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Earlier this year the REI Co-op (Recreational Equipment, Inc.) commissioned a nationwide study in the US on women in the outdoors.Read more
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In reply to UKC News:
It's always going to be difficult to get equal representation in outdoor news and media because the majority on news is focused around hardest, fastest, biggest etc. Which is understandable since pushing the boundaries of a sport does generate a lot of excitement and interest.
Unfortunately first ascents/absolute fastest times are always going to get a bit more kudos than first female assents/fastest female and through both biology and proportional representation in sport, men do tend to get the vast majority of hard first ascents/fastest times/whatever metric your particular outdoor pursuit is measured in.
This kind of article does seem to give the impression that women can only be inspired by a female role model though, which I'm sure is not true. There are plenty of female athletes who I find inspiring (Shauna, Ashima, Nicky Spinks to name a few) and I'm sure many women find inspiration from male role models.
Why does a role model have to be the same gender as you?
It's always going to be difficult to get equal representation in outdoor news and media because the majority on news is focused around hardest, fastest, biggest etc. Which is understandable since pushing the boundaries of a sport does generate a lot of excitement and interest.
Unfortunately first ascents/absolute fastest times are always going to get a bit more kudos than first female assents/fastest female and through both biology and proportional representation in sport, men do tend to get the vast majority of hard first ascents/fastest times/whatever metric your particular outdoor pursuit is measured in.
This kind of article does seem to give the impression that women can only be inspired by a female role model though, which I'm sure is not true. There are plenty of female athletes who I find inspiring (Shauna, Ashima, Nicky Spinks to name a few) and I'm sure many women find inspiration from male role models.
Why does a role model have to be the same gender as you?
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In reply to UKC News:
I agree totally with Lee's post above but would also like to hear people's comments in relation to the UK climbing scene.
My personal viewpoint, as a weak male punter, is that climbing is a pretty inclusive sport/pastime, regardless of age, gender or ability. At the high end, there are all sorts of role models doing all sorts of different things and many of them are not "typical athletes" - Kev Shields, for example?
In the mid-grades, climbing is a pretty level playing field between males/females - individuals may have their strengths/weaknesses but I would expect it to balance out to commitment/experience overall. I know it can get a bit more "tops off" at the tougher end of the scale/bouldering, but I don't think this is reflective of the majority.
This just leaves the social/sexual dynamic, which is more difficult to quantify but I would still be surprised to hear that UK climbing clubs/walls/crags are terrible places for females to hang out. I'm confident that the women I climb with are far more concerned about the weather we're likely to encounter at the crag rather than the possibility of bumping into a sexist pig!
Just my 2 cents worth but happy to consider I may have my blinkers on.
J
I agree totally with Lee's post above but would also like to hear people's comments in relation to the UK climbing scene.
My personal viewpoint, as a weak male punter, is that climbing is a pretty inclusive sport/pastime, regardless of age, gender or ability. At the high end, there are all sorts of role models doing all sorts of different things and many of them are not "typical athletes" - Kev Shields, for example?
In the mid-grades, climbing is a pretty level playing field between males/females - individuals may have their strengths/weaknesses but I would expect it to balance out to commitment/experience overall. I know it can get a bit more "tops off" at the tougher end of the scale/bouldering, but I don't think this is reflective of the majority.
This just leaves the social/sexual dynamic, which is more difficult to quantify but I would still be surprised to hear that UK climbing clubs/walls/crags are terrible places for females to hang out. I'm confident that the women I climb with are far more concerned about the weather we're likely to encounter at the crag rather than the possibility of bumping into a sexist pig!
Just my 2 cents worth but happy to consider I may have my blinkers on.
J
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In reply to SuperLee1985:
>Why does a role model have to be the same gender as you?
That is a very interesting observation and shows some form of slight sexism in itself.
>Why does a role model have to be the same gender as you?
That is a very interesting observation and shows some form of slight sexism in itself.
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In reply to SuperLee1985:
You're right, role models if you're going to have them can be of either sex, I can see while a woman might relate more to a female role model in very narrow ways but in the broader perspective of climbing and overall attitude to life I don't think there is any requirement for them to be gender specific. Personally I don't have any climbing role models, I don't feel the need to try and emulate the climbing or lifestyle of any well known climbers, male or female. I simply go about my climbing and my life in my own way, it is maybe not perfect, it is maybe not going to lead me to the maximum possible performance but it gives me fulfillment and fits within my broader life.
As for > "6 in 10 women say that men’s interests in outdoor activities are taken more seriously than women’s."
I don't really know what this means, presumably if men and women's interests in outdoor actives were taken exactly as seriously as each other then if you asked a lot of people who's is the more serious then you'd expect about a 50-50% split. So okay, there is a 10% leaning towards men's interests here which I wouldn't really consider much of an issue when you consider men in general do take their recreational activities (outdoor or not) much more seriously than women. By which I mean tend to focus more on performance than simply using it as a social or fun activity.
Straying a bit from the video now I think people need to look at this supposed sexual inequality in climbing and ask is it not largely just insecurity about being in a climbing wall full of people where you're abilities put you quite low down on the ability scale?
In any sport, you get natural hierarchy's which form based on ability because naturally you're going to want to train with people of a similar ability to your own so people split off into groups. In a climbing / bouldering wall situation, anyone, male or female operating at a low level can feel intimidated by those around them. Better climbers might for example see you struggling and offer advise (beta) for your problem because they can see where you're going wrong. Or someone might walk over and casually flash your project as part of their warm up etc. This could sometimes feel intimidating or whatever if it happens a lot, that is understandable.
