UKC

For the past 5 months, we've been working tirelessly to make sure this year's festival is the best yet. From adding additional tickets, such as a self-rescue course, to finding the tastiest food for Saturday night - we were so psyched to start sharing our plans with you. However, a major challenge this year has been festival insurance. Despite having had cover for three years, alongside rigorous safety procedures and policies in place, no company felt they could insure this year's festival. Going ahead without insurance was not an option.

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In reply to UKC Gear:

Alternatively, attend a pinnacle club meet and save yourself £100+.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

But the Pinnacle Club requires people to be competent trad leaders already; the WTF provides support for people who haven't done any trad or are still learning to lead.

There's obviously a fair amount of overlap (I know various Pinnacle members have attended the festival as leaders in the past and I'm sure there'll be some this year), but it's not just a fancy meet.

In reply to slab_happy:

Absolutely. I’ve been to a couple and even £100+ is excellent value for what you get. It’s an amazing atmosphere and I don’t think there’s anything else quite like it in the UK (which is probably why it sold out in 3 minutes last year). It must be bloody hard work to organise though and I feel for them; I hope they manage to get something sorted.

(The first year I went my leader was from Pinnacle. She has been climbing for as long as I’ve been alive and I felt incredibly lucky to have her. The second year it was another very experienced woman who also works as instructor and again I felt really lucky as she was brilliant - I’ve since had another day’s instruction from her and have more planned.)

In reply to Presley Whippet:

You're like a ray of sunshine on every Trad festival announced. Looking forward to your first comment on next year's Arcteryx Lakes meet.

In reply to slab_happy:

Youve nailed the key difference there slabby.

One focus of WTF is skills sharing and confidence building from experienced leaders with less experienced learners, whether they're making the transition from indoor wall to rock, from seconding to leading, or from sport to trad.
 
The similarity with the Pinnacle Club is that no-one who comes along on a meet is left out. You don't have to come with a pre-arranged climbing partner, the meet coordinator will sort out someone for you to climb with.

However therein lies the key difference. Precisely because you could be paired up to climb with someone completely unknown, the club has to be as confident as we can be that all our members and prospective members are a safe and competent pair of hands, as there's no supervision, we just go climbing.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

Given the fact all your comments regarding anything positive people do within the world of climbing are ultimately negative - and somewhat generic - I've just copied and pasted my response from the Big Mountain Weekend thread a month or two ago and made it applicable to the following post:

I'd like to offer a shout to Ellie, Charlie, Hetty and Gilly, who rather than sit behind their keyboard writing cynical remarks online has actually gone out to organise an event that introduces people to the outdoors, encourages people to explore an area, encourage best practise, and most of all - have fun. If that isn't enough, she's managed to achieve this whilst being heavily pregnant (she's due next week).

Still, big up to the man that can nay-say online - where would we be without him...

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

<gossip> Which of the organizers is preggers? </gossip>

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

I don't know where to start with this one Rob. 

There is the press release which is a thinly veiled plea along the lines of "I have messed up my business plan, please bail me out" 

There is the profiteering from a service adequately provided by volunteers. 

There is the whole Disneyfication of the outdoors. 

There is the creep towards a pay to climb culture that events like this promote. Forget bolted belays on obscure Scottish cliffs, this is the real thin end of the wedge threatening climbing.

There is the consequential threat to access.

There is the overcrowding of crags/areas during these events. 

I find the whole concept of climbing festivals rather bizarre. I go climbing to avoid crowds, otherwise I would join the crowds on the football terraces. 

So, yes, I will continue to nay say. 

In reply to planetmarshall:

Oops, should really have looked close at that - this is how rumours start!!

Just to clarify: it was most definitely Katy Whittaker (organiser of the Big Mountain Weekend) that was pregnant - nobody else!!! Apparently my generic catch-all response to festival nay-sayers may need adjusting to allow for the all the non-child bearing event organisers out there...

In reply to Presley Whippet:

And yet here we go...

I, like many, appreciated their openness, honesty, and candour. Given that they have a loyal following, it also seems like a mark of respect to your audience to keep them in the loop, which they have done. Yes, they've had something of a rollercoaster, but have found a solution and are working around it. 

I think you're vastly overestimating how much the organisers make here, if they make anything at all. These people are doing it because they love climbing and want to give something back. They must be doing something right too, because people - myself included - volunteer their time to help out at the festival. 

