UKC

Great wall features and height. The setting is there for a good wall. But I cannot understand their approach to running it. No monthly membership...£10 for 2 hours. So replicating the frequency of visits to my local (Glasgow) walls, I'd be spending £120 a week while £38 per month is what I pay at the GCC. Even adding a monthly ticket to the TCA is cheaper but that gives me two excellent bouldering walls with great training facilities and good cafes and gear shops.

No wonder in my visits to Aberdeen and its wall, there is a derth of community. Its nothing like my home walls or every other wall I've visited. Clearly Covid put a dent in use but other places are up and running and busier than before, cashing in on the Olympic and Free Solo effect 

In reply to Flinticus: you are not alone. I don’t suppose you could write to them via their email address covering the same points? I’ve never actually been limited by the 2 hrs as it’s never been busy enough that I haven’t been able to stay on but not having a monthly pass does mean I’m loath to go more than once a week as the cost builds up. A monthly membership would give them money in the bank and, in my case, they would have made money. I’ve hardly been for nearly 2 months what with Covid, Christmas and such good weather I’ve been outside or on my own board. So they have had £30 in 2 months when they could have had 2x whatever their monthly fee would be. I don’t understand it when other walls do it. My real worry is that I can’t see how they can keep going financially and we could be left with nothing (except the very limited RGU wall). So any help in trying to change their approach greatly appreciated.

In reply to Flinticus:

I've lived in Aberdeen for 6 years now, and I've never felt a sense of community at TX (compared to what I've experienced in other walls). I really don't know what's going down there at moment. They are closed on Monday and Tuesday - weird because Tuesday is often a busy night for walls wherever I've lived.

Staff often friendly, but feel like they're just going through motions. Little enthusiasm. I suspect it stems from management, maybe they  don't understand climbing culture or just don't care. Or maybe the focus is simply on the skate park or the cash cow of kids parties. It's a shame because as you suggest, it's got the potential to be a cracking wall. I know quite a few local climbers who have decided not to go anymore. I went to RGU a few weeks ago on a Tuesday night and it was rammed - so obviously they're loosing business to a far inferior wall. (although setting at RGU has improved a lot).

In reply to scoth: yes, all quite strange. I agree that there seems to be  a lack of understanding. The only way we are going to change things is by repeatedly bringing the issues to the attention of the management there so if you were able to email a summary of your points to 
info@transition-extreme.com that might help. I’m about to do that myself re my points above. Cheers

In reply to Flinticus:

It seems to be getting worse I think lately! Last time I was there for bouldering I was asked to leave at the end of my one hour's bouldering. Not sure why they're persisting with the capacity thing, but trying to work with it doesn't help. Deciding to go at a later time that had lots of spaces on their booking system normally results in anything but.

Never seen any real scene there in the time I've been going. On the whole, I feel very much the odd one out and I don't fit in at all!

I've emailed before about the pricing structure, but got a couple of paragraphs of management talk back, expressing that they have no option to adjust it. I get the impression that they aren't aiming for a climbing customer base.

I might still utilise it sporadically for the campus board and routes, but I won't be going regularly anymore. Thankfully there's so much climbing on the coast to go at! A 120 mile round trip to Dundee is a cheaper option too.

In reply to jack_44:

It’s almost as if they are trying to run it down……

Open question what happens if AFC get permission for their new stadium on the site and Transitions footprint (as I thought I read somewhere) is needed? Who owns the land, when it was set up the Council provided the land to transition; but was it transferred, long lease at peanuts, charitable trust to revert to council if no longer used, or other?

I know there was the suggestion that alternative premises would be provided for the displaced facilities, but if you were cynical it would be in both AFC and Aberdeens Councils interests if they didn’t jointly or separately have to pay for a replacement wall, and the easiest argument is having numbers demonstrating lack of demand.

All speculation of course………..as I don’t know why it would be in Transition managements interests to play ball, so on that front such a hypothesis could just be regarded as conspiracy bollocks.
 

In which case the easiest reason for current performance is that they are what they appear; absolutely clueless at running a wall.

In reply to ScraggyGoat: I think the ground is a long lease for peanuts but not sure. Hard to know about the proposals though this article and the picture with it still has TX there https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-59179485 Might not be the way it would turn out. Monstrous idea anyway and how to screw up your beach with a massive concrete structure in one easy lesson. 

I do find it hard to believe the centre management or board would want to run it down and you would think they would want to find ways to up the numbers. What really puzzles me is that monthly passes/rates give a more secure income than relying on pay as you go. You make the money even when folk don’t turn up. It’s the model so loved by fitness centres and gyms. The Tuesday night closure is also bizarre as it always seemed one of the busiest sessions. I could go on .......

In reply to Flinticus:

There's at least one thread a year on this.