Now women, on average operate at much lower grades than men do, either because performance isn't their main focus or due to physical limitations so women are more often going to find themselves in this lower band within the climbing walls scene. So I'd ask women to consider if when they feel they have experienced discrimination in a climbing wall, if it's really sexual or is it just ability based?
I climb with and/or alongside a few quite to very high performing female climbers on a regular basis and I've never noticed condescending behavior from other men towards them in a climbing environment. I suspect a large part of that is that they are crushing harder than a lot of the guys (or girls) in the room at any given time.
You're right, role models if you're going to have them can be of either sex, I can see while a woman might relate more to a female role model in very narrow ways but in the broader perspective of climbing and overall attitude to life I don't think there is any requirement for them to be gender specific. Personally I don't have any climbing role models, I don't feel the need to try and emulate the climbing or lifestyle of any well known climbers, male or female. I simply go about my climbing and my life in my own way, it is maybe not perfect, it is maybe not going to lead me to the maximum possible performance but it gives me fulfillment and fits within my broader life.
As for > "6 in 10 women say that men’s interests in outdoor activities are taken more seriously than women’s."
I don't really know what this means, presumably if men and women's interests in outdoor actives were taken exactly as seriously as each other then if you asked a lot of people who's is the more serious then you'd expect about a 50-50% split. So okay, there is a 10% leaning towards men's interests here which I wouldn't really consider much of an issue when you consider men in general do take their recreational activities (outdoor or not) much more seriously than women. By which I mean tend to focus more on performance than simply using it as a social or fun activity.
Straying a bit from the video now I think people need to look at this supposed sexual inequality in climbing and ask is it not largely just insecurity about being in a climbing wall full of people where you're abilities put you quite low down on the ability scale?
In any sport, you get natural hierarchy's which form based on ability because naturally you're going to want to train with people of a similar ability to your own so people split off into groups. In a climbing / bouldering wall situation, anyone, male or female operating at a low level can feel intimidated by those around them. Better climbers might for example see you struggling and offer advise (beta) for your problem because they can see where you're going wrong. Or someone might walk over and casually flash your project as part of their warm up etc. This could sometimes feel intimidating or whatever if it happens a lot, that is understandable.
Now women, on average operate at much lower grades than men do, either because performance isn't their main focus or due to physical limitations so women are more often going to find themselves in this lower band within the climbing walls scene. So I'd ask women to consider if when they feel they have experienced discrimination in a climbing wall, if it's really sexual or is it just ability based?
I climb with and/or alongside a few quite to very high performing female climbers on a regular basis and I've never noticed condescending behavior from other men towards them in a climbing environment. I suspect a large part of that is that they are crushing harder than a lot of the guys (or girls) in the room at any given time.
Post edited at 15:45
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In reply to UKC News:
Is there a UK equivalent to this group http://blog.rei.com/climb/brothers-of-climbing/ ?
Always bothered me that even when I lived in London 5 years ago the wall was full of white people, total lack of diversity.
Is there a UK equivalent to this group http://blog.rei.com/climb/brothers-of-climbing/ ?
Always bothered me that even when I lived in London 5 years ago the wall was full of white people, total lack of diversity.
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In reply to geo4r2d:
In London?!
You might want to look again now. Diversity abound at the walls I frequent.
In London?!
You might want to look again now. Diversity abound at the walls I frequent.
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In reply to geo4r2d:
Can't quite tell if you are trolling or not? (I'm strongly leaning towards the opinion that you are).
In response to some of Lord ash's comments, I definitely think an ability gap gan be off-putting and a hurdle for people to get into the sport. This is definitely not helped by a certain climbing walls not setting much in the way of low grade/entry level routes. The Lock in Harlow is particularly bad for this, and half the time there aren't top ropes on the low grade routes that are set.
This does make for quite a steep learning curve, and often we've taken new climbers there and they have been disheartened by failure on routes too hard for them, or bored of repeating the same handful for 4/4+'s and have not come back. But I think applies regardless of your gender as most of us are were equally crap when we started.
Can't quite tell if you are trolling or not? (I'm strongly leaning towards the opinion that you are).
In response to some of Lord ash's comments, I definitely think an ability gap gan be off-putting and a hurdle for people to get into the sport. This is definitely not helped by a certain climbing walls not setting much in the way of low grade/entry level routes. The Lock in Harlow is particularly bad for this, and half the time there aren't top ropes on the low grade routes that are set.
This does make for quite a steep learning curve, and often we've taken new climbers there and they have been disheartened by failure on routes too hard for them, or bored of repeating the same handful for 4/4+'s and have not come back. But I think applies regardless of your gender as most of us are were equally crap when we started.
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In reply to UKC News:
Is this vid for real? Superlee's first comment was pretty well balanced but aside from that I'm getting sick and tired of these articles suggesting people are sexist without realising it and that women are somehow being held back because of social gender patterns and whatever. The feminist movement is becoming a little bit like the gay rights movement where it doesn't know when the war is won. An oil tanker takes miles to stop and the feminist movement is kind of like a tanker thats got to its destination but the brakes haven't quite made it stop yet and it's running way past what it needs to do. We're still getting hit with this crap and a lot of men are getting more than a bit sick of it.
There was an excellent blog post dumped on here when we had one of these articles recently. She was pretty much telling some of the more sensitive and aggressive feminists to get over themselves and the points she made were spot on. There are still men living in the dark ages but then there are women who are equally are insensitive to men, even one of those women in the vid joked that she was "sick of climbing better than all the men", should I be offended at that? I'm glad to say I'm not sexist and neither are the vast majority of people out there. This material is rubbish.