Look at it another way: diversification. Maybe you'd feel a little safer + happier if climbing was still the exclusive preserve of white, middle-aged men? This may come across as harsh, but open your eyes: ever noticed that everyone looks quite similar?!

You've lost me here, you've taken two and two and made two thousand. You pay to go to the climbing wall, yes - that's ok? You tend not to when you visit the crag, barring pay and display parking, a few crags on Southern Sandstone, and that crag everyone got quite annoyed about in Cheddar a few whiles back. Am I missing a pay to climb epidemic, or are you actually just seeing what you want to?

There's no doubt that there is an issue regarding increased numbers when it comes to both access and conservation, but were we to educate these new climbers somehow, through - say - an event that brought together experienced climbers and beginners, maybe they'd be able to share their collective experiences and encourage responsible use of the outdoors.

I think I've covered this within the message above, but aside from that the organisers of the WTF seek to spread the load by sending people out to a range of crags. Given that they're a nice bunch of people I'm pretty sure they'd establish a good rapport with anyone else at the crag, hence they'd be able to sort any potential issues out pretty quickly. 

Yes, it's pretty clear you feel that way, and yet here we are...

On that note, might I request that you refrain from posting such messages again. I don't think I'm alone in saying they're tiresome and you're simply banging the drum without even a modicum of appreciation or empathy that all of this isn't about you. Yes, you don't like festivals/events - we get that - but some people do, so maybe try to respect/understand the reasoning behind that.

In reply to UKC Gear:

Are the insurance brokers up north really this terrible?! First the BMC struggling with theirs and now this. Who do they use?! 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

Maybe not everything is about you.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

Christ on a bike.  You're a f*cking dementor aren't you?

In reply to Presley Whippet:

You won't be bothering us then - hurrah!

In reply to Presley Whippet:

I can highly recommend you continue exploring the various aspects of your bedroom, quiety, and 'ck off posting generic negativity everywhere. Creating an envionment in which women can make their first moves onto real rock in a safe environment* with experienced climbers, without any of the macho bullshit or mollycoddling I suspect often comes with climbing with men as a novice, is far preferable to people escaping their local wall and getting out on rock without the first clue of ethics, style, history or tradition, treating the crag like an extension of the local wall and 'cking it up for everyone, or worse killing themselves through ignorance.

Don't like crowds? Great, no one is forcing you to mingle with them. There are plenty of neglected crags even in the Eastern Peak for you to explore that weekend. The crags are for everyone. They're not your personal playground.

* - 'rock climbing is a dangerous activity, etc etc etc'.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

(Off-Topic but if we ever meet remind me to buy you a pint)

My better half was super keen about this when I mentioned it to her (wants to learn how to trad climb but not sure I should teach her), but then realised she is away on the dates. Hopefully next year!

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Yes, this is a discussion forum after all

The world of commerce is harsh, those attempting to monetise their pastime need to remember that. 

There is a trap here, please do not fall into it  

The pale, male and stale thing is suffered by most sports, climbing is no different there. 

Increasing participation in the sport is generally something promoted by those with a vested interest;shops, guides, journalists rather than participants

It doesn't take a great stretch of the imagination to see the day when you are prevented access to the crag because you are not part of the Ark Hag Gonia Fax gritfest TM and not wearing the commemorative "complimentary" t shirt and wristband included with your registration bundle

Hmm, Foredale Quarry, lost due to experienced climbers making money out of beginners, others are under threat. Some land owners specifically state no commercial groups. A climbing festival at the wrong venue could easily cost the community a crag. 

Again, careful Rob, this is a discussion forum. It is within your gift to restrict the posting of those with whom you disagree. 

What would that make you? 

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Whilst he's perhaps viewable as a curmudgeon because he's taking issue with what he sees as commercialisation of the outdoors, could you please point me to the posts where he's been racist so I can understand this paragraph a little better?

Also WTF is just about the whitest festival going so I'm not quite sure I follow how his suggestion of just turning up to a Pinnacle Club meeting is guided by his uncomfort around black people. 

He's not the only one mate. 

In reply to Presley Whippet:

My god, I thought it was depressing watching The Virtues (amazing tv by the way and actually pretty amusing in places) but reading your posts is way more depressing.  Shall the rest of the world stop climbing (or doing any other form of outdoor activity) then so you can go soloing all on your own without any risk of you even having to see another person let alone be within 100m of them.  The outdoors is not there just for you and there are plenty of places I am sure you can go and be miserable by yourself.

