UKC

Just to let people know, the works crag by hodge close has been vandalised. The industrial sector has had chains removed and several bolts chopped or broken. The paddy cave has had most of the biners stolen.
Pretty depressing stuff.

UKC Staff Edit: This is now on the UKC News page with photos.

More Info: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68018

In reply to ruari88: well out of order. A lot of climbers enjoy the works to keep fit out of ice season. It sounds like some fanatic who does not approve of dry tooling has taken some effort to do this. Or am I jumping to conclusions? You would think people would have better things to do other than ruining other people's enjoyment of an aspect of the sport.

In reply to The Grist: the whole lot has been ruined, thousands of pounds worth of kit has been destroyed/stolen if anyone knows anything then please tell us!

In reply to The Grist:

Is it the sort of damage that would be very hard for a non climber to do?

In reply to TobyA: Yes...

Specific bolts hacked off to make routes impossible to climb safely,

Lower offs chopped

Majority of in situ draws stolen

Would have needed a good knowledge of rope work to get up the routes to get the gear, a ladder could have been used too in some situations.

Although, no obvious damage to the routes which i find odd... just the bolts and draws.

In reply to ruari88: There are a lot of thieves get good money for metal.

In reply to joan cooper:


Surely there are easier ways to get a lot more metal than this. And the chopping of the bolts suggests an ethical(ahem) motivation rather than just looking to acquire some kit. As an ethical statement this sits somewhere between misguided and moronic - my sincere sympathies for those who put a lot of work into developing a greatly-appreciated venue.

In reply to joan cooper:

I dont think its just metal theft, the damage has been targeted specifically at making as much of the crag unclimbable as possible, I think only 2 or 3 lines remain complete.

In reply to Jamie B:

Who owns the works?

In reply to ruari88:

It is blatantly a competent climber with some sort of vendetta against this amazing DT venue... this person also happens to be a thief! chopping bolts is one thing, stealing hundreds/thousands of pounds worth of kit is something entirely different!

Anyone who has been to the crag will understand, this is not a random act of vandalism/theft, this is a statement against a recognised and approved DT venue, this is utterly unacceptable and whoever is responsible needs to be named and shamed.

It has been widely recognised that this is an approved venue, the BMC along with various equipment manufacturers have helped to create this place along with countless man hours put in by a lot of different people, myself included!

Venues such as this have been massively beneficial for training for hard winter ascents as will as the recent Ice World Cup in which GB has represented.

I really hope that the culprit can be found/educated and we can start to rebuild a fantastic venue

Simon

In reply to maybe_si: Dry tooling is not my thing, but I am sorry to hear it. I was at Hodge Close last night - but didn't see any thing.

Insert 4 letter expletive <HERE>

Hope you catch the culprits!

BW

In reply to ruari88:

This is very sad.

I hope the gear can be replaced swiftly, maybe Cumbria bolt fund could provide some assistance?

I believe there was to be some sort of coaching event there this weekend, the action appears timed to make maximum impact.

If the perpetrator is watching this thread, they will be, the theft was planned to produce a reaction . Try refocusing your efforts and emotions on something important, you could make a real difference contributing to uncut, occupy, 38 degrees or similar (or indeed their rightwing equivalents, should that be to your taste). Your impact there would be long lasting and valued by a much larger section of society. You have time and energy to spare, use it constructively.

In reply to Baron Weasel: its not as if the place is a beauty spot or sussies. I though what a great thing to do to make use of what essentially is a shot heap. The person or persons to do this have stolen the gear and are sick in my mind. Wasn't there to be some training or event there in a couple of weeks. Its not ripping down gear against bolting its pure theft.
Sorry to those who use it and have put in hours of hard work. Hope you catch them and we should hang them by there tools.

In reply to ruari88: it's a shame there's no cctv on the farm house for some vehicle movements as I assume there would have been transport used. I myself have used the venue when routes haven't been in nick and hope it can get back soon to its former glory. And to the idiot or idiots involved what harm was been done by people enjoying the freedom we know as climbing whatever form it takes.

In reply to ALL: Has anyone been there and seen this first hand? Does anyone have a photo that we could use on UKC?

I'd love to talk to someone who has been there - and get the word out ASAP on this via the UKC news page.

I'm on jack( at )ukclimbing.com

Cheers - Jack

In reply to Vince McNally:
Dry tooling not my bag but a big loss and upsetting for the great guys who put a mammoth effort in there.
Landowners
The boundaries around there are with 3 landowners (i have not checked which one applies)
-National Trust
-Burlington Slate
-a party who have their land managed by Smith Gore (land agents)
All of whom tolerate a low profile activities.

I have oft wondered the legality/rights of placing bolts and developments like The Works, White Goods or crags on private land ...and the risks of investing in such ... no justification for vandalism but an inherent risk.

In reply to simondgee:

Jack, Pictures have been sent, Please feel free to use as you wish.

I was climbing at the works on Wednesday (left about 4pm and all was okay). I then returned on Friday at around 11am to discover the maddness. This means it definitely happened between these times.

If you would like anymore info, feel free to get in touch.

Peter Holder

In reply to james.peter: Thanks Peter - email sent.

Jack

In reply to maybe_si:

Well said Si.

The draws and maillons that Petzl/Lyon donated to us for this venue would have cost about £500 alone.

Bolts, hangers, crabs and slings bought with our own hard earned money.

Not to mention all Gregs grivel kit on his project that has gone.

F*CKERS.

In reply to tom290483:

Don't forget all the kit that DMM donated originally!

In reply to joan cooper: Not for steel, certainly not in small quantities. Copper, aluminium, brass etc yes, but steel isn't worth the bother.

In reply to ruari88:

Dry tooling. shocking!

Hope they catch those vandal scum : )

In reply to ruari88:

Stainless steel even is not worth enough to justify doing this, a few dozen kilos even of copper (about £3 a kilo last time I sold some) would hardly be worth it even and stainless is worth a lot less, so it is definitely an anti-bolting statement.

Having said that those who put the bolts in were making a statement too, both acts seem equivalent to me. Live by the sword, die by the sword

I've not used it myself either but I'm sure the culprits will be caught. They are obviously anti DT climbers and the climbing world is pretty damned small. Its bound to leak out - keep your ear to the ground.

In reply to ruari88:

Does anyone know the legal angle on this? Assuming the perpetrator was caught (which unfortunately seems unlikely) could they actually be punished for theft? Or does the fact that the gear was left at the crag mean that they weren't technically stealing?

In reply to ruari88: It's stealing. The stuff still had an owner no matter where it was left.

In reply to UrbanRocker:

Yeah I thought about it a bit more after I posted. If I leave my car on the street it doesn't mean people can just take it. I guess the next question is how do we go about finding them/proving they did it, and then persuade the police to care!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
those who put the bolts in were making a statement too, both acts seem equivalent to me. Live by the sword, die by the sword

The Voice of Reason strikes again! I'm not into dry tooling and have no wish to be but I applaud the fact that those who are had taken their activity to a bit of rock no one else wanted and where it was doing no harm at all to anyone and, more importantly, no harm to existing rock routes. I hope it is restored to use ASAP.

Really sorry to hear this, the Works is a great venue and has inspired and helped me train to a new level (albeit lowly) last year. I hope you can find the money and enthusiasm to restore things.

In reply to ruari88:

Bastards have ruined a great training venue used by many. Christ, there must be some grumpy gits living in the Lakes....

In reply to ruari88: I've been to the Works and it was a perfect DT venue, this is bang out of order. Real scunner for everyone who developed the routes and to put it simply the folk who did this are utter c***s...........

In reply to ruari88: I haven’t dry tooled outdoors but this isn't about climbing its just pure vandalism. I know a few people who have used that cave and it seems a great place that has been well developed by some people to practice their sport in. It’s rock but its no use to climbers, trad sport or otherwise. This is a completely independent sporting facility that has been trashed by some fairly committed idiot.

It wouldn’t be any different to someone smashing up a skate park or something, not that they’ll find them or do anything but it should be reported to the police.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Would it be any good as a (clean) aid venue?

BW

In reply to ruari88: Bleh, not cool stuff. Like others have said, not into dry tooling but we can't have our own way all the time. The crag isn't hurting me, and if its an approved dry tooling crag then it can't have been very good for any other style of climbing.

In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

This was a criminal offence and amounts to both Theft contrary to sections 1-6 of the Theft Act 1978 plus Criminal Damage (for the bolts/ equipment which were damaged but left in situ). Has one of the interested parties informed Cumbria Constabulary yet?

If someone did this on an ethical basis, they obviously didn't realise that this will only push drytoolers onto the hills! Roll on the threads reporting people with Nomics getting seen heading up Langdale?

I've not used the facility yet. From what I've heard I can see no-one else wanting to head to that little corner of the Lakes, so it seams an ideal place to help both drytooling (subsequent hard mixed climbing) and therefore facilitating conservation by keeping us off Trad routes? I hope the culprits get what's coming to them!

No

In reply to waiting for snow:


Doesn't that depend on whether they had the right to bolt it in the first place? Using your logic the drillers could also be charged with criminal damage, couldn't they?

That's the problem with doing things on the limit of legality, it all falls outside the legal system, it's just between climbers. I agree it's rude awakening for those who assumed what they did was ok, on the basis of them wanting to do it, but such "logic" works both ways... like back in the days of bolting wars.

It's a bit like squatting vacant property, not doing any harm to anyone, after a few years it feels home... then one day the law arrives and the squatters, babies and all, come down to earth with a crunch, as it were.

I'm being a bit devil's advocate, but only a bit.

In reply to waiting for snow:

Sad and stupid. Can't see crimnal action helping much though, as what the going rate for a first offence given the likely motive?

In reply to ruari88: Hmm - until looking on the UKC logbook I didn't realise exactly where the cave is in relation to Hodge... Anyway when we were there on Thursday night there was a car parked by that gate (down to The Works) which left just before us. I'll ask my mate if he clocked what sort of car it was... I think it was white or silver from memory.

BW

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

As climbers all we have to define what's acceptable is consensus. Regardless of your own opinions on the merits of dry tooling it is extremely selfish to go against the consensus and cause thousands of pounds worth of damage to a crag that others enjoy, especially when the venue is so obviously unsuited to trad/sport.

Of course you can argue that there is no consensus, but as far as I can tell the support for the works has far outweighed the criticism.

In reply to bob ashcroft:


I am thinking sky hook, sky hook, bolt, sky hook, sky hook, bolt... On 'paper' it looks ideal?!?

BW

In reply to Baron Weasel: in theory yes, but i reckon there isn't may hooks and it would be fairly hard considering it is a roof. I however am not the best person to ask as i am not an aid climber

In reply to ruari88:
Utter a**eholes. This was a perfect little venue tucked out of the way and on horrible rock that no one would climb

With the epicentre/paddy cave tooling event this weekend, it's one hell of a co-incidence that it's just been done

In reply to bob ashcroft: It could be aided with a lot of help from the bolts, and the drilled tooling holes. Without the gear it probably would be impossible, maybe steves corner could be...

Its a total choss hole and its only use was/is tooling. I don't understand why someone would cause so much damage to the crag, in terms of value it is thousands of pounds and also hundreds if not thousands of man hours.

In my opinion if whoever did it get found, they should be made to compensate those that have put in the time and effort to create it. You cant just go and destroy something because you don't like it, there were many avenues to voice concerns, the BMC, the Bolt fund, the FRCC or the individual climbers that have made the crag what it is.

It needs to be re-established as soon as possible and an example needs to be made of whoever caused the damage.

Pete.

In reply to ruari88: I'm utterly disgusted by what's happened. I can't believe PEOPLE would organise and go to the lengths demonstrated to wreck such a out of the way but massively significant venue to the people that use it. From what I've read the damage has been carried out by PEOPLE who know what there doing as the rope work and persific bolts that have been damaged, you would need good knowledge of climbing.
This venue has no possibility of been used for trad or sport and has little to no bad impact on the surrounding area but only has the possibility to introduce people who may not normally visit the area to go and spend money before and after there visit.
Which ever morons did this should be disgusted with what they have done as they are cowards and thieves, I only see this as a bump in the road and their ignorance will only push the further development of such venues and this venue and further promote dry tooling.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


I admit that I don't know the exact details regarding The Works. I am assuming that since The Works had the support of people such as DMM that the area was authorised for it's use. I also accept that my law knowledge isn't that of a solicitor, that's why god created the CPS!

