/ COMPETITION: Win a Jöttnar Winter Climbing Clothing Package Worth £1,265

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UKC Articles 02 Nov 2019
Hero Get kitted out for winter with a clothing package from Jöttnar's brand new AW19/20 range. To be won is a Grim shell jacket, Valdyr shell pants and an ultralight Tor down jacket.

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Deadeye 02 Nov 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

"I'm Tor"

"Tho am I, but it was worth it"

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lithos 02 Nov 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

women's version  ? - FFS

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In reply to lithos:

I've just followed this up with Jottnar.

I'm not sure if you've seen the following thread, but there's parallels to be drawn, and the response I gave to that still stands: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/win_a_pair_of_adidas_terrex_agravic_flow_shoes-711800

Post edited at 12:08
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lithos 02 Nov 2019
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

i almost quoted you from that thread in my reply - i thought this was at odds with what you said there just a day or two ago hence the exasperation. 

Good work on talking to them, show all comp companies the thread, it shouldn't be an after thought (of course I'm reducing my chances of winning

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tracyl 04 Nov 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

 I know  competitions  are  a form  of advertising  so  it's  up  to  the companies  concerned what  they  offer  as a prize  -  but  surely  you  should  be  pointing  out  to  companies  such  as  Jottnar  just  what  they  seem to  be saying  to women  when  they  don't  appear to  think  a women's  alternative  prize  is necessary  ( I have  to  admit  this  isn't  the  first  time  I've  had  this  view  of  Jottnar  ). Surely  if you're  advertising  it pays  not  to irritate  part of your  audience! 

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Welsh Kate 04 Nov 2019
In reply to tracyl:

Quite - bit of an own-goal by Jottnar - not going to look at their catalogues if they think only men want to win prize draws for kit.

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In reply to tracyl:

I'm not sure if you've seen my reply on the other thread (which I referenced earlier), but if not here it is again in slightly abridged form, as it directly addresses your - and our - concerns:

"Your point is completely valid: the link is towards the men's product, the images featured are of the men's product, and the text revolves around the men's product. Even if a women's model were available (which it is), it hardly gives a shining example of gender parity...

The issue was face is that it's ultimately the brand's responsibility to supply the copy/prize; however, to counter this I would argue it's our responsibility to question the brand in much the same way that you - as a site user - are right to question our values. The option of both men's and women's prizes should always be the case, but not only that - both products should be given equal importance within the Comp itself.

Having had a quick scan of the recent competitions the vast majority (where gender options exist) succeed in achieving this. It's the case with the Arc'teryx Proton LT Hoody, the TNF Summit L5 Futurelight Jacket, the Rab Microlight, and the Sprayway Hain/Oust Jacket. As such, we're not doing badly, but exceptions occur, such as the Anatom Q4 Cuillin Comp (where it wasn't made abundantly clear whether the women's model was also available, as it wasn't featured within the text/imagery).

With this in mind, I agree with the point your are making and think we're applying these rules to a high percentage of the competitions run on site; however, it would be good for the small percentage that don't to be eliminated - or updated - so that they clearly display both men's and women's models."

With regards to the Comp at hand, Jottnar have just got back to confirm that there is indeed an equivalent value available in products from their women's range, but as per the above I would like to see more about these products within the competition itself next time, which I suspect is exactly what they'll do given the feedback from this thread.

Post edited at 12:50
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Welsh Kate 04 Nov 2019
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Thanks, Rob, your efforts are much appreciated.

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TobyA 04 Nov 2019
In reply to Welsh Kate:

I was just looking on Jöttnar's website and its notable that their women's range there is currently quite restricted, for example the women's Bergelmir is still listed as Neoshell, not the new Skojldr fabric the men's is made with. Lots of their products are only available in male sizes.

I've interviewed the guys at Jöttnar and discussed products with them in connection with UKC reviews, all over email so i'm not claiming to know them well, but they seem like enthusiastic, professional and decent people. I'm not trying to defend the company against charges of not offering women and equal range to men, because clearly they don't. But I suspect it's more a reflection of the difficulty of offering very niche products in relatively small numbers and running a profitable company. That obviously doesn't help if you are a woman who winter climbs looking for good gear, but it reflects the ongoing under representation of women in winter/ice climbing etc.

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In reply to TobyA:

Tonnes of companies do this. ME for example only do the Citadel belay jacket in Mens. 

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TobyA 06 Nov 2019
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

Yes, I interviewed people a Rab a few years ago for a magazine article and its why traditionally certain products only come in one colour too - they just don't think they will sell enough to make it worth doing others.

Ironically though proper belays jackets, used as belay jackets, might be one of the few things that are relatively unisex.

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In reply to TobyA:

Yes by the time my partner is wearing all her layers for deep cold, you wouldn't know what gender she was xD 

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Robert Durran 06 Nov 2019
In reply to TobyA:

> Ironically though proper belays jackets, used as belay jackets, might be one of the few things that are relatively unisex.

Gloves, hats, socks, footwear?

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TobyA 06 Nov 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

To some extent I suspect, yes, although possibly gloves could benefit from being gendered. Having said that hands differ so much within sexes: I normally need large for my palms but then my fingers are way to short for the gloves. It must be a nightmare try to shape boots or gloves to fit as many people as possible.