The WTF has clearly been a huge success in the past and I am sure the people who run it do so at huge expense in time and effort - I certainly would not relish doing what they are doing.  I cannot imagine even at the cost they are now proposing that they are in it to make money - and it is a real shame that insurance seems to have gotten stupid at the moment (thinking mainly about the BMC).  Accept that some people actually do things altruistically to help others and aren't just self absorbed, miserable and presumably lonely.

Good luck to the WTF organisers and I hope the event is a huge success, really well attended and gets lots of women hooked on climbing for years to come.

In reply to FreshSlate:

I am not sure what you are getting at here.  I see not accusation of racism in Rob's post.  Rob is simply making the point that traditionally climbing was the preserve of white, middle-aged men (with some obvious notable exceptions) - this is a statement of fact that climbing was traditionally lacking in diversity.  Things have moved on somewhat and now climbing is much more diverse, albeit with more that can be done.  WTF is attempting to further improve inclusivity and diversity with respect to women's involvement - this is nothing different to many other attempts to improve female participation in sport.

The issue of racial diversity in the outdoors has been well documented and researched.  It is something that people are looking at and trying to address.  However, I see no connection to the above and certainly do not understand why you have now introduced a racial element into the discussion.  I think you are the one now who is adding two and two to make two thousand. 

In reply to tjdodd:

He's implying that Presley is uncomfortable with diversity where he says "Maybe you'd feel a little safer + happier if climbing was still the exclusive preserve of white, middle-aged men? ". 

Could you please explain why you would feel unsafe or unhappy around non-white people? 

I've quoted where race was introduced to the discussion twice now. Do keep up. 

In reply to FreshSlate:

You really are twisting that to make it sound racist.  I don't want to put words into Rob's mouth but feel he needs defending here.  He is simply saying Presley would prefer to go back to the old days when climbing was the preserve of a few (who happened to be white, middle-aged men).  Given Presley's posts I think this is a pretty reasonable assumption to make - I would go further and would say that Presley actually would prefer no-one else climbed but themself.

In reply to tjdodd:

I'm quoting his words. It's not twisting it where people don't even need to go to the effort of scrolling up. My request to Rob and now you is genuine. If there's proof that Presley feels this way then it would honestly help me to understand where the two of you are coming from. I'm genuinely not familiar with Presley's posting history but if he's going to be called a bigot I want to see the evidence. 

In reply to FreshSlate:

If you bothered to read my post you would see that I am saying no-one is making any connection to racism.  It is you that has introduced racism into the discussion. 

I am not sure why you are referring to Presley's posting history either.  I am simply referring to posts in this thread.

In reply to tjdodd:

The first time race was raised was in Rob Greenwood's post at 18.29. I didn't post in this thread until 22.46, it's not a subjective point. 

Well in that case please elucidate where Presley said he felt less safe around any of: non-white people, women and/or people of different ages.

I'm just not seeing it in this thread but maybe you can help me?

In reply to FreshSlate:

Where does one purchase popcorn at this time of night...? 

FFS It's a WTF festival. 

In reply to Snyggapa:

I'm going to defend his right to suggest joining a women's climbing club over a £100+ one time event to climb at Stanage. If you can afford both, good for you as it sounds like great atmosphere. Not sure where the other stuff came from which is the question I've asked. 

In reply to FreshSlate:

Thanks for raising that, it did sit uncomfortably but I thought raising it would be going off topic. 

In reply to UKC Gear:

I have absolutely zero doubt (although if I'm wrong, I'll hold my hands up), that every person even remotely criticising this festival is male. Its not for you; wind your neck in!

In reply to Presley Whippet:

What a wondrously bleak view. Maybe increasing participation - or diversity (which is fundamentally what I was focussing on) - is just a sign of empathy from both inside and out of a given minority, that one particular type of person (i.e. white men, of a given class) might find it easier to get into than someone who comes from a different background. For instance, I'm not a woman, but I can understand and appreciate why it might be more challenging to get into climbing were I to be a woman. The same goes for ethnic minorities. If you think UKC - or even the WTF - are going to wildly profiteer from this you're greatly mistaken. Even if we did, is that so wrong - we're not exactly Jeff Bezos!!