Is this vid for real? Superlee's first comment was pretty well balanced but aside from that I'm getting sick and tired of these articles suggesting people are sexist without realising it and that women are somehow being held back because of social gender patterns and whatever. The feminist movement is becoming a little bit like the gay rights movement where it doesn't know when the war is won. An oil tanker takes miles to stop and the feminist movement is kind of like a tanker thats got to its destination but the brakes haven't quite made it stop yet and it's running way past what it needs to do. We're still getting hit with this crap and a lot of men are getting more than a bit sick of it.
There was an excellent blog post dumped on here when we had one of these articles recently. She was pretty much telling some of the more sensitive and aggressive feminists to get over themselves and the points she made were spot on. There are still men living in the dark ages but then there are women who are equally are insensitive to men, even one of those women in the vid joked that she was "sick of climbing better than all the men", should I be offended at that? I'm glad to say I'm not sexist and neither are the vast majority of people out there. This material is rubbish.
Post edited at 18:11
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In reply to SuperLee1985:
Sorry for the unclear wording. I was not referring to your comment but the fact that it is commonly assumed that role models must be of the same gender. That to me, is a sexist statement in a discussion that wants to raise equality. It just shows the complexity of the issue itself.
Sorry for the unclear wording. I was not referring to your comment but the fact that it is commonly assumed that role models must be of the same gender. That to me, is a sexist statement in a discussion that wants to raise equality. It just shows the complexity of the issue itself.
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In reply to UKC News:
The full questionnaire findings are here https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/REI_/2017-national-study-on-women-and-the...
I would be interested to know how much this differs between North American, U.K./EU perspectives.
The full questionnaire findings are here https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/REI_/2017-national-study-on-women-and-the...
I would be interested to know how much this differs between North American, U.K./EU perspectives.
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In reply to alx:
I too would be interested to see the differences.
Talking to my gf about these articles she feels quite strongly that the victim mode is far too over used. I asked her if she has a problem with route advice at the gyms and she said she was more than happy for a total stranger, regardless of gender to assist. Quite often I get help at the gyms and I have no problem with it. Twice this year I've had help from total strangers who are girls and I was quite happy to accept it and never gave it a second thought. Come to mention it, were they trying to degrade my manliness and suggest that because of my gender I'm somehow less? Were they feminists projecting an aggressive competitiveness on 'the enemy'? No, they were just being nice and helpful.
There are no shortage of female role models in climbing and like most men, I use them for inspiration just as much as the male ones.
I too would be interested to see the differences.
Talking to my gf about these articles she feels quite strongly that the victim mode is far too over used. I asked her if she has a problem with route advice at the gyms and she said she was more than happy for a total stranger, regardless of gender to assist. Quite often I get help at the gyms and I have no problem with it. Twice this year I've had help from total strangers who are girls and I was quite happy to accept it and never gave it a second thought. Come to mention it, were they trying to degrade my manliness and suggest that because of my gender I'm somehow less? Were they feminists projecting an aggressive competitiveness on 'the enemy'? No, they were just being nice and helpful.
There are no shortage of female role models in climbing and like most men, I use them for inspiration just as much as the male ones.
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In reply to UKC News:
I think equality within climbing in the UK is much, much better than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Maybe the US is a bit behind in that regard.
Sexist attitudes have not gone altogether, they are not confined to climbing and they still prevail in some other countries. I still hear them occasionally.
In the grand scheme of things equality has only recently been won and may be fragile.
I think equality within climbing in the UK is much, much better than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Maybe the US is a bit behind in that regard.
Sexist attitudes have not gone altogether, they are not confined to climbing and they still prevail in some other countries. I still hear them occasionally.
In the grand scheme of things equality has only recently been won and may be fragile.
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In reply to orge:
I think that from my point of view (as a male climber of average ability), climbing feels like an inclusive sport. For me, a climbing wall or crag is a place where gender just never comes into my mind as being an issue.
Climbing has a spirit of open-ness and friendiness that some other sports lack. Outside of major competetions, there is no gender grouping to speak of. It feels like there is no barrier to starting a conversation at the climbing wall with either a male or a female stranger and gender never leads the conversation in any particular direction. To be honest, talking about improving gender equality in climbing just seems un-neccesary to me because it exists already.
This is just my point of view of course, and it's possibly skewed because of who I am and where I live. Maybe there are large swathes of girls somewhere being discouraged from starting to climb because it's viewed as 'manly'. I don't know but i think climbing is the most inclusive environment that I have in my life.
I think that from my point of view (as a male climber of average ability), climbing feels like an inclusive sport. For me, a climbing wall or crag is a place where gender just never comes into my mind as being an issue.
Climbing has a spirit of open-ness and friendiness that some other sports lack. Outside of major competetions, there is no gender grouping to speak of. It feels like there is no barrier to starting a conversation at the climbing wall with either a male or a female stranger and gender never leads the conversation in any particular direction. To be honest, talking about improving gender equality in climbing just seems un-neccesary to me because it exists already.
This is just my point of view of course, and it's possibly skewed because of who I am and where I live. Maybe there are large swathes of girls somewhere being discouraged from starting to climb because it's viewed as 'manly'. I don't know but i think climbing is the most inclusive environment that I have in my life.
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In reply to Jimbo C:
Definitely. As an older girly and a late starter I have been amazed by the inclusiveness of the sport, and very grateful to be made so welcome. Gender does not seem to be an issue.
> I don't know but i think climbing is the most inclusive environment that I have in my life.
Definitely. As an older girly and a late starter I have been amazed by the inclusiveness of the sport, and very grateful to be made so welcome. Gender does not seem to be an issue.