Regarding the initial drillers/bolters: for drilling to be criminal damage the rock would need to be property of someone who would not permit the drilling. My understanding was that it was a disused/abandoned quarry and with concent of the owners of the local quarry which is still in use. Damage to something natural with no owner or interested party is a very complex issue however.

Regarding the location of the bolts: the location of a person's property has no impact on their legal rights of ownership. If my neighbour parked their car on my drive, it does not give me the right to smash it up. Also if you find a wallet on the street and do not make a reasonable attempt to find the owner (lost and found), that is legally theft. The only way for such an action to take place legally would be for the appropriate bodies to go through the courts. This would need the BMC, land owner or local council going through the courts to have the bolts removed having made reasonable attempts to first contact the owners for them to remove it. The fact that this was done at night and in secret suggests that those who did it didn't think they had permission or the legal right to do it.

Regarding the impact of upon the theif/vandals: whilst you are right in saying that they will not necessarily get a sentence which would equate to all of the man hours taken to establish this facility. Should the person be found, at least Paddy Cave etc can push for some form of compensation for their equipment. Even if the final sentence is small, the person would have to deal with having a criminal record, which should affect employment prospects etc.

In reply to waiting for snow:

On the other hand if the holes were drilled and bolts placed without authorisation then legally anyone could come along and take them out - if he thought he was cleaning up the place. I doubt that the bolt choppers were breaking a law although those who placed the bolts may have been.

All in all I don't think it is a legal problem and the law courts are unlikely to provide a solution. If they bolts had been deliberately weakened resulting in an accident that would be a more serious and probably punishable by law - there was a case in France concerning something like this for access to a caving venue which resulted in an injury (maybe a death, I can't remember) and the person concerned was condemned.

In reply to Petarghh: I for one am lost for words, but for the sake of climbing and the future of our climbing way of life I am prepared if requested to give up my time to help re build this fantastic venue.

In reply to Jack Geldard - UKC Chief Editor:

Myself and two others arrived at Hodge Close at 11am on Fri 26th just as Pete James arrived.

The Works

All the lower offs on the Industrial Sector wall have been chopped.
Two hangers on two routes chopped.

All routes in the main cave (Paddy Cave) have had all the in-situ draws stolen, except the ones on Guardian of the Underworld, however the finish is shared.
Bolt-on hangers also stolen.
Transfusion and Steves corner have Not been affected.

Bakewell Quarry

The Fang and Right Slip lower offs chopped.
10 Grivel draws stolen (Greg Boswells) (recovered 2)
Outside leg and Outfield unaffected.

Pete

In reply to petegunn:
Jesus, whoever did it must have been fast. You'd think it would take a while to do

In reply to goose299:
The bits of hangers and bolts that were left on the floor looked like they had been cut with a hacksaw rather than a big set of bolt cutters.

15 routes in total were either vandalised or had equipment stolen between the two venues.

Ropes would have had to be set up on at least 5 different locations to access the lower offs.
A ladder could have been used to get to the draws and to unscrew the bolts in the cave or by aiding across bolt to bolt.

A very malicious and time consuming act.

In reply to ruari88:

Ok just to clarify, if it is generally agreed that legal proceedings would not possible were the culprits to be caught, is there anything that could be done in the future to help bring legal charges if the situation arose again? Legal agreements between the BMC and landowners for example? I am no legal expert. It seems a great shame that this venue has been trashed.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


In order for them to justify it as "cleaning up" they would have to prove that they did not reasonably believe the item was in use, or that the owner wanted the item. From what I've heard regarding quickdrawers etc being left in situ when this incident took place, I feel that they would find it impossible to claim they were simply picking up litter.

If you're suggesting that those responsible thought they believed the bolts were there illegally, then they have gone about this in the wrong way and commited criminal offences in the doing. If you see someone parked illegally, you can't just damage or TWOC their car! This is the same. The legal defences covered by the Criminal Damage Act only cover it as lawful if they had an honestly held belief that they had consent, the owner would have granted consent had they known the circumstance, or the damage was necessary in the defence of other property. The fact that this matter was done at night and in secret proves that who ever did this did not believe their actions were legal or with consent. As with anything, short of saving life or limb, if you suspect a criminal offence is being commited you should phone the police, not lurk in the dark with a hack-saw!

In reply to ruari88:
Disgusting, I've been meaning to head over to the works for a while now.

In reply to ruari88:

bunch of pricks.

no shortage of potential culprits after seeing the way some people react to even the mention of DT on here.

hope you find them and take appropriate action.

Gutted to hear the news of this Vandalism.
Even more gutted to hear that it sounds like a climber has done this damage.

So much work has been put into this place from some dedicated people, along with generous donations from outdoor companies. If this was done in some town/village then they would be reported to the police and prosecuted. I hope who ever has done this is caught and will be named and shammed within the climbing community.

It seems that they could be a UKC user, in which case I hope they are reading this thread and feel ashamed.

In reply to ruari88:

If you hold such a strongly held belief that confers such a sense of entitlement that you feel justified in taking this type of action surely you must also have the balls to stand up and say that you did it?

Otherwise you have achieved nothing.

So come on, grow a pair, and come forward. Then we can start the disucussion.

In reply to ruari88:

If you hold such a strongly held belief that confers such a sense of entitlement that you feel justified in taking this type of action surely you must also have the balls to stand up and say that you did it?

Otherwise you have achieved nothing.

So come on, grow a pair, and come forward. Then we can start the discussion.

To the scum, cowards, thieves and ignorant human beings. As mentioned above if you think so strongly then step up and state you're case. You can even set up a fake email or profile if you don't have the minerals.

In reply to ruari88:

Absolutely pathetic, this will only cause more problems in the future. Obviously done to annoy the dry toolers.

In reply to ruari88: as one of the people who was part of the initial set up of the works I am gutted and more than annoyed at what has happened. The way it's affected so many people in different ways is mind boggling. From the the backing of Lyon and dmm for the draws and bolts, the Bmc bolting fund, our time making the routes, Brians time putting the works in the new lakes winter guide, andys time taking photos, to helping Andy and Si prepare for their participation in the ice World Cup. The time was taken to find an area that had no use to other climbers to try an avoid issues. I find it strange how only after nearly a year that someone has timed it to coincide with what was paddys tooling workshop. Tooling is finally making its own as a sport with the help of such venues like the works, white goods etc. having these venues will surely help stop the millstone incidents happening again. This was obviously a well thought out act of destruction to the works. Hopefully the support being shown will help prove that the works has its rights as a tooling venue. Phil.

In reply to fil-p:


That's surely never been in doubt - I can't think of a bolted venue with less conflict of interest. Given that I'm increasingly starting to suspect that this is a strike against the activity of dry-tooling itself. There have been lots of noise-makers on this forum trying to prove a causal link between dry-tooling and "scratching-up out-of-condition rock-routes". Maybe one of them has some information?

In reply to petegunn:
Just bumping this up as bolts ans lower offs have been chopped in both quarries aswell as the draws being stolen

The Works

All the lower offs on the Industrial Sector wall have been chopped.
Two hangers on two routes chopped.

All routes in the main cave (Paddy Cave) have had all the in-situ draws stolen, except some on the new project.
Bolt-on hangers have also been stolen.
Transfusion and Steves corner have Not been affected.

Bakewell Quarry

The Fang and Right Slip lower offs chopped.
10 Grivel draws stolen (Greg Boswells) (recovered 2)
Outside leg and Outfield unaffected.

In reply to ruari88: Having someone willing to do this kind of damage to a venue which doesn't seem to be of any use to anyone else is downright ridiculous. If they had a statement against dry toolers to make then why would they destroy the venues that are there FOR dry-toolers so they don't mess up existing routes elsewhere?!

It's clearly someone without the hindsight to realise that their actions are going to cause one of two things: either the venue is restored and all they've done is piss a lot of people off or that the venue isn't restored and dry-toolers start using normal rock routes because they don't have their own venue.

I hope to god that this dick is found out and extradited from the climbing community.

In reply to ruari88: Not good news. Thanks to all the guys who took time and effort to set this place up, I went a couple of times before winter kicked in and it was great fun! No more for the minute it seems

In reply to ruari88:

Guess it won't be long before we see another Millstone incident now one of the main tooling venues in the country has been destroyed!

In reply to ruari88: Hi there seems many people are angry about this and how much it has cost. Just a thought as it was/is a free venue why dont people donate say £5 or more and send it too the Epicentre in Ambleside so this venue can be reinstated . What do people think !!!

In reply to ruari88:

About the only good thing about this is the number of non-participants who have come out in support of the venue. We're quick enough to have a go at dry toolers when existing crags are perceived to be damaged so I think it's only fair that we should give them credit when they create a specialist venue for themselves that harms no existing routes. I hope that whoever did this is seeing how isolated they are and that The Works will be restored to action asap

In reply to ruari88: looks like everyone is in agreement that this place is a good venue for dt.ive never even thought of going dry tooling but think what has happened is disgusting.
i dont think it will be long till there are names of culprits on here.
i hope the place is up and running as per usual as soon as possible and this publicity is a good thing for the place

In reply to stuart58: Just 50p off the 4000 would be more than enough. Any extra could provide a camera system to keep vandals at bay.

In reply to stuart58: Just 50p off the each of the 4000 reader of this thread would be more than enough. Any extra could provide a camera system to keep vandals at bay.

In reply to Dave Almond: You can see how cutting bolts can be seen as an ethical statement, be it wise or not; but taking someone's quickdraws just seems like theft. In past de-bolting actions, the choppers have offered to returns hangers, quickdraws and the like to show they were making a statement not just nicking stuff; but I wonder if who ever did this is going to offer Greg his quickdraws back? I think they should do so pretty quickly before it becomes simple theft rather than 'just' a climbing-ethics thing.

In reply to TobyA:

Might narrow it down a bit - anti dry tooling and anti fixed draws.

In reply to stuart58:

Great Idea!

Been climbing there today. With a little work it will be up and running in no time.

In reply to DeanD:

Good stuff. I don't dry tool but it's good not to let the bastards win.

In reply to ruari88: Before anyone starts replacing the gear I think something needs to be done to stop it happening again. I would hate for people to go through the time and expense of replacing bolts, quickdraws etc. Just to see this new article in a few months time. Whether that be through CCTV or educational signs stating the crag as a BMC approved DT venue? Not sure if the latter would deter someone of this mindset...even with CCTV it couldn't be monitored 24/7, so they could just cover their face and park somewhere else.

Just out of interest, why is it that draws were left in-situ? Not saying that this gives anyone the right to take them, is it for saftey?

In reply to TheoL:

Would have been very difficult/time consuming to place and remove draws every time, due to the difficulty of the routes, we had had incidents of a couple of draws being stolen in the past, this was overcome by removing any draws that could be easy to reach from the ground, so in general you had to place a couple of draws at the start of the climb then continue on fixed draws, these were all placed on mallions to make them difficult to remove.

In reply to ruari88:

I've not read all the above posts so this might have already been discussed but it might be worth thinking about whether other venues (White goods etc) might be on the culprits 'ticklist' and how they could be protected.

In reply to ruari88:
It seems to me that we should be keeping an eye on the remaining dry-tooling venues (I'm thinking White Goods in particular as it is so well known).

In reply to Somerset swede basher: Touche.

In reply to ruari88:
Just a further thought - were the Maillons glued shut or otherwise rendered unscrewable? If so, this might give a reason to hacksaw the thinner and stable bolts rather than the maillon, to steal the quickdraws? If you could just unscrew them, then we are definitely not 'just' talking about a robbery...

In reply to Papillon: Just got back from climbing at Hodge with DeanD. Abseiled in to the Ind area, ladder not required, but would be nice. Climbed all morning, your right the bastard wont win. Always presuming the said bastard was ever fathered.

In reply to Petarghh: ah ok, thanks for the answer.

In reply to Ben1983: Perhaps if it is the case that the maillons were glued shut or even done up extremely tightly the quickdraws will be returned in a few days?

It sounds like this was likely done by one person in a very short time frame. To go round undoing the maillons and then chopping/cutting the bolts is more time consuming than just chopping/cutting the bolts with the draws still attached.

