UKC

Dartmoor is the only place in England where the public are officially allowed to wild camp; but could this be under threat? John Bainbridge, who writes extensively on access issues in England, is worried by recent proposals from Dartmoor National Park Authority to reduce the areas in which people can camp.

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In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

How do they think they will reduce anti-social behaviour by condensing the area that people are allowed to wild-camp in? The same number of people will go to Dartmoor to wild camp, they'll just be less spread-out.

In reply to PaulJepson:

I assume what they really mean is that by restricting the anti-social behaviour to hotspots then they won't have such extensive clean up requirements as they won't need to cover such a large area. 

The main anti-social behaviour I expect they are talking about is leaving litter as this appears to be the actual and only problem with "wild camping".

In reply to PaulJepson:

I don't the offenders will really care about where they are "allowed" to wild camp, they'll go where want

In reply to MKH:

And fires...

In reply to MKH:

I think it's really important not to introduce long terms laws to deal with a short term (covid related) problem.  The last 18 months have seen people camping out in all sorts of places that would never see obvious campers.  99% of these will evaporate once (if) we approach a greater degree of normality.

In reply to Jon Read:

... and concentrations of shit...

In reply to PaulJepson:

What are you defining as "wild camping" in this context ?

In reply to GrahamD:

On Dartmoor it means anything from a solo self-sufficient backpacker, biviing well out the way, to an instagram shit-flicker, parking their massive Sprinter up in the carpark next to Haytor for the weekend. 

If wildcamping on the moor continues to be an issue, you'll end up with something like Loch Lomond. As others have said, hopefully it is just a Covid-specific issue (like the other national parks getting battered) but if not then tighter management is inevitable. I don't see how condensing all the campers into smaller areas is an effective means of managing a 'problem' though. 

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Having had a look at the map I can see that they plan to remove areas that I and my kids have wild camped over night, including one of my favourite spots.

I'm on Dartmoor most weeks of the year and I have not seen anything to hint at these changes, so thanks UKH for highlighting this.

I assume the absence of any meaningful consultation is not actually sneaky underhandedness, but plain old common or garden incompetence. 

I've certainly jumped on the chance to contact the park authority and invite myself to join their extremely well hidden consultation.

I wonder if the park authorities are fans of Douglas Adams....

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

We should wholeheartedly oppose restrictions on land access like those suggested by these proposals. Otherwise... what's the point of having an outdoor community?

The pressures on our "wild" spaces will not be eased by making access more restrictive. If the relevant authorities (e.g. councils and National Park Authorities) lack the resources to deal with these problems, we should be asking politicians to invest more in these areas (I'm thinking of Cumbria in particular, as that is my local stomping ground).

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

A very well written article. Thank you. I’d no idea that these proposals were being made for the DNP; it’s worrying to say the least. And, as has been said, it’s a complete overreaction (well, ‘misreaction’) to a problem which will not be resolved by more restrictions.
Part of the problem is, in my opinion, that the various Park Authorities wield massive power over people who use the Parks and those who live there, but w don’t vote for the Authority members. They are appointed by Secretary of State (about half the members, I think) or voted in by local councils (the other half). I’m not given to ideas of conspiracy and secret handshakes, but I really do suspect there’s a lot of the old boys’ network going on here. Even if I wanted to take the job on, to try and influence the LDNPA, how do I get on the Authority? By either being a Secretary of State appointee, or by being a local councillor?  Bizarrely, as a committee which has so much influence on my life (I live, and regularly hike and wild camp in the LDNP), I do not vote for the members; it’s a quasi-dictatorship - which probably explains why the LDNP is in the state it’s in. 
 

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention. Dartmoor was a huge part of my childhood and I definitely oppose these changes! 

Like you say, littering is already illegal under existing bylaws, people who are behaving antisocially wont care they are breaking additional bylaws. 

In reply to PaulJepson:

Its not really about compression the issue as such....yet....although a future of small "approved" sites, which of course you pay for may well be in the future.