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In reply to UKC News:
63% couldn't think of a female role model!?
From the nation that gave the world LYNN 'it goes boys' HILL
More recently:
Sport - Ashima, Margo Hayes, Sasha
Boulder -The Pooch, Nina Williams
Trad - Emily Harrington, Beth Rodden, Steph Davis
And that's just from the top of my head from one country.
I see nothing but a growing field of strong female role models entering the sport
63% couldn't think of a female role model!?
From the nation that gave the world LYNN 'it goes boys' HILL
More recently:
Sport - Ashima, Margo Hayes, Sasha
Boulder -The Pooch, Nina Williams
Trad - Emily Harrington, Beth Rodden, Steph Davis
And that's just from the top of my head from one country.
I see nothing but a growing field of strong female role models entering the sport
Post edited at 22:10
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In reply to UKC News:
On a related note one thing I don't ever remember there being a UKC article on or much on the forums about is successful climbing with your partner. It took along time, and a lot of trial and error, for me and my girlfriend to get it right (most of the time!).
My girlfriend gets annoyed at the lack of women who lead at the crag. Which of course is fine if they don't want to lead but not so fine if it's because of a lack of support and encouragement. It wasn't a sexist thing, probably more of a selfish thing, but I know I used to be very guilty of this. While we are really enjoying climbing together now, I still recognise that women's climbing groups and the like can be a great way of providing that psyche, support and encouragement.
On a related note one thing I don't ever remember there being a UKC article on or much on the forums about is successful climbing with your partner. It took along time, and a lot of trial and error, for me and my girlfriend to get it right (most of the time!).
My girlfriend gets annoyed at the lack of women who lead at the crag. Which of course is fine if they don't want to lead but not so fine if it's because of a lack of support and encouragement. It wasn't a sexist thing, probably more of a selfish thing, but I know I used to be very guilty of this. While we are really enjoying climbing together now, I still recognise that women's climbing groups and the like can be a great way of providing that psyche, support and encouragement.
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In reply to samwillo:
It doesn't mean there aren't female role models - but unless you're well into the sport you wouldn't know about them. The media etc does not represent the sport as one in which women are excelling.
It doesn't mean there aren't female role models - but unless you're well into the sport you wouldn't know about them. The media etc does not represent the sport as one in which women are excelling.
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In reply to UKC News:
I find all this stuff toxic and slanderous to a sport that is free to join no matter your age, class, wealth, gender or sexuality, and yet it's the topic of our time, dragged into many sports, from MMA to surfing. Some people are brats and cannot seem to come to terms with the cold hard reality of the human condition, our ancient circuitry, see the world only like an enraged sixteen-year-old, their heart full of revolution, but when confronted and asked for proof that climbing is sexist, a 'boys club' or is racist, most often than not you get thrown back some minor slight or experience open to interpretation, or that as a man you've never been raped or sexually assaulted so have no right to question the narrative, leading me to think many of these things have nothing at all to do with climbing (some verging on the clinical). When someone is pissed that hand cracks are designed as 'man-sized', and you explain that's because almost all FA were done by men, and you feel like a mansplaining asshole, well you get an idea the level we're talking at. Having been climbing all my life I've seen huge changes in participation but this has always been organic and non-political, no marches on the BMC, leading to UK female climbers who seem more able to be defined just as being climbers, rather than by their gender, something that can put them at odds when others try and weaponize their talent or make them a mascot. When Hazel, just about the best there is, get's shot down by women for posting a picture of her boyfriend on woman's self-congratulation day, you need to ask what side people are on. I have seen a lot of sex in climbing, a very real and powerful force in the sport (both good and bad), but very little real sexism. Climbers by and large are a clever bunch, it's the one entry requirement, and so being an asshole seems to be well policed, but so does a healthy disregard for bullshit. I personly hate women's only stuff the same I hate men's only golf clubs, but people are free to form any club they want, but if it's to exclude one sex in the belief it makes things better/easier, or make war, well that's something worth standing against (and many people probably agree with me, but are too chicken to say so, which I understand), as we're best, as climbers or as human being, when we mix it up. When someone asked Gwen Moffett if she'd experienced sexism in climbing and she says no, I don't think that means she's not experienced the worst of men (just as men experience the worst of women), only that Gwen, one of life's hard cases and scrappers, no doubt required a much higher burden of proof to apply that charge to something so profoundly positive and embracing.
I find all this stuff toxic and slanderous to a sport that is free to join no matter your age, class, wealth, gender or sexuality, and yet it's the topic of our time, dragged into many sports, from MMA to surfing. Some people are brats and cannot seem to come to terms with the cold hard reality of the human condition, our ancient circuitry, see the world only like an enraged sixteen-year-old, their heart full of revolution, but when confronted and asked for proof that climbing is sexist, a 'boys club' or is racist, most often than not you get thrown back some minor slight or experience open to interpretation, or that as a man you've never been raped or sexually assaulted so have no right to question the narrative, leading me to think many of these things have nothing at all to do with climbing (some verging on the clinical). When someone is pissed that hand cracks are designed as 'man-sized', and you explain that's because almost all FA were done by men, and you feel like a mansplaining asshole, well you get an idea the level we're talking at. Having been climbing all my life I've seen huge changes in participation but this has always been organic and non-political, no marches on the BMC, leading to UK female climbers who seem more able to be defined just as being climbers, rather than by their gender, something that can put them at odds when others try and weaponize their talent or make them a mascot. When Hazel, just about the best there is, get's shot down by women for posting a picture of her boyfriend on woman's self-congratulation day, you need to ask what side people are on. I have seen a lot of sex in climbing, a very real and powerful force in the sport (both good and bad), but very little real sexism. Climbers by and large are a clever bunch, it's the one entry requirement, and so being an asshole seems to be well policed, but so does a healthy disregard for bullshit. I personly hate women's only stuff the same I hate men's only golf clubs, but people are free to form any club they want, but if it's to exclude one sex in the belief it makes things better/easier, or make war, well that's something worth standing against (and many people probably agree with me, but are too chicken to say so, which I understand), as we're best, as climbers or as human being, when we mix it up. When someone asked Gwen Moffett if she'd experienced sexism in climbing and she says no, I don't think that means she's not experienced the worst of men (just as men experience the worst of women), only that Gwen, one of life's hard cases and scrappers, no doubt required a much higher burden of proof to apply that charge to something so profoundly positive and embracing.