TX really is a missed opportunity. I suspect that because they are ran as a charity rather than a business that they are not run very well. Anyone who spends any time there can clearly tell it's not managed well and not by climbers. According to the publicly available financials, they have a CEO costing them over £70k a year. Seems the council or various oil companies bail them out every year. There just doesn't seem to be any interest in improving it as I guess there's no real incentive.

At the moment they are using covid as an excuse to be shut Monday and Tuesday and then open at 1200 during the rest of the week. They are clinging on to the booking system and still have no membership or season ticket options. Other privately run walls seem to be getting back to normal.

It's a great shame when you consider that Aberdeen has such a rich climbing heritage, a full guidebook of climbing within 2 hours drive, favourable eastern weather and on the doorstep of the Cairngorms. I was at Kendal wall for the first time just after Christmas and was really impressed. A short trip to Dundee to see what has been done with a much more restrictive space is also eye opening.

Unfortunately can't see any chance of it improving soon. Shame.

In reply to Flinticus:

Unfortunately Transitions seeming determination to alienate it's customer base have been ongoing for a long time, the current campaign is just the latest round. 

The lack of pricing options is even more ridiculous given they offer 10 session passes for the bmx park, but won't offer it for the climbing wall for some reason.

On the plus side RGU seem to be upping their game in response.  £4 for a session, no time limit, no pre-booking slots (except for bouldering) and routes are pretty good atm.  Apparently they are aiming for a 6 week cycle for setting as well (so lets call that 3 months) which would be good!

I think the climbing part of transition is seen as a neccesary burden for the coveted "extreme" tagline rather than something they want to make a success of.  It's a shame, as it's a good size, good height and has heaps of potential as a wall

In reply to Flinticus:

Transition Extreme pops up here every few months and has done for years. 

There current mode of operation seems totally unsustainable. It's almost like they are purposely trying to alienate their customer base. Not having monthly passes is beyond daft. For years I used to always buy the 6 month pass for the winter but didn't the past couple of years due to Covid restrictions. I can't see how they are covering costs at the moment, there restrictions on numbers and booking system makes little sense given the legal crowds in other public areas such as pubs, clubs, stadiums etc.

I was trying to go down once or twice a week this winter but it is prohibitively expensive to go twice really as that is about £90 a month to do that. So instead I spent some money on a home board and now rarely go as its just not worthwhile.

Its a real shame as Transition should be thriving. Its got a captive audience as there is little to no competition and a large climbing community. It has been badly managed for years with very little done to try and accommodate the plentiful constructive criticism sent it's way.  

I will continue to use Transition occasionally but given I have now built a home board it will not be nearly as often. I am very sceptical of them changing how they run the place and I am fed up of how poor it is, it really should be much better than it is. If someone else opened up a climbing wall similar to TCA I imagine they could do really well at the expense of Transition, unfortunately Aberdeen business rates are prohibitively expensive so we will have to make do with Transition until it no longer exists. 

In reply to Flinticus:

*£120 a month

Can't seem to edit my post

In reply to Gawyllie:

I'll apologise in advance and this is not meant to be a dig at your post.

Yeah, I'm not sure that it's necessarily about being a charity as in my experience many of them have, by necessity, innovative management and remarkable ways of making ends meet in often difficult financial situations. They are businesses, just a different type. It's certainly tough times for so many businesses and all too easy to assume things about their operations. Many have had to cut staff and this seems to be with TX so less people and more to do for those there. In my own experience any enterprise works best when management and users are able to work together and there is a shared understanding of issues. Hard to do and restricted by what a business can and wants to divulge.

Looking at the  accounts that are available and what I know of the operation from previous involvement I note they were in a pretty parlous state when the previous CEO left and that must be hard to recover from, particularly with Covid. I don't think, but might be wrong, that the Council and Oil Company monies are bail outs. The Oil company money has, in the past, been used to run the Extreme Academy for disadvantaged young people, there may be some cross financing as those groups use the facilities but the bulk of it certainly used to pay for the youth workers. I also have it in my mind (though am happy to be corrected) that the council money is a repayable loan, possibly to keep them afloat - but that is conjecture. If its a loan even from a council it needs servicing and repaying. I'd be surprised if there's no incentive to improve as it is the jobs of an albeit much smaller staff group. And I would want to keep a healthy salary like that coming in .

Sorry, this has become a bit of a defence of them and I'm sure they could do that way better themselves. There are definitely opportunities to improve things. I get the 12 o'clock start as a week day morning is like grave but don't get the lack of Monday and Tuesday evenings (particularly the latter). If you want people to visit/spend twice a week you need to be open often enough for folk to do that. Monday or Tuesday evening lets you get another visit in later that week. As I've said elsewhere I just can't fathom the lack of 10 passes or Monthly options as these would be guaranteed income. OK they maybe cant be at the rate I would like but once you get into something that does reduce costs as a frequent user it helps. Plus frequent users pull their mates in.