I find it ironic that this person is likely making a statement about 'Ethics' and yet they have themselves committed theft...

In reply to ruari88:

If someone has done this to make a statement, then they need to come forward and make a statement. Otherwise we can only assume this is vandalism pure and simple.

A while ago bolts were cut in the Scottish mountains and the person came forward and made a clear rational argument as to why they were chopped. I have nothing but respect for the way this was handled. It takes way more guts to fess up to the climbing public than to go sneaking around a grotty quarry at some obscure time of the day. (Incidentally I am still totally opposed to bolts in the Scottish mountains and will happily chat face to face with anyone on the subject)

So assuming the perp doesn’t come forward we have to think of a motive. Back to the experiences in Scotland when Scott Muir was active in the dry tooling scene I know one thing that did rub a lot of people up the wrong way was the commercialisation of it all. Red Bull, photos of people looking rad etc etc. So it think its fairly safe to say that something like this has probably got a lot to do with the timing of this incident :

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5350

People going off and developing a venue for their own training purposes seems fair enough to me. A bunch of guides and some fairly big commercial names, developing a venue then looking to profit out of it, then you have to admit this is going to rub lots of people up the wrong way. (even if this is not how events have transpired, it’s how it looks to an outsider looking in)


So are we looking at vandalism or is someone wanting to come forward and make a statement ?

In reply to TheoL:
I'm not convinced that this is simply a purely ethical statement.
There have been references 'up-thread' to 'an event' planned for this crag in the near future. I'd suggest that this is intended to disrupt said event just as much as making some form of statement.
For those with long memories Hodge Close has previous form as the proposed venue for an outdoor competition that caused some controversy.....

In reply to Burnsie:

Snap!

In reply to Andy Say:

For those with long memories Hodge Close has previous form as the proposed venue for an outdoor competition that caused some controversy.....

For historical completeness: -

http://info.rockrun.com/articles/the-great-lakes-bolt-debate-of-the-early-9...

In reply to MJ:
Thanks for that link

Though in my mind it wasn't so much 'instructors' vs 'climbers' as BMC vs 'The British Association of Sport Climbers' (have I got that name right? I doubt it!)

In reply to Burnsie: Re "People going off and developing a venue for their own training purposes seems fair enough to me. A bunch of guides and some fairly big commercial names, developing a venue then looking to profit out of it, then you have to admit this is going to rub lots of people up the wrong way." Why?

I hope this thread doesn't Deviate from it original purpose

In reply to Simon Yearsley:

Because if you can't admit it then you are not considering things from neutral point of view.

Bolting= controversial
Bolting plus dry tooling = even more controversy.
Bolting plus dry tooling with thrown in commercial interests of guides plus some big name sponsorship = super controversial!

I'm not saying I agree with what has happened, looks likes the perfect venue. I hope the locals get it rebolted soon. Having nothing to do with the venue I'm just saying what it looks like to someone looking in from the outside.

In reply to ruari88: if there is a website or an activist involved with putting up the bolts please send send me an email, id be happy to contribute with a small donation to get this fantastic venue up and running again. Pretty digusted..

Absolutely disgraceful and deeply saddening. The Works was (and hopefully will be again) an outstanding venue that I and many others had trained at.

It was outstanding in its development and provided a unique training ground for those climbers who wanted to push themselves in the winter arena.

I'm struck as to which is more shocking - the lose of and damage to the amazing routes, or the total waste of man hour that many great and inspiring climbers have devoted, or the total idiotic, sad and childish behaviour of some inept, pathetic individual. Unfortunately the climbing community is intermingled with this type of person - luckily they usually content themselves to sit behind a laptop and rant from there.

I fully agree with opposing drytooling at legitimate climbing venues, but the Works was not one of these. It was a shitty, chos hole that was developed into something outstanding. Each sect of the climbing world has as much entitlement to climb, develop and progress as they see fit. Bolting and sports climbing is as good a reflection of this as any - but few argue with its legitimacy.

For the record - I think this is a personal vendetta. Nicking kit is one thing, nicking hangers and lower-offs is conceivable - destroying bolts is boarding on the psychotic.

If a collection is made to re-fit, I'd be more than happy to contribute as would all that I climb with. Equally true if help if needed.

In reply to Burnsie:

This crag was bolted for the benefit of all of us, not just the names and the sponsors. My girlfriend got introduced to drytooling at the Works for our upcoming ice climbing trip and she love it. Whoever did this is very shortsighted, selfish and very backwards thinking, but most of it, a coward of the biggest scale.

In reply to ruari88: it is really quite sad that an individual, or individuals, have devoted so much effort and time into making such a statement. I think it likely that it is a local, somebody who is very proficient, devoutly trad and has most likely spoken out previously against radical developments. It is very unlikely that they will ever claim credit for such a thing. Why? Because they don't have big enough balls to do so.

Just to put in perspective there are single routes there that took 3 days to bolt. That passion and commitment to the sport is amazing. I personally am truly grateful to those who established this venue and no one forces anyone to do anything.

In reply to Simon Yearsley:

I am very supportive of the whole DT thing but I can see the concerns raised here re commercialism.

If was landowner of the works or similar, I may well be happy with it being developed for use as a DT venue, rave cave or dogging venue but if I then saw it being used commercially and large sums being made from it, it would be asking questions/wanting a slice. Foredale quarry ring any bells?

I am in no way suggesting that the land owner had anything to do with the vandalism.

In reply to Graeme James Cook:


Many posting her seem obsessed with testicles! Have you really no more appropriate way of expressing your selves than such macho clichés?

I don't see how it would even be true as apparently it took a lot of effort and time so quite high risk of being caught, so that it is deplorable may be a reasonable statement but hardly cowardly. Regular climbers there must know who it was though, it's unlikely that it was just done out of the blue without the people concerned having a moan at those doing the bolting beforehand.

In reply to ruari88:
A real shame, to put it mildly. Haven't yet been there but was hoping to visit one day.

Destroying a training venue that is of no harm to existing routes and of no interest to anyone else is just an irrational expression of hatred. Perhaps their real issue is with people doing winter ascents of summer routes and being able to do increasingly hard routes as a result of the dry tooling training. That logic doesn't work though as without the dry tooling training people would still go winter climbing, just on easier routes!

Perhaps it's time for the BMC to put some time into explaining what dry tooling is all about and where it can and can't be done, eg via Summit, the BM website, etc. As there are some pretty misguided people there. I haven't been involved with the development of the DT venues so I'm not the best person to write an article for Summit (if they would run it) but would be happy to help out with writing one.

Hmmm

the world is full of wankers, the more I know about people, the more I like cats.

I don't really get the dry tool thing - to me it's not a third way, and I see hate to see routes spoilt by tool users who can't wait for full winter conditions. There was a pic on here of Bowfell Buttress late 2012 that encapsulated this debate.

However - this venue was picked as far as I can see to totally avoid bolt/dry tool controversy on previously established routes, and deserves both respect and protection. Well done guys - you're protecting climbing heritage by creating venues like this. There's no excuse to be damaging historic routes when you can go and 'train' in a quarry no one else wanted to play in.

The person who did this committed offences under the Theft Act and the Criminal Damage Act as far as I can see, unless they were the quarry owner removing unwanted bolts which on the face of it I doubt. As a plod - I hope this has been reported and the remaining cropped off bolt ends fingerprinted - you never know your luck.

So no - keep your tools off established routes until they're well and truly needed, and in the meantime let's help these guys build venues that please all parties, sad old traditional climbers like me, and the dry toolers too.

UK C - howabout an official page with a way to drop these guys a fiver?

Has the landowner given consent for the use of the quarry for this purpose? Perhaps....?

The combination of an ethically suspect climbing style, blatant commercialism, substantial Internet coverage and leaving an enormous amount of expensive shiny equipment in place makes me not surprised in any way of this outcome.

Personally I think ice axes are for whacking into ice...but then I'm a bit old fashioned.

In reply to Burnsie: I see your point(s) and certainly the first one is well made - thank you. I do though think the "destroy it cos its super controversial and cos folk are making an income out of it " (my paraphrasing, not your words, nor an assumption of any rationale of the actual perpetrator) is a tad shortsighted and lacks any real historical depth: the mountains of the UK have long been used as environment in which talented practitioners can earn a living by guiding, coaching or leading others. This is true whether its early shepherds earning money for guiding Victorian gentlemen up Pillar Rock, the Outward Bound establishing centres here in the 50s, loads of instructional groups on Brown Slabs, or Andy, Paddy, Steve or Greg running a coaching & motivational session this weekend. Our mountains (and scrotty quarries) are as good a place as anywhere to earn a living through instruction, coaching and inspiring others to enjoy our sport.

In reply to ruari88:

thing is, they havent destroyed a venue or stopped drytooling - theyve only f*cked off a small but vocal crowd and abused the goodwill of some quality gear providers. if anything theyve given weight to the DT crowd by making the anti-DT cause look bad, no worse and destructive than they fantasize the DTers to be.
a pretty poor show that only makes climbers in general appear petty and childish.

i dont doubt the idiots that did this are sitting at their computers jerking of to this thread and the scene theyve caused, cowards as they are.

the guys that put those routes up and the businesses that backed them will only replace whats been done, likely with more vigor and now more people aware of their efforts, some of whome will join them in their sport.
its a minor setback that will only make honorable DTing all the more respectable, especially it now has an ethical balance - weve all known hysterical anti-DTers to be bark but little bite, now we see they are cowards too.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Anyone can sneak into a crag without being caught. And what would the risk really be. Someone sees you so you leave? C'mon Bruce think it through. It was cowardly if the perpetrator does not come forwards, plain and simple.

In reply to ruari88:

Its cowardly if they hide behind the greater anti-DT crowd, who may not be represented by this event.

In reply to Removed User ice.solo etc. :

Why is it cowardly? This seems to be a bit of a use of the word as when the press refers to suicide bombers as "cowardly" - whatever they are they are not cowardly, it's misusing a word when what you all really mean is "doing something that I think is really bad but cannot find an appropriate word to describe". The same for the testicles obsession, which also show other facets of the personality of the writer.

Perhaps studying the English language a bit or looking at a dictionary of synonyms might help?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Underhanded

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Lacking the courage of their convictions, in that they aren't willing to put their name to the acts the have undertaken?
One definition is that a cowrds is a person that avoids difficulty. I would say that in not admitting to the damage and theft of the equipment in question they are avoiding the difficulty of having to justify their actions or reimburse the affected parties.

Would you not say that counts as cowardly behaviour?

Si

In reply to ruari88: start looking on ebay/newspaper/gumtree for a large set of quickdraws!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


I think you may find that's called a "Thesaurus", you could check by looking it up in a dictionary though.

So still no one coming forward on this? There have been some very loud voices against some of the FWA done in the Lakes by the parts of the team who developed the Works. Were the same people upset by the equipping of the Works too?

In reply to petegunn:
>> A very malicious and time consuming act.

Could they have used an angle grinder? Hard to see in the photos, but looks possible. That would take a matter of seconds.

In reply to ruari88: I reckon John Griffiths, Ueli Steck and Simone Moro did it and have now caused this huge fight to take attention away from the issue.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

I really enjoyed this bit!

In reply to Mungo Shuntobox:

"I hope this has been reported and the remaining cropped off bolt ends fingerprinted - you never know your luck." Word is CSI New York are so disgusted they are on the way as we speak.....

Back in the real world, we have some misguided vandelism. Bolts wars of various types are hardly new and has anyone ever been prosecuted?

I suggest that every BMC area that has a DT venue (Cumbria, Wales, Peaks, any others?) should put this on the agenda of their next meeting to get formal endorsement for DT at these specific venues. This could also do with formal approval by the BMC national council. A policy statement on the development of any further DT venues would also be useful, i.e. chossy venues not currently used for other climbing. Same for the Scottish Mountaineering Council re the Scottish venues. That way consensus could be reached. Clearly certain individuals can choose to ignore it but people got to a point where bolting became accepted in certain places after much initial controversy, so it should be possible to get there with dry tooling as well. Particularly because it's still a niche activity and most climbers don't have any issues with it as they appreciate that it's done in dingy out of the way holes!