Post edited at 23:59
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In reply to benmorr:
On the contrary, I'd say the general public are just as likely to know about Ashima, Sasha, Shauna as other male 'superstars'. All of these three have been exposed to the media at national/international levels.
E.g. Shauna - Guardian piece, BBC news & multiple radio interviews
> The media etc does not represent the sport as one in which women are excelling.
On the contrary, I'd say the general public are just as likely to know about Ashima, Sasha, Shauna as other male 'superstars'. All of these three have been exposed to the media at national/international levels.
E.g. Shauna - Guardian piece, BBC news & multiple radio interviews
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In reply to UKC News:
In this thread about women's equality in climbing, there are ~17 different respondents (including me), of which (going by a quick glance at profiles) ~3 are female. The consensus of the thread so far seems to be that Equality isn't a problem in climbing. Just an observation.
In this thread about women's equality in climbing, there are ~17 different respondents (including me), of which (going by a quick glance at profiles) ~3 are female. The consensus of the thread so far seems to be that Equality isn't a problem in climbing. Just an observation.
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In reply to KeithAlexander:
In this thread about women's equality in climbing, there are ~17 different respondents (including me), of which (going by a quick glance at profiles) ~3 are female. The consensus of the thread so far seems to be that Equality isn't a problem in climbing. Just an observation.
Just because there are fewer female climbers, doesn't mean that they're being treated unequally.
In this thread about women's equality in climbing, there are ~17 different respondents (including me), of which (going by a quick glance at profiles) ~3 are female. The consensus of the thread so far seems to be that Equality isn't a problem in climbing. Just an observation.
Just because there are fewer female climbers, doesn't mean that they're being treated unequally.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
I rather doubt that was the point KA was making.
> In this thread about women's equality in climbing, there are ~17 different respondents (including me), of which (going by a quick glance at profiles) ~3 are female. The consensus of the thread so far seems to be that Equality isn't a problem in climbing. Just an observation.Just because there are fewer female climbers, doesn't mean that they're being treated unequally.
I rather doubt that was the point KA was making.
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In reply to KeithAlexander:
You are right. It isn't a problem in the UK today and that is to be celebrated. It provides a better environment for everyone.
But that doesn't mean we should not nip it in the bud on the rare occasions it occurs and that still takes the courage to speak out.
You are right. It isn't a problem in the UK today and that is to be celebrated. It provides a better environment for everyone.
But that doesn't mean we should not nip it in the bud on the rare occasions it occurs and that still takes the courage to speak out.
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In reply to UKC News:
I wonder at what point all of this becomes rather unproductive. If people are bombarded by this viewpoint aren't men going to feel uncomfortable around women, whilst more women search for the micro agression in what might ordinarily be considered friendly advice?
Sure there are sprayers, but I generally don't see these people exclusively targeting women. Burning off a sprayer is funny, but I don't really see how it fits into some kind of gender war at the climbing wall.
Unless we're talking about complete novice's, most climbers can quickly weigh up if someone is better than themselves and generally decline to give beta on a route or problem. If you want to get better, it's not a bad idea to listen to better climbers, there's really only pride stopping you from accepting such advice, particularly when projecting.
I wonder at what point all of this becomes rather unproductive. If people are bombarded by this viewpoint aren't men going to feel uncomfortable around women, whilst more women search for the micro agression in what might ordinarily be considered friendly advice?
Sure there are sprayers, but I generally don't see these people exclusively targeting women. Burning off a sprayer is funny, but I don't really see how it fits into some kind of gender war at the climbing wall.
Unless we're talking about complete novice's, most climbers can quickly weigh up if someone is better than themselves and generally decline to give beta on a route or problem. If you want to get better, it's not a bad idea to listen to better climbers, there's really only pride stopping you from accepting such advice, particularly when projecting.
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In reply to andy kirkpatrick:
There's some good stuff in there Andy, but that's balls and you know it. You may as well have just claimed to be 'The voice of the silent majority' or 'just saying what other people are thinking' or some other clichéd bullshit.
> ...and many people probably agree with me, but are too chicken to say so, which I understand...
There's some good stuff in there Andy, but that's balls and you know it. You may as well have just claimed to be 'The voice of the silent majority' or 'just saying what other people are thinking' or some other clichéd bullshit.
Post edited at 20:59
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In reply to UKC News:
So would I be right in saying that we think this article and vid is just some &*%"$?
So would I be right in saying that we think this article and vid is just some &*%"$?
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In reply to jas wood:
I have to admit that I found the video tedious and somewhat irritating. This probably means I am a very
bad person........... But it was worth the strain for the amazing clip of Lynn Hill on the changing corners pitch; I'd never seen this before - a search on You Tube finds more of it.
> Video talked a lot without saying anything.