Going back to my original question - which was indeed a question (hence the question mark) - about whether you'd feel more comfortable if climbing was still the exclusive preserve of white, middle-aged men, this was merely to challenge your own viewpoint, which does appear to be entrenched somewhat. The Women's Trad Fest clearly addresses the 'male' aspect of this, maybe in time we'll see other festivals/events crop up for other minority groups. If they do, we should be celebrating them!

Following on from that note, I was pondering why this very same debate had never occurred around something such as the Jonathan Conville Memorial Trust courses within Scotland and the Alps. They provide a fundamentally similar service, with the only difference being that it's a charity, it focusses on Scottish Winter + the Alps, and it's obviously open to both men and women. Should we be damning this too, or is that ok - if so, why?

Do I think you're a racist? No, clearly not - or at least I hope not. Do I think you're somewhat misguided in your judgements about such events, yes - I do.

The good news on this front is that the dislikes do a lot of the talking. Yes, there is discussion, but given the backlash against your views it's a discussion that actually reflects very well on the majority of our readership, and very badly on you.

In reply to FreshSlate:

In addition to my comments within the above post, I'll leave this here for you to ponder:

"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Well that clarifies nothing about your position. Presley never criticised the event for being women-centric and even gave another female specific alternative so why did you start asking if he had a problem with diversification?

Is it his name? How old he is? or something he said? You talk about deeply entrenched views that you think he has. What are those views? 

You've not answered any of these questions. All I want is an straight honest answer but feel free to dodge again.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Maybe it is the term "festival" which sticks in the craw of the more puritanical among us. I've absolutely nothing against this particular event (it sounds excellent), but my immediate first reaction to anything called a "festival" is one of irritated suspicion.

Anyway, at least they didn't call it "womfest" to go with such horrors as "blocfest".

And WTF is a fantastic acronym!

In reply to FreshSlate:

What position are you looking for me to clarify exactly? It seems you're putting so many words into my mouth that I've got to try and justify your toxic assumptions, rather than justify my own opinions - hence the straw man.

The position as I see it, and have said as much elsewhere, is that climbing is fundamentally a sport that favours the well-to-do white male - I think it's fair to say that's a fact.

When it comes to Prestley, it's clear that the root of his problem is with events/festivals as a whole - that's his deeply entrenched view - not something more sinister as you're tying to spin it. I don't think he's got a 'gender agenda' - or that he's racist - because he's made his thoughts known about both the WTF and the Big Mountain Weekend. His issue - once-again - is with the events.

As to why I brought up diversification, it because of there seemed to be a certain lack of empathy/awareness that some groups may find it more difficult to get into climbing than others, and that events such as this might provide the pathway. As such, I was largely asking him to question his own views/preconceptions of events and why they might actually be a good thing.

In reply to Snyggapa:

Anyone on for a Fun Festival of Soloing?

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

There we go. Do you not think your assumptions of Presley may have also been toxic? It's clear that you've softened your language a great deal and taken him out of the frame.

You have gone from asking Presley if he feels less safe and less happy with the diversification of the sport to 'there seeming to be a certain lack of empathy'. 

I still don't agree with the assumption that anyone criticising an event for it's commercialisation of climbing has some underlying bigoted reason for doing so (in this case lacking empathy for women) but I appreciate you toning down your language and trying to provide an explanation.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Commenting without fail on every topic about a group of people enjoying climbing in an organised event and slagging it off is toxic. The lack of empathy is simply for people who are doing him/you no harm and enjoy such an event. Its simply unnecessary; if its not for him/you then why feel the need to belittle it? 

I cannot have that this is emblematic of a wider commercialisation of climbing, sorry. If you only knew the hours that go into this you'd think again. 

In reply to spidermonkey09:

Like many others I often hope to find the crag quiet as climbing outside somewhere tranquil is an escape from some of the pressures of modern life for me.

But, I don't feel the need to criticise a festival which might make a crag busier for a number of reasons - one, because I can easily avoid it if I wish (other crags are available) and two, because having received so much from climbing myself, it feels pretty churlish to want to keep it just for myself and a few others. Like most things, what you end up with is a balance - I don't want the crags to be overrun, but I do want others to share the joy I get from climbing myself. I reckon things are just about right these days.

Also, as a middle aged white guy who went to Uni, climbing was really accessible and easy to get into. When I started out, I had a macho view of climbing, and I'd say that by modern standards I'd consider my views then as pretty sexist and possibly misogynistic. My chagrin at being burnt off by a female partner, amongst other things, catalysed some soul searching, and these days I think both myself and climbing are in a much better place for having been exposed to the diversity which events like WTF seek to encourage.