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Gemmazrobo 07 Nov 2019
In reply to TobyA: Beefy belay jackets still need to be somewhat fitted tho- ill fitting/too baggy=less effective heat trapping and too long sleeves catch and fall down with any movement while belaying. Much smaller market tho, good down jackets plenty decent options, actually heavyweight synthetic not so much... still saving for that custom phd hmpftt

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TobyA 07 Nov 2019
In reply to Gemmazrobo:

I know what you mean although I used to ice climb with quite a few women climbers and I did notice once you had a harness on, ice screws and gear clipped to it, even your tools clipped pushed through gear loops, having a jacket that fits to a smaller waist and wider hips than most men have becomes a little less important!  

Do PHD do women's models of their clothing? I was noticing just the other day while in a discussion about sleeping bags that their sleeping bag ratings don't seem to take into account differences between men and women. I'm not sure if they think these differences just don't exist if they just hadn't thought about it, or even don't expect to sell bags to women?!

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Jadey 15:27 Sat
In reply to TobyA:

I think the latter. A year ago I was enraged trying to find a top notch winter belay jacket for women and checked all the key brands and f those that did winter belay jackets I couldn't find a single one for women. They all did them for men however. So I contacted PhD who made a big play on their website about doing bespoke gear presumably at a hefty premium. Turns out....only for men. So I'll never touch a PhD product. I have no time for brands who discriminate against women. The ones who dont are the good Scandinavian brands and Mammut. Arcteryx also now have raised their game although back then they were guilty of it a bit too. I just stick to the brands that dont discriminate (but that rules out all the british ones) but the competitions thing intensely annoys me and jottnar definitely have form in this area. 

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kirsten 15:58 Sat
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

There was at least a sample version of the Citadel jacket for women which you could buy for a while.. quite a few years ago now though...

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kirsten 16:02 Sat
In reply to Jadey:

PHD claim to be unisex, which is a joke as by the time you size up to fasten ie a jacket around your hips, it's ridiculously big around the waist/ arm holes / arms.  That makes something like a gilet rather useless. (and i'm not even particularly curvy). I've raised the issue with them before but they're not interested in doing anything other than they've always done.

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TobyA 16:58 Sat
In reply to kirsten:

When I've written reviews of sleeping bags here before, particularly in the case of a Lightwave bag, in the attached forum thread lots of people just came on and said "buy PHD, they're much better". Now I've never used a PHD bag or clothing, so I don't really know, but when I pointed out that PHD weren't using the same EN rating system as everyone else (and they didn't differentiate for women's physiology), so you couldn't really compare their bags' warmth with those of other brands, various people told me I should trust their rating, because - you know - they're the best.

I don't mean to really knock PHD, more their fanboys (note the boys), but I wonder if anyone is going to support them on this rather important issue that you and and Jadey have raised?!

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TobyA 17:02 Sat
In reply to kirsten:

> PHD claim to be unisex, which is a joke as by the time you size up to fasten ie a jacket around your hips, it's ridiculously big around the waist/ arm holes / arms. 

I distinctly remember my partner wearing my Patagonia DAS parka for walks in the snow when we live in Finland, because she could fit our at the time youngest child inside it when he was on her front in one of those cloth baby sling! I think she wore it when heavily pregnant too - like you say not really designed to fit a woman's shape!

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galpinos 20:18 Sat
In reply to TobyA:

The original DAS always looked like it wasn't designed to fit anyone apart from Yvon himself. Short and boxy.......

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TobyA 20:01 Sun
In reply to galpinos:

I bought mine in 2001 I think, it covers my bum fine! Maybe I'm the same shape as the great man then!?

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Damo 22:15 Sun
In reply to Jadey:

> ... I have no time for brands who discriminate against women.

They're just gear companies, not taxpayer-funded government services. No one can dictate what they should sell. No company has to cater to everyone.

If a market is truly there and they won't cater for it then their competitors will capitalise on that and they'll go broke.

If they produce something that doesn't sell they'll go broke.

Jottnar stuffed up with their comp prize, yes, and their 'conquer' tagline always annoyed me, and I think their gear is overpriced. So I avoid them. But I don't claim they 'discriminate' against my financial position or my consideration of appropriate language. I just don't buy their stuff. When they started they didn't stock XL, their limited range did not accommodate my 6'7" frame, which was probably their way of dealing with the economic realities of retail. So I ignored them and they lost a couple of thousand dollars of my business. We all survived.

A private company's production being dictated by social policy is straight out of 20th century communism - an unmitigated disaster.

I wouldn't normally put forward market values over social equity, and I can understand that this pisses you off, but decrying it as 'discrimination' is inaccurate, unfair and diminishes instances of genuine discrimination. It's just a bloody jacket, ffs. Save your anger for your politicians.

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planetmarshall 00:10 Mon
In reply to TobyA:

> I don't mean to really knock PHD, more their fanboys (note the boys), but I wonder if anyone is going to support them on this rather important issue that you and and Jadey have raised?!

I know Adele Pennington has been a regular user of their gear for a number of years.

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geordiepie 16:21 Mon
In reply to Jadey:

>  I have no time for brands who discriminate against women.

What about brands that "discriminate" against men? Mrs geordiepie buys yoga stuff from the two companies below.....they don't make gear for men and both explicity state their clothing is for women

https://www.sweatybetty.com/

https://www.dharmabums.co.uk/

The Jottnar competition thing was bit clumsy given that they do women's alternatives but suggesting that brands who don't offer equal choice are discriminating is a tad far fetched.

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Clare Dean 10:09 Tue
In reply to UKC Articles:

Of course there is always Ebay....     

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