I have to admit that I found the video tedious and somewhat irritating. This probably means I am a very
bad person........... But it was worth the strain for the amazing clip of Lynn Hill on the changing corners pitch; I'd never seen this before - a search on You Tube finds more of it.
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Not enjoying the video doesn't make you a very bad person, but it's worth reflecting that when a group of young american women made a video about Women's equality in climbing, their priority probably wasn't to appeal to the men who frequent this forum... and that's OK, right? Not *everything* has to be made for us men to like, does it?
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Andy Kirkpatrick's fans will recognise the call for women (or brown people) not to behave like victims whilst simultaneously claiming he is a vicitim of the politically-correct liberal establishment.
> There's some good stuff in there Andy, but that's balls and you know it. You may as well have just claimed to be 'The voice of the silent majority' or 'just saying what other people are thinking' or some other clichéd bullshit.
Andy Kirkpatrick's fans will recognise the call for women (or brown people) not to behave like victims whilst simultaneously claiming he is a vicitim of the politically-correct liberal establishment.
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In reply to UKC News:
i think that there is still a very patriarchal society in the US where for many women, the ultimate aim is to be a 'stay at home Mom' or 'homemaker' and to aspire to be anything else is somehow seen as altering the status quo - so I can see how girls climbing in the US might have a different experience to those in Europe or the UK. I always feel fine at the climbing wall or at a crag outdoors but am lucky with the group I climb with who are both guys and gals and of all ages and abilities. The thing that worries me more about climbing is the financial side and how divisive this can be for people starting out, especially if they are young enough to still be relying on parental support. Just one more thing tho, I was recently at a local parkrun and all the announcements were about the achievements of the men - so many I lost count! It really peed me off, as there are ladies who achieve as well. So, it's not just climbing where we often take a back seat and I think it can be much the same in other sports where men and women and doing the same activity togther. They just shout about it more!
i think that there is still a very patriarchal society in the US where for many women, the ultimate aim is to be a 'stay at home Mom' or 'homemaker' and to aspire to be anything else is somehow seen as altering the status quo - so I can see how girls climbing in the US might have a different experience to those in Europe or the UK. I always feel fine at the climbing wall or at a crag outdoors but am lucky with the group I climb with who are both guys and gals and of all ages and abilities. The thing that worries me more about climbing is the financial side and how divisive this can be for people starting out, especially if they are young enough to still be relying on parental support. Just one more thing tho, I was recently at a local parkrun and all the announcements were about the achievements of the men - so many I lost count! It really peed me off, as there are ladies who achieve as well. So, it's not just climbing where we often take a back seat and I think it can be much the same in other sports where men and women and doing the same activity togther. They just shout about it more!
Post edited at 23:54
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In reply to Garmour01:
Huh?
> The thing that worries me more about climbing is the financial side and how divisive this can be for people starting out, especially if they are young enough to still be relying on parental support.
Huh?
In reply to flaneur:
Well indeed. I think it's pretty absurd to play the underdog card or claim that your views are controversial and you alone have the courage to air them when 11 million people have just voted for a fascist in France, and the White House is occupied by a barely literate man child. Far from being silent, purveyors of the alt-right won't shut up, like enthusiastic vegans or crossfitters. Not that I wish they would - where would satire be without them?
> Andy Kirkpatrick's fans will recognise the call for women (or brown people) not to behave like victims whilst simultaneously claiming he is a vicitim of the politically-correct liberal establishment.
Well indeed. I think it's pretty absurd to play the underdog card or claim that your views are controversial and you alone have the courage to air them when 11 million people have just voted for a fascist in France, and the White House is occupied by a barely literate man child. Far from being silent, purveyors of the alt-right won't shut up, like enthusiastic vegans or crossfitters. Not that I wish they would - where would satire be without them?
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In reply to Garmour01:
I am really surprised by your parkrun experiences, parkrun is probably the most inclusive organisation is mainstream sport.
The main achievements celebrated at parkrun are the number of run milestones. These are just lists i.e. If you have completed 100 runs your name is read out, male or female.
I am really surprised by your parkrun experiences, parkrun is probably the most inclusive organisation is mainstream sport.
The main achievements celebrated at parkrun are the number of run milestones. These are just lists i.e. If you have completed 100 runs your name is read out, male or female.
Post edited at 10:20
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
Oh good lord.
As a female climber, and engineer, I have sometimes have trouble empathising with women who feel that they need more support to feel included.
However, I have the emotional intelligence to realise that I need less support PRECISELY because the men that have surrounded me in my work and family life as I've grown up provided that support when I needed it most, and that in much the same way that my university education was something I received because of good life chances, my perception that I am equal is something I am fortunate to have but not necessarily normal.
That doesn't mean that I've not felt crushed by sexism ever, but that I was made robust enough to cope by those surrounding me.
This is why I believe in women supporting each other, this is why we need feminism. How I feel regarding my equality to be men (confident but with occasional doubts) should be a minimum and not an example of a stuck up feminist or a "tomboy" or whatever box you'd like to put me in.
As for the gay rights movement having done all it needs to?
What the actual f*ck is wrong with you? You must be completely an utterly deluded. Perhaps you'd like to clean your bubble so that you can see out?
You probably wanted someone to get angry with your post. I don't care. Leave the feminist and gay rights movements alone because people like you are why we still need them.
Oh good lord.
As a female climber, and engineer, I have sometimes have trouble empathising with women who feel that they need more support to feel included.
However, I have the emotional intelligence to realise that I need less support PRECISELY because the men that have surrounded me in my work and family life as I've grown up provided that support when I needed it most, and that in much the same way that my university education was something I received because of good life chances, my perception that I am equal is something I am fortunate to have but not necessarily normal.