The other key point is to clearly differentiate dry tooling (which is a sport in its own right but in the UK mostly used as training for winter climbing) from winter climbing on routes that aren't in proper winter condition. That's a completely separate debate but one thing is clear, if someone chooses to do a route that isn't in proper winter nick, that's because they have a very flexible interpretation of what 'winter condition' means and nothing to do with whether or not they go dry tooling. No one goes dry tooling and then thinks "Now that I'm fit and strong, I'll go dry tooling up Cenotaph Corner".

In reply to waiting for snow:

They have been heading up Langdale for some time: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67665

Which may, in part, be background to the actions of the phantom bolt-chopper.

In reply to SCC:


Couldn't this be said of people who place bolts too?

Reprehensible, dastardly, not very nice, caddish, "such men are the sort who would shoot a fox"... there are endless ways of describing people who took this sort of action, but cowardly is not one - in fact I'd say it would require quite a lot of courage to spend what must have been hours swinging about with the risk that at any moment a bunch of butch men (with large testicles) might come along and do very nasty things to them.

However, like suicide bombing, having courage does not imply the act is good, it's mixing up several different registers.

In reply to TobyA:

You are right, a Thesaurus is a dictionary of synonyms, but my copy of Word uses the generic term, which is good enough for me.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Not in this instance. As the people that developed this DT venue have put their names to it.
They haven't tried to hide the fact that they have bolted an area or what they were using it for.

I know it's a bit of a leftfield idea, but why don't we let this thread about the theft from and vandalism of this particular venue stay about the theft from and vandalism of this particular venue.

If you want to try and justify acts like this with comments that equate to "well, they started it by putting bolts in <insert climb or crag>" then might I suggest a new thread.

Cheerio.

Si

In reply to ruari88:

Hi all,

Firstly, I just wanted to say thanks (and I'm sure I can speak for the others who helped develop this venue on this...) for the many comments offering support for this venue. Its great to have a load of feedback from the entire climbing community after something like this as it helps clarify if the development of the venue was justified, supported by the majority, and hopefully working to control dry tooling and turn it into something positive and that can be progressed.... From the initial mention of something like this back at the BMC ethics meet and throughout the subsequent development process I can honestly say I haven't heard a negative word against this venue. There has been support from many manufacturers of kit for it and the Cumbria bolt fund were behind it all the way and offered advice, equipment and a large amount of lowers off's and bolt towards it. It has also been great to see so many in there making the most of it and enjoying the climbing even on a damp Autumn day when not much else would be on offer outside, the Industrial Sector Wall (M4 - M7) has been particularly successful and enjoyed by many.

So looking forward, it would seem the majority would like to see things tidied up and re-bolted. We have already had bolts from the Epicenter since the incident, other climbers have kindly offered up personal sets of quick draws to re-fix, and the Cumbria bolt fund has very kindly offered to try and continue its support to make the place safe again and usable. If any one does wish to contribute to the re-development of this venue, as a few have mentioned, then I'd say the Cumbria Bolt Fund is the way to go... any donations will be directly beneficial tot he Works and generally the placing and re-placing of quality bolts throughout Cumbria where it is appropriate.

Donate button on the site - http://cumbriaboltfund.outsrchosting.co.uk/

It would be great to have a statement from the people who did this so we can try and understand their motives, this could help anyone involved in the development understand further how a venue such as this can be kept from offending people. If we have no statement, we know nothing... It is easy to jump to conclusions. They certainly didn't leave the place clean, lower off stubs sticking out and nuts and sawn off pieces everywhere, the first 'litter' I've seen in their in fact! The Industrial wall has been the main target for actual damage, this was the wall that the majority of visitors benefited from. One thing I did note was that amongst all the routes that where equipped with Grivel, Petzl and DMM draws we had a few long sling extenders, these where all left behind and the better draws taken?? so it will be interesting to see if these are returned or if there was a theft element to this as well?! What the person/people who did this have done is not just made a statement against dry-toolers, but also the bolt fund and anyone who has contributed to it, and also what I think is the feeling of the general climbing community.

A few folks have mentioned the idea of using the venue for a commercial course as a possible motive. I did wonder about this myself. Whilst I could see this as being a possibility I'd struggle to see how the Works can be singled out under this justification. Most disused quarries in the Lakes and beyond, as well as single pitch crags, Ghylls etc etc are used, some very heavily, by commercial groups for various activities including climbing and abseiling. Some of these venues will have fixed gear or stakes, most will have some sort of maintained access track, some even have top bolts placed.. I have nothing against this and use many venues when working myself, those mentioned and also mountain crags, access tracks, winter venues etc etc, I'd like to think that introducing people to these experiences and the sport has a generally accepted value. So to single out the Works for this (the commercial) motive would seem wrong to me. The fact that myself and the others involved in delivering the course helped create (I think I personally have spent 18 full days putting routes together) this venue I'd have thought would give all the more reason for it being at least acceptable to use? Its normal as a provider to regularly use a venue but not necessarily contribute anything directly to its up keep as such, in terms of physical work at least. (car park fees etc may extend to up keep) Courses in the Works I think would be few and far between anyway and in terms of large commercial gain, anyone in the instructing industry will know this is not how it pans out. The course proposed for last weekend was put off as we (my company) where going to struggle to break even in fact, otherwise it probably would have run as developing this facet of the sport is an incentive to everyone who was involved and not just financial gain.

In terms of the re-build, I think with support it can be done fairly quickly. In addition to bolts we need to replace lots of hangers (bolts stubs intact), mallions and quick draws.

Any ideas, thoughts, feedback about the venue is welcome as we really want to make it as unoffensive as possible and a venue that has a value to everyone, whether a dry tooler, training winter climber, rock climber who hates seeing scratches on crags after covert training missions and has no personal interest in dry tooling, as well as non-climbers who don't like the look of insitu gear and people hanging about all day (basically no one passes through the Works who isn't there to climb)

Thanks, Paddy

In reply to paddy cave:


https://www.thebmc.co.uk/peoples-climbing-front-claim-works-chop-job

In reply to maresia:
Nice to hear they're going to give the gear back
I think this thread highlights that this 'group' hasn't done this on behalf of the people as not one person seems to be against the works

In reply to maresia:

I don't hold strong views on the core of this subject, but it's a great shame their anonymous protest and subsequent claims weren't carried out in a different and perhaps more dignified manner.

In reply to goose299:

Oh, I think you're mistaken about that. I'm against it, for example. The gentleman in the balaclava is quite right, as far as I can see, to say that dry tooling is going to lead to an increase in the number of cretins damaging rock of all sorts.

The fact that gear manufacturers see the opportunity to sell more of their gear by sponsoring said cretins doesn't exactly reassure me either.

jcm

In reply to goose299:

I think the only their protest has shown is how selfish their actions have been.

They have vandalised a climbing venue because they disagree with damage potentially being caused to climbing venues. WTF!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Well then, surely educating people to this would be more sensible that just chopping all the bolts.
i've very pro winter ethics and don't like to see people scratching up routes
In the bmc article, the spokesperson for the group states that
'The new winter guide suggests dry-tooling will keep people off out of condition crags. There’s a small flaw with this theory, it’s been shown to be absolutely b******s.'

Does anyone know how it's been shown to be the dogs dangley's as it were

In reply to maresia:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/peoples-climbing-front-claim-works-chop-job

That has to be a joke surely?

The People’s Climbing Front of the Lake District
The Lake District People’s Climbing Front

In reply to maresia:
Whilst I don't agree with what's happened. I believe they're against damaging the rock and therefore won't give two hoots about a few bolts and hangers

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Hear hear!

In reply to maresia:

I had to check the date after reading that, 28 days late.

I have often compared DT to the bolt rantings of the 80's. Is the Works the new Frankie?

In reply to goose299:

But they should care about the fact that they have now rendered a suitable location for drytooling unusable which is potentially going to encourage inappropriate drytooling use of other venues. Some really backwards logic.

It would be like someone opposed to skateboarders using stairs and walls etc. on the street destroying a skate park. A place designed to encourage boarders not to use the street.

In reply to goose299:

That isn't true. There are a relatively small number of people of people who have given support in this thread compared to the overall UKC membership. Then there are climbers who aren't part of UKC.

Did the Peoples Climbing Front raise their objections before the bolting started at the Works? Were they given chance to object during a consultation period? Just wondering if this is the first they've said/done on the matter or if they have raised objections previously. It's the first I've heard of them.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Could it not also be argued that rather than dry tooling established winter crags, a venue like this provides somewhere for them to go.

It sounds like the guys who developed The Works took a fairly considered approach to setting it up. Something that the People's Front for the Liberation of Their Fingers from their Arses didn't bother doing. If they had a genuine concern why not contact the BMC and/or the guys who set up the routes?

In reply to maresia:
I agree there, it is backwards logic
As a keen user of the works, I only hope it's back up and running soon and whoever is hiding behind the name comes forward as themselves

In reply to MJ:

Splitters!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Tons of drytooling venues exist in Colorado and Canada and yet you almost never hear anything about someone drytooling an established rock route, it simply doesn't happen.

In reply to Epsilon:

Well, except here, of course.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Seems like there's an inverse relationship between the number of established drytooling venues and the propensity for it to take place at established rock venues, rather than the direct relationship you are hypothesizing.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Who are the sponsored "cretins" of whom you speak? I don't see any sponsored climbers damaging rock.

In reply to Toby S:

It could be, yes. My guess though is that the increased interest in/fashionability of dry tooling as a result of venues like these, encouragement by gear peddlers, etc. will lead to more cretins like Mr Millstone and Mr Brean Down (to say nothing of Mr White Noise and Mr 1984), whereas a clear statement that this activity is unsustainable and doesn't have any place in the UK would be a better idea.

jcm

In reply to Offwidth:

Yeah hahahaha; hundreds of pounds of gear gone or destroyed (or even vandalised) is something I'd take seriously, so why should it not be reported to the Police and investigated properly?

In reply to Martin1978:

Either way, it looks like blackmail can be added to charges of theft.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Where exactly beyond the highly publicised Millstone case? One or two reports from one of the Lancs quarrries that I remember beyond that.

In reply to Jamie B:


Really?! You aren't looking very far.

But anyway, everyone who uses these venues is being sponsored by gear manufacturers.

jcm

In reply to Epsilon:

Do you think? We've seen it on Ben Nevis and in Langdale very recently, haven't we? Would that have happened without the legitimisation of it which venues like this represent? Indeed, is this kind of venue really playing any role in stopping that sort of thing happening? I haven't noticed it doing so. It seems to me merely to enable the more skilled (and presumably also the less skilled and hence newsworthy) to get better at it and thus get out and gain column inches, and where people in the mags lead, the mass will follow.

jcm

In reply to paddy cave:

Paddy, do you think you would have been fit enough to climb 1984 without having trained at The Works?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Try naming some names and instances and then I will have some conception of what you are talking about. "Sponsored climbers" often climb steep mixed routes under light cover, but that should not be equated to "damaging rock"

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Or perhaps if people who enjoy dry tooling where allowed to get on with it in dedicated venues then they wouldn't feel the need to dry tool established trad/sport/bouldering venues.

There's no evidence to support either theory and until there is I can't see any justification for the hundreds of pounds of damage that has been done, not to mention the tremendous effort the developers have put in that has now gone to waste.

In reply to remus:

>There's no evidence to support either theory

I don't know about that. The fact that the UK's highest-profile climber recently felt free to establish a pure dry-tooling route on the UK's most iconic mountain might be taken as some sort of evidence.

jcm

In reply to Jamie B:

>"Sponsored climbers" often climb steep mixed routes under light cover, but that should not be equated to "damaging rock"

It shouldn't?! And under no cover?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: How is that evidence? What's to say ben nevis wouldn't have a few more dry tooling routes if the works didnt exist?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The fact that he subsequently pulled the blog post without much protest after White Noise was almost unanimously condemned is probably evidence that the existence of the Works (and more relevantly, Newtyle) hasn't lead to a widespread belief that dry tooling is okay on mountain crags.

Out of interest, did noone ever climb out-of-condition routes before dry tooling venues existed?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Have you ever been winter climbing or dry tooling?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Do you understand snowed-up rock-climbing? Or do you subscribe to the common but unrealistic belief that it needs to be plated pick-deep in ice to be a winter route?