So, thanks Helen wherever you are for being a role model for me back in the day, and best of luck to the amazing WTF organisers in making this years festival a huge success.

In reply to spidermonkey09:

I honestly hope everyone who goes to the event has a great time. Some of the potential issues are the same as the issues of any uni group or commercial activity provider etc. taking a large number of people to a given crag.

I've always been on the go and have fun providing that you don't ruin anyone else's fun side of the argument and I still am.

As long as they are kind and courteous to other people at the crag, clean up after themselves and don't carry a false sense of entitlement because someone has paid £100+ to climb then it all sounds great to me. 

If you have read any university meet thread you will find these points being robustly made and also an equal number of people telling them to just go have fun. As far as I'm aware WTF have a good track record and long may that continue.

Lots of good points made in favour of the event and how it stacks with rather than is done instead of joining a club or going out with a friend.

A lot of people have mentioned climbers being predominately middle aged people. It strikes me as a little odd as my impression is that most people start climbing around university age and not in their 40's and 50's. All these references to middle-aged people in this thread makes the hobby sound like a mid-life crisis and not something that lots of people enjoy throughout their life right into old age. 

I don't see life-long hobbies as being a problem myself. I still see lots of people below middle age climbing and a fair few older crag dogs too. If anything people often go missing in the middle of their lives whilst children take a front seat to their hobbies.

Obviously the economics of life mean that people have more money, personal transport etc. above a certain age. So unless you have supportive parents with the means lots of young people may struggle to get into any hobby with costs.

Anyway, after that tangent I wanted to ask posters why they brought age up and if they feel age diversity is a real problem in climbing?

In reply to FreshSlate:

Well, one of the really nice things about climbing is it brings people together of different ages, and unlike many sports, climbers do often carry on till they drop.

In fact, one of the really cool photos from last years WTF was of an older climber obviously having a great time surrounded by younger compatriots. So no, I don't think age diversity is a problem in climbing, and I think events like the WTF probably help prevent it from becoming so by introducing younger climbers at the start of their career to inspiring, experienced climbers whom they can relate to.

In reply to FreshSlate:

No-one has said that climbers are predominately middle aged people.  To reiterate and apologies to the WTF for this thread going way off track (and I accept some blame in this).

Traditionally, climbing was dominated by white, middle aged men.  This is going back some years but was how it was.  None of us are saying this is still true today.

WTF aims, alongside having fun climbing, to introduce women to climbing.  Most of us think this is good and is a great way to further improve diversity in climbing.

From what I gather, WTF is very different to the Pinnacle club (which brings together experienced women climbers).  Whilst many Pinnacle club members support WTF, the two things are very different and both should be supported.

For whatever reason, Presley does not like the WTF and has made his views very clear on this.  This started by him saying women should go to a Pinnacle club meeting instead and save themselves £100.  However, as pointed out above, the two things are very different and serve different purposes.  Apologies to the WTF and Pinnacle Club for any misrepresentation here but hopefully this is the gist of it.

As a result of Presley's negative comments on the WTF, a couple of posters (myself included) have suggested that if Presley does not want women introduced to climbing through the WTF then perhaps it is because he would prefer to go back to the old days when climbing was predominately done by white, middle aged men.  In effect we are saying that Presley wants climbing to go back to the stone age and be the exclusive preserve of a small number of people - Presley has made it abundantly clear that they do not want more people climbing.  The use of white has no racist connotations in this context, it is simply a statement of fact of the make up of climbers back in time to make a point about going back to the stone age.

I, and I am sure others will agree, think that climbing is getting more and more diverse.  I certainly think the gender diversity is pretty good from the indoor and outdoor climbers I see but that is not to say more cannot be done.  I still think climbing is predominately white and more can be done in this area (but quite a lot has been said over the past couple of years about racial diversity in the outdoors overall).

In terms of age, I agree that climbing is now very diverse.  I was out bouldering at the weekend and saw two young families introducing their kids to climbing.  I also saw plenty of student aged climbers and probably middle aged people was the fewest.  When I boulder indoors there is a full mix from kids (who show up pretty much everyone else) through to people in their sixties (who typically show me up).

So, in summary, I think climbing is pretty diverse and is very inclusive (this inclusivity, whatever your level, is one of the reasons I really like it).  However, we need to continue to promote and encourage greater diversity and inclusivity which includes things like the WTF.  What most of us do not want is to go back to the old days when it was the preserve of white, middle aged men. This is why myself and others have been so passionate in our posts on this thread.