That doesn't mean that I've not felt crushed by sexism ever, but that I was made robust enough to cope by those surrounding me.
This is why I believe in women supporting each other, this is why we need feminism. How I feel regarding my equality to be men (confident but with occasional doubts) should be a minimum and not an example of a stuck up feminist or a "tomboy" or whatever box you'd like to put me in.
As for the gay rights movement having done all it needs to?
What the actual f*ck is wrong with you? You must be completely an utterly deluded. Perhaps you'd like to clean your bubble so that you can see out?
You probably wanted someone to get angry with your post. I don't care. Leave the feminist and gay rights movements alone because people like you are why we still need them.
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In reply to LisaA:
No, my comment wasn't supposed to get anyone angry, it was just a point of view. I have no issue with gay rights, good luck to them. My point was simply that a fight can be fought way past the finish line and sometimes you have to know when a fight is won. I do believe the feminist movement on some levels has also gone too far. Don't be so defensive over issues of debate, lets not shut down somebody elses freedom of expression just because it's a different point of view.
My comment about the gay rights movement sometimes going past the finish post was a point well made on BBC news some time back by a very famous gay rights activist. Perhaps it might be an idea to read somebody elses post a little bit better before you start attacking somebody.
We have to be careful having clubs and groups just for certain parts of our society. Should a person start a white, straight, male climbing club? Imagine the backlash? Rather than having issues with minorities, I simply see people as people and don't tribalise the society I live in. I have friends of many leanings and they to me are all friends, not black friends, not female friends, just friends. Much love.
No, my comment wasn't supposed to get anyone angry, it was just a point of view. I have no issue with gay rights, good luck to them. My point was simply that a fight can be fought way past the finish line and sometimes you have to know when a fight is won. I do believe the feminist movement on some levels has also gone too far. Don't be so defensive over issues of debate, lets not shut down somebody elses freedom of expression just because it's a different point of view.
My comment about the gay rights movement sometimes going past the finish post was a point well made on BBC news some time back by a very famous gay rights activist. Perhaps it might be an idea to read somebody elses post a little bit better before you start attacking somebody.
We have to be careful having clubs and groups just for certain parts of our society. Should a person start a white, straight, male climbing club? Imagine the backlash? Rather than having issues with minorities, I simply see people as people and don't tribalise the society I live in. I have friends of many leanings and they to me are all friends, not black friends, not female friends, just friends. Much love.
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
With regards to your final paragraph I actually share your views closely but I do think that it's very hard to understand that there might be an issue when, male or female, you aren't fully exposed to it. And I don't think saying that people who struggle with these issues shouldn't be, because they are only perceived, is fair or constructive in solving the problem (which is the undertone to a number of posts in this thread).
Also I take back the rude bit, sorry. I do think, however, that your comment wasn't presented in a balanced way either [ref: Mine] which leaves it open to the assumption that you are prejudiced, without any context given.
But, I shouldn't have been rude and I'm sorry I was
With regards to your final paragraph I actually share your views closely but I do think that it's very hard to understand that there might be an issue when, male or female, you aren't fully exposed to it. And I don't think saying that people who struggle with these issues shouldn't be, because they are only perceived, is fair or constructive in solving the problem (which is the undertone to a number of posts in this thread).
Also I take back the rude bit, sorry. I do think, however, that your comment wasn't presented in a balanced way either [ref: Mine] which leaves it open to the assumption that you are prejudiced, without any context given.
But, I shouldn't have been rude and I'm sorry I was
Post edited at 13:01
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
From http://www.smc.org.uk/AboutUs.php
"At present the Club has a membership of around 450. In 1990 women were admitted to membership, following many debates. Their numbers are fast approaching double figures."
Which means membership is 98% male.
> Should a person start a white, straight, male climbing club? Imagine the backlash?
From http://www.smc.org.uk/AboutUs.php
"At present the Club has a membership of around 450. In 1990 women were admitted to membership, following many debates. Their numbers are fast approaching double figures."
Which means membership is 98% male.
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
In what way, exactly?
> I do believe the feminist movement on some levels has also gone too far.
In what way, exactly?
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Fair question. I feel the vid in the article represents a small proportion of women who feel men degrade them. It feels to me like a reaction to an oppression that isn't there so I'd say it's a perceived offense or a perceived degrading of women by men. Sometimes there's a desire by some (not exclusive to women, it can be anyone) to become a victim as it fills a need in a life thats somehow hollow without this conflict. I know a lot of women and pretty much all of them are happy in their skins, happy with their place in society and just get on with it.
I was listening to a piece on Radio 4 the other week and a bisexual from the feminist movement was talking about relationships. The attack on men and how they process their feelings was borderline hate speech and I had to switch off. Sometimes a member of a previously oppressed minority can attack the majority to somehow strike a balance thats been settled long ago.
It all reminds me of Barack Obama when he addressed a huge rally of black Americans at an annual meet regrading equal rights for black people. he said something to the effect of "It's time to stop being the victim and just get on with it. it's time to stop blaming the past" which got a very mixed reaction, some cheered and some boo'd. As a black president he was able to say this but as a white male it can be hard for me to say the same to somebody else as I'm from a perceived majority who in the past did treat minorities different. The war is over, lets just get on with living and climbing together regardless of what we think we are.
Fair question. I feel the vid in the article represents a small proportion of women who feel men degrade them. It feels to me like a reaction to an oppression that isn't there so I'd say it's a perceived offense or a perceived degrading of women by men. Sometimes there's a desire by some (not exclusive to women, it can be anyone) to become a victim as it fills a need in a life thats somehow hollow without this conflict. I know a lot of women and pretty much all of them are happy in their skins, happy with their place in society and just get on with it.
