you to learn new techniques that are far more difficult or impossible in non technical ones. Good examples are marginal heel and toe hooks. Another is the ability to pull much harder on your toes on small  edges on steep ground, once you learn how to position your foot and build the required core strength. It will probably take months of regular climbing on the right sort of rock before you learn to do any of this well. But once you can, you'll see more possibilities and probably never want to go back.

Having said all of that, Vapours are not very technical, not very good at the above things, and are pretty stiff. They're best for vertical limestone edging.

Edit: technical shoes need to be snug but not painful. My Instinct VS/VSRs (I'm on my 5th or 6th pair now) are only a little less comfortable than my old anasazis of various types used to be. They would be the wrong choice for a long trad route in summer though.

Post edited at 06:41
 thepodge 27 Apr 2018

As someone with a Roman / peasant / square foot I'm finding I either have dead spots or dead toes. 

I'm climbing for fun and having my toes crushed isn't fun. 


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...