Right, that is the last I am saying on this.  Phew.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Where on earth do you climb? My local walls, especially bouldering walls, are full of women, many of them young and, sadly, many of them also much better than me these days.

Similarly, despite being a middle-aged, white male, I have probably done more than half my climbing in recent years with women. Last Sunday, while bouldering on my own I teamed up with a woman who was also on her own who showed me several new problems and tomorrow I will be climbing with a female friend. I've also climbed with several Pinnacle Club members down the years.

Perhaps you just need to expand your circle of friends and partners a bit  wider to escape your own 'pale, male and stale' bubble. There is no shortage of keen, committed and very capable women climbers out there

In reply to tjdodd:

Small point but I think a significant one. I don’t think it was ever ‘middle-aged’ men, I think they were young when they started and middle-aged by the time we noticed them. My dad was in this group and he was climbing at 17 as were most of his mates, many of whom became the names on the FA lists in the 50s, 60s and 70s. 

However it was very male and white and, with a few exceptions - Brown, Whillans - usually educated. The club system also helped maintain this demographic. 

Alan

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Rob lives in the Peak District as do I. I see plenty of women climbers but nowhere near half. It's a significantly smaller a minority of climbers of either gender that are BAME. this is mainly climbing outside, I rarely go to climbing walls.

In reply to TobyA:

I'd agree. I think that Trad climbing has a gender balance that is worse than climbing as a whole.

I always assumed that the (perceived?) barriers to entry to Trad climbing were higher and it was generally seen as dangerous. My understanding of the WTF was it attempts to brake down these barriers to encourage more women to do it.

This would seem to be an all round win. All those gym trained boulders get converted to Trad. Some go on to help keep crags clean, access rights open, and help ensure a great climbing scene in the UK.

If one wants to be a misandrist/misogynist and enjoy perfect solitude then the option to piss off to the Rhinogs remains!

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

I think others have answered your question, at least in part, but my reference was more in relation to trad.

Indoors is a different matter altogether, with my local wall - The Climbing Works - having in/around a 50/50 split. When you head outside things change a bit, insofar as there is a drop off. Bouldering and sport climbing fare better when it comes to this, but trad still has some way to go. Clearly events such as the WTF create further opportunities/pathways into it, so that's great to see.

When it comes to my own climbing partners, Penny - my wife  - is arguably the main person I've climbed with in recent years. Besides that I've climbed a lot with the likes of Katy Whittaker and Mina Leslie Wujastyk, so inspirational women aren't in short supply!

Furthermore, I'm soon to be outnumbered within my own household, as Penny is due to give birth to our baby daughter any day now

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

This is exactly what I've been saying. It seems quite rare for someone to take up climbing in their middle-age. Sounds like that's been the case for a while. 

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Which makes it interesting to compare the demographics at indoor walls to the demographics at, say, Stanage Popular -- because the latter certainly skews more male and older (and very much whiter).

I've been on more than one Pinnacle meet where other climbers at a crag commented because they were startled/puzzled that there were suddenly so many women at the crag that day, even though that percentage would be entirely normal at an indoor wall.

I don't think anyone's disputing that! But it's still true that fewer women get into trad.

The way the WTF tickets sell out within minutes every year shows that both there are lots of women who want to start learning to trad climb, and also that there are many who feel more confident and welcome with the encouragement of a women-focused environment as they take their first steps into it.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Most of the over-50 climbers I meet at walls and crags are the ones who have been climbing since their teens and either paused or never stopped in the intervening years.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

That's me, and throughout all that time I have very often climbed with extremely capable women.  It doesn't seem to me to be a recent phenomenon at all.

In reply to Presley Whippet: 

Well, it must be quite a slow creep given how long white middle-aged men have been hiring guides.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I too am in that group, there's probably a lot of us about

Re diversity: I can't remember which year it was but certainly last millennium, probably late 80s or early 90s. Anyway, all of a sudden in that year there was a noticeable increase in the number of women trad climbers. Went from rare to common (but still well below 50%).

This was before sport became as separated as it is now, bolted hard routes were still given E6 6c, etc.

It's still quite rare to see non-white people climbing trad and I'm not aware of any non-white elite performers in the UK (no doubt numerous corrections will plummet down in response).