For now this is more about pushing the camping further away from roads and settlements.  There is some sort of loose logic to that; the Rab C Nesbit camping kit in a carrier bag brigade certainly don't want to walk far!

But it is a classic of missing the point completely.  The changes will affect those who cause no problem anyway. The muppets will still stick their frame tents up and leave their sh*t at Belliver....Black Hill....Four Winds and others and ignore the bylaws anyway.  

I said on the other thread that the problems this year were pretty bad, but entirely predictable and could have been largely avoided. What's really needed....

Enforcement of the existing rules and on the spot fines. 

Real options for camping in vans. No Plume this year so allow van parking in Postbridge,  Venford and even Dartmeet carparks all of which have toilets.  Fixed cost of £10 per night, big fine for no pay.

Encourage informal short term tents only sites near Princetown,  Postbridge and Merrivale. Income for farmers and control of the problem 

Those are just a few easy steps all of which will help.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Why is it, than when I see ‘consultation’ I automatically think it’s a foregone conclusion. Maybe I’m a cynic but does seem like that way from my experience. 
The DNPA is a public body, isn’t it? So, they should be listening fully, and not be power crazy dictators and hiding stuff so it can’t be found. 
The DNPA have been crap (excuse the pun) at policing the misuse of the park to date, so why will anything change by penalising those who act responsibly. 
seems to be so common, the majority penalised because of the few reckless idiots.
The BMC need to get in on this fully, and not just lip service to members. 

 

In reply to Chewie65:

Do they have any powers to do policing ? I suspect not.

In reply to GrahamD: isn’t it all byelaws at the moment- which police just don’t have time for, the cost of prosecution must be prohibitive for them, hence why they’ve done sod all to date (that I’m aware of)

They waste time money on proposals and should put it into deterrents for the arseholes, unfortunately, they think this is the easy option, but those selfish gits will carry on doing what they do until the consequences hit them . 

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Note that the consultation on changes has gone live today on the DNPA website. 

The documents linked do look to have changed,  eg 3 man tents now allowed, so worth a read through. 

The reductions to permitted camping areas are concerning and result in quite a few perfectly suitable spots being ruled out in future. 

Also, all further changes being OK after one public meeting? That's not acceptable. 

Some of the proposals are very sensible and necessary,  however many of the issues could be solved by more effective enforcement. 

On that, has anyone seen any evidence of any enforcement action,  issue of fines, prosecution etc after this year? I can't find anything?

In reply to Wainers44:

Here’s a link to the DNPA consultation page: https://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/about-us/who-we-are/byelaws-consultation

As you say, some sensible proposals, and others which need rethinking and/or managing in different ways.

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

What is very important is that people send in personal letters of objection. The National Park survey is anonymous and just a survey

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I'm also local and also widely use and wild camp on Dartmoor. As stated, I'm sure some of the changes proposed are in place to confront some of the behaviour in several areas like Bellever etc - from terrible parking to tent dumping to BBQs to anti-social behaviour, littering (myself and a mate filled two big bags worth of litter from Hound Tor alone) plus threatening behaviour towards Rangers and even police. All unacceptable but also with wider causes than simply 'bad people'. I have seen the consultation on social media and local news media but recognise others won't have seen that. Can't speak for any other aims as don't know enough. I have seen other national park authorities act in a way that appeared contrary to national park aims (namely the LDNP). And like Loch Lomond and elsewhere there is a debate to be had about irresponsible camping (not wild camping). How that is worked out is another matter. I'd like to see a national conversation on disposable BBQs and tents too, without penalising those who struggle for money. This is a wider issue about throwaway culture and a lack of understanding about wild spaces, nature and wildlife etc. It would be great to see this included in more school curriculums more widely. That way we focus on the 'root' rather than the 'fruit' !

In reply to lucozade:

I'd just ban disposable BBQs entirely, to be honest.  Yes, you could make your own with a foil tray and coal, but most people won't.  Buy a reusable one e.g. the bucket type instead.