The bottom line for me is it seems to be a use it or lose it scenario. A bit like a microcosm of Union Street closures, you don't miss a lot of the shops until they have gone. it would be easy to sit back and see it founder so I've tried to capture the points in this and previous threads and have written to Ross Blackadder (CEO) and Shelley MacKenzie (Centre Manager?). I've tried not to be too destructive and to offer some of the solutions that people have posted. I've also acknowledged the efforts they have made including the route setting they have bought in and the opening up of on the hour slots (as opposed to only every 2 hours for leading) - which seems to allow more folk in. I'm keen to work with them to boost the experience and their income and I'm sure others would be too. I'll see what comes back. Fingers crossed.

In reply to Flinticus:

Transition Extreme

• too expensive
• Dumb planning and construction of the bouldering wall with a vertical section next to the 30 degree overhang means large sections can't be used while the other is in use.
• Last time I went in 2020  the routesetting was reachy and rubbish compared to Avertical World in Dundee, I saw on social media that the routesetters from Dundee have been setting in Aberdeen so I assume this has improved?
• The dumb planning of the "training area" where the campus boards face the circuit board meaning its not safe to use both at the same time.
• The old route setters seemed to delight in setting routes in similar colours right next to one another which were hard to tell apart under the gloomy lighting, must have been a nightmare for the colour blind.
• The gloomy lighting
• The lack of ventilation, they didn't even follow the guidance to open the doors to let some fresh air in when they were allowed to open after the 2020 lockdown
• Too tall, it opened in 2007 a year after the Climbing Works in Sheffield showed that the future of indoor climbing was bouldering
• Complete lack of social media posting to let users know when areas of the wall were closed for routesetting or the auotbelays were away getting serviced. Would have been nice to know before I drove 30 miles. It looks like this is finally starting to improve..
• Oh, did I say its too expensive?

I seriously think the best thing that could happen for climbing in Aberdeen is for Transition Extreme to get knocked down as part of the beachfront redevelopment opening up the local market for a private operator to set up something decent.

In reply to Flinticus:

With disclaimer that I moved out of Aberdeen about 5 years ago - but things sound like they've got worse.  The issues at the time were:

1) The centre is not run by climbers - the charity and youth element was the focus. 

2) As a result the management tended to invest in things they thought were fun or aligned to this mission (e.g. the underused high ropes course) rather than the wall

3) When they did reinvest in the wall it was done badly as there was no climber steering the approach and key decisions were made by non-climbers.

4) The investment in the wall was disproportionate to the entry fees - climbers were essentially subsidising other parts of the centre.  One major gripe was route setting was also not properly invested in - a few more holds and regular professional setting of the lead walls would make a big difference. This caused people to stop coming making the cash problem worse.

5) Any time a centre manager tried to improve things they were frustrated by senior management's disinterest / choices and quit.

6) Management made odd business choices generally - for example the cafe was hidden away upstairs rather than being made the heart of the centre (as per modern walls) hence no 'passing trade'.

7) The centre was probably built at exactly the wrong time - just before modern wall design took off hence the limited bouldering and failure to capitalise on the potential of the space. Unfortunately due to the reasons above they never really tried to fix this.  What bouldering there was got dominated by keen climbers (who ended up doing most of the setting) making it intimidating for beginners. 

All of the above is a shame as Aberdeen is in theory a perfect city for a busy buzzing climbing wall (outdoorsy, full of geologists and engineers, lots of local rock, long dark cold winters). Nothing will change until someone is in charge who actually cares about the quality of the climbing offering...

In reply to Neil Morrison:

I'll admit that I was perhaps being a bit cynical in my post however this is borne out of frustration. I do use it but not as much as I would like to mainly for the reasons stated in multiple posts above. I also prefer being outside. I likely would have had a monthly membership from about November had it been available. Monday or Tuesday before 1200 would also be my preferred time and would easily have doubled my attendance in recent months.

When covid hit I still had a few visits left on my pass. This was suspended until late last year when I received an email basically trying to pressure me to 'donate' what was left of them as they are a charity. It really came across to me that rather than focus on creating a sustainable business model around Aberdeen's large climbing community they ask their users for charity. I doubt many other climbing walls in the UK done this. I believe Dundee were pretty much back to normal in terms of membership options for most of last year as their business model likely depends on offering value to the local climbing community.

I mentioned Kendal wall before also. We had never been before and there was no booking service. just a one off registration then turn up. Walk in to an excellent shop and cafe in the reception area. Had that been my local wall I'd have bought rockshoes given they had better selection than all the shops in Aberdeen put together.

I also really can't fathom why they have a CEO costing £70-80k per year but maybe that's my ignorance and that's the going rate for climbing wall managers.

I will say that the staff in there are friendly and as you day there has been a lot of route setting recently.

The place undoubtedly got off to a bad start in the design process. A small bouldering area given the footprint and the cafe being hidden away upstairs while there is huge empty reception area. They've tried to improve this in recent times with the seating downstairs and removing the 'rock-a-ton' thing to make way for the training area.

Good luck with your response.