The only ones that come to mind (B team only I'm afraid - still way above punters like me ) are the Siddiqui brothers (?) and Trevor Messiah (?) who used to do a lot in Pembroke (and no doubt elsewhere).

Trad isn't yet anywhere near representative of the UK demographic, long way to go.

In reply to danm:

Well said Dan.  The need is clearly there or the festival wouldn't be so popular and sadly women are still way too under-represented in trad climbing. I even think having male leaders this year is maybe unwise as the position is always over-subscribed by women and having women led by women I think is one of the strengths of the festival. I like the aims and values.

https://www.womenstradfestival.co.uk/our-mission

On some of the other points where I don't think enough has been said:

I've been climbing a couple of times when WTF turned up and they were almost the perfect behaved group...small numbers (mainly 2s 3s and 4s) well led, well spread across the crag (with several different crags used each day to cut overcrowding),  friendly and respectful to other crag users, ethical (good style, not hogging classics, clearing litter left by others). Student groups have improved but are rarely this exemplory.

Before and after the climbing it is a festival at a venue with food and other stuff and as far as I can tell the fee just covers the costs and the admin for next year. There is no £100 saving to be made in a Pinnacle Club meet (the assertion is like the £350 million claim on the brexit bus). There is no commercial profit. I'm pretty sure the climbing leaders don't get paid nor do the camp volunteers (including a few men).

The best way to deal with the likes of Presley is to politely answer his faulty points. If he went and saw what is being done I think he would change his mind. 

In reply to UKC Gear:

Here we go again on the balancing of gender in the disciplines. I've a climbing wife and have plenty of female friends who do and yes, I know more blokes who trad climb than women. Should we be encouraging certain demographics into trad or whatever or just let people do what they want. I've said before that I've got a great diversity of partners, some of whom I've helped get started but the race, gender or back ground was nothing to do with helping them, just simply they expressed an interest and we were happy to get them out with us. Must we focus on demographics so much?

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

They are doing what people want as they are facilitating women who want to try climb outdoors as part of WTF. The event sold out faster than Glastonbury last year: within minutes of the ticket release. Its the critics who seem to me to be obsessed with demographics.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Why does it have anything to do with balancing gender? Can it not just be responding to an observation that there is a significant group who could go trad climbing and might want to go trad climbing. It appears that there is a cohort who spend time bemoaning the lack of traffic on classic trad routes and then when action is taken to encourage more people they suddenly take against it.

In the past I've hosted on the BMC international meet. There was nothing to stop foreign climbers coming over here anyway but encouraging them over is a good thing to do. I don't see any difference. Encouraging people and facilitating links and networks is a good thing.

If we stop encouraging people into trad climbing it will become an irrelevance.

In reply to FreshSlate:

There are exceptions though, Admiral Keith Lawder (Cornwall and Lundy pioneer and grandfather to Iain Peters of this parish) took up climbing in his 50s after retiring from the navy.

In reply to Brown:

Could the fest perhaps be open to all humans?

In reply to UKC Gear:

As several people have pointed out, even though participation by women and girls in climbing overall has increased, when it comes to trad we are still in the minority. To illustrate this, whenever I've been at the crag on a Pinnacle Club meet, or with a bunch of women friends climbing together, other climbers will invariably ask or comment that it must be a Pinnacle Club meet. In a friendly way, don't get me wrong.

How often, when you see a bunch of men climbing together, have you thought to yourself "Must be a Wayfarers meet..."? (although this no longer applies but you get my drift)

In reply to Offwidth:

I agree with you on both counts. Unless there's a shortage of female leaders it's counterproductive  to have male 'leaders' and female 'followers'. 

It sends out the wrong message, and reinforces the accepted norm where mixed sex climbing teams are dominated by the male climber (which I believe is more unrepresentative than simply the ratio of female to male climbers).

Unsurprisingly, a post about a women's event has attracted several ill-informed opinions from ignorant men... ...who'd have guessed? To pick on one:

In reply to FreshSlate:

I don't know where he gets this idea from?  I've been lucky enough to have been a leader at the two previous WTFs and have led BAME women on both occasions.

Furthermore, despite the name, it should be noted that men are not excluded from the festival.

In reply to Angry Bird:

That surprised me

In reply to Angry Bird:

I'd expect at least some BAME people even at a predominately white festival like WTF. There's a difference to the festival being a lot whiter than most other things called 'festivals' and there not being a single BAME person there. If you think there were more BAME people (proportionately) at WTF than the average music festival then go ahead and make that point but I don't think you do.