I was listening to a piece on Radio 4 the other week and a bisexual from the feminist movement was talking about relationships. The attack on men and how they process their feelings was borderline hate speech and I had to switch off. Sometimes a member of a previously oppressed minority can attack the majority to somehow strike a balance thats been settled long ago.
It all reminds me of Barack Obama when he addressed a huge rally of black Americans at an annual meet regrading equal rights for black people. he said something to the effect of "It's time to stop being the victim and just get on with it. it's time to stop blaming the past" which got a very mixed reaction, some cheered and some boo'd. As a black president he was able to say this but as a white male it can be hard for me to say the same to somebody else as I'm from a perceived majority who in the past did treat minorities different. The war is over, lets just get on with living and climbing together regardless of what we think we are.
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
In reply to olddirtydoggy:
That in itself does not preclude the existence of prejudice however, a happy slave is still a slave ( hyperbole I know, but I am using it to make a point ). To counter your original point, that feminism is 'over' - it has obviously succeeded in many ways when compared to a century or more ago - I would offer the following examples of where feminism still has some work to do, restricted to the UK only as I would assume it manifestly obvious that women face extreme institutionalized prejudice in many other cultures.
* The illegality of abortion in Northern Ireland
* Taxation of feminine hygiene products
* Under representation of women in high paying and managerial occupations (according to the ONS. This is related to the gender pay gap, which has been in steady decline for years)
* Cultural attitudes. While I believe in a multicultural society, it is inevitable that the UK has 'imported' issues from cultures with less enlightened philosophies toward women. These include, but are not limited to, human trafficking, forced marriages and female genital mutilation
* Media representation. The media often applies double standards to the portrayal of men and women. A classic example from climbing being the coverage of the death of Alison Hargreaves, who received criticism for participating in such a dangerous activity as a mother, when other climbers who were fathers faced no such treatment.
I've limited my response to what I think are fairly objective facts. Admittedly it is harder for me to empathize with what have become known as 'micro aggressions'. I am a white man, and as such I would be somewhat embarrassed to debate the existence of such things. But if the women I know say that these are the things that they experience daily, I don't think I'm qualified to argue.
Amen to that.
In reply to olddirtydoggy:
> I know a lot of women and pretty much all of them are happy in their skins, happy with their place in society and just get on with it.
That in itself does not preclude the existence of prejudice however, a happy slave is still a slave ( hyperbole I know, but I am using it to make a point ). To counter your original point, that feminism is 'over' - it has obviously succeeded in many ways when compared to a century or more ago - I would offer the following examples of where feminism still has some work to do, restricted to the UK only as I would assume it manifestly obvious that women face extreme institutionalized prejudice in many other cultures.
* The illegality of abortion in Northern Ireland
* Taxation of feminine hygiene products
* Under representation of women in high paying and managerial occupations (according to the ONS. This is related to the gender pay gap, which has been in steady decline for years)
* Cultural attitudes. While I believe in a multicultural society, it is inevitable that the UK has 'imported' issues from cultures with less enlightened philosophies toward women. These include, but are not limited to, human trafficking, forced marriages and female genital mutilation
* Media representation. The media often applies double standards to the portrayal of men and women. A classic example from climbing being the coverage of the death of Alison Hargreaves, who received criticism for participating in such a dangerous activity as a mother, when other climbers who were fathers faced no such treatment.
I've limited my response to what I think are fairly objective facts. Admittedly it is harder for me to empathize with what have become known as 'micro aggressions'. I am a white man, and as such I would be somewhat embarrassed to debate the existence of such things. But if the women I know say that these are the things that they experience daily, I don't think I'm qualified to argue.
> Lets just get on with living and climbing together regardless of what we think we are.
Amen to that.
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
I'm sure they weren't trying to make anyone angry - it was just a point of view. Don't be so defensive over issues of debate, lets not shut down somebody elses freedom of expression just because it's a different point of view.
Much love xx
> I was listening to a piece on Radio 4 the other week and a bisexual from the feminist movement was talking about relationships. The attack on men and how they process their feelings was borderline hate speech and I had to switch off.
I'm sure they weren't trying to make anyone angry - it was just a point of view. Don't be so defensive over issues of debate, lets not shut down somebody elses freedom of expression just because it's a different point of view.
Much love xx
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In reply to KeithAlexander:
I didn't get angry, I just switched off. I certainly didn't start calling up and swearing at anyone. Thats the beauty of the radio or TV, if you don't like what you're hearing then you have the freedom to turn over. It's not in my nature to try and censor or prevent an opinion being aired, even if I don't like it.
I didn't get angry, I just switched off. I certainly didn't start calling up and swearing at anyone. Thats the beauty of the radio or TV, if you don't like what you're hearing then you have the freedom to turn over. It's not in my nature to try and censor or prevent an opinion being aired, even if I don't like it.
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
re the gay rights movement having "won the war": Gay sex was still illegal in parts of the UK until 2013. Same-sex marriage is still unrecognised (and politically contentious) in Northern Ireland. Gay couples still say they often don't feel safe holding hands or kissing in public. And then you have the many parts of the world where homosexuality is still a criminal offense, sometimes punishable by death.
re the gay rights movement having "won the war": Gay sex was still illegal in parts of the UK until 2013. Same-sex marriage is still unrecognised (and politically contentious) in Northern Ireland. Gay couples still say they often don't feel safe holding hands or kissing in public. And then you have the many parts of the world where homosexuality is still a criminal offense, sometimes punishable by death.
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