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A question for route setters - Setting very hard routes?

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 Reach>Talent 08 Nov 2011
I've set a reasonable number of routes but I don't tend to set things that are vastly too hard for me to climb. Someone has just suggested that I may want to set a route to challenge a 'top climber' who will be paying a visit to the wall next week.

So any tips for setting a 'good' route for a chap who I'm lead to believe has redpointed 8c. The wall is about 8-9m high and vertical, we've got a reasonable selection of unpleasant crimps and the odd sloper?

 dunc56 08 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:
> I've set a reasonable number of routes but I don't tend to set things that are vastly too hard for me to climb. Someone has just suggested that I may want to set a route to challenge a 'top climber' who will be paying a visit to the wall next week.
>
> So any tips for setting a 'good' route for a chap who I'm lead to believe has redpointed 8c. The wall is about 8-9m high and vertical, we've got a reasonable selection of unpleasant crimps and the odd sloper?

Is that even possible ? No offence to your good self intended.
OP Reach>Talent 08 Nov 2011
In reply to dunc56:
That is what I'm wondering, the hardest thing on the wall is a horrid slightly slate-esque crimpy thing that probably goes at about 7a but most of that is down to pain factor rather than technical difficulty.

I'm interested in the idea but rather skeptical
 dread-i 08 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:
Rather than approaching it with: what holds should I use. How about approaching it along the lines of: how many holds can I miss out?

Four holds in 8m, would be a bit tricky for most people. You need to be more evil in your route setting, methinks.
OP Reach>Talent 08 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:
Unless anyone can come up with a better suggestion I'm off to buy a tin of this

http://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-anti-intruder-paint-black-1ltr/16822?_requestid=1026341
In reply to Reach>Talent:

Watch a video of an 8c route and try to extrapolate out moves from that?
In reply to Reach>Talent:

no chance. for an 8-9m vertical wall to have anything harder than 7b-ish it would have to be grim, grim grim and yer 8c red pointing man is just going to walk away.
 Monk 08 Nov 2011
In reply to dread-i:
> (In reply to mkean)
> Rather than approaching it with: what holds should I use. How about approaching it along the lines of: how many holds can I miss out?
>
> Four holds in 8m, would be a bit tricky for most people. You need to be more evil in your route setting, methinks.

Noooooooo!!!!! That's the very essence of poor route setting.

To the OP - in my experience, the best hard routes are always set by people who can climb them. I think it is possible to set routes a little above your current level (where you can see how a move would go, but lack the strength to do it), but when people set routes way above their level they (the routes) tend to climb very poorly.
 Monk 08 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:

By any chance, would that climber be Tim Emmett and the wall be in Ware?
myth 08 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent: Set a route then remove 1/3 of the holds
lanky_suction1 08 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:

When he turns up, ask him to set a hard route for you. Problem solved
 Ramblin dave 08 Nov 2011
In reply to myth: Or set a reasonably easy route with loads of holds, challenge the regular climbers to do it using as few holds as possible, then challenge him to do it with one fewer.
 Dave 88 08 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:

Surely you can get a hard route into 8 metres? Just two hard boulder problems linked together? Or does it not quite work that way?
 Lord_ash2000 08 Nov 2011
In reply to Monk:
> (In reply to dread-i)
> [...]
>
> Noooooooo!!!!! That's the very essence of poor route setting.
>
> To the OP - in my experience, the best hard routes are always set by people who can climb them. I think it is possible to set routes a little above your current level (where you can see how a move would go, but lack the strength to do it), but when people set routes way above their level they (the routes) tend to climb very poorly.



Very Very True. It's hard for anyone to set much beyond there own limit because they don't know if the moves work because they can't do them. I had this the other week in a small local comp with the hard routes set by not very good climbers. The results were most of them were easy and some were just impossible or had one impossible move in the middle, it was a joke.

And to the OP, I really wouldn't bother, it would be near impossble to set something of that grade on that kind of wall. If you're going to do it, set it more as a hard high ball boulder problem around V12-V13'ish. Which on a vertical wall would be sickening. Of course though nither you are I would have a clue how to do that, you much more so.
 ozbaker 08 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:
Im a fan of don't bother either (or at least don't loose any sleep over it).

I set on a short wall, and to get into the higher grades, you really need the stamina factor.

Instead, aim for quality?
Point him in the direction of routes you have set that are just awsome and put a grin on your face.

Just because someone climbs hard doesn't mean they don't appreciate simply kool climbing and inventive route setting!

IMHO if they don't, there a douch.

Enjoy it man and look forward to the imput, hopefully it will be positive.

Oz.
OP Reach>Talent 09 Nov 2011
In reply to Monk:
By any chance, would that climber be Tim Emmett and the wall be in Ware?

I'm saying nothing.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

Although I'm not really qualified to say as I'm not a route setter, as a consumer of routes I'd urge you not to set anything that's harder than your top redpoint level.

It's very apparent when route setters are setting routes they can't climb - the moves just don't feel right.

I guess to create something that is as hard as possible while still broadly realistic you could set 2 boulder problems on top of each other at your top boulder grade. That should stack up to around 8m.
 Jubjab 09 Nov 2011
In reply to RockSteady: The other possibility is to create an all-points off huge dyno from poor holds to another poor hold. With such a short wall you'd probably have to make it the final move to avoid ground fall risk.

Note that this route probably would suck, and there is no way for you to know if the move is easy / hard / impossible for him.
 tmawer 09 Nov 2011
In reply to Jubjab:

Could you increase the number of moves, and hence difficulty, by difficult approaching moves from the side i.e a tough traverse to start?
 winhill 09 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:
> (In reply to Monk)
> By any chance, would that climber be Tim Emmett and the wall be in Ware?
>
> I'm saying nothing.

Is there a wall in Ware? Ware, Herts?
 winhill 09 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:

have you seen Total Wipeout? where fists poke out of the wall and punch people?

difficult to achieve without carving up the wall but you could hand out boxing gloves on poles to punters to try to take them out.

http://eclipseuk.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/olly-21.jpg
 Monk 09 Nov 2011
In reply to winhill:
> (In reply to mkean)
> [...]
>
> Is there a wall in Ware? Ware, Herts?

Yep, but it's a small staff wall for GSK. I've never actually been to it, but lots of my friends have used it (I grew up in the area).
 Tru 09 Nov 2011
In reply to Monk:

And Mkean's profile states he works for a pharmaceutical company. The question is why in hell is Tim Emmett visiting Glaxo in Ware and more importantly can I come along?

I live in Ware and happen to know a few Chemists from Glaxo.
 Monk 09 Nov 2011
In reply to Tru:

Tim Emmett is giving a talk on the 15th November at the Allenbury's social club. I believe it is open to the public. There is even a premier post about it somewhere... http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=480118
OP Reach>Talent 09 Nov 2011
In reply to Tru:
The wall is part of the Allenbury's Sports & Social Club (ASSC) on the GSK site. The ASSC gets in regular speakers, we've had kayakers, mountaineers and cyclists in the last year or so. The talk is open to anyone, but I'm not 100% on the access for the wall.
 Tru 09 Nov 2011
In reply to Reach>Talent:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=480118&new=6629974#x6629974

Just spotted this, I'll book my tickets tonight if there are any left. From past experience to use the sports centre at least one of you has to work for Glaxo.

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