More "damage" will be done to a winter/summer route by climbing it when it is plastered in rime/powder than when bare, when placements will be far more precise.

In reply to Jamie B:
agreed

In reply to Ramblin dave:


They did. They also climbed lightly-covered rock, steep black rock and very snowy classic rock routes. And they still do. Some people dislike these activities, but they weren't caused by venues like the Works.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Do you think that people have only just started to climb in debatable conditions. (I think not)
The only difference is that everything is published online with pictures and videos within minutes of the accent.
The key issue here is educating people, what ever you're stance on this is nothing can justify the action that has been taken.
Climbing has advanced and evolved throughout its history, in its equipment and techniques and has always had its fors and againsts.
Drytooling isn't going anywhere and this incident has only given the works more positive publicity and hopefully educated some people as well.
The next step is to get the bmc to help tell people the correct information and establish some guidelines, so hopefully we can keep people from tooling on crags and develop more venues for drytooling.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

>The fact that he subsequently pulled the blog post without much protest after White Noise was almost unanimously condemned is probably evidence that the existence of the Works (and more relevantly, Newtyle) hasn't lead to a widespread belief that dry tooling is okay on mountain crags.

Well, no. But obviously DM believes it, or did believe it. No-one believed that ten years ago. Now one of our leading climbers does. How did that happen? It seems likely the movement of which The Works is part played a role. (and as you say, more relevantly, its Scottish equivalents)

jcm

In reply to DeanD:

My impression is that they are doing it more. And I don't think that a climber of DM's status would have done something like White Noise ten years ago, no.

jcm

In reply to remus:

You don't know what the word evidence means. Of course it's evidence. It isn't proof, but it's evidence.

jcm

In reply to Jamie B: I dont understand why in a small area like the lakes, that the winter activists dont just focus on winter only lines? climbing summer classics in winter(in the modern snowed up style) is clearly causing upset.. its a small,you could say fragile,climbing area. Scotland shouldnt be used in any comparison, other than from a general ethical stance.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Possibly not but the evolution of modern tools and the advance in overall climbing standards there will always be isolated incidents where someone will go against the grain.
I don't know but the transition from step cutting to tools mustn't have been a straight forward change over

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Obviously MacLeod has climbed at Newtyle a fair bit and it has no doubt improved his abilities on 'mixed' stuff, as it has many other top winter climbers. I'm pretty sure though that he would still have the desire to try these roofs if Newtyle didn't exist.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


10 years ago you didn't have multiple ascents of IXs and Xs every season. A lot has changed, and much of it for the better.

In reply to Jamie B:

They weren't caused by such venues, no. But the question is whether they will become much commoner and more widely accepted as a result of such venues.

Since you ask, I've never dry-tooled and winter climbed only in the most trivial way.

As to this sort of stuff damaging routes, it seems to be one of those things people have different opinions about depending on their preconceptions.

Here's Rick Graham, who by contrast has done a bit of winter climbing, from the 1984 thread, for example

"Some routes ( probably including 1984 ) will be unclimbable after only a few ascents."

jcm

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Possibly. But would he have thought it was acceptable?

jcm

In reply to ruari88:
You have a very strong opinion on something you havent done or don't really know a lot about

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: You are always going to get someone who pushes boundaries be that a sponsored climber testing the water, or an ill informed newbie doing something incorrect (climbing a route out of condition for example).

This doesn't speak for the 99% of climbers who operate within the "Ethics" and see the works as a venue for improvement, allowing them to remain strong throughout summer in preparation for the winter season.

The people responsible for this attack have aimed it at a tiny percentage of climbers and have in the process enraged the majority. This is the issue here.

Pete.

In reply to DeanD:

Assuming that's directed at me, I don't have a strong opinion. You should see me when I have a strong opinion.

jcm

In reply to goose299:

That's not correct, I think others have expressed the fact that they are against the works. I am not personally familiar with the venue but if placements have been chipped or artifically improved, or indeed if whole routes have been created from drilled pockets, I would certainly consider myself to be one of those 'against' it. Is there anyone familiar with the quarry who could clarify that please as such a statement is (conspicuously??) absent from the logbooks and website writeup

Also, whilst I think a dedicated natrual drytooling venue is not necessarily a bad idea, nor is it incompatable with preserving rock climbing venues, there has been a huge increase in the popularity of dry tooling, and of the concept of 'mixed/european mixed (a euphamism for drytooling?) winter routes in the last two or three seasons. Whilst this is an anecdotal observation of course, it certainly seems to exist although I don't what the correlation/causation behind it is.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
It was. No matter what you're position on the issue is, nothing justifies it. If you don't like drytooling then surely a pit in the ground away from anyone and thing would be the best place for us.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Hard to say. No doubt he knew it would be controversial but perhaps not exactly to what extent.

In reply to Aly:
The placements are a mix of natural and drilled. This quarry is unclimbable for trad or sport routes as there are no holds on it.
It is also a quarry and is not a natural crag and is there from people blowing up the rock in the first place.

In reply to ruari88:

Hmmmm.

Sounds like a pro fessional climber in the northwest?

In reply to DeanD:

I didn't say the present action was justified, though I must admit a certain admiration for it. I just said that not everyone approves of these venues, contrary to what some rather enthusiastic poster was suggesting.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Admiration???
they can't even justify it themselves

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: So you approve of people enforcing their views on others, whether they like it or not with no chance for decent conversation ?

In reply to Petarghh:

I didn't say I approved, exactly. I said I had a sneaking admiration.

I get rather tired of the squealing from bolters when their bolts get chopped, as compared to their total indifference when they put them in where they shouldn't.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


At those times there is an equal or possibly greater amount of squealing from opponents. Squealing is pretty much a constant throughout all ethical skirmishes. The good thing about today's squealing is that it has reinforced a consensus.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I this case they weren't where they shouldn't of been,

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I agree completely.


In reply to DeanD:

I'm sorry but I don't think that makes it excusable. If you can't hold the same ethics for a roadside 'training' crag as you can for another crag (mountain or otherwise) then you shouldn't bother. I'm not talking about a bit of cleaning or removing loose rock but I don't think drilled pockets, chipped edges, bolt-on holds etc. should play any part in the modern development of new crags in the UK.

I remember spying a potential new rock route in the Llanberis slate quarries a year or so ago. Went I went back to have a proper look at it it had been turned into a drytool route, with a line of bolts and drilled pockets in a ladder fashion up the middle of it. This would have been done with the same justifications you use above. I doubt it will be climbed now unless the bolts are chopped and the pockets filled.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I wasn't making a point about people moaning about their bolts being chopped.

Im just saying an activist has made a statement about a minority of climbers...

What if a "pro safety" climber took action against a minority of bold climbers and bolted a bunch of gritstone or generally bold routes as in their eyes it was "making it safe" and "reducing the risk"...

Would you approve of their measures ?

Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean you screw it up for everyone else. live and let live, if they're tooling where they shouldn't, then have a go.

In reply to Aly:
Well I defiantly don't agree with using already established trad venues to put drytooling routes on. Especially if there was a climbable route there.
But a quarry that had no interest what so ever and no use for any other climbing discipline then fair dos.

In reply to Petarghh:

>if they're tooling where they shouldn't, then have a go.

Well, that's the Popular Front's point, isn't it? "They" *are* tooling where they shouldn't, and rightly or wrongly, he thinks this will help stop that.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: it's a ridiculous way of going about it. DT isn't going any where so designated places can only be good.

In reply to DeanD:

Actually, my guess would be that it's a fashion that will disappear, rather like chalk climbing.

But time will tell, I dare say.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: But anyone could have that view over anything. It has been agreed through various organisations that the Works is a venue for dry tooling, and has been created for that specific purpose.

Its beside the point as its just going to get fixed, and repaired should further damage occur.

You cant let one elitist idiot spoil something for others just because they think they have some kind of moral high ground, I think it is obvious from the reaction that they are the ones in the wrong, personally I think the reason for this person coming forward under alias is because they may have just realised how idiotic their act was and should their true identity be found then any reputation they may have had would be ruined (and i'm guessing they don't want that!).


Pete.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Look at Norway, the US, Canada and the Alps... Mixed climbing and Dry Tooling is one of the fastest areas of progression at the moment.

In reply to Petarghh: If they have any intelligence they must realise how stupid it was.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


It clearly won't, it should be clear from this thread alone that the venue will soon be resurrected.

As to whether they "should" or "shouldn't" be tooling there, it's an unwinnable argument, and totally subjective. In fact the only way the argument is ever settled is through direct action, be it bolting or debolting.

Some would call this anarchy, and try to call a committee meeting instead. But I actually quite like it - if bolters or debolters go too far their efforts get reversed and people call them wankers on forums. But if they make sensible decisions which are broadly supported their actions will be sustained. But don't plan on doing either unless you are prepared to repeat the whole exercise when one lonely nutter decides he cares as much as you do.

In reply to Jamie B:

I meant that "they" are tooling on (eg) Ben Nevis and Flat Crag, and that the PLF think this will help stop that. Which maybe it will. I doubt they hope to put the Works out of action permanently.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Chalk climbing certainly still occurs pretty frequently. Cant imagine it was ever in vogue!

In reply to Petarghh:


Which are the organisations you're referring to? And where can I see a copy of the agreement?

Thanks.

In reply to ruari88:
People’s Climbing Front of the Lake District

It's Peoples' not People's. If your gonna be an arsehole, at least get the grammar right.

In reply to IanC
Are you sure about that Ian? If you're going to correct other people's grammar you need to be pretty sure you're right...

In reply to GPN:
I was always awful at grammar. Just felt that a UKC thread has gone on too long with out someone complaining about the grammar.

Anyway back on topic...

I hope some sensible resolution comes out of this. Both of the big stories today so surprising so as to be April fools jokes but without the funny side.

In reply to IanC:

Nope. The word "people" is already plural and not made so by the letter s.

People's = of the people (right)
Peoples' = of the peoples (wrong)

In reply to Pete Harrison Probably Banned: There is a massive list of winter ascents of various rock routes in the Lakes, Wales and Scotland. The issue here is one of conditions.

The presence of a dry tooling crag doesn't educate folk about winter conditions, correct.

Neither does wrecking said dry tooling crag.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You might be against dry tooling but would you go and vandalise a dry tooling venue, or condone those who do?

Anyway, the point is that climbing out of condition winter routes is a completely separate debate. I doubt that people who go dry tooling are more likely to climb out of condition routes. All the dry toolers I know (admittedly not that many) have sound winter ethics. Besides, a comment I've heard at White Goods more than once is 'we were going to go up to Scotland but conditions are rubbish so we headed here instead'. It gives people something to do when there's no decent winter climbing to go at.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

With all respect, I think you don't know what you're talking about. Have you actually ever been to a dry tooling venue and had a chat with the people there? Sure, sponsored climbers like Greg Boswell use dry tooling venues but the vast majority are ordinary climbers (some of them very good, others mediocre like me) who aren't sponsored and are there to train or just have something to do in the off season between summer and winter.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Nothing to do with legitimisation. If someone thinks it's ok to do a route that isn't in full winter garb, they will go and do it anyway, whether or not they have dry tooled. The difference is that with dry tooling training people can do harder routes, so you are right that the more skilled can get better at it (resulting it less rock damage!). Take away dry tooling and you will still have the same issues, just on lower grade routes. Dry tooling isn't to blame, it's a question of people's winter ethics - a very subjective area!

In reply to Misha:

>With all respect, I think you don't know what you're talking about

With all respect, I think you're a berk. They're all sponsored by gear manufacturers in the sense that gear manufacturers have donated gear to allow the venue they're using to be established.

jcm

In reply to Misha:

>If someone thinks it's ok to do a route that isn't in full winter garb, they will go and do it anyway, whether or not they have dry tooled.

Ach, come on. People think things are OK at least in part because they think other people think those things are OK.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: All forms of climbing have the capacity to "damage" the rock.

Crampons - scratch rock and expose layers to weathering
tools - also scratch and could remove loose - unfrozen blocks.
nuts / cams - scratch rock as above and have the capacity to remove rock (cams expanding behind loose flakes)
Chalk - more visible than crampon scratches and unsightly.
Cleaning new trad routes, removes lichen and exposes layers of rock to new weathering
repetitive use of hand holds - polishes the rock

etc etc... so why are some forms of damage more acceptable than others, if a trad climbers inspects a new summer line and removes loose blocks then scrubs the pitch clean, this is surely just as damaging.