To be clear this was never a criticism of the event as you seem to think but rather a counter-point to those who think it's a silver bullet to all kinds of diversity issues in climbing. A £100+ camping weekend in Hathersage isn't going to do that and it's unreasonable to expect it to or to pretend that it is. 

In reply to FreshSlate:

So now you're saying participants at WTF are predominately white? No argument there... ...but that's rather different from your assertion that I challenged, "WTF is just about the whitest festival going."

No-one else is suggesting that this or any other stand alone event is a, "silver bullet to all kinds of diversity issues."

WTF isn't a £100+ camping weekend either - and it's clear that the increase in ticket prices compared to last year is due to changes in the insurer's attitude to, or assessment of, risk.

Now... ...do you have any further irrelevant comments you need to add about something that isn't even catering for you?

In reply to Angry Bird:

I stand by that statement. I even qualified it with 'just about', I'm sure there are whiter festivals that take place but not many. Do you actually disagree with that?

There are people on this thread who have suggested that this event will help wider diversification. No one used the words "silver bullet", granted. 

Well as you admit, it is this year and that's on the ticket alone. Forgetting all other costs it's a lot to spend on being introduced to sport unless you are fairly well off. I read this as part of the point of Presley's infamous Pinnacle Club suggestion, perhaps I'm too kind. 

Despite this comment I just want you to know that, for me, you're always free to talk about men's or BAME issues if you want. It's a free country and I'll never tell you to stick to your 'own kind'. 

In reply to Angry Bird:

Is it the WTF festival or a Kendrick Lamar concert? You decide. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmI44MDD-NH/

All of this is irrelevant and doesn't make it any less great for the women that go. Which is the point you should be making, not that there's 'actually a diverse range of people that go', or that I'm making out that it's whiter and more concentrated with well-to-do white women than it really is, because that's just not true. 

In reply to FreshSlate:

Are you saying it's whiter than other trad climbing festivals? If so, on what basis are you saying that?

If not, then it's not "just about the whitest festival going", is it.

"A trad climbing festival is whiter than a music festival" should really not be a surprise to anyone.

It's certainly an indication that the climbing community has a long long way to go as regards racial/ethnic diversity, but it doesn't mean that the WTF is not doing valuable stuff re: getting more women into climbing.

In reply to slab_happy:

No I didn't narrow it down to trad festivals. If we go well back... I responded to someone who said that a certain poster must have felt uncomfortable about the festival because of the diversification of the sport including for people not middle aged and non-white people. 

I replied that the WTF is extremely white (and as you rightly point out, climbing as a whole is too) so too many BAME people wasn't likely to be a factor in anyone's criticisms of it. 

I don't think it's any better or worse than climbing as a whole. I just didn't like the insinuation that this particular person was racist, sexist and ageist because they've got a track record of nay saying any increased participation in the sport.

I think not wanting more people out on the crags is a point of view that a person can have without being a bigot. You could reduce the numbers of white men climbing, therefore increasing the proportion represented by minorities, and this guy would delighted as he's more likely to find himself alone on a crag somewhere. 

Well now in quoting me you've expanded it to 'festival' in the wider sense so I'm still going to stand by that. The poster's issue was with the commercialisation and disneyfication of the sport i.e. whole idea that you have 'festivals' for climbing. 

I agree. 

Again, I absolutely agree.

Edit: I didn't dislike your post. I think you've been fair in your points.  

In reply to UKC Gear:

You know, if we needed *any* further evidence that the WTF is not just good, but necessary, then this thread (that's descended into blokes arguing about its merits) is it!

In reply to Deadeye:

There is a whole debate to have  about whether we should be trying to increase participation in outside climbing.

Similarly there's a debate about diversity in climbing and what (if anything) we should do about it.

My opinion is that there is no need to ensure that the climbing demographic mirrors the general population, but there is a need to ensure that no segments of the population have unreasonable (*) barriers to entry. To me it seems that the WTF is doing just that, which is fine by me.

* - some barriers to entry are reasonable. I don't think many of us would complain about poorer people not being able to go offshore powerboat racing. We accept that it's a rich person's sport/activity.

Ugh. I clicked on this to read some good news about the WTF, instead found myself reading some spite. Why do I do that?

Anyway, sounds like things are going well. Good luck WTfers x