Trad climbers training indoors, getting stronger so they can then go out and attempt new routes... the same argument can be used for either party. its all a bit silly really.

In reply to Petarghh: Anyone know if this wa*k*r has been caught yet?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Ok, I misunderstood you but perhaps you could have elucidated your point better for a dim-wit like me. Anyway, it isn't all sponsored by the gear manufacturers. There are some quickdraws and perhaps bolts that have been donated but a lot of personal expense and time has gone in as well. Others are better qualified to comment about the Works but I can tell you that the in situ quick draws at White Goods and Massons (of which there aren't that many anyway) are either personal donations or second hand stuff from a climbing wall that was going to be thrown away anyway. As for the bolts, as far as I know they were mostly paid for personally.

By the way, do you also object to sport crags? I don't mean retrobolted routes but sport routes that have been established where no trad routes existed or could reasonably exist due to lack of gear?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Not sure of your winter climbing experience there. If you had visited these venues, spoken to a few 'dry toolers' e.g winter climbers then this might lend your views a little more weight. You ever been to White Goods or Masson Lees? Just put up by regular climbers. Just like the bolted climbs at Cheddar, kept climbable by the local Cheddar owners - does that make you a sponsored climber?
Calling folks names suggests your arguments have run out of steam.....would have thought a troll could do better than that?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Sure - most people are influenced by others to some extent, in climbing as in other things in life. But my point is that dry tooling and winter climbing are two separate things, like sport and trad, so one doesn't really influence the other. The fact that I have done some dry tooling and know others who have doesn't mean that I'm going to do an out of condition winter route. That applies to all the winter climbers I know. I don't know anyone who thinks "there are all these dry tooling venues these days so it means it's ok to scratch up bare rock in the Pass".

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: do you know, I was really hacked off when I heard about what had happened at the works. Due to the fact of the amount of man hours and expense that myself and others had spent bolting the routes there. That was, til I read your misguided, naive views. The quote of the day from you being " I don't have a strong opinion. You want to see me when I have a strong opinion. " classic !! I'm still crying with laughter

In reply to SCC:


I'm sorry if even a mildly different point of view offends you but this is a public forum after all... maybe if there had been more discussion then someone wouldn't have gone to such lengths?

My remarks were more about the extremely childish form of several posts - as if having large sexual organs contributes anything to all this and the perfectly ridiculous accusations of "cowardice" advance the discussion a jot. It doesn't take much courage to agree with the mob, when all is said and done, does it?

It's a non issue. The real issues is whether the debolters were justified in their actions or not, and this cannot be separated from whether the bolters themselves had any absolute right to do what they did - you can't dissociate the two. To put it another way, your horror coming along and finding your work damaged may be matched by someone else coming along and seeing what you had done and being horrified by that. I'm not saying this is actually the case but clearly someone must think it is as the damage proves.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

John,

Your really letting yourself down here. I know your not a fan of our little genre of climbing...the private messages you've sent me in the past tell me that....but to admit admiration to what they did is poor form on your part.
In the past when I got annoyed with your comments I still held a small belief that they were founded on a decent bit of personal experience, in this case however, your talking about something that you admit you have never participated in and venues you have never visited.

It was myself that spent a lot of time emailing and talking to the guys at Lyon/First Ascent Marketing to get the Petzl kit donated in the first place. Yes, they knew it was for a DT venue, but weren't worried about us providing lots of feedback or press for them, it was, as the email I got back from them said "purely a case of putting something back in".

This incident has only gone and highlighted DMM & Petzls involvement and everyone should know what great companies they are helping out in the first place.

I've just had a message as well that AustriAlpin have donated 50 hangers to the rebolting of the place and will provide a further 50 at just 75p each. Bravo the Austrians.

The support for The Works is stronger than ever. A lot stronger than your voice of ill informed chatter thats for sure and come the Autumn the venue will have more routes and be back to the ultimate training venue for winter climbers that it was at the start of last week.

And whilst making trips to help in the re-boltingg this summer I may even take my trad rack and enjoy some fine Lakes classics. Dont worry I wont trash them in my rock boots and ruin the fun for everyone else.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: you are a pr..k . People have worked hard on this venue the whole of lodge close is a quarry not a natural crag. Its been bolted for years. Why haven't these bolted routes been chopped. It you and these so call lake land climbers want to meet and discuss it open then come to the place and see exactly what lodge close is its basically a shot hole. But people are trying to make it a better place. I've been there it sad something different a place to try out your skills etc.
The next skills I like to do is to get my 12 bore shot gun out and shoot you the so call do goodies or tw.ts that have ruined an excellent venue. Please note I dont dry tool but I think its a great place.

In reply to Petarghh:


Are you sure of that? As far as I can see this thread has only attracted "outraged" comments from people interested in this sort of thing, not even most frequent posters, and that's only ukc frequenters which is probably a small proportion of climbers as a whole.

In reply to IanC:


I'm not sure that good grammar goes along with being an arsehole, as this and many other threads have demonstrated In fact it doesn't seem to present any noticeable correlation.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
So it's only an issue if the 'frequent poster's' get upset?
Because that's what I read into your post

In reply to Bruce Hooker: I dont dry tool but this venue was great in a place that really isnt a beauty spot. Look at the quarry next to it. The whole of lodge close is bolted. Its got wrecked cars rusting bits of equipment everywhere the venue wasn't harming anybody. Why can't these people discuss through the right channels. Also by your comments and an other guy on here are in favour of what had been done.
What I think you should do before making further comment is to visit the place as i have done and form a justified opinion or shut the f..k up.

In reply to tom290483:

>in this case however, your talking about something that you admit you have never participated in and venues you have never visited.

Yes and no. I've been to Ben Nevis, I've been to Flat Crag, I've been to Gable Crag and I've been to the Northern Corries. The latter two are to a certain extent already trashed by winter climbers and I can do without the first two being.

I suspect that the PLDF or whatever they're called are right to think that venues like the Works will accelerate this process, especially in view of the rather obvious personal link between it and one particular controversial ascent in the Lakes. I don't need to visit the Works or try dry tooling myself to have that suspicion.

That doesn't mean they're right in what they've done, but like Jamie B, I always tip my hat to anyone who cares enough to do this sort of thing, even if I might not agree on the given occasion.

In reply to various other charmless critics who I can't be bothered to reply to individually - you really overestimate the extent to which I care about dry tooling. I just thought the thread needed a bit of a corrective, that's all. My view is the very widespread one that DT is a laughable pastime, which is slightly deplorable and worrying but no more than that. We'd be better off without it, but there are worse things.

jcm

In reply to stuart58:

Oh, and I've been to Hodge Close, of course.

Assuming that's what you mean by 'lodge close'.

jcm

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
There have been a few people who said they don't dry tool but are shocked etc by what happened. And very few have been anti DT. The thread has had over 12,000 views. Assuming those with a strong view would post something, I can only assume that most people aren't too bothered by the existence of dry tooling and/or share the general view that this vandalism was unacceptable. I don't know who the regular posters are - perhaps you could email the all to ask their view

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Again, this never happens in continental Europe, Canada, Norway, Colorado, Alaska, New Hampshire, or anywhere else where venues for M-style drytooling and mixed climbing exist side-by-side with rock (both sport and trad) and alpine objectives.

Is it your contention that British climbers are inherently incapable of distinguishing one type of ascent from another, and what venues are appropriate for what type of climbing? Surely you don't have such a low opinion of us as a group relative to climbers of other nationalities.

In reply to all:

I have never been to the crag in question and I don't indulge in this form of climbing, but a few comments and questions...

Does anyone objecting to the development of this crag as a DT venue have any plans to put up trad or sport routes in the quarry?
Is DTing here likely to damage the natural environment more than other forms of climbing carried out elsewhere?

I thought the main reason for people's objection to this sort of thing was that it might damage or threaten more "traditional" routes. If this place really is just a damp, loose hole in the ground with no potential for or history of other types of climbing can we really apply the "thin end of the wedge" argument? How is it any different from dedicated sport venues, or can I assume that the people's whatever front are against those too?

Strikes me as an ill- considered act, not thought through properly. If it's a dedicated venue with no potential for other climbing and the development is OK with the land owner... well it's already been said by others.

In reply to 1234None:
Has anyone noticed the severity of these sort of attacks is increasing? It started with classic rock routes being climbed in less than winter conditions, then tooling classics in 'non' tooling venues, Millstone and Denham for example, and now this latest act. It seems there is a fair share of extremists on both sides which is worrying for someone who sits in the middle like me.

To add my opinion as someone with no (current) self-interest in dry tooling or winter climbing, I think this 'action' is stupid, counter-productive and wrong, and I hope that the venue is soon returned to its former state and not vandalised further.

However this event has pointed out to me that dry tooling venues exist, increasing the possibility that I might go dry tooling (in appropriate venues) in the future...

The people who wrote the email are also clearly stupid, as indicated by this terrible comma splice:
"There's a small flaw with this theory, it's been shown to be absolutely b******s."

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Not at all offended, just that the bolt debate is a separate issue to the theft from and vandalism of this DT venue in a crappy quarry that holds no interest for sport or trad climbers. Hence my suggestion for another thread.


Yes you can, and should.
Otherwise it leads to any action being acceptable in any case where you don't like what someone has done.
There's a guy that abandons his car in our street - he clearly can't be bothered to park considerately. I don't damage or steal his car though - and if I did I would be in the wrong.
I'm sure I was told as a kid that two wrongs don't make a right. Or something...



Err, not my work Bruce - I've never dry tooled and doubt I'd have the skill or strength to get up anything at the Works.
I don't think the people that did this were "horrified" at the bolts in a crappy pit. They just don't like drytooling.
I would guess because they are too small minded to realise that climbing winter routes in non winter conditions has nothing to do with this DT venue.

For the record - I don't and never have dry tooled so have no axe to grind (haha!).
I think the actions of the thieves and vandals were completely wrong and would have no sympathy were they to be arrested and charged for the theft and destruction of property.

Good luck to the guys that put effort, time and money in developing the Works, I hope that they can get it up and running soon.

Si

In reply to SCC:


And it shows !

The thing you seem to miss is that one man's vandalism is another man's good work. If you approve one group doing something on a crag which isn't theirs simply because they like doing it you can't really, from a moral point of view, criticize someone else who does the same thing, but the other way around.

I haven't done either, neither bolted and chipped or chopped bolts, by the way, but I do feel that in a small island like Britain the little we have in the way of natural rock requires protection unless you want it to end up like most low level crags on the continent... or worse as there are many times more crags in Europe.

I think we owe a more ecological climbing ethic to future generations - look how the crags have already suffered after not even a century of climbing as a mass activity.

In reply to IanC:

Regardless of the fact that your 'correction' is incorrect, this is an issue of punctuation, not grammar.

Also, as has already been mentioned, it's 'you're', not 'your'.

Must try harder.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I don't think I'm missing that point, what I'm saying is that it doesn't really apply here.

Looking at the pictures on the Works website:

http://mountaincircles.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/works-lake-district-dry-tooli...

I would say that the contention that this place is of no interest to trad or sport climbers seems fair.

I assume that the permission of the land owner was sought and granted before the bolts were placed?

Taking both of these points into account, the action taken by the choppers would seem to be destruction for the sake of it - or more likely to prevent others enjoying an activity that they don't hold with.

You can't honestly look at the pictures of this place and think that it's a potential trad or sport venue that has been ruined - to pretend otherwise (not saying you have btw) is as dishonest as the theft of equipment that started this whole thread. Ok, maybe not quite that dshonest, but you get my point.

Si

In reply to ruari88:
All the gear (apart fromm the Grivel draw's) have been found buried in a hole near the works

In reply to SCC:

>You can't honestly look at the pictures of this place and think that it's a potential trad or sport venue that has been ruined

I don't know about that, actually. I suspect Hodge Close itself once looked quite similar. It's hard to believe that at least the easier lines couldn't be climbed sport-style. Not that the toilers have ruined them for that purpose, exactly.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I get a sneaky suspicion that you don't even go climbing

In reply to SCC:


The activity they don't hold with is the climbing of rock routes in unsuitable non winter conditions - whether their action here helps in that regard is moot

In reply to xplorer:

I don't. Never.

I have a sneaky suspicion that your profile can't be correct.

jcm

In reply to SCC:


Do we know if that's the case? Or if indeed any other sort of consensus was established before the bolting etc. was done? I asked this same question above, and am curious to know the answer.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I presume that the person or persons who damaged the boulder problems at Robin Hoods Stride in an attempt to stop people bouldering (polishing holds, chalking up rock) was equally right in your eyes? Or are there different sorts of climbers who damage rock - dry toolers all 'cretins' and 'buerks' (more insults - poor form for a troll, or again run out of arguments), boulderers and trad OK ? What about sport climbers, good or bad? Lets go chop the draws on Cheddar sport routes in an effort to stop polish elsewhere - ok or not?
Off climbing now, maybe see you out there on the crag sometime or just playing chess as you claim to not climb anymore?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I agree we need to protect the crags but DT venues are specifically chosen to be in places that are of no interest for trad or sport due to being chossy holes with no existing routes and often being impossible to climb conventionally (look at the photo!). If someone wanted to put up routes there, surely they would have done by now. Eg Masson Lees has been extensively bolted by Gary Gibson with some good routes and some chossy routes but even he didn't think the DT area was of interest for sport climbing! Similarly the Works is near an existing sport venue I believe but again has had no interest from sport or trad climbers. White Goods has bands of shale running through the overhangs, you could do some of the routes as suicidal trad or sport but again no one has been interested in that. I'm all for preserving the crags and generally against retro bolting but let's maintain a sense of perspective. We aren't talking about Stanage here or even Horseshoe Quarry.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I have a sneaky suspicion that your profile can't be correct.

Bit vague

In reply to Misha:

I should really let others argue this point but I'll try to say what I gather the argument is, it's not even just the question of this place itself, the objection is to the increasing damage caused by "dry toolers" to crags in the Lakes and elsewhere. The attack against this quarry was because they see it as a place involved in promoting an activity they consider deplorable.

It a valid argument, a chicken and egg situation... some prefer the chicken others the egg.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

We all knew you would have a very opinionated say on the pathetic attempt to ruin a dry tooling venue. Just imagine if all the sports routes were stripped or trad routes bolted, you wouldn't be happy.

Don't even try and defend your pathetic justification.

In reply to xplorer:


'We'? Speak for yourself.


A truly stupid post. Congratulations.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

I take it your a member

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I feel you may have misrepresented me somewhat here. I believe that self-regulation works, but most definitely do NOT tip my hat to these guys.

In reply to xplorer:
Just imagine if all the sports routes were stripped or trad routes bolted, you wouldn't be happy.


What a silly comment. If that were to happen no-one would be 'happy'. And I don't think any of the posters on this thread would be either.

Mind. I could support a bit of de-bolting, me

In reply to andyathome: Everybody STOP , the works is back on track after todays hard work by a few dedicated climbers. whilst everybody else have been talking about it they have been acting, ie doing. The re bolting has started, lets be posative and move on.

In reply to xplorer:

It seems you have the same problem with the word "opinionated" as others do with "cowardly". You take it to mean someone who disagrees with you, whereas it means something else. On this thread I haven't been opinionated, I just haven't jumped in with the howling pack, and this seems to be something you find unforgivable, infuriating.... all I can say is you are headed for blood pressure problems as you'll have to get used to many, many people who don't agree with you in the future.

As for imagining all sports routes stripped of bolts.... that would be very heaven but I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime. One day perhaps, when people see sense and the present fads are seen for what they really are this may come about, but I won't see that, evolution of a species is a very slow process.

In reply to andyathome:

How is it different? I'd love to know if anyone actually ever climbed at the works before it was a dry tooling venue.

I understand that people are against dry tooling, but what happend last week is a disgrace, by sad pathetic individuals, that will never admit to doing it, they just don't have the minerals, that's why they don't dry tool

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

No no Bruce, I'm quite happy, you don't infuriate me, your someone who I will never meet.

I've come to accept that there's a small percentage of "climbers" that are stubborn cowards who won't accept change. Who love acting the hero. I've also noticed that its a small majority that won't accept that the damage was completely out of order.

In reply to xplorer:


Que? You are sure you are actually replying to MY post and not somebody else's? I've never had a go at The Works.

P.S. You are suggesting that you have to have mujo cajones to have the ability to clip into pre-placed draws whilst hanging off ice axes and placing your front point(s) into prepared slots?

In reply to andyathome:


No offence but again I've made an observation. It seems to be the older generation that have problems with dry tooling.

Just an observation

In reply to xplorer:

It will be interesting to see, if the culprit turns out to be one of our very top climbers, if the accusations of cowardice are bandied about so freely.

In reply to xplorer:

You have a go at me because I'm old? And not because of ANYTHING I've said on this thread?
Just where are you coming from......

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I'm getting a bit bored of making the point that dry tooling and climbing out of condition winter routes are two different things. I dry tool occasionally. I've also walked away from routes that weren't in condition and instead gone and done something else that was in. So would most winter climbers, whether or not they dry tool.

If the objection is to winter climbing on out of condition rock routes then by all means get the ethical debate going through the BMC area meetings, climbing magazines and here on UKC and try to change people's attitudes that way. Whereas vandalising a DT venue is misguided, counterproductive and unacceptable. These idiots are just trying to make a point out of spite. If they think that their actions will stop someone who is prepared to winter climb an out of condition route, they are naive and deluded. People will do that whether or not they dry tool - it's a question of individual ethics and that's a matter of educating people, not trashing venues that others have put a lot of time and money into creating.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

It will not be a top climber, stop being so naive

In reply to andyathome:

Not just you

In reply to Misha:


Me too, the theory that the two are linked is pretty flawed and largely circulated by those with experience of neither.

Would I jump on a virtually black Agag's Groove just because it looks a bit like the place I go training? Of course not.

In reply to xplorer:

You must know something I don't.

In reply to Jamie B:


So who IS admiting to having the experience of climbing out of condition routes ? someone is doing it and there is a fair chance that they are the sort of people who will be attracted to dry tooling venues, isn't there ?

In reply to andyathome:



He could be having a go at me too, I'm old on paper too

In fact I had a look at the profiles of the more outraged posters, those who spoke of "balls" and "cowardice", and noticed that they tended to be young, but I decided not to mention this to avoid being accused of 'youthism'.

In reply to Jamie B:


Fixed that for you, as they say.

jcm

In reply to Misha:


But one can also argue with some justification IMO that it's dry tooling, bolting, chipping and the general encouragement of these and similar activities that is the cause of "trashing", now and even more so as time goes on.

A more sustainable approach to outdoor activities had become a fairly accepted attitude not that long ago, until bolting spread like fire in much of the climbing world - hence Messner's famous "Murdering the Impossible" text - now the swing seems to be going the other way, partly due to a change of attitude towards "junk climbing" but IMO much more to do with commercial interests getting involved, and sizing up nice little earners - how long does a pair of crampons last used on rock rather than ice or snow?

Whatever, both sides exist to this argument and neither has a divine right to the moral high ground - certainly not the drilling and chipping side as this thread mostly seems to suggest, but here I'm showing my own viewpoint.

In reply to GrahamD:

Based on the small number of people who dry tool I know I'd say the two don't follow.

The logic to the vandalism is like smashing up a velodrome because a cyclist cut in front of you on your way to work.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think Paddy can answer that slur more knowledgeably and eloquently than me. Suffice to say that I believe the *urge* to climb steep snowless rock and the *training* to do so are separate concerns - most of the folk who use DT venues don't go near uber-steep, perma-black terrain in the mountains. But they do push their grade on white things. Is this bad?

In reply to xplorer:

Re your profile: it just seemed extraordinary that someone who had only been climbing 1-3 years should be quite such a cocksure gobshite. So I imagined that part of your profile must be wrong.

It also seemed surprising that someone who claims to go out every weekend should only be capable of a standard of rock and winter climbing which most people attain on their first day outside. Indeed, I wouldn’t have thought it was physically possible to be as useless as that, barring actual disabilities such as missing a limb or the like. So, again, I assumed that part of your profile must be wrong.

Happy to be told it’s accurate, of course.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Do you want to provide any sort of actual evidence that there's a causal link between the existence of dry tooling venues and people doing out of condition mixed routes? It seems to me like a fairly specious argument given that anyone who's been involved in the climbing world for long enough to climb at that standard will be well aware of what the local winter ethics are and well aware of why The Works - being a dry tooling venue in a disused quarry - is different from a historic mountain crag.

Tbh, people were making dubious calls on winter conditions before any dry tooling venues existed, and it seems far more likely that the recent cases are just more of those dubious calls rather than otherwise intelligent people thinking "hey, it's got no ice on it but I can tool up dry rock in an otherwise unused choss hole so I might as well sod the ethics and do it here as well."

In reply to Papillon:

The logic to the vandalism is not the same as the logic that says that the people tempted to scratch up out of conditon rock routes are likely also to be tempted by dry tooling in more acceptable surroundings. Its all the same macho playing around with shiny boys toys ironmongery in an environment they were never designed for.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

What sort of evidence did you have in mind? Causal links are awkward things to prove.

Why don't we do this the other way round? You produce some evidence it ain't so.

jcm

In reply to Misha:


I think the problem is that saying something repeatedly doesn't actually make it any more true or compelling.

Of course they are two different things in a sense. The question is whether the proliferation of one will increase the incidence of the other.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

There's a certain irony to you saying that at this point in the argument.

In reply to GrahamD:


I don't think you'll get many folk admitting to climbing routes out of condition! But I can certainly in my own experience think of occasions when we did a route which was a bit questionable and which others would have called black.

It happens. People get stoked to do something, travel a long way, devote time, money and energy to the project then fail to be deterred by sub-optimal conditions. In my experience it is less satisfying than the full "white-point", but rather more soulful than retreating to the cafe.

Is this the crime of the century? Not sure. I think the "damage" and "scratching" arguments are red-herrings. Any ascent of a snowed-up rock route will scratch it, end of, regardless of the extent of the cover. Some summer ascensionists despair of scratches on these routes, and maybe if the route has a long history as a classic rock climb they have a right? Maybe that's a separate discussion, but it's only ever going to be a theoretical one, as nobody will be physically prevented from doing these routes in winter.

It's been happening for a long time, and has nothing to do with the emergence of DT training venues.

In reply to GrahamD:

No it doesn't follow. The latter is a training the venue for winter climbing, not a rock climbing venue. The former is on rock climbing venues. The only people I know who use the dry tooling venues are experience climbers who are well aware of this. See second post on this thread.

You're just speculating.

In reply to Papillon:

I don't know why you people keep ignoring the fact that the leading proponent of the Works has also been a leading figure in taking Lakes winter climbing into places where a lot of local hard climbers don't think it should go.

It just seems childish to me to go on saying that DT and climbing out-of-condition winter routes are not connected in the light of that fact.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Christ, why is it whenever an argument on UKC occurs, there's always someone who has to mention grades etc? Willy waving a**eholes!
Just because you can climb harder, doesn't mean you're opinion is any more valid. According to your profile, you're 50. Start acting like that and not like you're in the playground

At the end of the day, people can climb but be comfortable in the easy grades and not want to push their grade and still have their own opinion, which should be equally as valid

In reply to Papillon:


Only if the winter climbing venue has no snow or ice and only rock to climb, that is.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

'you people'? I aint part of a group it's a personal opinion. I'm not ignoring anything as I don't know what or who you are talking about. My only interest in this comes from questions I've asked climbers I know and trust, who use these venues, and are critical of climbing winter routes out of condition.

In reply to Papillon:
He's referring to this argument
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67665

In reply to GrahamD:

I don't ice climb so I can only go off what I'm told. In this case it's your word against that of people I know and have climed with, who tell me these venues are useful training for ice climbing.

In reply to goose299: Thanks.

In reply to Papillon:


I'm sure they are in a general fitness sort of way. Even better for training for climbing dry rock with ice tools though.

In reply to Petarghh:
Go on Pete lad! Day off work? ha

In reply to goose299: Aye !

Just trying to make a balanced argument for people to decide what the issue is for themselves.

In reply to goose299:

>At the end of the day, people can climb but be comfortable in the easy grades and not want to push their grade and still have their own opinion, which should be equally as valid

I don't agree. I'm not sure what a 'valid' opinion would be exactly, but in my view someone who has been climbing five minutes is not entitled to have their views on ethical issues given equal consideration as someone who has been climbing thirty years, given the difference in experience.

The same goes for people who only want to go out and bumble. Nothing wrong with that, but they shouldn't at the same time expect their opinion to carry equal weight with those who devote far more time and effort to the game.

Just checked your profile. I see you're crap too. Somehow I thought as much. And training to be an instructor. Yippee.

jcm

In reply to Papillon:

>'you people'? I aint part of a group

What?! Not even the group of 'people'?

Given the absurd ignorance your last posts have demonstrated
of the history which the BMC email (and indeed the thread) suggest lie behind this episode, would a period of silence on your part not perhaps be a good idea?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I give up, you're a massive tool

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
You should probably update your profile - you seem to have missed out all the hard winter climbing experience that's given you so much insight into how people like Paddy Cave think and why they make the decisions they do.

In reply to Petarghh:

You seem to have misread the posts of a number of other people.

You thought they said, ‘no-one ever climbed routes which were out of condition before dry tooling came along’.

They actually said, ‘people climbing routes out of condition is a growing problem and the legitimisation of dry tooling is exarcebating it’.

jcm

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I don't have any, bar what he posts, of course, and more to the point what he doesn't post.

As I said before, I don't actually have a strong opinion. It always irks me though to see the sort of stupidity which the pro-toilers are demonstrating in pretending there is no debate which needs to be had.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

No, I was making the point that people were climbing routes out of condition before dry tooling. and the legitimisation of tooling is only making people stronger. it doesn't educate them either way about winter conditions.

So one could argue that the same problem persists, you just have stronger people making poor judgement - not necessarily more.

In reply to Petarghh:


I grasp that. But since that point has never been in debate and had nothing to do with the worries people express about dry tooling, I supposed that you must have misread what people were saying.

>So one could argue that the same problem persists, you just have stronger people making poor judgement - not necessarily more.

Well, you could. But since when has the availability of all-weather, bolted venues where the punters can have a go at an activity *not* led to an increase in the number of those punters, and hence to them seeking to take over existing routes where they can perform their new activity? How did that go with sport climbing, I wonder?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

And JCM spits his dummy..... just another day on UKC!

In reply to Petarghh: You seem to be drawing the link

More people tooling = more winter climbs being attempted out of condition

This is based on the assumption that the people tooling do not have any ethical consideration for the winter conditions.

Again it is a weak argument, I knew what winter conditions were when I started out, I wasn't tempted out onto lines that weren't in condition.

If anything, the issue here is progression - in many cases of routes being done out of condition, it would seem to be people pushing their grade or trying to prove how "good" they are.

Now they have venues where they can hang upside down to their hearts content and show off the guns without scratching up routes out of nick.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Out of interest, how many years does one have to be climbing for before one can become a cocksure gobshite? "More than 20 years", perhaps.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yes there is temptation - "Ive just climbed dry tooling route X and now lets go try out these skills on a real winter route", but there is a very very small minority (who i am totally against) that would go and attempt the winter line when it wasn't in condition.

I spent most of this winter looking at weather / condition reports trying to decide where to climb, i backed off several routes that were not in condition, and changed objectives a number of times.

Dry toolers are against people climbing out of condition climbs, it is these "Punters" that are ruining it for everyone else. I agree that to an extent the glamorisation of this type of climbing is bringing people to it that wouldn't have done otherwise. But as climbers we cant stop them, we can only strive to make sure that the training venues arent abused. and that damage doesnt occur to the mountain crags. You cant remove the entity all together just because it is abused by a minority.

I think you make valid points, and i agree you may not like the direction climbing is headed, but a few people with hacksaws aren't going to stop it unfortunately, and i dont mean that in an offensive way, I hate to see crags get damaged too.

Pete

In reply to Petarghh:

I should start by saying I have nothing against the Works, it seems like an excellent use of the limited climbing resources we have in the UK. That said I think there is a link between dry tooling and people pushing the boundaries of what is an acceptable winter route (both in terms of conditions and location). For one thing people keep banging on about how these dry tooling venues are training for winter climbing. Obviously they are not (hands up who's done a figure of four on a Scottish winter route) but people new to climbing will assume that's what winter climbing is all about. When they go to apply their new found skills they will look for clean steep rock and wait for a light frost.

As you say, people climbed out of condition routes before the Works was developed, but then they were considered out of condition and such ascents met with the opprobrium they deserved - I don't think that's the case any longer. Maybe it's just on here but for every ascent which crosses the line there are any number of apologists lining up to defend.

Developing these venue also creates a demand for other similar venues. Threads on here suggest that people now see it as right that there should be a DT venue in all climbing areas.

In reply to Petarghh:

>More people tooling = more winter climbs being attempted out of condition

>This is based on the assumption that the people tooling do not have any ethical consideration for the winter conditions.

Not necessarily. It might equally well be based on the following lines of thought:

A certain proportion of the population is inclined to behave irresponsibly.

More tooling=a higher proportion of the population winter climbing.

A higher proportion of the population winter climbing = more irresponsible people climbing = more winter climbs being attempted out of condition.

My guess is that there's more to it than this merely numerical argument, and clearly the chopper thinks so (if his email is genuine), but as several posters have tediously pointed out, it's hard to prove that absolutely.

Look at that idiot (another instructor) taking his tools on to Brean Down recently and posting online videos of himself doing it, for example. If DTing is producing people who behave like that in summer, then one suspects it's also producing people who are going to behave absurdly in winter.

jcm

In reply to Petarghh:

I think the crux of the issue is that it's not just one or two punters climbing out of condition routes, but that the leading developers of The Works also happen to be the leading proponents of climbing existing (hard) mountain rock routes in the Lakes in winter conditions. Specifically the rather controversial ascent of 1984, the crux of which was allegedly totally bare.

In reply to Petarghh:


Isn't that pretty obviously true though?

Are people really training on such crags just to climb on such crags? Not for using the techniques they practise elsewhere? Or do you maintain (genuine question) that people training on overhanging rock on chipped holds and fixed protection doing it solely to improve their ability to climb on ice?

It seems unlikely to me. Even if it may be true for a minority of very high level ice-climbers what about the relative novices, like some posting on this thread, who have a go on such venues, enjoy the fun, and then look around for somewhere to use their newly acquired "skills", aren't they as likely as not to just have ago on anything they can see, as long as there aren't too many people about and there's a dusting of snow?

Obviously no one has any statistical evidence to answer this question but anecdotal evidence seems to suggest it could happen - there's even a load of photos which have just been posted on this thread showing people in crampons on dry rock for a start.

PS. to Petarghh and Tyler: our posts crossed, you've covered much the same points as me since I typed this post.

In reply to Petarghh:


I'm not sure how you can make the distinction. I'd have thought you will get at least as many punters coming to the Works as you will committed winter climbers. Why? Because there are lots of people who like to be associated with the more dangerous and heroic sides of climbing (like winter mountaineering) but just aren't cut out for it. You see them jumping off grit aretes onto pads and claiming trad credentials, you see them in the Guides Office in Cham talking big routes but never actually doing them because of 'conditions' and now you will see them at the Works working big number routes convincing themselves they're training for the hard winter routes. Sooner or later they'll go to Scotland and they won't be happy to jump on a sketchy Scottish gully but go for something they know, something steep, and well protected; something they can dog or have done in summer. These people do exist and this will happen, the question is just how many of these types the Works et al will generate and how much damage they do before dry tooling becomes unfashionable (in the way tht head pointing for punters has).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You think way to hard my friend.

Who do you think you are, your a nobody that doesn't climb, your opinion does not count

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


No you're talking rubbish. Dicussions with people who do use these venues are obviously relevant to this thread. After reading about Paddy Caves ascent of 1984 it's obvious to me that there are more direct ways to object to his ascent than attacking another venue he helped develop. As I understand it the Works was developed through consensus, were as Paddy's descision to put 1984 up was clearly his decision alone.

In reply to GrahamD:

Yes but that doesn't mean they do out of condition routes BECAUSE they go dry tooling. They do out of condition routes because that's what they want to do (and they might not see them as out of condition, the line is fairly blurred but that's a separate debate). Some of these people also happen to go dry tooling for training and/or fun. That is a consequence, not the cause.

Sure, there are instances of people doing out of condition routes. These mainly fall into three categories: 1. Selfish people who don't care about ethics and the mountain environment - these people will do it regardless of whether they dry tool. 2. People new to winter climbing who aren't familiar with the ethics - again, they will do it regardless of whether they have tried dry tooling (which in many cases they haven't) but will hopefully soon learn from other winter climbers what is and isn't acceptable. 3. Top level climbers who are pushing the boundaries - they almost certainly dry tool but that isn't why they are doing these routes, it's because they want to push the boundaries (which in many cases are blurred anyway).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You know, I at least respected your opinion, even if I completely disagreed with it....then you went and said this:

And now I think you're a dick. It is completely unnecessary to start taking about grades here, don't you think?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Could the same thing not be said about trad vs. sport though? A full trad rack and a pair of double ropes costs a lot more than a set of quickdraws and a single. Why is it that whenever drytooling is brought up we hear about the nefarious influence of "commercial interests" but not with regards to them pushing everyone to own a rack of each type of cam (brightly anonized to draw one's eye at the shop), nuts of all shapes and sizes, and so on?

In reply to xplorer:
Like

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Yep, definitely a dick. Though I suppose my opinion means nothing, seeing as i've only been climbing for 13 years, useless, really?

In reply to Dan Lane:


You might have noticed that I didn't start until the gentleman I was talking too started talking about age.

Besides, actually I don't. The grades people climb reflect (obviously not in a linear way, but well enough) the amount of effort they put in and the amount of involvement they have with the sport. The opinions of, eg, Dave Birkett count for more than the opinions of xplorer, and rightly so. Anyone who starts saying 'my opinion's as good as yours even though I know nothing about the subject' needs to be called out as a fool.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Amusing coming from someone who was subtly slagging off Dave Mac earlier in the thread.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Gardening routes and trundling loose blocks also changes the natural looks crags (in fact it has far more visual impact that tool scratches) but I guess you don't object to that because it creates rock routes. Popular routes are getting very polished, which trashes the rock and is at least as visible as tool scratches (think Stoney, Chudleigh, grit classics) but again I guess you don't object to that because it's due to climbing in rock shoes. But sport routes (which the vast majority of climbers accept in designated venues) and dry tooling (which the vast majority of climbers don't care about and accept in designated venues) are a problem in your eyes. A case of double standards?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Dave's take on things

youtube.com/watch?v=jNrdI1nUPmM&

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I know lots of winter climbers and a few dry toolers so my comments are based on what I see and hear people doing and saying. Whereas you've admitted that you've never really winter climbed so I assume you don't know that many winter climbers and aren't in turn with the ethics out there on the crags. When was the last time you discussed mixed climbing or dry tooling down the pub or at a crag with people who actually do it? Do you actually know anyone who has said 'I've been dry tooling so now I'm going to do mixed route with no snow, ice or frozen turf on them'? A good pronciple to follow is 'speak not of what you know not'. Otherwise you run the risk of coming across as a fool.

In reply to Misha:


No, but encouraging (even glamourising through sponsorship) dry tooling for the sake of dry tooling substantially increases the pool of climbers capable of climbing dry rock with ice tools (ie dry tooling at a different venue). Therefore the presence of dedicated dry tooling venues increases the probability of people dry tooling their way up rock routes.

This, I think, is the point that the Lakedistrict Peoples Front is trying to make.

In reply to Papillon:
I'm pretty sure that was done with tongue firmly in cheek.

In reply to goose299: I'm pretty sure too.

In reply to GrahamD:

And yet, again, this doesn't happen virtually anywhere that drytooling is relatively popular/established. Why are we supposed to believe that Brits are somehow less capable of distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable venues for it than Europeans, Canadians, or Americans?

People have been M-climbing at Vail and Ouray for nearly 20 years, but no one shows up at Rifle in the summer to drytool a sport route.

In reply to Papillon:

Like.